Minstrel Feedback Thread

[Joedangod]

I just don't agree is all. Lotro is one of the few MMOs that still abides by the holy trinity of DPS, Healer, Tank. And classes that are very clearly cut for those roles (As well as buffer or debuffer). If a class is the far and away superior healer then I don't think it should also be comparable to the best DPS. I understand that some MMOs have gone that route it's just my preference that classes keep their roles but are also usable to solo in PvP or t1/landscape content in their off-roles.

This would still be abiding by the "holy trinity", you'd just have more options as far as picking your tank/healer/DPS goes. I think the problem you're having right now is that you still see LOTRO in the pre-HD class system where class equals role. That system hasn't existed in game for years.

When people say that every traitline should be viable/competitive what they mean is that every traitline should be able to stand on its own. This isn't a request for homogenization of classes but rather a request to diversify. LOTRO needs to work on splitting up the traitlines to the point where each class is 3 different classes in practice, this current situation where DPS lines like red RK retains two rezzes from the heal aspect is honestly awful to balance.

[siipperi]

I just don't agree is all. Lotro is one of the few MMOs that still abides by the holy trinity of DPS, Healer, Tank. And classes that are very clearly cut for those roles (As well as buffer or debuffer). If a class is the far and away superior healer then I don't think it should also be comparable to the best DPS. I understand that some MMOs have gone that route it's just my preference that classes keep their roles but are also usable to solo in PvP or t1/landscape content in their off-roles.

DPS difference between hunter and minstrel is massively bigger now in beta than in live... But if it was about that burg deserves good 30-40% DPS nerf if there would be need to have that kind of holy trinity. See that's not working is it now?

[hanxcve]

Mini feedback:

-Reduce follow up duration to 6s



-Cries and Calls Reset internal cd back to 15s



-Nerf chord of salvation by 50%



-Buff Raise the Spirit HoT by 100%, reduce duration to 10s




BUGS:
-Chord of Salvation gives Raise our Spirit HoT instead of the Chord HoT
-Raise the Spirit legacy does not affect Raise our Spirits.
-Coda no longer consumes anthems

[siipperi]

Still problems:

- Raise the spirit needs 1s cooldown back
- raise our spirit doesn't benefit from raise the spirit legacy
- Anthems still need lower duration
- revert/remove follow up -trait
- Chord of salvation is still bugging and has raise our spirit as it's hot
- Chord of salvation gives 2 random low morale heals. This will cause lag. Remove these
+ other issues I have brought up earlier. Regarding yellow line etc.



Heal magnitudes:

- Bolster courage is in good spot.
- Triumphant spirit is in good spot
- Soliloguy of Spirit is in good spot


- Improved Chord of salvation needs 20% nerf.
- Raise the spirit needs to be 40-45% stronger
- Raise our Spirits HoT needs to be 30% stronger and Raise the Spirit legacy affect it.
- Inspire fellows needs to be 40-45% stronger
- Coda of Resonance needs to be 20% stronger
- Fellowship's Heart Initial needs to be 100% stronger
- Fellowship's Heart HoT needs to be 90% stronger
- Perfect ballad needs to be 150% stronger




Here's my quote describing magnitude of heals related to other heals:

Here is my suggestion of how heals should stack against each others. Bolster courage is the measuring stone at 100% and everything is related to it:

• Bolster courage 100%
• Bolstering our courage (like its atm)
• Inspire fellows 80-90%
• Raise the spirit 65%
• Perfect Ending 130%
• Chord of Salvation initial 130%
• Coda 120-130%
• Triumphant Spirit 150%
• Fellowships Heart 80% (initial + each HoT)
• Chord of Salvation HoT ~10%
• Soliloquy of Spirit (SoS) ~10%
• Raise the spirit HoT ~15%
• Major Ballad ~15%

And lastly. Are you aware minstrel does by far worst DPS at the moment with Beorning? Minstrel DPS is so much behind hunter DPS it's not even funny. We are speaking about 2.5x more DPS on hunter.

[BotLike]

-Nerf chord of salvation by 50%

How did you heal this amount with chord ? I get 86k with ioreth and resonance anthem so that makes no sense. You stack inc healing + anthem or smth ? Still something is wrong.
I might have messed up with the runes , dunno.

I am sorry , but Minstrel dev does a really bad job so far.

The nerf on bolster aoe was the only right call.
The single target raise the spirit default heal is way too low , the follow up trait is way too overpowered , it's a joke.
Inspire fellows healing is way too low , even with legacy , but alright , i can accept that one as a buffer.
Chord now heals more than triumphant , ok i can accept that too , 1st is single target , 2nd is aoe. ( which one is the ow s$#@ heal again though ? )
Raise the spirit new hot is a total joke , heals less than SoS.
You fixed raise the spirit to apply this 'amazing' hot , and you broke chord of salvation again , it now has a ###### HoT instead of the WAI aoe heal the tooltip promises.
You broke once again the percentage heals from CoS blue trait on max rank , they only apply on yourself and not your target.
I don't like the 3 minutes anthem duration , it's a precombat and trait swapper candy and not much else.

But honestly , minny heals AND dps are broken in my eyes atm and i hope this doesn't hit live.
I just want a rollback , keep bolster aoe nerfed and boost all heals with flat percentages to kind of catchup with the lost runes. I mean , please , you tried and you failed , it's alright , let's move on.
I can't accept this situation as 'minstrel is balanced'.
Don't release this.

[B749]

General:

DPS is down the drain with the relic change. 18k single target on the dummy, while Hunters do 50+k. Really need to fix that before this goes live...

Anthem duration still too long, however seems unlikely to be changed at this point?

Shield Focus skill still completely useless.

Echoes of Battle still dealing Common damage which makes it very weak.

Follow Up is just stupid like this.



That's 9 times -15% inductions on myself just from a couple healing skills used on self, not grouped. Anyone who still feels -135% induction duration on top of the other reductions Minstrel already gets is working as intended needs their head examined.

Bug: Chord of Salvation applies Raise Our Spirits if any ranks of the blue line trait Improved Chord of Salvation are earned. The fellowship-wide heal that trait mentions is nowhere to be found.

List of things to fix before pushing to live:

• Follow Up: limit maximum stacks and/or decrease duration to 6s or less.
• Healing magnitude: increase Inspire Fellows, Raise the Spirit (both initial and HoT) and Fellowship's Heart, decrease Chord of Salvation.
• The "Chord of Salvation will grant your target 1% of their Max Morale for every nearby ally." part of the Improved Chord of Salvation trait applies to caster, rather than target as the tooltip describes.
• Improved Chord of Salvation applying Raise Our Spirits instead of a separate effect (even if Raise Our Spirits isn't traited from yellow) needs to be fixed.
• Bubble magnitudes need to be fixed.
• Red line trait 'Enduring Morale' needs to be updated to a % value, +1,106 at level 115 is not worth 5 trait points.
• Make Red Line trait Cacophonous Timeless Echoes change Echoes of Battle's damage type to Light.
• Raise Our Spirits HoT is unaffected by Raise the Spirit ILI legacy, and its potency is very low.
• Yellow line trait 'Strength of Helm Hammerhand' provides 2,016 mastery; completely worthless at level 115.

Red line and Yellow line will both need serious attention in the near future too but it seems this one is going live soon so I kept the list short.

[NavarreBlood]

When I first logged in the tactical and healing +% runes were still on the LIs. After a time and a 2nd login these +% runes disappeared. I couldn't find them anywhere. After adding new runes from my vault to the LIs, here are my observations:

On live with same gear, healing is averaging about 12.5K hps. On bullroarer now after adding back single healing rune to book hps is 10.2k or about 22.5% lower healing vs. live.

Just pressing bolster for 3 minutes: 6.5k hps.

Raise the spirit seems to have been nerfed from last update. Just pressing raise the spirit for 3 minutes: 2.4k hps. I didn't buy the extra 20% with trait points so that's something to take into account, but it's still low. I can't see a reason to use this skill based on this. It probably needs to be 10-30% less than bolster courage in hps due to being fast and shorter induction, but not this low IMO.

Several times I noticed after repeatedly pressing raise the spirit that it just did nothing. Maybe it was a keyboard issue from pressing the key too often, or maybe there is something funky with the animation that pops up at certain times to stall out the skill.

Most of the time I had no inductions due to crits and the "follow up" trait, and the rest of the time had very low (0.2-0.6) second inductions on bolster, so the "follow up" trait doesn't seem to be making healing overpowered, contrary to what is implied in some of the other posts. Overall healing has been nerfed in this update quite a bit (22.5%) vs. live, based on my healing rotation and tests.

DPS doesn't seem to have increased (yet). Hope it happens in the next update. Think BIG. The guardian next to me was cheering his 33.6k dps. I haven't gotten much above 18K on this build and it's mostly 16-17k per 3 minute parse.

[hanxcve]

Is anyone even taking our feedback and should we even bother leaving it since the update is coming out next week no matter what?

Can a blue name pls respond to this

[dselden]

Is anyone even taking our feedback and should we even bother leaving it since the update is coming out next week no matter what?

Can a blue name pls respond to this

There's a massive difference in dev interaction between the guardian, hunter, and lm threads and the champion and mini threads. It's honestly depressing when my 2 most played characters (Mini and Champion) seem to be getting far less attention than the other 3 classes are.

[CaerArianrhod]

As I wrote. Just because most of heals are messed up does not release messed up things that are overpowered to fly as OK. This is about balancing class and saying skill is ok when it overpowers any other skills by several times is not OK.
If you took time to read my post you would know legacy does not affect HoT of raise the spirit.
I certainly can heal t1 raid with ease with current tooltips. No issues there... Problem is not t1.

The nerf to BC spam was ok.
Beta #3 was as far OK. But with the current changes: in my test my HPS was 2.2K lower as with Beta #3.
i'v read the part of your post with the legacy. And yes: it have to affect the HOT.
For you and me the T1 is maybe not the problem - if we run with our raid. Pugs will not be able to do it anymore. And T2?
If the dev think this is a class balance ...well if i would say what i think about, i would get a ban here.

[siipperi]

The nerf to BC spam was ok.
Beta #3 was as far OK. But with the current changes: in my test my HPS was 2.2K lower as with Beta #3.
i'v read the part of your post with the legacy. And yes: it have to affect the HOT.
For you and me the T1 is maybe not the problem - if we run with our raid. Pugs will not be able to do it anymore. And T2?

Problem of previous beta was both Chord and raise the spirit had bolster like AoE components. That's nonsense. Chord of salvation is single target heal followed with with AoE HoT for your group. Raise the spirit should be 1s cd skill followed by new design weak HoT. Should not be copycat skills of bolstering our courage. Skills should be unique and rotation should matter. Thing is what I'm suggesting would make proper pick and choose heal for right situation be a thing, situational reading be a thing, prepping be a thing and so on. If you read my post only one skill I suggested to be nerffed, that hits significantly harder than 5minute cooldown heal, or 45s cooldown heal. What sense it makes for 10s cooldown skill to heal significantly more than these 2? There needs to be balance between skills. Other skills in generally I suggested big increase on magnitude. 50% increase on healing skill is huge, yet balanced on this case.

% differences between skills I have suggested several times, for weeks mind you but dev is MIA, would create proper RoI minstrel type of rotation be relevant again. Inspire fellows matters on that, raise the spirit matters on that, longer CD heals matters on that.

They should also remove whole follow up trait. Sure compensate it with regular -15% induction passive or something if they like but crit RNG and encouraging spam healing should be removed. That is not what minstrel is about. Minstrel is about reading and reacting. Not spamming heals just because you can.

[Despotis]

How about an active skill to lower inductions for a duration (like Call to Ioreth does for critting the next heal) instead of this rng passive bonus.

Now that I think about it I could have Call to Ioreth change to give a -% induction reduction and +% crit chance for a duration.

[NavarreBlood]

Chord of salvation is fine as it is now as a higher strength heal that is carrying the overall hps rotation. A nerf to chord (all else remaining equal) would be a nerf to overall hps by approximately the same amount. Ovearall hps has already been reduced 22.5% by my calculations, so a nerf to chord is not needed.

Chord of salvation is a good save skill and survival skill for a red line minstrel. Chord is the only viable battle heal if you run red/yellow warspeech line so it should be a strong skill. Red line survivability has gone up quite a bit because of the increase in strength of chord of salvation, and that shouldn't be sacrificed for the sake of some "ideal" list of healing strength order that only takes into account blue line healers. Minstrels should have competitively viable dps, healing and support lines so the overall picture should be taken into account for each skill change, and I think that was done with the chord of salvation changes in this update.

[Destiny1365]

I can understand putting Anthem of War in a line instead of just giving it to every line is at a low level, but can you make it so that it is more accessible to the mini's who are supporting from yellow line please? Like having it either lower (first or second level) in the red line, or even put it in yellow, which is the line that uses anthems the most. Anthem of War is a necessity (at least to me) when I am buffing on yellow line, and having it so far down red makes it almost pointless to even play yellow line. Thank you for taking your time to read this!

[Macdui]

Is anyone even taking our feedback and should we even bother leaving it since the update is coming out next week no matter what?

Can a blue name pls respond to this

She's been in the team a lot longer than 2016 and is quite senior. Why does the dev name Devilled Egg pop into my head? Similar disappointments or same person?

There's been a general lack of oversight for a while now. All the oops moments since Mordor release... and the dreadful craft implementation. Where is my shield recipe?

If you don't post you can hide ignorance. Leave it to the CM to protect you, here and the lack of game knowledge in the higher ranks, there.

There is little accountability for us as we generally don't get to know who's worked on what, be nice to know where the weak link is. We can only suspect.

Mac

[dselden]

She's been in the team a lot longer than 2016 and is quite senior. Why does the dev name Devilled Egg pop into my head? Similar disappointments or same person?

There's been a general lack of oversight for a while now. All the oops moments since Mordor release... and the dreadful craft implementation. Where is my shield recipe?

If you don't post you can hide ignorance. Leave it to the CM to protect you, here and the lack of game knowledge in the higher ranks, there.

There is little accountability for us as we generally don't get to know who's worked on what, be nice to know where the weak link is. We can only suspect.

Mac

Same dev. She designed bolster spam to start with lol.

[Endoloose]

Improved Chord of Salvation and Raise the Spirit Share the same fellowship HOT. The same name (Raise our Spirits), and they overwrite each other. Not possible to have both HOTs up at the same time.

[xcentralx]

Why is mini getting nerfed so hard right now? Each iteration gets worse, I'm not sure the mini Dev is taking any feedback. Some classes seem to be getting better changes and more interaction from vastin, where's the mini Dev? (And warden)

[BotLike]

The buff from the trait "Follow Up" no longer stacks. Follow Up has had its rank 2 induction reduced from 20% to 15%, and its effect duration increased from six seconds to 20 seconds. This effect will no longer stack.

That's a start : D

[Giliodor]

Glad to see that the feedback on Follow Up was heard.

[dselden]

I think most would've preferred 6s follow up with -20% inductions instead since it has basically 100% uptime. But it's better than allowing it to stack for 20s at least.

[siipperi]

Follow up is good change, if I understood it right. Less RNG on healing minstrel. Nice work. Now just actually adjust healing numbers proper (suggested above). Revert anthem BS and stuff I have mentioned prior.

[Madmanthief]

Maybe they should have had a few of the DDO class devs come over and help, they stay in touch with the community on a somewhat more regular basis than these devs do.

[keztryl]

Glad to see that the feedback on Follow Up was heard.

Follow up is good change, if I understood it right. Less RNG on healing minstrel. Nice work. Now just actually adjust healing numbers proper (suggested above). Revert anthem BS and stuff I have mentioned prior.

Bump. Really happy with the outcome on this issue. Hope everything pans out on live. I'm assuming we should continue to post issues here?

A little worried now that I didn't test red line without my 230 mastery, capped crit and raid gear. It was a lot weaker on landscape, but I didn't give it much thought. I also didn't see a lot of posts on this forum, so I think we players may want to start testing and posting DPS, as I would hate for this to be a problem come u23. I definitely feel like minstrels have dropped a lot of DPS since lvl 100 and lvl 105 cap. I feel like I'm dishing out about 35-45% of the damage DPS classes put out. Red minstrel should at least be on par with Red LM (if we are going with parity between support classes as opposed to parity between DPS lines).

I personally am in favour of greater parity between DPS lines. I think we all know how well minstrels are going to compete with RKs, Hunters and Champs (and anyone else who wants to get in to that space) when it comes to getting DPS raid spots. "Market forces" are sufficient to ensure that most minstrels play Blue 95% of the time. Nobody needs to be forced into that role. But being able to get in the odd run in Red helps make the class more fun overall. Everyone needs to be able to switch things up every now and again. A little novelty is a good thing.

[sir-hamed]

The buff from the trait "Follow Up" no longer stacks. Follow Up has had its rank 2 induction reduced from 20% to 15%, and its effect duration increased from six seconds to 20 seconds. This effect will no longer stack.

That's a start : D

this is realy suck

now we only get 15% reduced induction. so 1.8 sec induction on BC gonna be like 1.5sec .... awesome job !!!
i want to see how mini's can heal raids anymore ... when boss can hit 60k-90k also when mobs hit 20% on moral each hit ... lets make them wait for 1.5 sec so they can pop a single target heal !!! that can heal on crit around 20k !!!
i dont know why you want to change that "follow up" at all, it was fine before.

thanks god i did get my t2c on abyss dead for my mini and Rk.