The next Hotfix?

[ScribeEzra]

Cord/Vast/Whoever, are you able to provide any pointers as to whether or not your going to be making any of the suggested CREEP changes in the next hotfix, Inc heals returned to rank etc etc, while you kind of stemmed the bloodflow with the last hotfix for creeps , the patient is still seriously wounded and in need of care and attention.

[Tirn]

Cord/Vast/Whoever, are you able to provide any pointers as to whether or not your going to be making any of the suggested CREEP changes in the next hotfix, Inc heals returned to rank etc etc, while you kind of stemmed the bloodflow with the last hotfix for creeps , the patient is still seriously wounded and in need of care and attention.

‘I thought you were cancelling your vip sub , deleting your characters and giving up ? I’m confused here , if what you have said is true then why would you care ? I’m not defending SSG here I just find what you say hard to understand .

[Saruman_Of_Numbers]

Freeps are getting facerolled right now by the massive creep hordes, shuffles reign supreme.

Next changes should be with the landscape and population balancing dynamics (Removing shuffles/backdoors, Buffing ranger/troll session play, fixing osgilliath buffs and shuffle)

Balance isn't terrible atm, maybe add inc healing corruptions or add a small amount of inc heal to armour passives, that's it. Anything more than that would require massive in-depth skill-by-skill buffs/nerfs.

[Christian.S]

Freeps are getting facerolled right now by the massive creep hordes, shuffles reign supreme.

Next changes should be with the landscape and population balancing dynamics (Removing shuffles/backdoors, Buffing ranger/troll session play, fixing osgilliath buffs and shuffle)

Balance isn't terrible atm, maybe add inc healing corruptions or add a small amount of inc heal to armour passives, that's it. Anything more than that would require massive in-depth skill-by-skill buffs/nerfs.

Freeps getting rolled by massive creep hordes? Isn't that more a barometer of how bad the freep grind has become vs. creeps actually being viable,let alone having balance?

All those Burgs you aren't seeing atm are likely adding to creep numbers by playing their wargs.

Turbine nor SSG seem to understand adjusting creep balance needs to occur concurrent with freep content releases not after the fact. The interim between the two,is the main contributor to creeps vanishing in droves.


Osgiliath and pvp imo should be capital crime to have in the same thought.

[ScribeEzra]

‘I thought you were cancelling your vip sub , deleting your characters and giving up ? I’m confused here , if what you have said is true then why would you care ? I’m not defending SSG here I just find what you say hard to understand .

I've cancelled VIP, I'll see what they do with game before I make any final decision, but cancelling vip was my 1st step. Understand that?. Merry Creepsmass btw.

[Spilo]

Freeps are getting facerolled right now by the massive creep hordes, shuffles reign supreme.

Next changes should be with the landscape and population balancing dynamics (Removing shuffles/backdoors, Buffing ranger/troll session play, fixing osgilliath buffs and shuffle)

Balance isn't terrible atm, maybe add inc healing corruptions or add a small amount of inc heal to armour passives, that's it. Anything more than that would require massive in-depth skill-by-skill buffs/nerfs.

It's almost as if there needs to be an easier gearing system for Freeps.

[Saruman_Of_Numbers]

It's almost as if there needs to be an easier gearing system for Freeps.

Plenty of geared freeps sitting at GV...

... healing minstrels in war-speech
... hunters who spam rain of arrows/split shot
... loremasters who don't know what SI is
... etc

there's also loads of fully geared raiders who would love to come out and pvp, but don't.

Why?

Because shuffle. Because zerg.

Because the moment you show up with a small group you get rolled by a legion defilers/spiders/wargs/BAs
and the moment you show up with a large group, the creeps sit in grams 1-shots, only to zerg out the moment the fraid disbands, or alternatively make an even larger group to roll you with.

Do you really think there will ever be a time when the free-to-play side wont outnumber the VIP pay-to-play side?

[Giliodor]

Plenty of geared freeps sitting at GV...

Do you really think there will ever be a time when the free-to-play side wont outnumber the VIP pay-to-play side?

That's kind of the whole point Spilo is making. Of course freeps would virtually never outnumber creeps, but at least they might be more capable of standing up to the vast amount of creeps if it was easier for freeps to reach an acceptable level of gear. That is to say: make pvp gear free and available to everyone, make it better than pve gear (in the Moors only), and you'll see more freeps in the Moors.

That said, I highly doubt that an abundance of players on either side is much of an issue on any server that is not Arkenstone.

[Spilo]

Plenty of geared freeps sitting at GV...

... healing minstrels in war-speech
... hunters who spam rain of arrows/split shot
... loremasters who don't know what SI is
... etc

there's also loads of fully geared raiders who would love to come out and pvp, but don't.

Why?

Because shuffle. Because zerg.

Because the moment you show up with a small group you get rolled by a legion defilers/spiders/wargs/BAs
and the moment you show up with a large group, the creeps sit in grams 1-shots, only to zerg out the moment the fraid disbands, or alternatively make an even larger group to roll you with.

Do you really think there will ever be a time when the free-to-play side wont outnumber the VIP pay-to-play side?

There's plenty of unskilled players on Creepside as well. The fact that my suggestions would directly lead to more Freeps in the Moors is a point ignored, apparently. I have other suggestions for PvP as well (removing half of Creep maps, Zerging penalties, removing backdoors and creating bigger 1-shot radii), but why bother if people don't even want the bonus of quality, easy to get Freep gear?

[Saruman_Of_Numbers]

but why bother if people don't even want the bonus of quality, easy to get Freep gear?

Everyone agrees that there should be decent pvp-attainable gear, I've said as much in the past. Making it somehow better or required is another story...


Realistically though, what kind of resources will SSG spend? A full rework of freep gearing in the moors? Reaver class update? Dream on.
SSG barely got a 12 man raid out after over a month of testing and a week delay after live release. Their flagship 6 man instance is still impossible and broken.

Realistically, the most straightforward way to improve moors pop dynamic is to remove BDs (or make out-of-combat only), and buff session play in some simple way (increase damage/morale and add strong heal debuffs)

Is it the "Best" way? No. Is it the easiest way? Yes.


If you keep asking the Devs for the sky in pvp, they will just ignore the whole thing because it takes too much time away from their precious Yule cosmetics and pie delivery quests.

[Spilo]

Everyone agrees that there should be decent pvp-attainable gear, I've said as much in the past. Making it somehow better or required is another story...


Realistically though, what kind of resources will SSG spend? A full rework of freep gearing in the moors? Reaver class update? Dream on.
SSG barely got a 12 man raid out after over a month of testing and a week delay after live release. Their flagship 6 man instance is still impossible and broken.

Realistically, the most straightforward way to improve moors pop dynamic is to remove BDs (or make out-of-combat only), and buff session play in some simple way (increase damage/morale and add strong heal debuffs)

Is it the "Best" way? No. Is it the easiest way? Yes.


If you keep asking the Devs for the sky in pvp, they will just ignore the whole thing because it takes too much time away from their precious Yule cosmetics and pie delivery quests.

I propose a basic system that requires zero hotfixes. SSG has three options: 1. Hotfixes that will never address PvP balance until the end of time 2. Enforcing a few basic changes like required PvP gear and landscape adjustments (that won't require hotfixing) or 3. Delete PvMP.

[Snowlock]

There's plenty of unskilled players on Creepside as well. The fact that my suggestions would directly lead to more Freeps in the Moors is a point ignored, apparently. I have other suggestions for PvP as well (removing half of Creep maps, Zerging penalties, removing backdoors and creating bigger 1-shot radii), but why bother if people don't even want the bonus of quality, easy to get Freep gear?

Because the type of players that is going to want free gear is the solo zergling that you want to get rid of. We want to earn our gear. It's one of the main reasons we play.

If they removed the backdoors to keeps, put hot spots back, removed maps and buffed march to replace it, let Trolls and Rangers earn points, blocked out of combat rez skills, put EC and OC back where they were, put the NPCS back at TA, and made creeps quest for skills again, increased rank gates, put KB deeds and rating back the way it used to be, put stars back in, and unbanned all the pvp'ers Sapience banned in a blanket amnesty,

You'd get plenty of freeps back. And plenty of creeps too. You would have a nearly instant revitalized pvp community.

I sometimes think the reason they won't do this is because they fear the lag that would result.

[Spilo]

Because the type of players that is going to want free gear is the solo zergling that you want to get rid of. We want to earn our gear. It's one of the main reasons we play.

If they removed the backdoors to keeps, put hot spots back, removed maps and buffed march to replace it, let Trolls and Rangers earn points, blocked out of combat rez skills, put EC and OC back where they were, put the NPCS back at TA, and made creeps quest for skills again, increased rank gates, put KB deeds and rating back the way it used to be, put stars back in, and unbanned all the pvp'ers Sapience banned in a blanket amnesty,

You'd get plenty of freeps back. And plenty of creeps too. You would have a nearly instant revitalized pvp community.

I sometimes think the reason they won't do this is because they fear the lag that would result.

Maybe. But you'd be hard-pressed to find more than a handful of people who'd be willing to:

1. Grind out another half-dozen tiers for each virtues

2. Grind armor

3. Grind Jewelry

4. Grind Empowerment Scrolls

5. Grind Crystals

for a PvP experience that may be sub-optimal.


I really agree with all of this except for the whole gearing thing. It's a shame we can't agree on that. I don't want a sense of accomplishment for working for my PvP gear if it takes me months of mind-numbing grind to get it, and neither do 90% of the population, which is why 90% of the Freeps are undergeared, and why it's impossible to balance creeps, because do you balance Creeps around the Raid-geared or the Quest-geared? I know of dozens of my friends who don't PvP anymore because they hate working for months for a sub-par PvP experience. You and I both know that gear alone doesn't fix PvP, but even if PvP was perfect, it wouldn't bring back people. You have to fix the gearing problem and PvP problem simultaneously, or "balance" will never be achieved.

If I could log on, and, after leveling, instantly have gear that I would be able to PvP with, I would get VIP back, and probably grind out the leveling for a lot of other toons just to see how they were in the Moors. I know dozens of others who would too.

[Snowlock]

Maybe. But you'd be hard-pressed to find more than a handful of people who'd be willing to:

1. Grind out another half-dozen tiers for each virtues

2. Grind armor

3. Grind Jewelry

4. Grind Empowerment Scrolls

5. Grind Crystals.

Already being done. There's lots of these players.

[Saruman_Of_Numbers]

I propose a basic system that requires zero hotfixes.

Yep, What you're asking for is an entire update's worth of reworked and re-balanced gear systems with some sort of moors-specific mechanic that would require pvp gear and render PVE gear that people have worked on meaningless. Good luck getting devs to spend that much time and not completely botch it.

Already being done. There's lots of these players.

Indeed Snowlock. What needs to be addressed are the reasons those players are not playing freepside, even though they would like to. Shuffling and Zerging, my friends.

limit/punish shuffling/zerging as quickly and simply as possible with the lowest possibility of f*k ups and lowest amount of dev time spent.


-Remove backdoor incombat use
-Make trolls/rangers mean something to actually be able to turn the tide. or change the Outnumbered buff, or something.


And Spilo, no one is saying PVP can't give decent rewards at GV barter for semi-decent gear... Just that there are bigger issues at hand that can be solved in much less time/effort

[Snowlock]

And Spilo, no one is saying PVP can't give decent rewards at GV barter for semi-decent gear... Just that there are bigger issues at hand that can be solved in much less time/effort

This is well stated. While I'm against audacity gear because a) I don't want dev time devoted to a failed system that causes lag and b) it's a gate against returning high ranked players, it's not like I don't want rewards for pvp. I was perfectly fine with a rank gated reward system of gear. Likely Delving based, though it wouldn't have to be.

But as he's saying here, there's lower hanging fruit. You're arguing the Osgilliath pvp map all over again (instead of same sh/t differen't map, it'd be same map same sh/t). If you don't fix the underlying issue (in this case problems with the layout and the lazy gameplay it encourages), then there's no point to whatever "balance" you achieve. It's still going to be used in the same broken way, going backward and forward with a zerg herd at a keep back door. Who cares how balanced that is.

[Spilo]

Already being done. There's lots of these players.

Players who will be out to PvP in a month or so, just in time for the next Update to roll through not long afterward. That sort of grind cycle is what made LOTRO unappealing for me, especially when the Grind Cycle wasn't a few weeks, but a few months.

Yep, What you're asking for is an entire update's worth of reworked and re-balanced gear systems with some sort of moors-specific mechanic that would require pvp gear and render PVE gear that people have worked on meaningless. Good luck getting devs to spend that much time and not completely botch it.




Indeed Snowlock. What needs to be addressed are the reasons those players are not playing freepside, even though they would like to. Shuffling and Zerging, my friends.

limit/punish shuffling/zerging as quickly and simply as possible with the lowest possibility of f*k ups and lowest amount of dev time spent.


-Remove backdoor incombat use
-Make trolls/rangers mean something to actually be able to turn the tide. or change the Outnumbered buff, or something.


And Spilo, no one is saying PVP can't give decent rewards at GV barter for semi-decent gear... Just that there are bigger issues at hand that can be solved in much less time/effort

Perhaps, but as I've already said, until that's done, then hotfixes and buffs and nerfs every single update will continue to be demanded and expected. Until you take the time to remove variables, they'll still be there.

I agree that shuffling and zerging sucks, but Creeps deal with the same issues. So why is it that Creeps still have numbers? Could it have something to do with LOTRO not requiring grind every update for Creeps to PvP?

I certainly agree that issues like zerging penalties and backdoor stuff should be addressed primarily, but pretending that grind on Freepside isn't a huge barrier to enter PvP is playing ignorant. As I already said, until PvP gear is reinstated, you're going to have a Creep outnumbered Moors. Also, Outnumbered buffs are band-aids, and is overall a horrible system.

This is well stated. While I'm against audacity gear because a) I don't want dev time devoted to a failed system that causes lag and b) it's a gate against returning high ranked players, it's not like I don't want rewards for pvp. I was perfectly fine with a rank gated reward system of gear. Likely Delving based, though it wouldn't have to be.

But as he's saying here, there's lower hanging fruit. You're arguing the Osgilliath pvp map all over again (instead of same sh/t differen't map, it'd be same map same sh/t). If you don't fix the underlying issue (in this case problems with the layout and the lazy gameplay it encourages), then there's no point to whatever "balance" you achieve. It's still going to be used in the same broken way, going backward and forward with a zerg herd at a keep back door. Who cares how balanced that is.

Causes lag by bringing back players? And your point B is irrelevant, because it's already been stated innumerable times that the gear would be essentially free.

I'd say you're being equally ignorant. I agree with all of you points regarding underlying problems- I'd even agree that they have priority over gearing issues. But you're still going to have a dead Moors, because nobody wants RNG, P2W, mind-numbing grind for a PvP experience. You'll have a decent PvP experience from the outside, but you still won't have the Freeps to fill it.

[Saruman_Of_Numbers]

That sort of grind cycle..

when the Grind Cycle wasn't...

...grind on Freepside....

L-E-V-E-L-S-C-A-L-I-N-G

unless, of course, you NEED the best gear... but that's not what we're talking about right now

[Sylence]

L-E-V-E-L-S-C-A-L-I-N-G

unless, of course, you NEED the best gear... but that's not what we're talking about right now

Because level-scaling didn't lead to broken results, right? Holy smokes.

[Saruman_Of_Numbers]

Because level-scaling didn't lead to broken results, right? Holy smokes.

What are you talking about?

If you want to can get a char to lvl 100-105 via blessing/aria of valar and scale up to livable stats which are not as good as 115 but are still significant, esp for buffing/support classes.

The system is already in place and requires no extra work or potential botching from the devs.

[Snowlock]

Players who will be out to PvP in a month or so, just in time for the next Update to roll through not long afterward. That sort of grind cycle is what made LOTRO unappealing for me, especially when the Grind Cycle wasn't a few weeks, but a few months.

Dunno what to tell you. Maybe there are other games you'd like more, and I say that without vindictiveness or sarcasm. You just seem to want this game to be something it's not.

Causes lag by bringing back players? And your point B is irrelevant, because it's already been stated innumerable times that the gear would be essentially free.

It's NEVER been stated gear would be free. You guys would say the gear should be free. I'm not seeing any SSG guys going, hmmmm give stuff away for free? Sounds like a sound business decision.

I'd say you're being equally ignorant. I agree with all of you points regarding underlying problems- I'd even agree that they have priority over gearing issues. But you're still going to have a dead Moors, because nobody wants RNG, P2W, mind-numbing grind for a PvP experience. You'll have a decent PvP experience from the outside, but you still won't have the Freeps to fill it.

Well, you don't have history on your side. Look, you seem to be saying, "lets attract more players to pvp by doing x,y,z". Never worked that way. Don't chase pvper's from pve land. Make the meta game an engaging experience, and they'll come to you and then just let human nature do the rest.

We differ I guess in what "enganging experience" means. To me it means that the framework works correctly.. Keeps work like keeps, NPCS are there for a reason, performance is acceptable (which is a completely different ball of wax), and there exists this actual idea of winners and losers beyond the 1v1. The first time I ever came to the moors was this exclamatory broadcast on GLFF that said, "Freeps are needed in the moors to beat back the hordes of Sauron!!" or something like that. And I was like "holy sh/t there's a war going on and I wasn't invited?!?!" And I got there, and was thrust into the largest group I'd ever been in, a 24 man raid, the leader was shouting orders, not just "shoot that" but it actually required different levels of cooperation between healing and CC, dps, scouting, tanking, and oil was pouring on us, and the sky turned that cool green color, and we besieged TR. I was in a war. Bring that back, and you'll have all the freeps you can handle.

This is not a sport. I saw Vastin say that "duels were too short" and I just winced. He's right in that combat is too quick, but it's not supposed to be about duels. This is the War of the Ring. We should be fighting a war, not a duel. It was set up to be a war. Then all that duct tape and bondo came in to change its nature.

[Spardaa]

Slightly off topic but do any of you guys do any phrasing at all?

[Giliodor]

Dunno what to tell you. Maybe there are other games you'd like more, and I say that without vindictiveness or sarcasm. You just seem to want this game to be something it's not.



It's NEVER been stated gear would be free. You guys would say the gear should be free. I'm not seeing any SSG guys going, hmmmm give stuff away for free? Sounds like a sound business decision.



Well, you don't have history on your side. Look, you seem to be saying, "lets attract more players to pvp by doing x,y,z". Never worked that way. Don't chase pvper's from pve land. Make the meta game an engaging experience, and they'll come to you and then just let human nature do the rest.

Guess quote wars aren't dumb anymore? Also, calling something "free" when freeps have to pay a sub or 20MC for 6 hours of playtime... Yeah, good thing we can count on your ability to think logically.

What are you talking about?

If you want to can get a char to lvl 100-105 via blessing/aria of valar and scale up to livable stats which are not as good as 115 but are still significant, esp for buffing/support classes.

The system is already in place and requires no extra work or potential botching from the devs.

I can tell that you have good intentions, but honestly... Why can't you see that some of the stuff you propose is simply terrible for the game? It does not take a lot of effort to design one set of PvMP only gear, and doing so would make it much easier for the devs to keep PvMP balanced in future updates. The kind of solutions that you're trying to come up with are, frankly, much more complicated than what's being proposed.

[Saruman_Of_Numbers]

"lets attract more players to pvp by doing x,y,z".

But the focus-group charts show that x, y, and jay-z are a hit among the millennial generation!

We should immediately implement PvMP participation trophies and hug sessions after every defeat.

Rangers of Esteldin / Karajan Fellarrows will welcome recently defeated players with ''I am here if you need to talk''

[Snowlock]

Guess quote wars aren't dumb anymore? Also, calling something "free" when freeps have to pay a sub or 20MC for 6 hours of playtime... Yeah, good thing we can count on your ability to think logically.



I can tell that you have good intentions, but honestly... Why can't you see that some of the stuff you propose is simply terrible for the game? It does not take a lot of effort to design one set of PvMP only gear, and doing so would make it much easier for the devs to keep PvMP balanced in future updates. The kind of solutions that you're trying to come up with are, frankly, much more complicated than what's being proposed.

Be on topic, troll, or go slink away.

But the focus-group charts show that x, y, and jay-z are a hit among the millennial generation!

We should immediately implement PvMP participation trophies and hug sessions after every defeat.

Rangers of Esteldin / Karajan Fellarrows will welcome recently defeated players with ''I am here if you need to talk''

Heh. I think there's a bit of that at work here. I think a lot of concern for sportsmanship is with newer players. They prefer to think of LOTRO pvmp has "matches" or sport. PVMP isn't supposed to be sport, it's supposed to be war. War's never fair.