Stance swap -- Still big ?

[tharkun3]

Switching from precision to strength. Do you do it and if so how often. Or did that go the way of the red line.

[Wolf2x]

I usually switch to Strength stance 2 seconds before popping Rapid Fire, and back to Precision 2 seconds after RF expires.

Timing is very important though; You want to make sure that using Strength stance wouldn't cause delay in your DPS rotation. Otherwise, the ranged damage bonus you gain from Strength stance would possibly get cancelled out by the 1 barrage you lost while switching stances, which would render switching stances useless.

Focus consuming skills have a very short post-usage delay from skill animation (about 0.6s), I would recommend trying to fit stance swap inside those half seconds. It takes some practice but once you get enough experience with it, you can go back and forth between stances without causing any unnecessary delay in your rotation.

I hope these help, cheers!

[DKenny]

I think the precision stance bonuses and ILI legacies outperform the strength stance benefit. I stay in precision stance.

[egistrem]

has anyone noticed that when switching stances to strength it is instantaneous but when switching back to precision there's a bit of a delay/sometimes it doesn't take?

[RicoFTW]

Not traiting Rapid fire, it's dps loss so no stance swapping either.

[Glefinthor]

Not traiting Rapid fire, it's dps loss so no stance swapping either.

I can understand that stance swapping may cause a loss in DPS because of aforementioned reasons, but why would Rapid Fire cause a loss in DPS? It's 10 sec that you don't have to waste time (And pens and barrages) on an induction skill or two to get your focus back up. I'm still getting end-game hunter under my fingers, so I'd like to hear your reasoning.

[RicoFTW]

I can understand that stance swapping may cause a loss in DPS because of aforementioned reasons, but why would Rapid Fire cause a loss in DPS? It's 10 sec that you don't have to waste time (And pens and barrages) on an induction skill or two to get your focus back up. I'm still getting end-game hunter under my fingers, so I'd like to hear your reasoning.

Because to be able to trait Rapid Fire you need to sacrifice 4 points in Bodkin arrows which results in about 10 ish % dps loss.

[Ethrildar]

Yes, stance swapping is "still" (?) big. Those who are saying otherwise here are simply not knowledgeable on the matter.

Hit 9 focus, Strength stance, burn all focus, at last skill before 0 focus, RF, resume. 2 seconds before RF ends you'll be back at 9 focus at which point you swap back to Precision giving you a couple of seconds to burn some of that focus prior to the gain from Precision stance.

It takes literally seconds to test the difference between Strength and Precision, and for someone traiting properly and with all of the LI buffs, Strength stance has a noticeable damage output increase. This doesn't even factor in that clearly non-crit (aka the majority of) skills, Precision stance's buff is meaningless.

[chrisoxmo]

Because to be able to trait Rapid Fire you need to sacrifice 4 points in Bodkin arrows which results in about 10 ish % dps loss.

i wonder since when 4 points in bodkin arrows can increase DPS by 10%. Firstly, you need 10 trait points to have bodkin arrow at max rank for 10% mitigation bypass... Then,10% increased ranged dmg is far from increasing DPS by 10%. You need to review back your calculations.

[RicoFTW]

i wonder since when 4 points in bodkin arrows can increase DPS by 10%. Firstly, you need 10 trait points to have bodkin arrow at max rank for 10% mitigation bypass... Then,10% increased ranged dmg is far from increasing DPS by 10%. You need to review back your calculations.

I don't need to review anything. I can see my CA every day. Bodkin arrows trait is great ever since there are some mitigations left on mobs after LM/RK debuffs (considering champs are not in the raid since rend didn't scale up properly).

[Osglinthor]

I don't need to review anything. I can see my CA every day. Bodkin arrows trait is great ever since there are some mitigations left on mobs after LM/RK debuffs (considering champs are not in the raid since rend didn't scale up properly).

Having bodkin is good,but in raid probably better to not fully trait them as fire mitigations are almost if not always 0%.Only time it might not be 0% is during tar downtime,I didnt bother to test it fully.

In 3/6 man is 20% DPS increase.

[Eldarond_EU]

You can have both Rapid Fire and 3/5 in Bodkin Arrows. Without Rapid Fire you will barely ever hit barrages with triple hidden buff.

[Ethrildar]

I can see my CA every day. Bodkin arrows trait is great ever since there are some mitigations left on mobs after LM/RK debuffs (considering champs are not in the raid since rend didn't scale up properly).

Bodkin Arrows is a great trait, but the 6-10 points needed to get anything out of it negates any DPS increase you're gaining, this much is fairly obvious. With regards to "I can see my CA every day", well evidently if you're traiting one way and not the other, yeah, you're seeing your CA be lower than it could be? But I guess I can't argue with the fact that you do indeed see your CA, that much is true.

[RicoFTW]

Bodkin Arrows is a great trait, but the 6-10 points needed to get anything out of it negates any DPS increase you're gaining, this much is fairly obvious. With regards to "I can see my CA every day", well evidently if you're traiting one way and not the other, yeah, you're seeing your CA be lower than it could be? But I guess I can't argue with the fact that you do indeed see your CA, that much is true.

Feel free to post your RF parses in the new raid. So far I haven't seen an RF hunter doing more dps than 5/5 Bodkin hunter of me or my friends.

[Ethrildar]

Feel free to post your RF parses in the new raid. So far I haven't seen an RF hunter doing more dps than 5/5 Bodkin hunter of me or my friends.

My current maximum over the fight ~5min on 1st boss is 167,000 DPS. What's yours? I run Rapid Fire, as much as I hate the skill. No doubt yours will hover around 60-70k and you'll claim that anything over that is literally impossible, unfortunately the highest screenshot I bothered to take was somewhere around 140k iirc, on a different run. Sometimes DPS is as low as 80k if RNG is poor or the bosses fidget around too long with shields up (poor tanks or unlucky Cappy).

Frankly though, if you think you get better results with A over B, then go with A.

[RicoFTW]

My current maximum over the fight ~5min on 1st boss is 167,000 DPS. What's yours? I run Rapid Fire, as much as I hate the skill. No doubt yours will hover around 60-70k and you'll claim that anything over that is literally impossible, unfortunately the highest screenshot I bothered to take was somewhere around 140k iirc, on a different run. Sometimes DPS is as low as 80k if RNG is poor or the bosses fidget around too long with shields up (poor tanks or unlucky Cappy).

Frankly though, if you think you get better results with A over B, then go with A.

Mine is way above 60-70k, thank you. Nowhere I said anything higher than that is impossible so stop putting your words into my mouth. Without a screen with group setup you can claim whatever numbers you want. If you will provide a screen then surely those numbers are possible with 2 cappies, 2 burgs or whatever.

[canyouaddcolour]

In regards to the above discussion... Posting parses is sadly relatively pointless. LOTRO sucks in some ways because parses are so dependent on your support and your raid group's abilities even before we get into crit RNG. Bodkin Arrows' usefulness is minimal if your targets armour is regularly near or at 0% (IE good buffing from your Support classes + RKs), but if they're not particularly good at the job, or reliable, and you're not coordinated then all of a sudden Bodkin Arrows is much more useful because the further you are away from 0% Mits the more useful it is.

I'm sure I could be better at Hunter, but it's really hard to know who to take seriously -- I've done 140k+ over 5 min parse, too, but that was under specific circumstances with luck, 2 Burgs, Captain was perfect with Aggro, Oathies resets, etc. When I'm in our "learning" groups my parses are significantly lower.

I like WoW/FFXIV where I can compare parses, circumstances a lot easier. With the huge focus on support and other people for your own DPS in LOTRO your personal DPS can range to a crazy amount depending on group makeup. That doesn't mean people whom aren't parsing as high as others in the raid shouldn't take into account that they could do better, but they should definitely understand the circumstances and the volatility of parses.

Yes, stance swapping is "still" (?) big. Those who are saying otherwise here are simply not knowledgeable on the matter.

Hit 9 focus, Strength stance, burn all focus, at last skill before 0 focus, RF, resume. 2 seconds before RF ends you'll be back at 9 focus at which point you swap back to Precision giving you a couple of seconds to burn some of that focus prior to the gain from Precision stance.

It takes literally seconds to test the difference between Strength and Precision, and for someone traiting properly and with all of the LI buffs, Strength stance has a noticeable damage output increase. This doesn't even factor in that clearly non-crit (aka the majority of) skills, Precision stance's buff is meaningless.

What crit rate is this based on? Do you have LM See-All-Ends set? Definitely interested in this as I was using it for a bit, too, then did some maths and reached a different conclusion to yours.

The maths of this doesn't pan out, for me, based on raid buffs. The 49.2% is essentially mastery -- which, in a raid, you'll have over 500% + when you're using Rapid Fire (Burn Hot + Anthem of War + Banner + Capped Mastery). Makes Strength Stance a little over an 8% DPS increase over that period (including +Crit buff), which doesn't beat the Crit Multiplier from Precision in my maths. It's almost definitely a DPS buff outside of raid buffs tho. Either way it's not something you can test in seconds -- the difference is in the realms of 1%, that's not anything you can do a quick test and know either way due to RNG.

[DKenny]

.... Definitely interested in this as I was using it for a bit, too, then did some maths and reached a different conclusion to yours.

The maths of this doesn't pan out, for me, based on raid buffs. The 49.2% is essentially mastery -- which, in a raid, you'll have over 500% + when you're using Rapid Fire (Burn Hot + Anthem of War + Banner + Capped Mastery). Makes Strength Stance a little over an 8% DPS increase over that period (including +Crit buff), which doesn't beat the Crit Multiplier from Precision in my maths. It's almost definitely a DPS buff outside of raid buffs tho. Either way it's not something you can test in seconds -- the difference is in the realms of 1%, that's not anything you can do a quick test and know either way due to RNG.

The other consideration is that stance swapping requires almost perfect timing, no skill lag etc. to perform up to its theoretical potential whereas staying in precision stance has no analogous dependencies. Even if we assume that stance swapping is +1%, a single slight delay could wipe out any advantage.

[Ethrildar]

If you will provide a screen then surely those numbers are possible with 2 cappies, 2 burgs or whatever.

1 Burg, 1 Cappy, decent players utilising debuffs properly, and a shorter "no issues" fight with decent tanks etc. so no unnecessary shielding of bosses and the like, which helps keep DPS up.

In regards to the above discussion... Posting parses is sadly relatively pointless. LOTRO sucks in some ways because parses are so dependent on your support and your raid group's abilities even before we get into crit RNG.

Completely agree, it's quite irritating really how stale Hunter feels without all of the support, sometimes it feels like punching underwater when you get a few non-crits in a row and no luck on focus gen alongside no debuffs. It's in these situations that Bodkin Arrows really comes into its own and is incredibly noticeable.

I like WoW/FFXIV where I can compare parses, circumstances a lot easier. With the huge focus on support and other people for your own DPS in LOTRO your personal DPS can range to a crazy amount depending on group makeup. That doesn't mean people whom aren't parsing as high as others in the raid shouldn't take into account that they could do better, but they should definitely understand the circumstances and the volatility of parses.

Agreed. The volatility you mention is something that's always been an issue in seeing where the balance is at and is probably one of the reasons we're so hugely unbalanced in what each of the DPS classes can do.

What crit rate is this based on? Do you have LM See-All-Ends set? Definitely interested in this as I was using it for a bit, too, then did some maths and reached a different conclusion to yours.

~40% ish, it's pretty hard to get a "majority" crit rate and you certainly can't keep that with solid (or even close to 100%) uptime that I can think of, which means every non-crit is losing out on ~40% additional damage from mastery.

The maths of this doesn't pan out, for me, based on raid buffs. The 49.2% is essentially mastery -- which, in a raid, you'll have over 500% + when you're using Rapid Fire (Burn Hot + Anthem of War + Banner + Capped Mastery). Makes Strength Stance a little over an 8% DPS increase over that period (including +Crit buff), which doesn't beat the Crit Multiplier from Precision in my maths. It's almost definitely a DPS buff outside of raid buffs tho. Either way it's not something you can test in seconds -- the difference is in the realms of 1%, that's not anything you can do a quick test and know either way due to RNG.

As mentioned above, non-crits miss out on the lack of a stance damage buff when in precision, alongside the fact that it may represent a smaller buff with things like banner up, but that's not 100% uptime in a normal group. The maths still heavily favours stance swapping as even WITH the crit multiplier, damage is less than when in STR stance on crits, too. This is what is easily tested @400% mastery on a training dummy "in seconds".

The other consideration is that stance swapping requires almost perfect timing, no skill lag etc. to perform up to its theoretical potential whereas staying in precision stance has no analogous dependencies. Even if we assume that stance swapping is +1%, a single slight delay could wipe out any advantage.

"No skill lag etc..." yeah.. just like using any skill? Skill lag is going to reduce your damage regardless of whether the skill-play was a Barrage or a stance swap...

It's far more substantial than 1%. Again, there's no "theoretical potential" needed here, try this:

Hit a dummy with a pen shot until it crits (precision stance).
Hit a dummy with a pen shot until it crits (FULLY MAXED OUT strength stance).

Compare the numbers. One is noticeably higher. Now factor in that the majority of hits will not crit. Resulting in (under normal crit circumstances) 70% of your hits not benefiting from any damage buff, where they could've had a +40% damage buff (10% more potent than what is effectively permanent cappy banner).

[Eldarond_EU]

... damage is less than when in STR stance on crits ...

Not true.

...
Hit a dummy with a pen shot until it crits (precision stance).
Hit a dummy with a pen shot until it crits (FULLY MAXED OUT strength stance).
...

Fully maxed Precision Stance shots will do more damage on crits than fully maxed strength stance shots, as long as you're capped on both crit chance and mastery.

... where they could've had a +40% damage buff ...

those 40% are in reality less than 8% actual dmg per non-crit. In addition you need to factor in the incredibly high crit multiplier for Hunters. Even if you crit/dev only 1 out of 3 shots, those shots will do more total damage output than all remaining non-crits. Mathematically, with crit rating at or above 71k and capped mastery, noone should ever switch to strength stance for RF, the reason to use RF is purely to get as many triple 60% as possible. Ideal traiting is usually RF and 3/5 Bodkin Arrows.

[DKenny]

...."No skill lag etc..." yeah.. just like using any skill? Skill lag is going to reduce your damage regardless of whether the skill-play was a Barrage or a stance swap...

It's far more substantial than 1%. Again, there's no "theoretical potential" needed here, try this:

Hit a dummy with a pen shot until it crits (precision stance).
Hit a dummy with a pen shot until it crits (FULLY MAXED OUT strength stance).

Compare the numbers. One is noticeably higher. Now factor in that the majority of hits will not crit. Resulting in (under normal crit circumstances) 70% of your hits not benefiting from any damage buff, where they could've had a +40% damage buff (10% more potent than what is effectively permanent cappy banner).

Yes, any lag will reduce dps regardless of what you're doing, compared to no lag. However, that wasn't really my point. Switching stances is obviously more involved that just staying in one stance. So my point was simply that any small delay in such a switch will quickly wipe out any small potential gain.

As for the rest, I believe that has been addressed in the post above, however, I think it is important to emphasize the point that "70%" (I don't accept that is the correct number, but just for argument's sake...) of your hits which are non-crit are not doing anywhere near 70% of your total damage. Most of your damage is actually going to be from the "30%".

[Eldarond_EU]

70% is wrong, with 30% crit chance and 10% devastate chance, normal shots will be 60%. However, in a raid you get more than 30% crits (40%+ in fact) so your normal shots are 50% chance or less.

Here is a very simple maths why strength stance is bad:

Strength Stance:

Normal Shots

50 * 30k * (1+(49.2/500)) * 0.91 = 1500k

Criticals

40 * 78k * (1+(49.2/500)) = 3427k

Devstates

10 * 96k* (1+(49.2/500)) = 1055k

Total

5982k

Precision Stance:

Normal Shots

50 * 30k * 0.91 =1365 (less damage output from non-crits)

Criticals

40 * 78k * (1+(37/260)) = 3564k (more damage output from crits)

Devstates

10 * 96k * (1+(37/320)) = 1071k (more damage output from devastates)

Total

6000k

This is 0.3% loss in Srength stance, plus there are other small factors which work in favor of Precision stance, giving more reasons to not use Strength Stance, e.g. crit chance is usually higher than 40% in raid, which makes the damage output loss even bigger when switching to Strength stance.