Class Update - Loremasters

[Fulgurix]

Thanks for working on this amazing class!

Few things i noticed from the changes:

- Burning embers dots don't seem to be stacking anymore between themselves (same for the searing ember version): i believe this is a bug? and it was somewhat adressed in the notes but just pointing it out to be safe;

- Ground effects (damage over time) of sticky gourd and fierce lightning haven't been scaled up yet (extrimely low damage);

While the effort to bring back Gust of wind into a LM arsenal is great, i don't like to be forced to use a low damage, long induction skill to upgrade my dots, it makes the class even more clunky than already is on live. But i like the idea of moving away from the boring Embers and Wizard's fire spamming.

Also, consider bringing Power of Knowledge back, it's such a signature skill.

As others have said, the power nerfs seem a bit too heavy, curious to know if now blue captains could be an equal or even better power battery (i don't really play cappy).

[Vilan]

I have not gotten on Bullroarer to test specific changes, but here are some general thoughts.

I like the idea of removing the Hasten skills and moving them to Staff Sweep. Less buttons is good. Cutting the CD of Lightning Strike is nice too, it was way too long to begin with. I also like any boost to Gust of Wind.

Several legendary legacies are believed to be broken or at least not working as the tooltip says. The resistance legacies mainly. I think the Enfeeble trait still doesn't work as advertised despite several attempts to fix it. The class forum has several threads on these. Please look through them.

Why is Power of Knowledge being removed? Granted this was more useful back when it cost a bunch of power to give power to others, but I don't see a reason to remove it completely. Just wondering on the thought process.

It would be nice if Wind Lore could do more than +1% incoming damage. Yes it stacks, but even at 3 it's weak compared to the original -50% ranged damage version, which was pretty potent I admit. Maybe it could grant a smaller ranged damage debuff? Or give -50% but only if it's stacked 3 times? Something, anything.

A final thought. The toughest group content to get a loremaster into, in my experience, is 3-man T2C. You generally want a great tank, great healer, and great DPS. We are none of these. Our strong support roles are great for 6-man or 12-man, but less desirable in 3-man. Please do a few run-throughs of these during your testing to make sure we can reasonably fill a heal or DPS spot (I don't expect to tank anything).

[Estelrandir]

Some feedback after looking at the numbers:

Power sharing: I would keep 10s cd and restore around 5k (ca 75% of light armpur power pool). For the group version I would restore around 2.5-3k power and keep 30s cd.

As others have already mentioned, you should find solution for staff damage (because of its value stacked at lvl 100).

Beacon of hope + Water-lore: I find the values ok.


Some findings:

Staff sweep: after flanking it used to restore power over time. It doesn´t do it anymore.

flank damage bonus on staff strike, cash out, Staff and Storm damage bonus deal only a little damage. It would be nice to improve these values.

In yellow line there is trait called power of knowledge, but with removal of the skill with same name this trait is obsolete.

The burning embers doesn´t stack up the 3 dots as it used to. One can have only 1 stack. Same with searing embers.

Lightning storm: the first of three strikes does a little bit more damage (all 3 used to have same values).


Some opinion for Wizard fire (with flanking, healing and Power of Knowledge):

If the Wizard fire would kept as it is today, with healing morale and power on flank event, then I am not against removing of the skill power of Knowledge. Only the values from flank heals need to be reasonable. With this, then also water-lore could target only other targets, not the player himself (to reduce self healing possibilities. LM has already a lot of cc and pets to keep himself safe.)

[Siddharta]

my LM now stay out of power if the fight lasts more than 3 minutes. In raid yellow burglar could easily solve it, but in 6-man this will be a problem.
So LM need some self-power regen buffs.

I suggest to add a power-hot for Water-Lore. This would solve both self and fellowship\raid power management problems (for all trait lines).

[Arathrinn]

I did some dps tests (~3 minute single target training dummy) with several trait setups, here are the results. (Cannot seem to upload pictures here for some reason so I posted my screenshots via gyazo)

1. Full induction reduction build (https://gyazo.com/592fec4806fe996e3077c77849171155)

DPS target dummy says, 'Thou didst maintain a DPS of 14,764 over the last three minutes of our momentous conflict!'
DPS target dummy says, 'For the entirety of our match, I hath suffered 2,657,520 damage!'

https://gyazo.com/d38350d79cef70fd3917929406e232b6


2. Full red build (https://gyazo.com/e39ab3a7bc3a73cfb5ee66e39e86bd6e)

DPS target dummy says, 'For the entirety of our match, I hath suffered 3,302,208 damage!'
DPS target dummy says, 'Thou didst maintain a DPS of 18,345.600 over the last three minutes of our momentous conflict!'

https://gyazo.com/8e6b8a812fd22d44e18010dd82dfe8cb


3. Inner flame set bonus build (https://gyazo.com/01f53e7a6678f0c85017c312b86f1de9)

DPS target dummy says, 'Thou didst maintain a DPS of 20,744.71 over the last three minutes of our momentous conflict!'
DPS target dummy says, 'For the entirety of our match, I hath suffered 3,734,048 damage!'

https://gyazo.com/0d3bcfaae6a3d15abb9bdf16056d7fdd

[Parasomnie]

Although I wasn't on the Bullroarer so far, here are some of my thoughts to the changes that are done:

1.) Changing the power-management is okay, although I don't understand why you especially focus on this at the moment. In my opinion there are more important fixes to do (Mentioned in 5)... But enough of this.
The cooldowns are okay, but the amount of restored power is way too low. The group-skill with a 30s CD should at least restore around 3k-4k power to be at the one hand still important, but on the other hand nerfed. The 10s CD for the Single-Skill is okay, too, but same thing here: it should restore around 4k-5k power. According to the actual values (Group: 4k-5k, Single: 11k+; 2x 125er Healing-Relic, Fully inspired LM-Staff, no power-trait from the yellow line) it would be a significant change to the now existing dynamics and the limitation would not get too far.
2.) Removing Wizard's Fire is a bad idea. Although it's not dealing heavy damage the skill is very practicable to pull enemies and attack while walking. Taking it away would also make the red raid-bonus useless, 'cause it works only with this skill. So you have to change some sets and legendary attributes. And all this just to buff a skill no-one really uses...? Doesn't make much sense to me. The potential to bring new problems into the game and the class of LM is way higher than leaving it at it is at the moment...
Moving Rapid fire from tier 1 to tier 4 is okay, although every LM loses cast-speed while being skilled in the yellow or blue line. If you change the positions of some traits to higher or lower tiers, why not taking the flame-ring and moving it from tier 6 to tier 1? The flame-ring is laggy and many players hate it, but it has a support-potential for physical classes. It lowers the amount of block, parry and evasion for 20s, which is nice, but also nearly useless for a red LM. At the moment you lose too many Support-Potential if you skill down to tier 6. But if you get it from tier 1, you can easily skill it. It would create new ways to support especially the physical classes without being too overpowered...
Also the skill Power of might: Command would create a greater benefit to physical classes if you change it's effect from reducing parry to reducing evasion.
3.) Before planning to change the power-management, Pleasant Breeze was okay, but nearly no-one used it 'cause of it's mechanics. It only triggers if you land a critical or devastating hit - it was much more comfortable to use the other power-regenerating skills without CD. As a supporter you don't really focus on being at the critical-hit-cap, there are other more important stats. So the chance to trigger this was about 15% (Maybe more, this is the actual critical-rate of my LM being full-support.) - and this is quite low. Especially in some boss fights you don't have the time to cast Gust of Wind often enough to trigger this effect...
If you want to make the skill more useful, remove the condition (critical or devastating hit) and make it trigger every time you use Gust of Wind. Set the CD to 45-60s and leave it a skill that regenerates power, but lower the amount. Lets say, with a heal-relic and a fully inspired staff it regenerates 1500-2000 power (maybe as a hot with a duration of 5s - so every second 300-400 power) and - with looking at your plan to remove Power of Knowledge - it regenerates the LM power, too (Maybe more, lets say about 4 or 5k as a direct effect). The effect should have an AOE-Range of about 20-25m, so you can hit every member of your raid. This would give the skill an interesting dynamic...
Switching it to a weak hot seems not very meaningful to me...
4.) Removing Power of Knowledge would be okay for me, I never really used it 'cause I don't have any power-problems - even in very long fights. But I'm not the only LM in this game, so why not leaving it at it is? Whoever want's to use it, use it. No-one really benefits from removing the skill...It'd cause only suffer...

5.) Now to the things I did not mention in 1.):
The first thing is that the Invalidate-Trait (I don't have an English Client, so I don't know how it's called in English...) is still buggy. Invalidate is the capstone on the right side of the yellow line. It doubles the power of some skills during the first 10s, which is quite nice. But at the moment the armor-debuff ("Uraltes Handwerk" in German, in English maybe Ancient Craft/Lore?) with using this trait is lower than without. It was once fixed at the time of Level 105, but got buggy again when moving to Level 115 and Mordor.
Another thing is that after you summon a pet you can't use any skill for quite a long time - which is very annoying...
And when it comes to pets: Every pet of the LM has it's special ability making it more or less useful, which is great and gives you many opportunities to influence in raids. The sabertooth has the special ability to reduce the frost-mitigations by 10%. This is nice, but most classes won't use frost-skills in their rota (Runekeepers sometimes do, but much to infrequent...). Switching the Fire-Debuff from the raven to the sabertooth wouldn't help a lot. Making it more special would. Additionally to the Frost-Debuff (dealt with the same skill) it should be able to set an Incoming-Heal-Debuff of let's say 15 or 20% (Doubles while using catnip). Especially for bosses that heal themselves this could be interesting and it gives you an additional, not too strong or overpowered option.

But all in all I'm quite happy that you made your thoughts to this complicated, but great class - especially your thoughts on integrating forgotten skills. Good job, guys.

[B749]

Not much to comment yet -- awaiting what you decide to do with Wizard's Fire. Overall DPS is lower than live atm because of the shared effects of searing embers stacks no longer being a thing and the tac dmg relic nerf.

Power restore nerf is a bit harsh, but then again Barrage spam meta is a thing of the past now. Reading you plan to adjust some harsh power drain situations is comforting at least, but the restore values are a bit low. Perhaps make at least the Fellowship version of Share the Power apply a medium power HoT?

One thing though; please bring back Power of Knowledge. It's the LM's self-restore skill for Power, which we should have even if we don't need it frequently (though you do need it if you spam a lot of Water-lores, for example). Also the Yellow line trait doesn't currently do anything since you deleted the skill

Finally: while you're at it, any chance of dragging someone who can work on animations here to take a look at the horrible animation roots? LM is the most clunky class to play in this game because most abilities simply root you in place, even ones that don't have an induction. You can argue having a strong pet makes up for that disadvantage in landscape, which is true, but it's a major crippling point in raiding/t2 group content where movement is important.

[Turin347]

Hello fellows Loremasters.
For instance, J’adore the adjustments that are made for the red tree, and changing the BE+Wizard Fire & repeat forced way to have a decent dps is one of the best improvement that could be made. After those quick congratulations, please!
Don’t forget behind some of the forgettable skills that as of now many have already thrown off the skill bars:

-Call to the Valar, that has got a very limited, barely considerable effect, with an insane CD of 5min. Remember that it doesn’t even prevent the interrupts.

-Wind-lore has got an effect only when playing for a “yellow” role (spreading debuffs), but since it’s a off-trees base skill, it would be nice to have some side effect, like refreshing Searing Embers or spreading the dots. Or maybe it could tier up a proper inc. dmg buff, so to have a role in blue-red specs

-Power of Knowledge was one of the coolest skills, but if u want to work with the power resources in the future, thus removing the current effect, why not make such channeled skill something around the defiler channeled bubble or a channeled buff on a target fellow, smtg like the Inner-Lore buff for a bud?

-Inner Lore has been buffed previously, and with legacy+healing rune, at almost capped mastery, the heal is a viable 2,8k-4,1k per second (in 5 seconds).Maybe we’ll need to use it, as the potential healing role is getting adjusted. Maybe the skill could become a full buffing skill, with a buff duration of around 30 secs. The current duration is 15 secs, and in this time u can barely cast two skills, according to animations and inductions. The buff needs a 5 seconds channel, so it’s a bit costly. A 15 sec buff would be great if it could be cast upon a fellow, but on the LM himself, it is barely used in every-day playing (still I hope someone is having fun with it since they buffed it :P)

-Knowledge of the LM is another of the skills someone could quickly forget, and could use some small buff or side effect, (maybe tracking something is some way in the surroundings?)

-Sing of Power: Vigilance has got an effect with a little use even in the moors, almost the only place where it can have potentially a real effect. What about making it a bit more useful, for example buffing in a comparable way the Stealth Detection with the actual Stealth Level, or adjust the cd and make it reveal the stealthed (Idk, just proposing some cool and probably op change).

For the combat, as of now it seems that u need a proper rotation for the skills (and I hugely LOVE this), and the current state of the fire DoT from BE and SE (the BE DoT is now upgraded by Gust of Wind, but the SE DoT is not stackable, and IF it is spreaded it’s done in a not upgrade-able way, Cross Fire. U can ofc stack BE DoT, but the need of using the lighting skills in the rotation can interfere and it will remove first the SE DoT. The Cash-Out is really low in dmg, and this is making u planning a rotation where the SE dot is far from the lighting skills) is making the Lighting dmg a common source of dps. Lighting Storm is no more an occasional skill, since u will to use Staff-Sweep as a cd reducer as much as possible.

For the power, I think they wanted to address the power regen to the pure yellow line, maybe with a smart use of The Ancient Master trait (but Idk the values of power regen it can give, and have not tested it). We’ll see in the future.

Lastly, I would like to see the Flank mechanics back from the nothingness they are, like a new source for a smart self-survival/power supply (properly balanced obv), but this is only a side desire for a even more complex and to maximize the potential approaches we already have to the gameplay.

P.S. of course I’m not copying the suggestions and technical feedbacks already made by others, but so far everyone contributed greatly
P.P.S. As usual, sorry for the ###### English.

--Duf of Ark

[Laurelinarien]

• Gust of Wind replacing Wizard's Fire
  I must say initially I wasn't happy at all when I read about the Embers-WF combo becoming Embers-Gust. It's always been such a useless skill I don't even slot it. My first impression on this new rotation was: I don't like this at all, feels counterintuitive, too static. After more testing, it kinda grew on me, tho it still feels so slow when you compare it to using WF... Being linked to Pleasant Breeze, I tweeked around my traits to be able to slot points there without losing too much from red line, and I think Gust crits enough to make PB usable (even if aoe healing isn't a priority while running red, it was just for testing purposes).
  
  To sum up: I don't hate the Embers-Gust combo but I do miss WF.

• Power restore nerf
  It's true that LM power pool barely moves while running PVE instances/raids (unless enemy-drained) but maybe you took the nerf way too seriously? Getting to restore 1k power after traiting for it (running yellow) is kinda sad, worse than pot. But again, I'll wait to see how it plays out in groups. Linked to this, tho I loved Power of Knowledge animation, I don't think LMs need it (again, just referring to PVE here and given that our power regen doesnt get nerfed too).

• Removing the Hasten procs: great choice.

• Water-lore +Inc Heal is gonna be missed but I guess you won't be scaling that up anyway, +30 was huge.
  

Any chance you might consider giving us back some fellowship wide 'debuff-cleaning' skill (in yellow)?

Thanks for all your work!

[ColMcStacky]

Just felt the need to give my $0.02 on the proposed changes:

For starters, thank you for not removing Wizard's Fire!
Can you also leave in Power of Knowledge? With the Pleasant Breeze change, LM's won't have any self-power restores other than power potions which have too long of a cooldown to really be helpful, especially when healing (Water-Lore is a serious power drain...), and this is not even considering power draining mechanics in instances. I can say with confidence that the way I've healed on my LM in the past, pots alone won't be enough, especially if it's true that the Flanking Staff-Sweep power restore is removed now as I've heard elsewhere.

• Trait Changes
  
  • Removed red tree trait 'Empowering Fires': This may end up hurting lower levels, but probably not honestly. From what I hear, most people level LM's in blue nowadays. Is it being replaced with anything else though?
  • Red tree Trait 'Rapid Fire' now scales to a 25% induction reduction for 5 points (was 10% for 2), moved it to tier 4: This slightly nerf's offspec's of the LM. I have yellow and blue spec's where I grab this to speed up inductions slightly. It won't be a major nerf, but it will be noticeable. I don't really see the reasoning behind this.
  • 5th red line set bonus now renamed to 'Hasten', it now grants a cooldown bonus to Sticky Gourd, Lightning Storm, and Ents go to War when the 'Staff Sweep' ability strikes at least one target: I'm torn on this one. On the one hand, I like the reliance on Flanking because the pets are an integral part of the class. On the other hand, I always liked LM being a hybrid melee/ranged class. I also like the idea of it affecting every skill instead of choosing, as well as Lightning Storm being included in the list.
  • Fierce Lightning trait now scales to a 100% chance of ignition (was 50%): I trust the damage was substantially increased too? As it was before, the trait was useless because of how little damage it did.
  • Flame of Arnor may or may not be properly applying to gust of wind (tooltip is definitely wrong): I assume this means Flame of Arnor is going to increase Gust of Wind's max targets? That'd be a welcome change, although I would like to see something like this in yellow as well to help with proc'ing Pleasant Breeze.
  
  
  
• Skill Changes
  
  • Normalized dmg for all loremaster skills/effects: This is a welcomed change.
  • Increased base dmg of most battle skills/effects: Welcomed change as well.
  • Reduced cooldown of Lightning Strike to 10 seconds: Very good idea, this will help make Lightning secondary debuffs consistent finally! Thank you!
  • Removed Wizard's Fire and moved most of its ember effects to Gust of Wind. (Note: WF will be coming back, but it will behave somewhat differently): Thank you for not removing Wizard's Fire after all. I do like the idea of Gust of Wind having actual functionality though. Interested in hearing what you have decided to do with Wizards Fire, although I'd be lying if I said I wasn't a little nervous.
  • Gust of Wind is now an area of effect. Some further adjustment in the way Gust of Wind interacts with the burning embers' spead and intensify effect may need to be made Can Burning Embers created by spreading with Gust of Wind be upgraded to Searing Embers yet? If memory serves, that was a bug that existed since trait trees were made. Not sure if this was fixed or not yet, as I haven't tested in a while. Also, if this is going to happen, then the cooldown on Gust of Wind needs some serious attention (unless it upgrades every Burning Embers to Searing Embers on every target it hits). The induction needs to be shortened regardless. Maybe a base of 1s or even 0.8s? A 2s induction on what is supposed to be the bread-and-butter of LM DPS is just a bit too much in my opinion.
  • Increased base and dot heal values of water-lore, light of hope, beacon of hope: This is a nice boon to our healing, I'm wondering how the scaling is with one less healing relic though. LM wasn't quite able to heal 3mans reliably t2c 115. It could work, but sometimes you just couldn't avoid deaths. If SSG wants to turn us into main healers, at least for small groups, then an overall increase compared to what we currently have on live is needed.
  • Added cooldowns to Share Power (10s) and Share Power - Fellowship(30s), and substantially reduced their magnitudes: I'm not happy about this at all, but I do understand why it is being done. Any chance the cooldowns can be reduced though? Maybe 3-5s for single target, and 15-20s for fellowship-wide? Also, can the fellowship version be made to affect an entire raid by any chance? Typically the DPS are not in the same group as the LM, and they are the ones who have power issues the most.
  • Pleasant Breeze is now a Heal rather than a Power restore: While this does make me happy to see, I would rather it stay as a power restore if Knowledge of Power is definitely going to be removed. We need at least one self-sustain skill. The tradeoff for either is a channel skill, or an unreliable proc. I don't think either of these is incredibly overpowered in light of the Share the Power changes being made.
  • Water-lore's healing buff is now base 0%, gains 5% when traited. (30% group inc heal buff just too big): I'm sad to see this, but I understand why. I'm wondering if it would be possible to scale certain bosses accordingly though, namely in Throne of the Dread Terror: the Twins, and archers' Incoming Healing debuff in the Mumakil fight?
  • Power of Knowledge has been removed: Please, Please don't do this... With how much power Water-Lore costs, LM's need some sort of self-sustain other than power pots. Even with 2.4k+ fate, if I am healing, my power is gone in about 2 minutes at most in a yellow/blue build. The two options that I see are either keeping Power of Knowledge (please do this), or if you guys are adamant about removing it, then decrease the power cost of Water-Lore and Beacon of Hope by maybe 20-30%. One of these two needs to happen though in order for the fellowship's main battery to not become a dud...
  • Removed all 'Hasten' skill buttons from the red line - these effects now occur when you use 'Staff Sweep': Does this mean they happen regardless of which line the LM is traited in? That could be interesting, if a little inappropriate. If so, maybe then you can add Sic 'Em and The Ancient Master (blue/yellow capstones), and maybe even Storm-Lore to the cooldown increase? Just a thought.

Overall, I must say that I am not very happy with these changes, but the majority of them I understand the reasoning behind. I am definitely not in favor of making LM's into DPS classes. The damage is honestly fine where it is currently on live with 2 raid relics for damage rating. I understand normalizing things with regards to other classes, but please don't try to shoehorn LM's into a DPS role in groups... Support classes are in my opinion the most fun in the game, and if SSG is aiming to take this away from LM's or nerf their overall support potential, the game is definitely going to lose out.

[reincarnate]

Yes. I think I'm probably going to have to address this by looking at the power-drain abilities on creeps (and a couple instances) and reducing their magnitudes somewhat to help keep some parity.

The problem is that massive power restore trivializes power for all group content, and I don't wish to maintain that just because a Weaver can obliterate your pools in 15s flat.

Note that we're not trying to make power management a Big Deal in this update. We haven't really messed with power costs at all and a lot of builds don't have serious power issues, but nor do we want the concept to be trivialized by a single class ability.

The magnitudes of the CDs and actual power restore values are of course still subject to change, so feel free to opine on those as you see fit. LM's are definitely supposed to still be able to provide the primary power battery role for groups in extended content.

First of all, can I just say "thank you." It's really great and a breath of fresh air to have devs who listen to constructive feedback.

I do think that nerfing the power drain abilities of creeps - keep in mind, defiler flies are also very effective - would be a good counterbalance. That said, I also would suggest:

1) As mentioned by several people - go with CD increase or power-given decrease, but not both. Personally I prefer power-given decrease, so you can have it available in your skill rotation as much as you want, but have to balance it with other important skill decisions.

2) I can understand re-vamping power of knowledge. It LOOKS super cool (maybe this animaiton can be used some other way? Because really awesome visually) but it still operates in a weird, early-game fashion when a lot of other things have been updated for speed/effect. But a re-vamp is different than deletion. LM's do still need SOME (maybe faster? Less induction?) way to restore their own power in a significant manner, as they act as a power battery quite often in group format. So, what could this way be? Well, you're the dev Maybe add a power restore to certain skills? e.g. yellow line - test of will. Redline - Lightning Storm (power restored per target hit?) Blue line - pet action or skill? etc.

I hope this is helpful feedback, and again thank you so much for listening to the players!

(edited to suggest a blue line power restore option)

[reincarnate]

Also, I like what John-Anthony has said, and concur with it.

[Cordovan]

Just wanted to thank everyone again for providing great feedback on this.

[SavileRow]

Thanks are all well good Cordovan, but have an idea on how this impact on pvp?...I don't suppose it's even crossed your mind has it?.

[SavileRow]

And if you think pvp would be better with Reincarnates proposed Creep nerfs then we're talking 'FINAL NAIL IN PVP COFFIN'

[Giliodor]

I do think that nerfing the power drain abilities of creeps - keep in mind, defiler flies are also very effective - would be a good counterbalance.

I don't even play a Lore-master, but this is something that concerns PvMP, which I do whenever I play LotRO. I would like to make it abundantly clear that defiler flies are by no means "very effective", and don't need adjustments at all. The only thing that is too powerful on creep side in terms of power draining is Toxin, Latent Poison (max. power reduction) and Shadow's Bite, all of which are weaver skills. Toxin needs to have its ticks reduced in magnitude by a large amount, it has been ridiculous all throughout Mordor. With the nerfs to power restoration, it is of great importance that you reduce each of the above three skills in potency.

I'm sorry if this information is unwanted in an LM thread, but since Vastin commented on it, I think it's appropriate.

[siipperi]

I don't even play a Lore-master, but this is something that concerns PvMP, which I do whenever I play LotRO. I would like to make it abundantly clear that defiler flies are by no means "very effective", and don't need adjustments at all. The only thing that is too powerful on creep side in terms of power draining is Toxin, Latent Poison (max. power reduction) and Shadow's Bite, all of which are weaver skills. Toxin needs to have its ticks reduced in magnitude by a large amount, it has been ridiculous all throughout Mordor. With the nerfs to power restoration, it is of great importance that you reduce each of the above three skills in potency.

I'm sorry if this information is unwanted in an LM thread, but since Vastin commented on it, I think it's appropriate.

^What he said. Defiler flies are totally meh and are fine to keep as they are. Spider is the issue especially after thes changes.

[wewenang]

First of all thank you for looking into LM. But please dont remove knowledge of power, it is very usefull in sticky situation and the animation is the COOLEST ever in the game. I'm glad you decided not to remove WF coz the skill is LM bread and butter and the ONLY mobile skill that LM have.Yes the gust of wind sucks...and the animation is also suck and most of the time the animation is bug and did not work, the induction is also suck. So my suggestion is just to remove gust of wind from LM skill set all together, nobody hardly use it anyway. Lastly i dont mind at all that you are trying to make LM as a dps class, i'm bored being the support all the time and yet too in love with LM to play any other dps class.

[SavileRow]

This is total fallacy, Once again the usual suspects are imposing their P2W thoughts on PVMP, as if Creepside OP'ness is the be all and end all of what is wrong!!!!...RIDICULOUS!!!!!!! This is purely freeps trying to consolidate and maintain the hegemony as it currently exists...SHAME ON YOU SSG!!! You deserve to die if you listen to this garbage.

You see what we have here is the VERY last thing Creeps have against Wards/LM's ie TC power drain, if that is removed or even slightly nerfed than you may as well close PVP altogether, LM'S CAN KILL CREEPS with incredulous ease , Do any DEVS go on ARK and play CREEPS?????.....It's no good testing things on NP..effic C's....get in the MOORS and TEST you morons.


Feel like I'm bashing my head against a BRick wall here, so knowing full well that you won't do any of the above, I quit. No more pleading posts from me, go ahead, do your worst, and when your 'Overlords' realised you fluffed it, you know who to blame.

[Xhiu]

Thanks are all well good Cordovan, but have an idea on how this impact on pvp?...I don't suppose it's even crossed your mind has it?.

jesusmariayjose man

You think that pvmp players are silent on this issue? stop thinking with yer... one cell

[SavileRow]

XHIU...are you the most niave player to ever log on this game?..in it's history ....ever?....do you not realise this companies track record?...have you not seen where we are with pvmp these days?...do you even pvp?

Somehow this Freep boost thread has been morphed into a Creep nerf thread......why dont you make it so even Guards can even 1 shot rk 15 wl and have done with it, so we Creeps know that we can delete our toons with our integrity.

Recently , I've been trying to revive pvmp on Crick, if this is the future i'll not bother.

[Tirian-Hammerfist]

Another poster said what was below, and I just wanted to clarify the Dev intentions behind the LM class balance. Is the intention to make all classes equally viable in a dps role in a raid, or is the intention to make all classes more equal in terms of dps for landscape (which is pretty painful for LMs at the moment)? And if it was the former, couldn't LMs have the option of a dps line or a support line in a raid, depending on what was needed? Dps can be boosted without removing the necessity for a support class - it's just that different groups may have different requirements at the time, and LMs could fulfil both - I don't think doing so would hurt anyone.



Overall, I must say that I am not very happy with these changes, but the majority of them I understand the reasoning behind. I am definitely not in favor of making LM's into DPS classes. The damage is honestly fine where it is currently on live with 2 raid relics for damage rating. I understand normalizing things with regards to other classes, but please don't try to shoehorn LM's into a DPS role in groups... Support classes are in my opinion the most fun in the game, and if SSG is aiming to take this away from LM's or nerf their overall support potential, the game is definitely going to lose out.

[siipperi]

Another poster said what was below, and I just wanted to clarify the Dev intentions behind the LM class balance. Is the intention to make all classes equally viable in a dps role in a raid, or is the intention to make all classes more equal in terms of dps for landscape (which is pretty painful for LMs at the moment)? And if it was the former, couldn't LMs have the option of a dps line or a support line in a raid, depending on what was needed? Dps can be boosted without removing the necessity for a support class - it's just that different groups may have different requirements at the time, and LMs could fulfil both - I don't think doing so would hurt anyone.



Overall, I must say that I am not very happy with these changes, but the majority of them I understand the reasoning behind. I am definitely not in favor of making LM's into DPS classes. The damage is honestly fine where it is currently on live with 2 raid relics for damage rating. I understand normalizing things with regards to other classes, but please don't try to shoehorn LM's into a DPS role in groups... Support classes are in my opinion the most fun in the game, and if SSG is aiming to take this away from LM's or nerf their overall support potential, the game is definitely going to lose out.

Considering his OP on guard thread, I would say no (where he said red guard aim is be better for questing or along those lines), ssg is just trying to bring all classes in reasonable distance from each others. Being competitive dps means extremely small dps differences among classes and he's certainly not aiming to do that with guardian and not with lm either or there would have been significantly bigger buff already.

[Cil.]

I've already post that comment in general feedback, but I think this is a best place for it : (I'm sorry if this has already been said, but I'm french, and the comments on this thread are very long, so I didn't take the time to read each of them)

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About the Share Power :

Don't you think it's not enough just already an hard class to play in raid ? Seriously ? Debuff, anti-stun (I'm french, I don't know the real name in english), control, gestion of pets, healing support...
Do who want us to have an heart attack ? A cooldown on the Share Power (solo) ?... Really ?!?
Most of time, we do all the other things we have to, and, when we finally manage to make some time (a very tiny instant !) we check out the level of mana, refill 2 or 3 allies, before going back to the other stuff we have to do.
We do not have the time to refill mana each 10 sec : as the magnitude will be reduced, I suppose we would have to cast 3 or 4 times to refill someone... That means we have to insert a Power of Knowledge each 3 skills...
We do NOT have the time for that !!!

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About the Wizard's Fire :

This is our ONLY skill that can be cast while running. You said it will come back, but please, consider that we have deeds to do, and this skill is often use for that, on lower lvl mobs. So if it has to change, I beg you : do not to forget this point.

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And PLIIIIIIIZZZZZZ ! Don't remove the Power of Knowledge. Most of time, I agree, it's not much used in raid. BUT ! Its animation is so WONDERFULL ! It is so "LA CLASSE" (in french ) !

[GrayTalon]

First off, thanks for taking up the task of re-balancing classes. You won't be able to please everyone. It seems like you've gotten a fair amount of response from raiders and red-line LMs (which makes sense due to the trait changes being mainly red). As a blue line LM, who doesn't stretch much beyond 3 man content, I'll give some feedback from what I see.

1. I'd like to ask you to remember that pet interactions are important to some of us. I'd hate to see the few options we have for interacting with our pets get lost in the shuffle. I'm talking about WF heals, Sweep power restores. They need to be scaled up to be useful, but I'd like to see them remain.

2. Removal of the buff trait for the flank heals I'd also like reconsidered. If the base heal for flanking was scaled to a reasonable level, then this boost trait would again be useful for those who are looking to sacrifice some damage traits for some 'toughness'.

3. Thanks for the buffs to our heals, that is one of the helpful things even blue line can bring to the group. I'd recommend considering moving the heal traits in the yellow line down a bit so that they are easier to cross-pick.

4. CC is one of the main reasons I play this class. Please remember that there are many times where we want to focus our damage on one target so as not to break CC. I'd prefer not to see the change mentioned about using gust of wind to upgrade burning embers, and simultaneously making it aoe. That would mean that when we're in tight quarters CC'ng we wouldn't be able to upgrade burning embers.

Thanks again.

p.s. While you are poking around, could you fix the old blue line essence 'essence of the beast' so that it works again? It doesn't work currently on live.