Warden Feedback Thread

[Oelle]

Who noticed this?

sadly, all those setbonusses for wardens which state "debuff is set to 15%" always just made it 15% better.
And yes, thats OP and quite obviously so.
But still, it doesnt get used often, because uptime wasnt 100% and slow skills... Dont know why thats an important point for wardens, while LMs still use AC, which has the same just-partial uptime whenever possible on CD.
Now, with the increased uptime, this obvious bug has to get fixed even more urgent.

[Joedangod]

Now, with the increased uptime, this obvious bug has to get fixed even more urgent.

I'd say the bug doesn't need to be fixed but rather they need to just level cap the 85 earring and remove the set bonus from all future gear. If a class pulls competitive DPS like a warden does it shouldn't be capable of debuffing the mobs to this degree. 5-10% mit debuffs are fine for DPS to use, anything over that should purely be the realm of the support classes.

[Osglinthor]

I'd say the bug doesn't need to be fixed but rather they need to just level cap the 85 earring and remove the set bonus from all future gear. If a class pulls competitive DPS like a warden does it shouldn't be capable of debuffing the mobs to this degree. 5-10% mit debuffs are fine for DPS to use, anything over that should purely be the realm of the support classes.

And 5-10% is what you get as DPS unless you use earring(that might change if they decide to put more +dot pulses to traits).People have been bringing atention to earring for years now.15 20% on tank gear and only on tank gear or yellow would be fine.After that we would still look to either nerf fire debuffs/physical debuffs or give warden ~15-20% mitigation bypass so every dmg dealer has equal mitigation level target.After that you can balance DPS on each class a bit easier.

[Krindel]

Yellow traited Warden is support/ranged dps class, so he's supposed to have something strong in his arsenal, but you have to ensure, that this numbers are available only if you are yellow traited and numbers should be halved, if you are red or blue traited,. I think -10% mitigation if yellow traited vs. -5% mitigation if blue or red traited is well balanced. Please change set bonusses from lvl 85 Earring and FI armour set to something different.
- I have idea for yellow armour set bonus: Diminished Target now apply additional -10% lightning (light) mitigation debuff. This will help reduce difference between mobs mitigations in raid environment if all classes use theirs debuffs

- Also if debuff to critical defence don't work, change it to -Evade Rating debuff.
- Outgoing damage debuff from Warning Shot and "Suppression" should work as Burglars Disable, truly reduce Outgoing Damage by 5%

I would like to see some changes in passive buffs for warden and few suggestions, how to save avoidance tank:

• Remove + 20% morale buff, also remove morale bonus from all tank trait lines
• Remove + 5% mitigation buff - we are avoidance tanks, I think warden needs some mitigation buffs, because 50% vs 70% mitigation gap between Wrd and Grd is too big, but buffs to mitigation should be on gambits and cap at 55%.
• Remove mitigation buff from Deffiant Challenge
• Remove skill Never Surrender
• Passive buff Never Surrender - Next full hit (no B/P/E or partial B/P/E) will be halved, 5s DoT -5% morale/s, you cannot gain this effect more than once every 5s. This will be our only One-shot protection.
• +20% Incomming Healing - Passive buff. We have low mitigations, but higher self heals. We should be able to compensate higher taken damage by our heal over time gambits and life taps. Scale up HoTs and Life Taps. This passive incomming healing buff will help heal through higher TPS
• +10% Partial Avoidance Mitigation - passive buff. We are avoidance tanks, this will help reduce TPS from attacks, that can be avoided.
• +10s Buff Duration

This changes are alternative to +morale and +mitigation buffs from 2nd beta build, I just try to offer different view on avoidance tanking. I wish tanking with warden can be different than tanking with guardian, but equally efficient.
Warden should focus on building aggro, self healing and good position.

[Oelle]

Yellow traited Warden is support/ranged dps class, so he's supposed to have something strong in his arsenal, but you have to ensure, that this numbers are available only if you are yellow traited and if you are red or blue traited, numbers should be halved. I think -10% mitigation if yellow traited vs. -5% mitigation if blue or red traited is well balanced. Please change set bonusses from lvl 85 Earring and FI armour set to something different.
- I have idea for yellow armour set bonus: Diminished Target now apply additional -10% lightning (light) mitigation debuff. This will help reduce difference between mobs mitigations in raid environment if all classes use theirs debuffs

- Also if debuff to critical defence don't work, change it to -Evade Rating debuff.
- Outgoing damage debuff from Warning Shot and "Suppression" should work as Burglars Disable, truly reduce Outgoing Damage by 5%

I would like to see some changes in passive buffs for warden and few suggestions, how to save avoidance tank role:

• Remove + % morale buff from all tank trait lines
• Remove + 5% mitigation - we are awoidance tanks, I think warden needs some mitigation buffs, because 50% vs 70% mitigation gap between Wrd and Grd is too big, but buffs to mitigation should be on gambits and cap at 55%.
• Remove mitigation buff from Deffiant Challenge
• Remove skill Never Surrender
• Passive buff Never Surrender - Next full hit (no B/P/E or partial B/P/E) will be halved, 5s DoT -5% morale/s, you cannot gain this effect more than once every 5s. This will be our only One-shot protection.
• +20% Incomming Healing - Passive buff. We have low mitigations, this is reason why we have our self heals. We should be able to compensate higher taken damage by our heal over time gambits and life taps. Scale up HoTs and Life Taps. This passive buff will help healers with higher TPS
• +10% Partial Avoidance Mitigation - passive buff. We are avoidance tanks, this will help reduce TPS from attacks, that can be avoided.
• +10s Buff Duration

Warden should focus on building aggro, self healing and good position, so he can also block and parry attacks

avoidance doesnt help, if all relevant bossattacks ignore avoidance completely.
Therefore, any tank needs high effective morale to survive those. Which means a combination of high morale and mits. As much as I'd like to have wardens as avoidance tank, avoidance tanks just dont work in endgame. Therefore, the change to mits and morale that only applies to tankline is great.
and btw: incoming healing doesnt really matter. healers heal enough. incoming healing is only needed, if the tank has a huge morale pool AND takes huge amounts of damage OR, if there are debuffs to incoming healing that can be countered with incoming healing buffs.

[Constrictions]

Yellow traited Warden is support/ranged dps class, so he's supposed to have something strong in his arsenal, but you have to ensure, that this numbers are available only if you are yellow traited and if you are red or blue traited, numbers should be halved. I think -10% mitigation if yellow traited vs. -5% mitigation if blue or red traited is well balanced. Please change set bonusses from lvl 85 Earring and FI armour set to something different.
- I have idea for yellow armour set bonus: Diminished Target now apply additional -10% lightning (light) mitigation debuff. This will help reduce difference between mobs mitigations in raid environment if all classes use theirs debuffs

- Also if debuff to critical defence don't work, change it to -Evade Rating debuff.
- Outgoing damage debuff from Warning Shot and "Suppression" should work as Burglars Disable, truly reduce Outgoing Damage by 5%

I would like to see some changes in passive buffs for warden and few suggestions, how to save avoidance tank:

• Remove + 20% morale buff, also remove morale bonus from all tank trait lines
• Remove + 5% mitigation buff - we are awoidance tanks, I think warden needs some mitigation buffs, because 50% vs 70% mitigation gap between Wrd and Grd is too big, but buffs to mitigation should be on gambits and cap at 55%.
• Remove mitigation buff from Deffiant Challenge
• Remove skill Never Surrender
• Passive buff Never Surrender - Next full hit (no B/P/E or partial B/P/E) will be halved, 5s DoT -5% morale/s, you cannot gain this effect more than once every 5s. This will be our only One-shot protection.
• +20% Incomming Healing - Passive buff. We have low mitigations, but higher self heals, I think also Incomming healing should be higher. We should be able to compensate higher taken damage by our heal over time gambits and life taps. Scale up HoTs and Life Taps. This passive incomming healing buff will help healers with higher TPS
• +10% Partial Avoidance Mitigation - passive buff. We are avoidance tanks, this will help reduce TPS from attacks, that can be avoided.
• +10s Buff Duration

This changes are alternative to +morale and +mitigation buffs from 2nd beta build, I just try to offer different view on avoidance tanking. I wish tanking with warden can be different than tanking with guardian, but equally efficient.
Warden should focus on building aggro, self healing and good position.

Heavy armour is 60%, not 70% anymore.

avoidance doesnt help, if all relevant bossattacks ignore avoidance completely.

As much as I'd like to have wardens as avoidance tank, avoidance tanks just dont work in endgame.

That's not a fault with the class - it's a fault with instance design. Designing most bosses with unavoidable spike hits is a repetitive, and boring way to make content challenging. It also shows that the design team has been out of touch with the mechanics of any tank other than the Guardian. The warden cops the raw end of the stick, but its not the wardens fault that instances are being designed this way. Instances are meant to be built around the capabilities of the classes, not the other way around.

Wardens ARE avoidance tanks. Every single facet of the class was designed around this when the class was created. To try and change this is basically to gut the class and create a new one with the same name. This is where Sliiperi's statement about 'you might as well go play a guardian if that's what you want' would be appropriate.


Here's the easiest and most sensible solution: The devs need to stop designing instances as though wardens don't exist.

[Krindel]

I am counting Guardian as 70% mitigation class, since Guardian can maintain +10% fortification buff nearly 100% uptime. Also Captain has high damage reduction, so incoming damage is much lower.

Incoming Healing should help Warden survive high ammount of taken damage, if high spike damage will be distributed into damage over time, so healer and warden will have time to deal with increased damage. Captain has +incomming healing buffs since Helms Deep, +20% increase for warden isn’t problem.

+10% Partial Mitigation should help with overal taken damage, it will mainly increase survivability on trash fights, where we will suffer much higher damage without Defiant Challenge mitigation per target buff.

For tactical hits, warden should get additional buff +5% to tactical mitigation or -15% incomming tactical damage on gambit (Shield Tactics for example)

Also why Warden as avoidance tank has lower possible avoidance caps than Guardian and Captain? Avoidance tank = higher partial avoidance?

[Oelle]

Heavy armour is 60%, not 70% anymore.

well... on paper yes. practically, guards have 100% uptime for ~75% mits (depending on group can range from 72 to 78%), so calling them 60% cap is quite far from reality.
Cappies have permanent -15% incoming damage on top of their 60% mits, which is like 66% mits permanently, increased by the fact that those -15% stack with -10% from scrolls and several other active reductions that make them even stronger. Plus, they have a herald with 3% mits increase. Practically, this makes cappies permanent mits be 70%.
The only heavy armour tank that does not have permanent 70% mits is champion. And there is a reason why no one takes champtanks serious: They suck.

So while you are technically correct, that heavy armour is capped at 60%, all actually regularly used heavy armour tanks realistically run with 70%+ mits.

That's not a fault with the class - it's a fault with instance design. Designing most bosses with unavoidable spike hits is a repetitive, and boring way to make content challenging. It also shows that the design team has been out of touch with the mechanics of any tank other than the Guardian. The warden cops the raw end of the stick, but its not the wardens fault that instances are being designed this way. Instances are meant to be built around the capabilities of the classes, not the other way around.

Wardens ARE avoidance tanks. Every single facet of the class was designed around this when the class was created. To try and change this is basically to gut the class and create a new one with the same name. This is where Sliiperi's statement about 'you might as well go play a guardian if that's what you want' would be appropriate.


Here's the easiest and most sensible solution: The devs need to stop designing instances as though wardens don't exist.

Thats completely correct. I just dont see devs changing the way they create instances. I'd like if they did that and made all enemies skills avoidable (which obviously increases the damage an average hit does if unavoided), but I dont see it happen. I totally hate it, if anything ignores mechanics just to make it more simple. Mechanics are there to be fought with, not without. Doesnt matter if its coded, that NPCs ignore players mits, avoidances, whatever or if players can ignore mechanics because of too good equipment and bad scaling... I hate it. Mechanics that can easily be ignored shouldnt exist at all.

[Joedangod]

Mechanics that can easily be ignored shouldnt exist at all.

Part of the problem with allowing boss attacks to be avoided is the fact that Guardians don't really struggle to get exceptionally high avoidances either. At 105 we were able to build a Guardian with 70k morale who had 100% combined partial avoidance chance, we're not quite at that level again but we're not that far from it either.

[Oelle]

Part of the problem with allowing boss attacks to be avoided is the fact that Guardians don't really struggle to get exceptionally high avoidances either. At 105 we were able to build a Guardian with 70k morale who had 100% combined partial avoidance chance, we're not quite at that level again but we're not that far from it either.

thats right. but with new cap values or formula changes, that shouldnt really be an issue. If wardens have 20-30% higher partials, and higher ratings due to gambit buffs, all thats needed is making the formulas in a way that only lead to 70-80% sum of partials with high rating builds (and obviously a stop from flooding us with awesome gear that makes those higher caps irrelevant directly after release). For a warden, its much easier to reach higher ratings than for any other tank. so if the formulas get changed in a way that allows wardens to have 100% partials, where guard and cappy have 50% full avoidance, but only 50-60% partials, then wardens would take the smallest highest hits, if that makes sense.

I still feel, that full avoidance has too high chances. For all tanks. its very easy to get all those three ratings to hardcap of 13% full avoidance and with that and those passive bonusses from traits, most tanks are already at 50% full avoidance. Thats huge and imo the main reason, why avoidance has to get ignored by bosses. I dont see an issue with panicskills allowing 100% avoidance for 15 seconds with 2min cd... even if there is two of these skills, thats just 25% uptime. sure, half a minute not taking any damage is huge... but if bossfights take 5min+, thats okay. They just SHOULD take 5min+. Or all these panicskills need a nerf imo. There shouldnt be a single bossfight anywhere, where a boss goes softenrage and dies half a minute later, when that half minute can be completely ignored with panicskills by good raids. I'd even suggest to make those panicskills a bit more active, like 100% block for only the next attack, whatever that attack is. Or for just 3-5 seconds. obviously combined with a shorter cooldown. skills that allow ignorance of incoming damage for a long duration only work good with long fights...

Alternatively, bosses should just ignore full avoidance, but face partial avoidance completely with their skills. Which means, damage and debuffs always get applied, just in varying numbers. As wardens have lower full but higher partial avoidance, that would make them viable. they'd take higher average damage, but lower spikes.

[Erethal]

Seriously, what is going on? In the latest build, yellow warden gambit damage has been nerfed substantially. I don't understand why this is happening. They are down at least 30% from live numbers. When the general consensus is that yellow line is not worth playing as is, why are resources being directed to nerfing them? Is this somehow an unintended side-effect of other changes? Just to be clear on how convoluted the damage numbers have become for the yellow warden, currently the highest-damage gambit is Ranged Boot. I've actually enjoyed playing the yellow warden on live, and seem to be about the only one, but even I'm getting turned off by this.

[Osglinthor]

Will post detailed analysis on what should be further done with red line to make it competetive DPS later this week.

[Krindel]

Gambit flow in this build is very bad.
Delay after Impressive Flourish, Piercing Strike and newly War-Cry, Brink of Victory and Desolation is very long. Surety of Death is ok now.
If blue traited, Impressive Flourish, War Cry, Brink of Victory and Desolation lag after animation is disastrous for aggro/buff rotation
+7% light damage from Carvings do not increase upfront ligt (main hand damage) on War Cry, Brink of Victory, Surety of Death and Dessolation
Abyss armour set bonus "Marked Target and Diminished Target duration increased by 10s" is buged, it now increase duration of "Diminished Target" by 20s
Warden's Triumph has duration only 20s, while Adroit Manoeuvre has 25s

[jomanjy]

Gambit flow in this build is very bad.
Delay after Impressive Flourish, Piercing Strike and newly War-Cry, Brink of Victory and Desolation is very long. Surety of Death is ok now.
If blue traited, Impressive Flourish, War Cry, Brink of Victory and Desolation lag after animation is disastrous for aggro/buff rotation
+7% light damage from Carvings do not increase upfront ligt (main hand damage) on War Cry, Brink of Victory, Surety of Death and Dessolation
Abyss armour set bonus "Marked Target and Diminished Target duration increased by 10s" is buged, it now increase duration of "Diminished Target" by 20s
Warden's Triumph has duration only 20s, while Adroit Manoeuvre has 25s

^^^^ this

also i'd like to add for redline:

ST light bleeds could use a nerf.

buff the aoe bleeds again.

martial fury trait is bad imo, either increase the proc chance or change the trait to + % mitigation bypass

the bonus damage from using unerring strike after mighty blow and using mighty blow after unerring strike is still unscaled and very low.

morale taps needs a buff esp the offensive strike.

the power restoration from the dark before dawn skill is very low and not scaled.

[Hildilas]

@Krindel If they changed bosses so that a warden is able to tank it "easier" the guardian is able to go afk during the fight :3 They won't change boss mechanics anyway so pls just let them give us the 5% mits and 20% morale...for everything else they need to change the GAME and they won't do that.

They should buff all self heals, too. Scale everyting correctly to lvl 115. Maybe give us a good panic skill... And that's all...Don't desire sth that won't come true anyway and don't destroy sth many wardens really wanted since day 1.

Even with 5% mits AND +20% morale buff the BEST warden will still be a worse tank than the BEST guardian. They could even give us 20% inc healing too and it would still be just like that...
Think about it...with more morale you could slot inc healing essences or sth... We would have more viarity more options.
Hunter has +8% mits in the tree, burglars have 7% I think and Beos have 5%. It is time that we also get sth.

Oh and BTW...the Beo tank is at 65% phys mits in fight..just saying..also medium armor..just sayin...has a nice panic skill with 60% inc dd reduce just sayin...has 3 taunts with short cds...On live I rate the beo tank higher than the warden tank and he cannot even block and is bugged :3

[gaara908776]

Defiant Challenge Mitigation buff is not working at all. Promises +5% but doesn't apply 5% when used. Please fix this before live.

[Imbrahil]

Thanks for fixing our Legacies. I think the changes on Marked/Diminished Target and the corresponding items are a step in the right direction. Although there is some criticism regarding the +20% moral and +5% mitigation changes, I recommend keeping them. As others pointed out, given the current mechanics in T2C content, it's the only bandaid that will help us, if the mechanics themselfs are not to be changed. And in my opinion there is little chance, that the mechanics/the boss design will be changed in the near future. So +5%(+10% via Gambit) mitigation is needed to keep us somewhat on par with other tanks.



Before the class changes go live, please consider tweaking a few things:

- Bring back +10 seconds duration for Shield- and Fistgambits or change the duration of those Gambits by default. This is extremly important for fluent and efficient Warden Tank gameplay.

- Scale our HoTs and Moraltaps appropriately to level 115.

- Fix Defiant Challenge.

- Take a look at our Capstones in Redline and Blueline. People already pointed this out, so I refer to their posts.

- As others said, change the Martial Fury Trait. Increase the proc-chance, or even better: change it to a resistance-bypass or mitigation-bypass.


These are the most pressing remaining issues. I understand that your resources are limited and time is getting short, so I'm aware that some tuning may be delayed to the future. But if you could implement these things or even at least some of it, I would be very satisfied with this balancing pass and waiting for the next balancing pass won't be too bad

__________

A little bit off topic, but I dare to ask anyway: I see Vastin reply heavily to the Class-Threads he opened. Maybe we could have some replies from our Dev here too? Just give us a bit of insight on your thoughts, work and goals for the Warden, please. I would deeply appreciate a bit of communication But if your time is to scarce, I understand that too.

[Me_the_Third]

The ranged offensive strike line debuffs are really, really weak. -8% damage on a single target at a cost of 9 builders, 3 gambits, and some capstone adjacent traits is... not great.

[gaara908776]

A little bit off topic, but I dare to ask anyway: I see Vastin reply heavily to the Class-Threads he opened. Maybe we could have some replies from our Dev here too? Just give us a bit of insight on your thoughts, work and goals for the Warden, please. I would deeply appreciate a bit of communication But if your time is to scarce, I understand that too.

I also have been a big fan of Vastin's approach of being a bit more open with intent regarding the class changes. Friendlyhat, I think we'd all love to hear a bit from you as well again I understand if you're too busy but just want to let you know that we appreciate all the work you're doing and that we would love to hear what your goals are for the class. Most of us on the Warden forums are long time players dedicated to the progression of the class and don't bite :P most of us! Anyway, I'm glad to see the direction that Warden is taking in actually being a viable class to bring to groups again. I'll finally be able to sacrifice some of my Vit essences for incoming healing and maybe a bit extra b/p/e and DPS on BR is in a very solid spot just below Hunters.

[Osglinthor]

Considering I prefer red line warden or DPS warden to tanking I will post some sugestions for red line.Dont get me wrong I enjoy tanking on warden also and changes to blue will help us but cant do testing on tanking without group,changes are not bad overall TPS will go down,ST force taunt should be on a bit lower cd and defiant challenge mitigations should be separeted from force taunt.Maybe put them to Resounding challenge gambit with iternal CD similar how SI from shiled tactic works.Self heals and morale taps alongside few traits should be looked at.Duration of selfbuffs should be increased to encourage richer rotations.I would make more detailed sugestions but atm I am short on time,might do it later tho.

Back to redline:

I will restrain from sugestions to LIs as it has been said that changes to that will come in near future.

1.Initial dot hit should be added to power attack line and brought back to fist shiled and fist spear lines.This would help with upfront damage and aggro in tanking spec.DPS increase from tooltip would be ~12%.

2.Spear gambit damage traits sharpened spear and way of the spear should be changed to power attack,mighty blow and unering strike DoT damage with each giving 10% or maybe 12.5% and remove 25% we get on current abbys armor.Considering we already have 20% bleed damage trait in red line I would be in favor of a more unique change but that would require more work and resources.

3.Honed spikes should be changed to perhaps -20% attack duration to help with clunkiness.

4.Lasting impresion should give additional dot pulse and raid set or any setbonus in future should also give 1 for total of 32 sec dot duration or 28 without set bonus.That way that setbonus would still be good but not mandatory.

5.Martial fury trait should be replaced with -15% mitigation bypass.That would put ward on equal with other dps specs.And would still require more work to get to 0% light/physical mitigation compared to how easy it is to debuff fire.

6.Finesse requirment in lvl 115 t2c content is insane and needs to be looked at.This only applies to certain classes/skills and warden is in that group.

7.Current tooltip damage between same line gambits is quite fine however overall relation should be changed a bit.Atm total spear line tooltip is ~1.6 times fist spear line and ~1.9 times fist shiled line.Should be changed to ~1.3 and ~1.6.Adjusting those numbers should be quite easy.

8.Spear sweep/quick sweep should get increase in damage and onslaught should work with mighty blow and wall of steel with unering strike.That way aoe dps would get richer rotation.

First 6-7 points should be addresed in this pass.After those changes balancing dps should be a lot easier since one would just need to tweak numbers on dots for the most part.Most important of those is probably mitigation bypass and finesse requirment.Unless these get addresed asume in raid settings warden will always be at least 20% behind other dps specs.

Survivability of redline should be looked at however its almost completly irelevent when it comes to group content outside of maybe NS.

Also as others have mentioned some insight by dev would be nice,so we know what to look/hope for.

[siipperi]

6.Finesse requirment in lvl 115 t2c content is insane and needs to be looked at.This only applies to certain classes/skills and warden is in that group.

You get what 20k for free from yellow line and with +20% morale passive use that 20% of vitality essences to finesse.. Wardens have such easy time with morale in beta that if you don't choose to slot finesse, that's on you.

[Osglinthor]

You get what 20k for free from yellow line and with +20% morale passive use that 20% of vitality essences to finesse.. Wardens have such easy time with morale in beta that if you don't choose to slot finesse, that's on you.

First of all finesse problem mostly refers for red line warden,if you want to have consistent DPS with no resist in raid you will need 201k finesse.Ofc I can get to 201k and keep other stats but thats not the point.If one can do content with no finesse while other requires absurd amount than there is obvious problem,if you choose to be blind to it thats on you.

[Krindel]

I have done testing, how our outgoing damage debuffs work on T2 instance mobs.
Testing was done on Morgul Span-Builder from Dome of Stars lvl115 T2, his special attack Thundering Smash has always same damage magnitude
Applied debuffs:

• Warning Shot -5% outgoing damage,
• Ranged Boar's Rush T3 Suppression -8% outgoing damage (traited +3% from yellow)

• 1st hit without debuffs: 132400 (Maximum)
• 2nd hit with both debuffs: 128700 (Minimum)

Conclusion: real debuff in T2 instance is only -2,8% outgoing damage, not -5% and -8%. Sorry to say, but this is not worth using.

[BotLike]

I have done testing, how or outgoing damage debuffs work on T2 instance mobs.
Testing was done on Morgul Span-Builder from Dome of Stars lvl115 T2, his special attack Thundering Smash has always same damage magnitude
Applied debuffs:

• Warning Shot -5% outgoing damage,
• Ranged Boar's Rush T3 Suppression -8% outgoing damage (traited +3% from yellow)

• 1st hit without debuffs: 132400 (Maximum)
• 2nd hit with both debuffs: 128700 (Minimum)

Conclusion: real debuff in T2 instance is only -3% outgoing damage, not -5% and -8%. Sorry to say, but this is not worth using.

So it's additive , sad news but thank you very much for the test.

[Hildilas]

First of all finesse problem mostly refers for red line warden,if you want to have consistent DPS with no resist in raid you will need 201k finesse.Ofc I can get to 201k and keep other stats but thats not the point.If one can do content with no finesse while other requires absurd amount than there is obvious problem,if you choose to be blind to it thats on you.

So If they don't consider to Change the finesse mechanics there should be 30k locked to blue line and 100k locked to red/yellow line^^...I mean..Why not? It's not the same for every class so it's quite unfair.