Class Update - Hunters

[Joedangod]

That is why we have DIFFERENT classes, the logical end of your supposition is 1 class for everyone.

What?

[Bhorn_EU]

What?

You stated that you loathe having champs with no competition for AOE dps, that is the primary role of the champion, that is what that class is for. As with the captain class, it is designed as a support class, that is it's job, to make everyone else better. This is why different people choose different classes to play; they want different things from the game. If every class could do aoe dps, buff, support and heal, it would be a very very boring game.

[Giliodor]

You stated that you loathe having champs with no competition for AOE dps, that is the primary role of the champion, that is what that class is for. As with the captain class, it is designed as a support class, that is it's job, to make everyone else better. This is why different people choose different classes to play; they want different things from the game. If every class could do aoe dps, buff, support and heal, it would be a very very boring game.

No, that's not what champions are for. That's what yellow line is for, on a champion. Can you seriously not see the difference? Red line is a single target spec. Champions are a single target DPS spec, or an AoE DPS spec, or a tanking spec. They're not an AoE class. How is that not obvious?

Of course the game wouldn't be boring if every spec was viable. They all have different ways of achieving their goal.

Every spec being viable doesn't mean that every class is the same.

[Madmanthief]

Oh give it a rest, just be honest and say that you want your god-mode turret Hunter.

What's really messed up is Cordovan coming in and making a comment on a class that I've never seen him play with any degree of proficiency.

[Namma]

Greetings O Hunters!

Just a little comment to the Devs from a player who doesn't pvp.

Unilateral changes geared towards pvp only are disgusting.

Here's an idea, change your game mechanics so that EVERYTHING changes when you enter pvp. That should keep any who complain and whine about whatever busy.

Leave pve alone. Stop forcing those of us who work, etc., to relearn the entire gist of this game.

Again, this is a comment to the Devs only, not the remainder of you. I won't be back for your ... comments.

[Giliodor]

Just a little comment to the Devs from a player who doesn't pvp.

Unilateral changes geared towards pvp only are disgusting.

Here's an idea, change your game mechanics so that EVERYTHING changes when you enter pvp. That should keep any who complain and whine about whatever busy.

Leave pve alone. Stop forcing those of us who work, etc., to relearn the entire gist of this game.

Again, this is a comment to the Devs only, not the remainder of you. I won't be back for your ... comments.

Nothing in this game is ever changes because of PvP. If it were, burglars would be the first to get nerfed, not hunters. But guess what? Burglars were left untouched. It is such a ludicrous assertion, you should be embarrassed. Blue hunters are equally dumb in PvE, and that's why the change is being made. Not because of PvP.

[siipperi]

Just a little comment to the Devs from a player who doesn't pvp.

Unilateral changes geared towards pvp only are disgusting.

Here's an idea, change your game mechanics so that EVERYTHING changes when you enter pvp. That should keep any who complain and whine about whatever busy.

Leave pve alone. Stop forcing those of us who work, etc., to relearn the entire gist of this game.

Again, this is a comment to the Devs only, not the remainder of you. I won't be back for your ... comments.

None of these changes are made for pvp... To your knowledge game used to do bigger changes to classes than this every year for first 4-5 years of its existence. Every year meta was rerolled and classes tweaked with heavy hand. This is barely anything. Only post hd we have had extremely disgusting no work on classes. Before this it was normal for every expansion to change classes.

[Ghost_Archer]

All this math is wonderful but it doesn't mean a thing to me. Why? Because I don't play end-game content. Yeah, I am one of those casual players and an altoholic. In fact, I have something like a hundred alts on seven servers and two accounts. My sweet spot for playing LOTRO isn't 106 to 115, it is 20 to 60. I don't do PvMP, Raids, Skirms or multiple trips through the Great Barrow. I am not worried about sustained DPS, I don't worry about running out of Power, I don't design my LIs for the Blue Line or the Red Line. I don't hunt out specific pieces of gear that decreases induction times for Heart Shot or anything else. I am a solo player and love it.

So, here's my very brief and very telling take on the changes that are coming ... yes, I say coming, because SSG is not going to take the advice of anyone like me because I don't do end-game. My experiment was simple, no training dummies, no calculations, just a straight up comparison between two characters. Character 1 is live, Character 2 is BR. Both are elves, both are hunters, both are using the Blue Line.

Character 1: Basic Barrage: 613 - 641

Character 2: Basic Barrage: 179 - 279

Character 1: Penetrating Shot: 613 - 641

Character 2: Penetrating Shot: 175 - 272

Character 1: Bow has 30 - 54 damage range with 19.1 DPS; -5% induction

Character 2: Bow has 38 - 69 damage range with 53.8 DPS (that's what is says); -2.5% induction, +92 crit rating

Both killing mobs in West of Bree, mob level level is 15. Character 1, mostly one shot. Character 2, as many as four shots. Both characters are level 20.

Question: Why, with a better bow, does character 2 now do one half and less damage than character 1?

Question: Why is it taking character 2 as much as four times as long to kill a mob that she out-levels by five levels? (though for that, the damage explains it, but I had several shots actually deflected by bears)

SSG, my math is simple. I am a low level player that you're screwing over in a major way. I can see adjustments are always necessary but to cut my damage to less than one half? That's pretty drastic isn't it?

Oh, and I don't need, or want, Press Onward in the blue line at all, leave me Strong Draw. And why did you move Precision so deep into the Blue line? Improved Intent Concentration roots me to a spot and has a 30 sec cool down. I rarely use it now. Honestly, as a blue line hunter, I live for the level I can get Precision, so thanks for making that level somewhere in Moria now instead of the Lone Lands.

As a casual, non end-game player, I find your ideas on changes needed in the blue line to be like a Republican Tax cut. Good for the high end people at the expense of the lower and middle class. ... and I thought Trait Trees were a stupid idea ...

[Dimar]

All this math is wonderful but it doesn't mean a thing to me. Why? Because I don't play end-game content. Yeah, I am one of those casual players and an altoholic. In fact, I have something like a hundred alts on seven servers and two accounts. My sweet spot for playing LOTRO isn't 106 to 115, it is 20 to 60. I don't do PvMP, Raids, Skirms or multiple trips through the Great Barrow. I am not worried about sustained DPS, I don't worry about running out of Power, I don't design my LIs for the Blue Line or the Red Line. I don't hunt out specific pieces of gear that decreases induction times for Heart Shot or anything else. I am a solo player and love it.

So, here's my very brief and very telling take on the changes that are coming ... yes, I say coming, because SSG is not going to take the advice of anyone like me because I don't do end-game. My experiment was simple, no training dummies, no calculations, just a straight up comparison between two characters. Character 1 is live, Character 2 is BR. Both are elves, both are hunters, both are using the Blue Line.

Character 1: Basic Barrage: 613 - 641

Character 2: Basic Barrage: 179 - 279

Character 1: Penetrating Shot: 613 - 641

Character 2: Penetrating Shot: 175 - 272

Character 1: Bow has 30 - 54 damage range with 19.1 DPS; -5% induction

Character 2: Bow has 38 - 69 damage range with 53.8 DPS (that's what is says); -2.5% induction, +92 crit rating

Both killing mobs in West of Bree, mob level level is 15. Character 1, mostly one shot. Character 2, as many as four shots. Both characters are level 20.

Question: Why, with a better bow, does character 2 now do one half and less damage than character 1?

Question: Why is it taking character 2 as much as four times as long to kill a mob that she out-levels by five levels? (though for that, the damage explains it, but I had several shots actually deflected by bears)

SSG, my math is simple. I am a low level player that you're screwing over in a major way. I can see adjustments are always necessary but to cut my damage to less than one half? That's pretty drastic isn't it?

Oh, and I don't need, or want, Press Onward in the blue line at all, leave me Strong Draw. And why did you move Precision so deep into the Blue line? Improved Intent Concentration roots me to a spot and has a 30 sec cool down. I rarely use it now. Honestly, as a blue line hunter, I live for the level I can get Precision, so thanks for making that level somewhere in Moria now instead of the Lone Lands.

As a casual, non end-game player, I find your ideas on changes needed in the blue line to be like a Republican Tax cut. Good for the high end people at the expense of the lower and middle class. ... and I thought Trait Trees were a stupid idea ...

Hmm that makes sense if they want to kill the grind for Lps. Ered Luin = Mini or Hunter rinse and repeat but if your expierence is right it will get serious nerfed. I was expecting something like this.

[DKenny]

....SSG, my math is simple. I am a low level player that you're screwing over in a major way. I can see adjustments are always necessary but to cut my damage to less than one half? That's pretty drastic isn't it?

Oh, and I don't need, or want, Press Onward in the blue line at all, leave me Strong Draw. And why did you move Precision so deep into the Blue line? Improved Intent Concentration roots me to a spot and has a 30 sec cool down. I rarely use it now. Honestly, as a blue line hunter, I live for the level I can get Precision, so thanks for making that level somewhere in Moria now instead of the Lone Lands.

As a casual, non end-game player, I find your ideas on changes needed in the blue line to be like a Republican Tax cut. Good for the high end people at the expense of the lower and middle class. ... and I thought Trait Trees were a stupid idea ...

You raise an excellent point - basically all of the changes, and almost all of the testing, is focused exclusively on end game characters and content. No consideration is given to the implications of changes for lower level characters. So, based on your comments, it appears that hunters are going way down in terms of landscape effectiveness in lower levels. Unfortunately it is doubtful that it will have any impact on what changes ultimately go live. I expect the usual gang of cheerleaders will post that you're totally wrong and you should be able to slay on level sig mobs with a frying pan and if you cannot then it's all your fault, l2p etc.

[DKenny]

Hmm that makes sense if they want to kill the grind for Lps. Ered Luin = Mini or Hunter rinse and repeat but if your expierence is right it will get serious nerfed. I was expecting something like this.

Except champs will be better at it than ever. I expect the usual suspects will be just fine with that.

[TiberiasKirk]

All this math is wonderful but it doesn't mean a thing to me. Why? Because I don't play end-game content. Yeah, I am one of those casual players and an altoholic. In fact, I have something like a hundred alts on seven servers and two accounts. My sweet spot for playing LOTRO isn't 106 to 115, it is 20 to 60. I don't do PvMP, Raids, Skirms or multiple trips through the Great Barrow. I am not worried about sustained DPS, I don't worry about running out of Power, I don't design my LIs for the Blue Line or the Red Line. I don't hunt out specific pieces of gear that decreases induction times for Heart Shot or anything else. I am a solo player and love it.

So, here's my very brief and very telling take on the changes that are coming ... yes, I say coming, because SSG is not going to take the advice of anyone like me because I don't do end-game. My experiment was simple, no training dummies, no calculations, just a straight up comparison between two characters. Character 1 is live, Character 2 is BR. Both are elves, both are hunters, both are using the Blue Line.

Character 1: Basic Barrage: 613 - 641

Character 2: Basic Barrage: 179 - 279

Character 1: Penetrating Shot: 613 - 641

Character 2: Penetrating Shot: 175 - 272

Character 1: Bow has 30 - 54 damage range with 19.1 DPS; -5% induction

Character 2: Bow has 38 - 69 damage range with 53.8 DPS (that's what is says); -2.5% induction, +92 crit rating

Both killing mobs in West of Bree, mob level level is 15. Character 1, mostly one shot. Character 2, as many as four shots. Both characters are level 20.

Question: Why, with a better bow, does character 2 now do one half and less damage than character 1?

Question: Why is it taking character 2 as much as four times as long to kill a mob that she out-levels by five levels? (though for that, the damage explains it, but I had several shots actually deflected by bears)

SSG, my math is simple. I am a low level player that you're screwing over in a major way. I can see adjustments are always necessary but to cut my damage to less than one half? That's pretty drastic isn't it?

Oh, and I don't need, or want, Press Onward in the blue line at all, leave me Strong Draw. And why did you move Precision so deep into the Blue line? Improved Intent Concentration roots me to a spot and has a 30 sec cool down. I rarely use it now. Honestly, as a blue line hunter, I live for the level I can get Precision, so thanks for making that level somewhere in Moria now instead of the Lone Lands.

As a casual, non end-game player, I find your ideas on changes needed in the blue line to be like a Republican Tax cut. Good for the high end people at the expense of the lower and middle class. ... and I thought Trait Trees were a stupid idea ...

Wow, this is the kind of game destroying effect that I was afraid of. Changes made with no regard to how they really affect everything in the game from top to bottom.

Where do your end game players come from? Most will level up and with numbers like that, far fewer people will stick with this game meaning game death in years to come, but still eventual game death.

Excellent post, nice range on your numbers too, Definitely an A.

[Joedangod]

So, here's my very brief and very telling take on the changes that are coming ... yes, I say coming, because SSG is not going to take the advice of anyone like me because I don't do end-game. My experiment was simple, no training dummies, no calculations, just a straight up comparison between two characters. Character 1 is live, Character 2 is BR. Both are elves, both are hunters, both are using the Blue Line.

Character 1: Basic Barrage: 613 - 641

Character 2: Basic Barrage: 179 - 279

Character 1: Penetrating Shot: 613 - 641

Character 2: Penetrating Shot: 175 - 272

Character 1: Bow has 30 - 54 damage range with 19.1 DPS; -5% induction

Character 2: Bow has 38 - 69 damage range with 53.8 DPS (that's what is says); -2.5% induction, +92 crit rating

Level 20 you say? Let me go find some level 20ish mobs.

Yeah...I think there might be a problem with that Character 1: Basic Barrage value...

[Joedangod]

He said level 20-60. So try again.

Ermm.....

Both killing mobs in West of Bree, mob level level is 15. Character 1, mostly one shot. Character 2, as many as four shots. Both characters are level 20.

[TiberiasKirk]

Ermm.....

Your right about that, but doing 1/4 damage is going to make things go slower. Not sure why you can't see his point

[Joedangod]

Your right about that, but doing 1/4 damage is going to make things go slower. Not sure why you can't see his point

...yes....things will go slower....

They're not going to be slow though, are they? In fact they're still gonna be pretty quick. Actually, it does seem like Hunter is now roughly in line with red champion at level 20:



And



Both using their respective level 20 sets from the tavern dude with 5 ranks of their primary stat tomes applied.

So kudos to the devs for doing some low level comparative class balnce there.

[siipperi]

Wish they would halve skill damage/double morale pools of mobs on lower levels. Gameplay is simply boring till very high levels, after if you gear yourself even mediocre its still boring lol. One shotting mob on lower levels is not fun gameplay. I would rather just skip that BS if combat doesn't matter.

[TiberiasKirk]

...yes....things will go slower....

They're not going to be slow though, are they? In fact they're still gonna be pretty quick. Actually, it does seem like Hunter is now roughly in line with red champion at level 20:



Both using their respective level 20 sets from the tavern dude with 5 ranks of their primary stat tomes applied.

So kudos to the devs for doing some low level comparative class balnce there.

Then neither of you get it, changes like this cause player dissatisfaction. Making it take longer to level up isn't going to help the game sustain its player base.

Low level game play isn't about shooting mobs on the landscape, its about learning mechanics and fundamentals, which doesn't take very long. Its already boring as some people say.
Making it take longer isn't a move in the right direction.

[Giliodor]

Then neither of you get it, changes like this cause player dissatisfaction. Making it take longer to level up isn't going to help the game sustain its player base.

Wrong. World of Warcraft recently increased mob health drastically, initially to the dismay of everyone. A week or so after the update, however, people found out that the leveling experience had become much more enjoyable. Granted, this was also due to another factor, but clearly, taking longer to level isn't nearly as detrimental to the leveling experience as you claim.

[Joedangod]

Low level game play isn't about shooting mobs on the landscape, its about learning mechanics and fundamentals, which doesn't take very long.

And one can totally start learning the fundamentals of a rotation whilst 1 shotting mobs.


People will definitely be dissatisfied with anything though.

[TiberiasKirk]

And one can totally start learning the fundamentals of a rotation whilst 1 shotting mobs.


People will definitely be dissatisfied with anything though.

I don't think either of us know what level the one shotting will stop, but it will stop and if people WANT TO practice their rotation they can always do it against a training dummy or do something more challenging.

It isn't for us to decide how much someone else needs to practice. This is a function of player dedication, not a requirement to play a game casually.

I'm more concerned with long term survival of the game than if everyone is forced to get good at it.

[Joedangod]

I don't think either of us know what level the one shotting will stop, but it will stop and if people WANT TO practice their rotation they can always do it against a training dummy or do something more challenging.

I started leveling a new hunter when the U19 changes kicked in. 1 shots have so far continued up to level 81, they might stop around 90 due to mob morale ballooning in HD and beyond.

[dwarfThar]

Wow, this is the kind of game destroying effect that I was afraid of. Changes made with no regard to how they really affect everything in the game from top to bottom.

Where do your end game players come from? Most will level up and with numbers like that, far fewer people will stick with this game meaning game death in years to come, but still eventual game death.

Excellent post, nice range on your numbers too, Definitely an A.

Are you seriously implying that low to mid-level hunters one-shotting everything in sight is good game design and taking this away will destroy the game?!

[TiberiasKirk]

Wrong. World of Warcraft recently increased mob health drastically, initially to the dismay of everyone. A week or so after the update, however, people found out that the leveling experience had become much more enjoyable. Granted, this was also due to another factor, but clearly, taking longer to level isn't nearly as detrimental to the leveling experience as you claim.

Wow Can afford to loose players. Comparing our player base to theirs is like comparing a truck full of apples to a few oranges.

Wow has maybe still 10 million players.

Steam numbers are in the thousands. With a player base that is more than 10 times bigger for sure, most probably 100 times bigger or more, they can do what they want.
They might have made a business decision to limit the player base based on limited hardware resources.

If LOTRO is doing that with a much smaller player base the game is likely going to die sooner than later.

[Bragolos]

Perhaps this is already mentioned in another form earlier in this topic, but today I logged in at Bullroarer with my longtime Hunter toon, on which I never stopped playing the Red line. I did not do extensive test or calculations, just making sure that the changed traits were optimized again. All other things were exactly the same as on live (I also had just one base damage rune), and unfortunately one thing really stood out as a not-so-pleasant difference:

Improved penetrating shot tiptool minimum damage on live: around 20K
Improved penetrating shot tiptool minimum damage on Bullroarer: around 15K

That is quite a nerf I'd say. Am i missing something here? Swift Bow Damage is upped a little bit, that's good, but does not compensate for base damage change in Penetrating shot this big.