Minstrel Feedback Thread

[Kasius]

this is realy suck

now we only get 15% reduced induction. so 1.8 sec induction on BC gonna be like 1.5sec .... awesome job !!!
i want to see how mini's can heal raids anymore ... when boss can hit 60k-90k also when mobs hit 20% on moral each hit ... lets make them wait for 1.5 sec so they can pop a single target heal !!! that can heal on crit around 20k !!!
i dont know why you want to change that "follow up" at all, it was fine before.

thanks god i did get my t2c on abyss dead for my mini and Rk.

I dont think abyss t2c is impossible now. in fact i am quite sure you will see kins Clearing it in the next days.

if you take 60-90k hits you do something wrong anyway.

since follow up is nerved i think mini got really interesting again.
high skill cap and you can see who really knows what he/she is doing instead of just spamming bolster as most did before.

[Emaldiom]

I dont think abyss t2c is impossible now. in fact i am quite sure you will see kins Clearing it in the next days.

if you take 60-90k hits you do something wrong anyway.

since follow up is nerved i think mini got really interesting again.
high skill cap and you can see who really knows what he/she is doing instead of just spamming bolster as most did before.

Challenge accepted!

There is alot of stuff missing, but i think this is in the right direction atleast.
I haven`t been able to check changes to se if anything of this is fixed but from my head this needs to be resolved:

Red trait that gives fixed morale needs to be adjusted to %
Increase the healing from AoE skills (Inspire fellow, fs-heart and so on)
Increase all bubbles to be a fixed % of max morale or will\vitality stat - Atleast increase them so they are somewhat dependable. Right now they give 1000 morale where most goes with 90 - 140k morale
Remove the block \ reduced movement speed trait - its just useless - Either increase the block chance to like 40% and have it last only a few seconds or just remove it with something else

Anyway, looking forward to test the changes on live and in group\raid content!

[Kasius]

Challenge accepted!

There is alot of stuff missing, but i think this is in the right direction atleast.
I haven`t been able to check changes to se if anything of this is fixed but from my head this needs to be resolved:

Red trait that gives fixed morale needs to be adjusted to %
Increase the healing from AoE skills (Inspire fellow, fs-heart and so on)
Increase all bubbles to be a fixed % of max morale or will\vitality stat - Atleast increase them so they are somewhat dependable. Right now they give 1000 morale where most goes with 90 - 140k morale
Remove the block \ reduced movement speed trait - its just useless - Either increase the block chance to like 40% and have it last only a few seconds or just remove it with something else

Anyway, looking forward to test the changes on live and in group\raid content!

feel free to join us tonight

[sir-hamed]

I dont think abyss t2c is impossible now. in fact i am quite sure you will see kins Clearing it in the next days.

if you take 60-90k hits you do something wrong anyway.

since follow up is nerved i think mini got really interesting again.
high skill cap and you can see who really knows what he/she is doing instead of just spamming bolster as most did before.

yes i am sure some group will find some glitch to do it in days but i dont think anyone can do it legit.

you think boss's in abyss cant hit around 60-90 k? tell me which one of them cant?

[Kasius]

yes i am sure some group will find some glitch to do it in days but i dont think anyone can do it legit.

you think boss's in abyss cant hit around 60-90 k? tell me which one of them cant?

Read carefull: ofc they can hit 60-90k but if they do you do something wrong(strat wise or People not doing their Jobs).
the reason that doesnt matter before was the raid was ridicoulusly easy together with bolster spam.(you could go afk with just having the bolster key pressed the whole time).
now it will be interesting again to heal.

if you think People will Need exploits and stuff to clear it now i cant help you anyway

[Archiemundo]

Read carefull: ofc they can hit 60-90k but if they do you do something wrong(strat wise or People not doing their Jobs).
the reason that doesnt matter before was the raid was ridicoulusly easy together with bolster spam.(you could go afk with just having the bolster key pressed the whole time).
now it will be interesting again to heal.

if you think People will Need exploits and stuff to clear it now i cant help you anyway

Having tanked and healed T2C I can guarantee you that bosses and trash hit for that and more as part of standard mechanics. I've been more focussed on Warden with these updates as Minstrel is very clearly going to struggle. I give it a week tops before a band aid buff is dished out to Minis.

[Kasius]

Having tanked and healed T2C I can guarantee you that bosses and trash hit for that and more as part of standard mechanics. I've been more focussed on Warden with these updates as Minstrel is very clearly going to struggle. I give it a week tops before a band aid buff is dished out to Minis.

where is the Problem?
like i healed and tanked the whole raid aswell.the only job that takes a lot of inc dmg is the tank.mini single target heal is not nerved,maybe even buffed(chord is really op now).
on all other classes you can avoid a lot of dmg and dps classes are healing anyway over rev mark.maybe 1 blue mini+1blue rk is better then 2 blue minis now.but is that a Problem?i dont think so.

[Oelle]

this is realy suck

now we only get 15% reduced induction.

Actually, now you have permanent -55% inductions just from traittree and with selfbuffs. Add a warden to your group and you can permanently have -75% inductions. If thats not enough, then something should generally be changed how healing and minstrels work. But having a class thats about inductions permanently have no induction doesnt make sense.

[Joedangod]

Actually, now you have permanent -55% inductions just from traittree and with selfbuffs.

-55% is before follow up.

[keztryl]

I think AoM can be done legit, but won't know for certain until I've tried what they have out now.

Anybody who picked up this class post helms deep is going to be learning how to heal in an fairly new way. It is going to take time and practice, especially if you are not use to using all of your healing skills.

An old rotation i was working with.... bolster, cut animation with chord, cut animation with RtS, cut animation with SoS (repeat with bolster cut animation with SoS x2). If you have the -9% incoming inspire buff keep that up, it last 30 seconds. Coda + double tap bolster (sometimes you get two instant casts), perfect ending and TS as needed. You can't rely on CoC reset as often, so getting use to the new timing and role of Coda will take time.

The old bolster spamming approach basically covered a multitude of sins, from latency to lag to human incompetence to human error. But what pushed minstrels to become non-reactive was the shift in instance mechanics starting with Osgiliath, where completely ignoring the damage mechanics was the only way to go. Also, the latency on fellowship health bars lags quite a bit behind that players health. Compare your selected target's health to their health on the fellowship list and you will see what I mean. Its just not possible to be an entirely reactive healer, you always need to be overhealing a little bit. Traditionally that is why those low heal HoTs and damage reduction skills were important. With the ability to now maintain 5 HoTs, there should be more leeway, in terms of holding off on perfect ending, coda, and TS, until you see a players health drop.

Overhealing has been the norm for so long I think it is going to take quite a while for people to get use to playing this class closer to the way it was played pre-HD. Even experienced minstrels will be noobish for a bit.

[Oelle]

-55% is before follow up.

it is? where do those 15% come from?
I thought 20% from trait "quick melody" and 20% from hymn of the third age would be all besides follow up. What did I miss?
So its -70% inductions with follow up? thats still huge. If I could decide about such things, they wouldnt just stack additive but multiplicative and such -100% inductions would never happen.

Some inductions for minstrels are just annoying. Like purging debuffs, which takes 3s or something like that... those base values only need to be such annoyingly long, because minstrels have these huge -inductions bonusses. I'd prefer getting rid of both.

[Joedangod]

So its -70% inductions with follow up? thats still huge. If I could decide about such things, they wouldnt just stack additive but multiplicative and such -100% inductions would never happen.

Legacy: 10%.
Trait: 20%
Anthem: 25%

With old follow up we just needed 3 procs for no inductions, two procs was putting us at 95% and that was where we tended to be on average.

[Emaldiom]

All 3 bosses where done yesterday

Boss 1 was abit hard with healing as there is alot of AoE, but its so much more fun healing!
You actually have to target the ones you need to hea and Chord of salvation is very very usefull! Along with call of ioreth to get the crits in.

Took some time to get adjusted to the healing but it turned out pretty good actually.

Boss 2 was actually way easier to heal. Singel target healing has increased it seems (most part is chord of salvation i guess)
Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJex5u3ryXc

Boss 3 was the same as before..maybe a tad easier as you have more hots that actually helps here
Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JhjaQ4vnoFM&t=2s


Sadly my video from boss 1 got some facebook alerts up that i dont wanna show to everyone so i have to edit that one.. Will post it later today

So..the raid is perfectly doable and not much harder. You just have to pay attention and actually do something now instead of pressing 1 button as a minstrel. Its way more fun

[keztryl]

All 3 bosses where done yesterday

Boss 1 was abit hard with healing as there is alot of AoE, but its so much more fun healing!
You actually have to target the ones you need to hea and Chord of salvation is very very usefull! Along with call of ioreth to get the crits in.

Took some time to get adjusted to the healing but it turned out pretty good actually.

Boss 2 was actually way easier to heal. Singel target healing has increased it seems (most part is chord of salvation i guess)
Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJex5u3ryXc

Boss 3 was the same as before..maybe a tad easier as you have more hots that actually helps here
Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JhjaQ4vnoFM&t=2s


Sadly my video from boss 1 got some facebook alerts up that i dont wanna show to everyone so i have to edit that one.. Will post it later today

So..the raid is perfectly doable and not much harder. You just have to pay attention and actually do something now instead of pressing 1 button as a minstrel. Its way more fun

It will probably get a little easier once the support healers (captains and beornings) have had their fellowship wide healing skills adjusted (keeping in mind that is should be a little easier as we have reached mastery cap and have the best t2c raid gear). Prior to the relic nerf, captains could easily pop a 20-40k rally cry (with an added HoT) which is an instant-cast skill and has a relatively short CD (compared to TS). When a fellowship members health drops, they are in as good a position as minstrels to keep a team mate from falling over (but no blames the captain!). Prior to Rohan minstrels/RKs were focused heals and support classes actually had to support (not just buff/debuff). In the early days, Burgs also helped out with fellowship heals via CJs. I'm not sure anyone has patience for the latter, but I hope these adjustments also make support classes more challenging and fun to play.

[siipperi]

Devs are at this point probably wondering how to make minstrel stronger because all the forum drama. Here is few suggestions that I have made already over a month ago initially.

Here's 115 minstrels healing stats without any kind of buffs with ratio of healing compared to main healing skill bolster courage:





And here's my suggestion how healing skills should have been, with few edits I made with colors indicating if it was buff or nerf needed for the skill (white neutral no change, green buff, red nerf):

Here is my suggestion of how heals should stack against each others. Bolster courage is the measuring stone at 100% and everything is related to it:

• Bolster courage 100%
• Bolstering our courage (like its atm)
• Inspire fellows 80-90%
• Raise the spirit 65%
• Perfect Ending 140%
• Chord of Salvation initial 130%
• Coda 120-130%
• Triumphant Spirit 150%
• Fellowships Heart 80%+70 (initial + each HoT)
• Chord of Salvation HoT ~10%
• Soliloquy of Spirit (SoS) ~15%
• Raise the spirit HoT ~15%
• Major Ballad ~15%
• Healer's strike 25%

There is also need for 1s cooldown to be put back on Raise the spirit. Chord of salvation returned its original HoT mechanic (AoE heal removed that you try to implement) and so on.


Edit. I forgot I use all heal legacies but raise the spirit. So raise the spirit can be hair stronger maybe 40% of bolsters magnitude instead of 30% if you use legacy but point still stands, it's so low it's non existing heal.

[Joedangod]

It will probably get a little easier once the support healers (captains and beornings) have had their fellowship wide healing skills adjusted

Beornings aren't really support healers considering they are a decent option as main raid healer. Captains are a little bit weirder but there's never really much merit to having a blue captain in groups so I don't see a point reducing either of these two classes to be support healers only. They need a lot of work but there's no reason why they shouldn't compete with minstrels and RK's as main healers, variety is the spice of life and all.

[Joedangod]

Devs are at this point probably wondering how to make minstrel stronger because all the forum drama. Here is few suggestions that I have made already over a month ago initially.

In addition I think the -% induction buffs on Minstrel need to be substantially neutered and the cooldowns just reduced to leave the class in the same place. At the moment things get kinda dumb if minstrel receives a - induction group buff (i.e. warden adroit maneuver) since they get close to or hit -100% inductions. It also ends up being silly if minstrels are debuffed with +% inductions since a +20% or so induction debuff hitting live minstrel right now currently serves to roughly double induction length.

[B749]

So, after yesterday's patch, Minstrel still needs a lot of work.

Issues:

• Red line: DPS is the second lowest in the game now (only Beorning is worse from what I've seen); averaging around 20-22k sustained (while other classes that saw work with this patch are in the 40-50k range or beyond that). Result of the tactical relic nerf. Needs to be buffed a bit.
• Blue line: raw HpS is lowered by a lot, you'll need to tweak that to what you feel is reasonable. Others have made detailed breakdowns of this so I won't go too much into detail here. However, some remaining bugs need to be fixed and you need to decide what you do with the bubble traits. Either buff them up to relevance, or replace them with new things (and if you do that, please, more useful things than Shield Focus... movement is essential for the class and there's not a single scenario where sacrificing run speed for 5% Block chance is worthwhile).
• Yellow line: So it seems the idea here is buffer with limited healing abilities. Still, it needs work. See details below.

Suggested fixes/improvements

Red line:

• Increase the damage of Harsh Echoes (the DoT that has a 33% chance to be applied by Cries and Calls) significantly (currently it hits 905-1293 per tick). Around a 100-150% increase is justified. Change the damage type from unmitigated to Light.
• Change Anthem of the Third Age - Dissonance from "+10% Call Damage" to "+25% Cry and Call Damage and +5% Cry and Call Critical Chance"; this will significantly improve Red Minstrel DPS without affecting the other lines at all.
• Change Cacophonous Timeless Echoes from +10% Echoes of Battle Damage per rank to:
  
  • Rank 1: Sets Echoes of Battle Damage type to Light;
  • Rank 2: +25% Echoes of Battle Damage;
  • Rank 3: +50% Echoes of Battle Damage.
• Change the trait Enduring Morale from a flat value to a % value (from 1,106 Morale over 5 ranks to 5% over 5 ranks).

Blue line:

• Fix Improved Chord of Salvation trait; it is STILL applying the Raise Our Spirits Fellowship HoT rather than an effect of its own. Even if the player doesn't trait Raise Our Spirits from Yellow at all.
• Fellowship's Heart needs a significant buff in raw healing potency. 4% on a 69 tier legacy isn't anywhere near relevant. Increase the legacy and buff the base skill by a lot.
• Inspiring Cries and Calls: you increased the proc CD on this to 30s, however both the tooltip in the trait tree and the actual effect you receive on character vitals say 15s. The effect won't occur for 15s after the displayed cooldown expires though so the 30s CD is actually working. You need to update the tooltip on the trait and the actual effect displayed on our vitals.

Yellow line:

• Anthem of Composure is not very desireable at the moment because it's a rating buff, making it meaningless to characters who already cap their mitigation. Change it to a % buff and it will automatically become relevant. 3% seems reasonable, as long as you make sure the buff doesn't stack between multiple Minstrels. Change the Anthem of Composure Tactical Mitigation ILI legacy to a Anthem of Composure Incoming Healing rating legacy instead (yes, rating does make sense here). Now the skill also makes sense for cross-traiting from Blue.
• Anthem of Prowess is okay, but it should be a little better. The main benefit it offers is the -5% Attack Duration of course. I would suggest to remove the Armour and Evade rating buffs from the skill and instead add a -5% Induction time and a +3% Block/Parry/Evade chance buff.
• Shield Focus doesn't make sense. For a -30% movement speed pentalty to be worth it, the defensive buff needs to be more significant. If you want to keep it at raw block chance, needs to be something like +40-50% Block chance; alternatively it could be something like "-10% Incoming Damage". Or, if you want to make it a really good skill definitely worth traiting that fits within the Minstrel playstile, turn it into: "Channeled Skill. Channel Duration: 10s. Cooldown: 120s. Applies effect to Fellowship within 30m: -10% Incoming Damage." Channeled skill means the Minstrel can't support his allies in another way while it's running, yet it's powerful enough to be worth picking up for both Yellow and Blue minstrels (attractive cross-trait possibility).
• Tale of Tales is a nice idea, but it's underpowered. Change it to +2% Maximum Morale, +1% Tactical Mitigation, +5% Incoming Healing modifier (Resonance), +2% Max Morale, +1% Tac Mit, -5% Power Cost (Melody), +2% Max Morale, +1% Tac Mit, +15% Tactical Damage (instead of 1,423 Finesse which is meh).
• Strength of Helm Hammerhand: trait is underpowered (+2016 Phys and Tac Mastery). Change it to +10% Physical/Tactical Damage.
• Perfect Performance: Nice idea, but needs a buff to be relevant. Change the potency from 1.5% Healing/Tac Dmg/power cost (0.5% per rank, max buff 4.5% of each) to 3% Healing/6% Tac Dmg/3% power cost (1%/2%/1% per rank, max buffs become +9% Healing, +18% Tactical Damage, -9% power cost).
• Strike a Chord: Conceptually nice, however underpowered. Double its potency and it might be good; so from 100% of ballad potency as a debuff to 200% of ballad potency as a debuff.
• Song of Aid: again, conceptually good, but underpowered for some classes. It currently provides useful benefits to the following classes: Beorning, Burglar, Captain, Guardian and Hunter. Suggestions for the other five classes:
  
  • Champion: Increases melee critical chance by 5%;
  • Lore-master: Water-lore temporarily has no cooldown (also reset active cooldown);
  • Minstrel: Your next Healing skill is a guaranteed crit (basically apply the effect of Call to Ioreth);
  • Rune-keeper: -20% Induction time;
  • Warden: +3% BPE chance and +5% DoT damage.
• Call to Greatness: Already a fairly decent skill, it just needs some updates for some classes. It is fine for the following classes: Burglar, Captain, Champion, Guardian, Hunter, Minstrel and Warden. Suggestions for the other three classes:
  
  • Beorning: Adds 10 Wrath every 5s;
  • Lore-master: -20% Resist chance for all Lore skills;
  • Rune-keeper: Your next three fire skills will have no induction.

General QoL wishlist:

• Remove the induction on Story of Courage; it is far too slow to be useful as a removal skill. Keep the cooldown as is.
• Reduce Rally!'s cooldown in Yellow line by the same amount you reduce it in Blue line (-300 seconds).
• Greatly improve the damage and healing of Healer's Strike/Hero's Strike/Dissonant Strike. Keep its other effects as they are.
• Increase the buff range of Call of the Second Age from 5m to 15m.
• Improve the healing of Major Ballad in Resonance Stance to make it somewhat relevant.

I probably missed some stuff, just throwing some suggestions around and bringing up some bugs/issues hoping it gets read by the devs.

[hanxcve]

Devs are at this point probably wondering how to make minstrel stronger because all the forum drama. Here is few suggestions that I have made already over a month ago initially.

Here's 115 minstrels healing stats without any kind of buffs with ratio of healing compared to main healing skill bolster courage:





And here's my suggestion how healing skills should have been, with few edits I made with colors indicating if it was buff or nerf needed for the skill (white neutral no change, green buff, red nerf):



There is also need for 1s cooldown to be put back on Raise the spirit. Chord of salvation returned its original HoT mechanic (AoE heal removed that you try to implement) and so on.


Edit. I forgot I use all heal legacies but raise the spirit. So raise the spirit can be hair stronger maybe 40% of bolsters magnitude instead of 30% if you use legacy but point still stands, it's so low it's non existing heal.

All mini needs is 6s Follow up at 15% and 15s cries and cd's nothing else

mini is 2x as less fun to play this update because all inductions are made the same and there is no reason to press coda

[Scunthorpe]

My two cents are pretty simple. Having played mainly as a red-line mini, I am not too unhappy with that end of game play. Sure, we can't DPS like a hunter, but we can heal.

And that is where the problem lies. In order for us to be able to heal Abyss T2 and other stupid hard content, we need the massive heals. For anything else, it is massive overkill. But that problem lies more in how hard some of the content is. Abyss T2 is too hard. It is silly. I've tried it a few times, never going to try it again. I simply don't feel like wasting 5 hours only to die 13 times and only make it to the 1st boss. I'd rather work on an alt.

And now that my healing has been nerfed, I have even less reason to try the endest of end game content. If my healing gets nerfed, why not try to bring the difficulty level down a touch? I find that with many instances, the jump from T1 to T2 is crazy high. I feel like I went from T1 to T10 half the time. Maybe there should be 3 tiers: one for easy, one for hard and one for insane mode.

It wasn't that minis were stacked too high with heals, it was that we needed too much for only one single raid. Don't just balance us toons, maybe have a think about balancing some of the game play.

P.S. I am so pleased that we get visible instruments! I put that on the wish list year And I apologize in advance to all of you for returning to the bagpipes.

[hanxcve]

My two cents are pretty simple. Having played mainly as a red-line mini, I am not too unhappy with that end of game play. Sure, we can't DPS like a hunter, but we can heal.

And that is where the problem lies. In order for us to be able to heal Abyss T2 and other stupid hard content, we need the massive heals. For anything else, it is massive overkill. But that problem lies more in how hard some of the content is. Abyss T2 is too hard. It is silly. I've tried it a few times, never going to try it again. I simply don't feel like wasting 5 hours only to die 13 times and only make it to the 1st boss. I'd rather work on an alt.

And now that my healing has been nerfed, I have even less reason to try the endest of end game content. If my healing gets nerfed, why not try to bring the difficulty level down a touch? I find that with many instances, the jump from T1 to T2 is crazy high. I feel like I went from T1 to T10 half the time. Maybe there should be 3 tiers: one for easy, one for hard and one for insane mode.

It wasn't that minis were stacked too high with heals, it was that we needed too much for only one single raid. Don't just balance us toons, maybe have a think about balancing some of the game play.

P.S. I am so pleased that we get visible instruments! I put that on the wish list year And I apologize in advance to all of you for returning to the bagpipes.

Mini can still heal abyss, its just that the class is mind-numbingly boring to play now with an even less skill gap in between good and bad minis

[Archiemundo]

Mini can still heal abyss, its just that the class is mind-numbingly boring to play now with an even less skill gap in between good and bad minis

This is the biggest point. Mini healing is kinda boring now.

[Emaldiom]

Less skill cap ?
Tell me, how is pressing bolster courage only a higher skill cap than actually having to use all of your healing skills again?
Have you actually tried healing?

Its not that it was way harder now, but you need to get your rotations sorted out.I found chord of salvation and e frequently used call of ioreth to be a big key here.


Before this patch came a minstrel could heal anything as long as the player did not get 1 shotted. It helped with debuffs and people knowing how to play but it was not required.
Now, it is more a group effort as a minstrel cant just press bolster courage for instant win.. Just how it should be in a MMO

[Archiemundo]

Less skill cap ?
Tell me, how is pressing bolster courage only a higher skill cap than actually having to use all of your healing skills again?
Have you actually tried healing?

Its not that it was way harder now, but you need to get your rotations sorted out.I found chord of salvation and e frequently used call of ioreth to be a big key here.


Before this patch came a minstrel could heal anything as long as the player did not get 1 shotted. It helped with debuffs and people knowing how to play but it was not required.
Now, it is more a group effort as a minstrel cant just press bolster courage for instant win.. Just how it should be in a MMO

From what I've seen so far Bolster spam is still a thing. Yes you need to change targets and will use CoS more but the difference is the time you have to do other things. In a normal AoM pre patch I was using corruption removal (still a thing), cc on spirits or other pesky mobs, book swapping for AoW buffs etc which you have less time for now so a good healer or a bad healer will still use 70-80% bolster still but have less time to do other things & likely have no anthem of war other than a pre buff too.

[Fureo]

Mini can still heal abyss, its just that the class is mind-numbingly boring to play now with an even less skill gap in between good and bad minis

Agree... It's boring, slow and undynamic. Make Follow up back to 6s and be stackable, it would be so much faster... Right now you feel like a 80y old and because of his slow reactions Mini changes were made.