Warden Feedback Thread

[gaara908776]

Here is couple of parses I did:

'DPS target dummy > DPS target dummy (2m 59.7s); Apexofinsanity - Dmg: 9.541M; DPS: 53,092;'

'DPS target dummy > DPS target dummy (3m 0.2s); Apexofinsanity - Dmg: 10.04M; DPS: 55,737;'

'DPS target dummy > DPS target dummy (3m 0.6s); Apexofinsanity - Dmg: 9.401M; DPS: 52,060;'

'DPS target dummy > DPS target dummy (2m 59.8s); Apexofinsanity - Dmg: 9.067M; DPS: 50,432;'

'DPS target dummy > DPS target dummy (3m 0.1s); Apexofinsanity - Dmg: 9.244M; DPS: 51,341;'

'DPS target dummy > DPS target dummy (3m 0.4s); Apexofinsanity - Dmg: 9.345M; DPS: 51,789;'


https://imgur.com/a/LMZ5qlF with CA breakdown

Some of the big bleed power should be spread over other gambits,and I feel like melee attack should be doing less dmg than 5builders gambit.

With less lag and no delay on masteris and getting more used to rotation avarage of 54-55k might be possible.

If someone is getting higher perhaps they can provide some insight.

I hope devs look into martial fury bleeds and like some have sugested to increase their proc chance as its far too random considering you dont use same DoT offten.Or preferably in my opinion replace it with 20-15% mitigation bypass considering most of other classes have similar traits.

And look into gold lvl 85 earring,as few lucky wardens that have it will have insane advantage over those that dont have it.

Add initial dot hit to every dot gambit to help with upfront damage,buff aoe dots a bit with slight nerfs to spear ones so overall value is not changes but ST ones are still left with more dmg than aoe.You can take that dmg from auto attacks.With 20-15% mitigation bypass instead martial fury,and if FI set gets scaled warden with warden tank that is debuffing could achive similar dps to hunters wich imo is fair considering its melee and dot based class,champ would be tiny bit behind.Without mitigation bypass other classes will still do 20% more dmg in raid but i guess even these changes are good and i could live with it till next balance pass.

On BR there is currently a level 115 FI set that has the same bonus as the Revered Warden's earring. The vendor is in Minas Tirith at the main gate.

Regarding DPS, could you send me a PM regarding your rotation? My average has been between 49k-52k which seems to be slightly lower than yours. Even my 52k parse was about 40% critical chance. I've been incredibly unlucky with double procs on BR so maybe that's part of the issue? But I'm mastery capped, have 140k Finesse and 70k crit on BR so Idk what more I could do to be averaging 55k.

[Osglinthor]

On BR there is currently a level 115 FI set that has the same bonus as the Revered Warden's earring. The vendor is in Minas Tirith at the main gate.

Regarding DPS, could you send me a PM regarding your rotation? My average has been between 49k-52k which seems to be slightly lower than yours. Even my 52k parse was about 40% critical chance. I've been incredibly unlucky with double procs on BR so maybe that's part of the issue? But I'm mastery capped, have 140k Finesse and 70k crit on BR so Idk what more I could do to be averaging 55k.

Y i was aware of FI sets on br just not sure if they will go live,so with warden tank we are in prety good spot just missing that 15 20% mitigation bypass so light dots hit naked target also.Would still require work on finesse requirement.

My avarage from these 6 parses is 52.4k,only difference to stats is i was runing with ~80k crit cant remember exact number but i doubt extra magnitude provides big increase.I was also using 2.5% attack duration runes.I am also quite unlucky when it comes to double procs.Rotation is basicly from highest hiting dot>to lowest one,with adapting to cd on masteris from there.I just try to avoid using fist shiled mastery to start anything since it has insane delay,much more than others.I just asume with less lag/delay one could squeze out 1-2k more dps to reach 54-55k avarage.I also trait for 3% crit chance from yellow but you do it too probably.I might post some more parses later.

[siipperi]

Seems warden needs good 10-15% DPS nerf by nerffing highest damaging skills a lot. Also nerf 3x bleed pulse set to 2x.

[Osglinthor]

Seems warden needs good 10-15% DPS nerf by nerffing highest damaging skills a lot. Also nerf 3x bleed pulse set to 2x.

Nerfing 3x bleed to 2x would just dumb down class as there would be no time for more stuff in rotation.We sure can nerf damage a bit more but then we can nerf ranged dps bit more and nerf their brust by insane amount.Ward/champ with these changes will still only be viable with new FI set warden tank or one with earring.When content stops being melee unfriendly we can talk about ranged always having edge in dps over melee.Until then these changes should go trough.They could just even out dots a bit more,reduce finesse requirement from 200k to reasonable amount and add 20-15% mitigation bypass in exhange for current martial fury trait.If you were to do calculation on 0% mitigation target with what people claim hunters do you would realise that in ideal situation they would be 5-10% above hunter wich evens out in current content.Now would damage be high overall is probably true but one can not compare enrage timers on fight after all progression is done.

[gaara908776]

Nerfing 3x bleed to 2x would just dumb down class as there would be no time for more stuff in rotation.We sure can nerf damage a bit more but then we can nerf ranged dps bit more and nerf their brust by insane amount.Ward/champ with these changes will still only be viable with new FI set warden tank or one with earring.When content stops being melee unfriendly we can talk about ranged always having edge in dps over melee.Until then these changes should go trough.They could just even out dots a bit more,reduce finesse requirement from 200k to reasonable amount and add 20-15% mitigation bypass in exhange for current martial fury trait.If you were to do calculation on 0% mitigation target with what people claim hunters do you would realise that in ideal situation they would be 5-10% above hunter wich evens out in current content.Now would damage be high overall is probably true but one can not compare enrage timers on fight after all progression is done.

TBH after these changes, in a raid Warden/Champ will BARELY be keeping up with RK's in a raid setting after their nerf. Also, TY Osglinthor for the tip on the attack duration runes, those are actually making a good bit of difference. Rotation feels quite a bit more fluid with this.

[Krindel]

BTW, did you know, that Abyss +3 DoT armour set has 2nd invisible bonus for 4 equiped pieces? There is also +25% bleed damage, so we have the same set bonuses from Abyss set as from Throne set. With current bleeds this bonus have become very potent.

There is huge gap between wardens dps with or without this armour set. Set bonuses should never be that strong, I guess bonus should be +1 DoT pulse max. However we need 32s bleed duration for full gambit rotation and I think now is the time, when devs can solve this problem once and for all.

Incorporate +2DoT pulse into the red trait branch or increase default DoT duration from 16s to 24s, also adjust numbers on Abyss and Throne armour sets, reduce dot pulse to +1 and bleed damage to +10%.

[RicoFTW]

BTW, did you know, that Abyss +3 DoT armour set has 2nd invisible bonus for 4 equiped pieces? There is also +25% bleed damage, so we have the same set bonuses from Abyss set as from Throne set. With current bleeds this bonus have become very potent.

There is huge gap between wardens dps with or without this armour set. Set bonuses should never be that strong, I guess bonus should be +1 DoT pulse max. However we need 32s bleed duration for full gambit rotation and I think now is the time, when devs can solve this problem once and for all.

Incorporate +2DoT pulse into the red trait branch or increase default DoT duration from 16s to 24s, also adjust numbers on Abyss and Throne armour sets, reduce dot pulse to +1 and bleed damage to +10%.

I have not noticed any *invisible* damage bonus. They have increased spear line bleeds in Build 1, nothing new. And if you equip 4x Abyss DoT pulses set and 2x Throne pieces for +25% bleed damage, your spear bleeds are actually lower than with 4/2 Abyss due to loss of mastery.

[Anduil]

Redline

I did some further DPS testing yesterday. After some warm-up, I did 10 concentrated parses in a row with the following results:

52.163 / 54.059 / 52.534 / 52.205 / 52.132 / 52.233 / 51.475 / 50.658 / 50.707 / 52.780

Average: 52.095

Breakdown of best parse: https://1drv.ms/u/s!ArPjz3cVu4X3sy-1SOrSL5r4AjrK

Breakdown of worst parse: https://1drv.ms/u/s!ArPjz3cVu4X3sy4w04YQK7sNJD0v

Breakdown of all other parses available on request.

Stats: 223k Mastery / 73k Crit / 138k Finesse / T2-Capped Phys Mit / ~ 45% Tac Mit / all consumables
Gear: Raid +3 Dot Set / Sword: Raid Rune of Striking / Javelin: Rune of Power / no use of Lorien jewels, great river jewels nor alike / no momentum trait-swap
Build: Red / Yellow till +4 Crit-Chance / Blue till 20% Light-Damage. Details: https://1drv.ms/u/s!ArPjz3cVu4X3szCC9FwZfPBt-iz6

As Osglinthors parses deliver similar results, I´d say an average of 52k DPS is realisitc, while 54k - 56k parses require an amount of dobble-procs above average.

As for rotation, the following damage analysis shows the "theoretically" ideal rotation from highest dps contribution to lowest: https://1drv.ms/u/s!ArPjz3cVu4X3szKA77vkX5osxM25
Personally, I modify this rotation a bit, due to better fitting of mastery cooldowns: https://1drv.ms/u/s!ArPjz3cVu4X3szGpL0VGcKCT4X6V
OFC, after PB you will have some seconds left until next round of rotation starts. Fill this time with whatever fits in the situation (Marked & Diminished Target refresh / double wall of steel / impressive flourish etc.)

Keeping in mind that - as Imbrahil already said - those parses represent stationary fights, I think overall Warden DPS is in a good spot right now, but in need of some further fine-tuning.

As for distribution of damage per Gambit in a rotation, I think it´s to much focused on PA-Line. The 3 Gambits PA, MB and US deliver around 45% of the total damage, while the other 6-8 Gambits deliver 55%.
I would suggest to distribute the damage more balanced, reducing PA-Line by around 15% and re-distribute the damage to SOV-Line and AOE-Line (focus).
A good start would be to give SOV-Line and AOE-Line their Initial Light Damage / Tick back. This is needed for a better Burst / DoT proportion and better threat-management while tanking (as long as you don´t work on a change on threat-management with better threat-multipliers in blue line).

Another point, it would be interesting to know if it´s WAI that Proc-Dots do on average 37% less damage than regular Dots, while Proc-Bleeds do the same damage as regular Bleeds. This is confusing.

Further on, as many others have stated, finesse requirements in raids need to be looked at. At least the double check. No trouble on dummys, but anyoing in raids.
I also would prefer a mitigation bypass over dobble-proc-chance to elemniate double-rng, in this regard I second Osgilinthors proposal.

Last but not least, I second Krindels comment about the strength of armour-set-boni. Build the majority of whatever makes classes viable in their trait-trees or trait-boni, and let set-boni play a minor role. A bonus. This counts for all classes.


Blueline

I appreciate most changes, still I have further suggestions. Some of them may already have been stated by others, I will try and focus on the most important ones.

• Use the chance now and completely disconnect the Mitigation-Part from DC. It should never have been connected. As compensation, give us 1 survival/panic gambit and 1 survival/panic button with appropriate CDs. As others have stated, we have 2 completely useless capstones which leave room for those things.
  .
• Raise buff-duration from 30 to 40 seconds. Keep in mind that 23 / 32 / 22 / 33 masteries are already on high pressure in any current tanking rotation. In a future rotation, Impressive Flourish and Maddening Strike (gambits that currently nobody uses) have to be integrated. As others have already stated, it will be next to imbossible to keep up the most important BPE-Buffs, Mit-Buffs, Self-Heals, Morale-Taps, Debuff-Javelins, situational SI and some AOE Dots in a 30 second timeframe.
  .
• Dance of War. The Animation itself and its duration is and has always been ridiculous. Please rework the animation and make it 50% faster.
  .
• Yellow AvM Raid-Set 4-Pieces-Bonus: please change the +Duration (which will be obsolete) to -15% Debuff Marked and Diminished Target (as long as you don´t integrate major part of this in the yellow trait itself, see above). Some might say there is a scaled 115 FI Set with that bonus, but I do not consider this Set as an appropriate alternative. Just compare the pieces statwise. Less armor, less mainstat, unwanted stats (BPE, Mitigations), pure morale instead of vitality, which alone means a loss of around 7k resistence and over 8k base moral.
  .
• Finally, I second all that has been already said about uselessness of flat +rating to mitigations / crit-def, and outdated magnitute of self-heals & moral-taps.

Cheers,
Vala

[B749]

So I'm gonna go out on a limb here and assume this is not WAI:



Funny though, absorbing all physical damage

It happens when I trait the blue line Impressive Flourish trait, makes both Impressive Flourish (23) and Maddening Strike (232) give +102001% Physical Mitigation.

Bugs aside though, I appreciate the work being done on Blue Warden. 20% passive morale isn't the most elegant solution but it gets the job done. I would have preferred to see more % mitigations come from active gambit use rather than passives though. The blue line is in a better spot now that you added a ranged ST taunt, but it needs at least a panic skill, such as a potent defensive CD (definitely make this blue line exclusive). Such as -50% incoming damage for 10s on a 150s cd, doesn't need to be massive since wrd is quite powerful in terms of self healing, but at least something to pop when you know things are about to go bad!

The main reason why Wardens don't get the tank spot in current endgame aside from the lack of defensive CD skill for panic moments is simply the way that endgame is designed, with bosses ignoring bpe quite often. That's bad news if your whole class design is based around being able to buff your bpe and self heal through the remaining hits! Though it's absolutely possible to beat current raid endgame (Abyss of Mordath T2c) with a Warden main tank; we've done that and I'm sure other people have as well (I've seen proof from another group on forums in fact). It's just a lot harder than with a 'proper' tank

[Krindel]

I have not noticed any *invisible* damage bonus. They have increased spear line bleeds in Build 1, nothing new. And if you equip 4x Abyss DoT pulses set and 2x Throne pieces for +25% bleed damage, your spear bleeds are actually lower than with 4/2 Abyss due to loss of mastery.

PROOF

[Kaeneth]

BTW, did you know, that Abyss +3 DoT armour set has 2nd invisible bonus for 4 equiped pieces? There is also +25% bleed damage, so we have the same set bonuses from Abyss set as from Throne set. With current bleeds this bonus have become very potent.

There is huge gap between wardens dps with or without this armour set. Set bonuses should never be that strong, I guess bonus should be +1 DoT pulse max. However we need 32s bleed duration for full gambit rotation and I think now is the time, when devs can solve this problem once and for all.

Incorporate +2DoT pulse into the red trait branch or increase default DoT duration from 16s to 24s, also adjust numbers on Abyss and Throne armour sets, reduce dot pulse to +1 and bleed damage to +10%.

+1

The first thought the comes to my mind is simply replacing honed spikes with a +2 DoT pulse trait in red. Even with red in a better spot, that skill is still mostly useless to have.

Overall I think warden is feeling much better with this beta than it currently is on live. The single target taunt has been a great addition, and the extra moral and mitigation is providing a noticeable difference. As far as blue is concerned the only other thing that comes to my mind is what others have mentioned about our self heals being kind of low now. I like how red is starting to look too, just please take a look at the significant difference between set bonus vs. no set bonus. Thanks for the work that's being put into the warden, I feel much more motivated to play mine now than I did before.

[Osglinthor]

BTW, did you know, that Abyss +3 DoT armour set has 2nd invisible bonus for 4 equiped pieces? There is also +25% bleed damage, so we have the same set bonuses from Abyss set as from Throne set. With current bleeds this bonus have become very potent.

There is huge gap between wardens dps with or without this armour set. Set bonuses should never be that strong, I guess bonus should be +1 DoT pulse max. However we need 32s bleed duration for full gambit rotation and I think now is the time, when devs can solve this problem once and for all.

Incorporate +2DoT pulse into the red trait branch or increase default DoT duration from 16s to 24s, also adjust numbers on Abyss and Throne armour sets, reduce dot pulse to +1 and bleed damage to +10%.

I have noticed that,back when raid was being released and was experimenting with 4x raid 2x throne combo.I have also bugged it but doubt that does anything.Still would prefer it to stay,then again ideal solution would be putting +2 pulses to traits(and nerfing raid to +1 dot) and replacing spear shiled gambit with %bleed increase and replace fist gambit damage with % light dot increase but look for same dmg numbers we have now.Just so there is some progresion in legacies and traits as of right now javelin does nothing and sword only has 2 legacies.

[Krindel]

On live server, "Ranged Offensive and Combination strike" apply Tier 1 "Suppression" debuff (-2% outgoing damage) and "Ranged Boar's Rush" apply Tier 2 (-4% outgoing damage), you will get T3 (-7% outgoing damage) by using another "Ranged Boar's Rush". Also you can renew debuff by using "Ranged Boar's Rush".


On Bullroarer you have to build "Suppression" debuff by using gambits in right order - "Ranged Offensive Strike" -> T1, "Ranged Combination Strike" -> T2, "Ranged Boars Rush" -> T3. "Ranged Combination Strike" and "Ranged Boar's Rush" do not apply any debuff if you use them on target without previous debuff tier.
Those 2 gambits should apply at least "Suppression Tier 1" if you do not use them in right order or more easilly - every gambit in Offensive Strike gambit line should increase debuff by 1 Tier. Also debuff can't be renewed by using another "Ranged Boar's Rush" and you have to wait until the end and then you have to start from scratch. Please at least bring back debuff renewal by using Boar's Rush, thank you very much.


I have noticed, that Battle Memory "Ranged Restoration" still don't have HoT and "Ranged Adroit Manoeuver" don't have buffs.

[BotLike]

On live server, "Ranged Offensive and Combination strike" apply Tier 1 "Suppression" debuff (-2% outgoing damage) and "Ranged Boar's Rush" apply Tier 2 (-4% outgoing damage), you will get T3 (-7% outgoing damage) by using another "Ranged Boar's Rush". Also you can renew debuff by using "Ranged Boar's Rush".

Have you checked if those outgoing dmg debuffs are multiplicative or additive ?

Iirc , on live they are additive , so there was not much need to maintain them. Perhaps they changed that and that's why they made it slightly more complex ?

[Me_the_Third]

It would be great if warden attack duration could be standardized. Warden is a heavily rhythm based class, and having slightly different attack duration between stances and trait lines is annoying. Converting everything to a -10-20% standard would be nice.

[Constrictions]

It needs to be stated here that warden should never get passive mitigations as traitline bonus. That defeats whole design of the active tank class.

Since when is being an avoidance tank the same as being an 'active tank'?

The gambit system was meant to compliment the wardens means of preventing damage (which was for the most part, passive*), by putting the thrust of the wardens aggro management on a pro-active playstyle. By extension, it was (and is) a great system to introduce novel ways of preventing things like stuns, and other forms of CC (disarms etc). I just can't figure out how you think the gambit system ever implied that all of our avoidances/mitigations need to be stripped from character/class traits and placed on gambits and skills?

Again - The gambit system was designed primarily as a means to manage aggro, not as a means of maintaining the minimum standard of defence required of a tank*. Given that our primary means of mitigation was avoidance stats, Graalx anticipated a mitigation gap, and compensated for this by giving us leeches/morale taps and self heals (which even gave us an edge over guardians if we forsook managing threat). What he didn't factor in to his class design was unavoidable spike hits from raid bosses, uncapped stats in future expansions, or the total annihilation of threat management as a tanking mechanic.

Even with the dismantling of threat management as a game mechanic, it doesn't follow that we now ought to use the gambit system to make up all of our 'tank-level' defences. In most cases, gambits/skills getting avoidance rating/mitigation stats have been nothing but quick fixes, so that the devs could avoid having to rework how the warden scaled as it levelled up. Furthermore, the emphasis on keeping the bulk of our avoidance stats on gambits has really only ever fed into the keeping the mitigation gap a problem.

* see my previous post

[gaara908776]

Since when is being an avoidance tank the same as being an 'active tank'?

The gambit system was meant to compliment the wardens means of preventing damage (which was for the most part, passive*), by putting the thrust of the wardens aggro management on a pro-active playstyle. By extension, it was (and is) a great system to introduce novel ways of preventing things like stuns, and other forms of CC (disarms etc). I just can't figure out how you think the gambit system ever implied that all of our avoidances/mitigations need to be stripped from character/class traits and placed on gambits and skills?

Again - The gambit system was designed primarily as a means to manage aggro, not as a means of maintaining the minimum standard of defence required of a tank*. Given that our primary means of mitigation was avoidance stats, Graalx anticipated a mitigation gap, and compensated for this by giving us leeches/morale taps and self heals (which even gave us an edge over guardians if we forsook managing threat). What he didn't factor in to his class design was unavoidable spike hits from raid bosses, uncapped stats in future expansions, or the total annihilation of threat management as a tanking mechanic.

Even with the dismantling of threat management as a game mechanic, it doesn't follow that we now ought to use the gambit system to make up all of our 'tank-level' defences. In most cases, gambits/skills getting avoidance rating/mitigation stats have been nothing but quick fixes, so that the devs could avoid having to rework how the warden scaled as it levelled up. Furthermore, the emphasis on keeping the bulk of our avoidance stats on gambits has really only ever fed into the keeping the mitigation gap a problem.

* see my previous post

This is pretty much spot on. I wouldn't say aggro management has totally been thrown out the window though. There is still some finesse to keeping aggro, it's just mostly centered around dps and taunt timing now. Today's Warden tanking is kind of reminiscent of Guardians at 75, where an improperly timed engage meant aggro was lost for 10+ seconds. However, I agree that going into a fight with little to no defense due to the fact that some people perpetuate the idea that Warden's were meant to gain all their defenses through gambits has only hurt the class. When I created my Warden at level 60, I wanna say there were 2-3 defensive Gambits that I'd keep up regularly. The rest of the time I'd just focus on aggro and morale leeches. Tbh, those 2-3 defensive gambit's I maintained weren't even necessary in most scenarios, it's just what separated an average Warden from a good one.

[siipperi]

Since when is being an avoidance tank the same as being an 'active tank'?

The gambit system was meant to compliment the wardens means of preventing damage (which was for the most part, passive*), by putting the thrust of the wardens aggro management on a pro-active playstyle. By extension, it was (and is) a great system to introduce novel ways of preventing things like stuns, and other forms of CC (disarms etc). I just can't figure out how you think the gambit system ever implied that all of our avoidances/mitigations need to be stripped from character/class traits and placed on gambits and skills?

Again - The gambit system was designed primarily as a means to manage aggro, not as a means of maintaining the minimum standard of defence required of a tank*. Given that our primary means of mitigation was avoidance stats, Graalx anticipated a mitigation gap, and compensated for this by giving us leeches/morale taps and self heals (which even gave us an edge over guardians if we forsook managing threat). What he didn't factor in to his class design was unavoidable spike hits from raid bosses, uncapped stats in future expansions, or the total annihilation of threat management as a tanking mechanic.

Even with the dismantling of threat management as a game mechanic, it doesn't follow that we now ought to use the gambit system to make up all of our 'tank-level' defences. In most cases, gambits/skills getting avoidance rating/mitigation stats have been nothing but quick fixes, so that the devs could avoid having to rework how the warden scaled as it levelled up. Furthermore, the emphasis on keeping the bulk of our avoidance stats on gambits has really only ever fed into the keeping the mitigation gap a problem.

* see my previous post

If you want to get abnormal levels of anything on warden (be it mitigations, ratings/%, avoids, etc) it should be actively build with gambits. Otherwise you might well go and play guardian.

[andys90]

There is huge gap between wardens dps with or without this armour set. Set bonuses should never be that strong, I guess bonus should be +1 DoT pulse max. However we need 32s bleed duration for full gambit rotation and I think now is the time, when devs can solve this problem once and for all.

Incorporate +2DoT pulse into the red trait branch or increase default DoT duration from 16s to 24s, also adjust numbers on Abyss and Throne armour sets, reduce dot pulse to +1 and bleed damage to +10%.

I agree this is one of the biggest remaining issues for warden DPS. Aside form the Catch 22 situation of needing the rewards in order to be viable for content in the first place, it means that each time these armour sets become obsolete, DPS is completely crippled.

I think your solution of reducing the item set bonus to +1 and incorporating the other +2 into traits is the way to go.
Perhaps 1 additional pulse added to lasting impression, bringing it to +2, then add the other as a traitline bonus?

[Constrictions]

If you want to get abnormal levels of anything on warden (be it mitigations, ratings/%, avoids, etc) it should be actively build with gambits.

1. Why?
2. How does this gel with the fundamental design and/or philosophy of the warden class?

Furthermore, it has been literal years since the warden was actually scaled adequately to current content. If your main conception of what's meant to be "normal" has been pretty much all post-isengard, then "abnormal" is likely to be a huge step in the right direction.

Let me reiterate the indisputable fact of the matter: Gambits were never intended to separate wardens from morale stacking hunters/burglars. Changing/keeping the warden in this way will simply propagate the classes issues.

This is pretty much spot on. I wouldn't say aggro management has totally been thrown out the window though. There is still some finesse to keeping aggro, it's just mostly centered around dps and taunt timing now. Today's Warden tanking is kind of reminiscent of Guardians at 75, where an improperly timed engage meant aggro was lost for 10+ seconds. However, I agree that going into a fight with little to no defense due to the fact that some people perpetuate the idea that Warden's were meant to gain all their defenses through gambits has only hurt the class. When I created my Warden at level 60, I wanna say there were 2-3 defensive Gambits that I'd keep up regularly. The rest of the time I'd just focus on aggro and morale leeches. Tbh, those 2-3 defensive gambit's I maintained weren't even necessary in most scenarios, it's just what separated an average Warden from a good one.

Thank you for commenting. It's good to see that I'm not alone on this.

[Constrictions]

Here's my feedback on the latest changes

• Increasing Warden DoTs by ~20%
• Warden Damage-over-time increased in strength

A buff in DoTs was probably warranted, but if that is still going to be the bulk of our DPS, then we can only expect that, eventually we'll see the same kinds of issues re-occurring that we saw with the dread terror raid. For example:

• Tank specced wardens fulfilling a competitive/superior DPS role compared to actual DPS/utility classes,
• DPS specced wardens dominating the melee DPS by extreme factors.

On this note, I want to point out also that DoT based DPS is too easy to maximise compared to up-front DPS styles. Performing maximum DPS as a red warden does not currently, and has not for some time, required as much cognitive effort as any other melee DPS.

Instead of raising DoT damage as much as you have, I would heavily recommend peeling back some of these DoT buffs to give a major buff to up-front damage on spear gambits, particularly things like Wardens Triumph (this should be the hardest hitting attack wardens have - over and above that of even a couple of DoTs, in my opinion), the offensive strike line, and maybe even the up-front damage on the power attack line too.

Further to this: The warden should not need to rely on having +DoT pulse set bonuses in order to perform a DPS role.

• Determination Specialization Bonus Changes:
* Removed Spear Damage Bonus
* +20% Max Morale*
* +5% Mitigation
• Impressive Flourish now grants +1% Physical Mitigation and +1% Tactical Mitigation
• Maddening Strike now grants +1% Physical Mitigation and +1% Tactical Mitigation
• Dance of War now grants +1% Physical Mitigation and
• Conviction now grants +1% Tactical Mitigation

These changes will be the death of the warden as an avoidance tank. I am strongly opposed to any of these listed changes that relate to +phys/tact mitigations, on the grounds that they are diametrically opposed to the wardens fundamental design. Wardens are meant to mitigate damage via avoidances NOT phys/tact mitigations beyond normal medium armour caps.

The warden needs something more like the following if its going to conform to its fundamental design:

• A significant, passive avoidance advantage that is over and above that of every other tank class
• A novel way of dealing with unavoidable spike hits (this could be through a gambit - say, at the cost of a passive avoidance advantage)
• Self heals redistributed through the entire persevere line, including Celebration of Skill and Conviction (which should ideally offer a heal that's scaled to be in-between Celebration of Skill and Restoration).

Walking into a fight, if the warden is going to have pretty much the same avoidance capabilities as every other tank, and the same mitigation values as every other tank, then there is no reason for us having self heals. In fact, given the way threat works, there's minimal reasons for us to even have the gambit system at that point. Why not just stick all our gambits on the skill bar like every other class?

The devs need to consider these questions: Whats the point of having self heals, the gambit system itself, or even having medium armour if wardens are just going to have mechanically identical avoidance capabilities, mitigations and threat management as all the other tanks?

Please do not water this class down even further than it unintentionally has been. You are at risk of ruining one of the most unique things that LOTRO came up with, that no other MMO did.

As for the morale buff, this is not as dire but should be introduced with caution:

• I suspect this morale buff wouldn't be needed if agility tanking gear was scaled to the same degree as might tanking gear. If wardens were to ever get the avoidance stats they need in order to be competitive tanks before the use of their gambits, then you wouldn't need to nerf agi tanking jewels (and thus, not even have to consider this morale buff), because there would be such a significant, intrinsic difference between blue wardens and tank-specced hunters/burglars anyway.
• Also, these kinds of 'buffs' have been the culprit of big disparities between tank classes ability to mitigate damage, especially in conjunction with certain buffs from other classes. The issue is that they provide too much of a bonus to too few classes/class group makeups, such that they inevitably contribute to the onset of a 'meta' raid composition which requires XYZ classes in ABC roles. I would heavily caution the devs on whether it is a good idea to use this kind of morale buff.

• Precise Blow damage-over-time now scales with weapon strength
• Piercing Strike damage-over-time now scales with weapon strength
• Spear of Virtue damage-over-time now scales with weapon strength

This is a really good change! Thank you!

[Xiangyuu]

Who noticed this?

[Anduil]

Who noticed this?

This is not new. Double-Cast legacy only works for Marked target, not for Diminished Target. Legacy WAI on live as on beta.

Cheers,

Vala

[gaara908776]

This is not new. Double-Cast legacy only works for Marked target, not for Diminished Target. Legacy WAI on live as on beta.

Cheers,

Vala

Vala,
I think you're missing the point he's trying to make. The set bonus claims Marked/Diminished target debuff is set to 15%. Not 25%. However the set bonus is making in 25%, which is incredibly OP and an obvious bug. It does the same on live. If you use a Revered Warden's earring and old FI set bonus in combo it stacks to the regular marked/diminished target debuff of 10% rather than replacing it. I.E. Warden's on live using the earring and FI set combo have the debuff set to -40%. The kinship, Chinese Friends on Brandywine used this buff stacking on a Warden in their kin who had 2x Revered Warden earrings during their progression for the insane debuff. DEV's will definitely need to look at this because it is in no way working as intended. The set bonus and earring bonus say "SETS MARKED/DIMINISHED TARGET DEBUFF TO 15%" not increases debuff by 15%.

[Osglinthor]

Vala,
I think you're missing the point he's trying to make. The set bonus claims Marked/Diminished target debuff is set to 15%. Not 25%. However the set bonus is making in 25%, which is incredibly OP and an obvious bug. It does the same on live. If you use a Revered Warden's earring and old FI set bonus in combo it stacks to the regular marked/diminished target debuff of 10% rather than replacing it. I.E. Warden's on live using the earring and FI set combo have the debuff set to -40%. The kinship, Chinese Friends on Brandywine used this buff stacking on a Warden in their kin who had 2x Revered Warden earrings during their progression for the insane debuff. DEV's will definitely need to look at this because it is in no way working as intended. The set bonus and earring bonus say "SETS MARKED/DIMINISHED TARGET DEBUFF TO 15%" not increases debuff by 15%.

As far as I know you cant stack earrings or earring/FI set since debuff gets cap at 27.5%.Was fixed way back during throne.And I guess set doesnt work exactly as described as it increases instead sets to said value.It can only be broken in pvp.For most DPS classes atm its quite irelevent if the debuff is 15% or 1000%.So putting this to 15% would have almost no impact on pve outside of light damage type.