Class Update - Rune Keepers

[Nouri]

I think he definitely does understand what he's asking for. The purpose of creating Trait Trees in Helm's Deep, according to Developer's at the time, was to allow every class to perform multiple roles, specifically in group content. However, this was meant to be based around the idea that each class STILL has a MAIN role. For example, Guardian's have 3 Trait Trees, 2 of which are based around Tanking. Therefore, the Guardian class is meant to have a primary role of tanking, with a secondary role of DPS. Contrarily a Runekeeper has Two specs devoted to DPS and one spec devoted to healing. Therefore, it was intended to primarily be a DPS class with the capability to heal. Although classes have primary and secondary roles, they are still meant to be able to perform those roles competitively. For example, a very skilled RK healer SHOULD be able to perform the role of main healer in a Raid. The issue with this today is that stats have increased exponentially since these trait trees were implemented, and even after these trees were implemented many of them weren't fully functioning because the Dev team fired all of the class specific developers in the middle of HD launch. So we've been stuck with half-assed trait tree set-ups for many classes that have exponentially declined in usefulness as stats have exponentially increased.

I think a return to traditional class roles at this point in the game may be impossible without fully remaking some of the trait trees and fully reworking some of the combat systems in the game such as Finesse, B/P/E ratings for tanks, and debuff capabilities for certain support classes. Therefore, it would make sense from a Time/Money/Gameplay standpoint to just fully commit to making the current Trees more viable so that the small player base LotRO has is allowed to enjoy more diversity within their chosen class.

Even on Arkenstone, the server with the largest amount of level 115 PVE players, it is nearly impossible to find certain classes for group PVE. Guardian's, Loremaster's, and Captain's seem to be the most difficult to find these days. What do all of these classes have in common? They're some of the slowest to level, and really only have 1 major role each in a group nowadays.

So proposing to give these classes more DPS so that they can level more quickly, find groups more easily, and enjoy gameplay more thorougly would seem like a pretty solid solution to me.

There is something else in common with the classes you mentioned. They chose to play those classes knowing they were tanking or group support classes.

How about this as a solution? They nerf my RK's fire mits and DNF. Then, they make your champ's and my RK's ST DPS the same. Lastly, to keep everything even, they nerf your champ's AoE DPS down to what my RK can do. While we're at it, let's increase Cappy DPS so it's comparable, too, but take away their reses and banners. This could all be accomplished very easily by taking the same skills, and giving them different animations and icons for each class. How about that?

[Nouri]

I hate the idea of ever having a clear frontrunner in any role. Deciding who you recruit for groups should be dependent on the skill/gear of the people applying instead of being based on what class you are playing. I'd rather see "11/12 for raid T2C, need DPS" than "11/12 for raid T2C, need Hunter".

O.O Are you kidding me?!?!?!? You can't seriously be in favor of guards having the same potential of a minstrel in a healing role. I have to assume you meant within primary roles.

[Joedangod]

O.O Are you kidding me?!?!?!? You can't seriously be in favor of guards having the same potential of a minstrel in a healing role. I have to assume you meant within primary roles.

Within the bounds of the traitlines: As in Guards as DPS/Tanks, Minstrels as Healer/DPS/Support, Champs as Tanks/DPS and so on. If a traitline exists and has a role, it should be competitive in that role.

[Joedangod]

There is something else in common with the classes you mentioned. They chose to play those classes knowing they were tanking or group support classes.

How about this as a solution? They nerf my RK's fire mits and DNF. Then, they make your champ's and my RK's ST DPS the same. Lastly, to keep everything even, they nerf your champ's AoE DPS down to what my RK can do. While we're at it, let's increase Cappy DPS so it's comparable, too, but take away their reses and banners. This could all be accomplished very easily by taking the same skills, and giving them different animations and icons for each class. How about that?

RK and Red Champ ST DPS being comparable is good, that's where it should be. Yellow Champ AoE DPS nerfed also good but not something to keep in line with RK's, more to do with keeping it in line with the few other AoE DPS lines that exist i.e. Red LM and to some extent Red Minstrel. Cappy DPS being increased only makes sense if Red Captain is intended to be a DPS spec which I don't believe it is but if the devs say different who am I to judge.

The point is to have multiple different ways of doing the same thing rather than having the one class, one role philosophy that LOTRO has tried to cling on to for years despite having significantly more classes than roles.

[Nouri]

Within the bounds of the traitlines: As in Guards as DPS/Tanks, Minstrels as Healer/DPS/Support, Champs as Tanks/DPS and so on. If a traitline exists and has a role, it should be competitive in that role.

I'd be okay with that, except if hunters' DPS is same as every other DPS class, what else do they bring to a raid? RKs have distinctive skills (albeit ones you'd like to see nerfed) that help a raid aside from DPS. So do burgs. So do LMs and several other classes if you give a wide definition to 'DPS class'. Hunters don't.

[Joedangod]

I'd be okay with that, except if hunters' DPS is same as every other DPS class, what else do they bring to a raid? RKs have distinctive skills (albeit ones you'd like to see nerfed) that help a raid aside from DPS. So do burgs. So do LMs and several other classes if you give a wide definition to 'DPS class'. Hunters don't.

Which is why I'd like to see that misc utility nerfed and left to the support lines. Reveal weakness isn't something that defines Red Burglar, they pop it on a boss and then just go through their own brand of DPS rotation. The fire mit debuffs on RK are totally passive, the rezzes are just a button to flick every 150 seconds there's nothing engaging to them. What makes the classes different and appealing to different people isn't the random utility aspects, it's the playstyle/rotation.

As far as my definition of DPS class goes; if it's got a DPS traitline, it's a DPS class to some degree.

[wispsong]

I don't think you understand what you are asking for. For this every dps spec needs to be the same and that would take away from the uniqueness of the class. Sure, skills would still have different names but no dps can buff, debuff, heal, rez etc because that would give them an advantage, and of cause every dps spec now needs to put out the same damage. You might not find joy in red mini in melody healing a friend in landscape when needed or that dps guard using a taunt to keep aggro but that is what makes classes unique. And classes need to stay unique with class spells available in every spec which then have additional spells to enhance that spec.

There is something else in common with the classes you mentioned. They chose to play those classes knowing they were tanking or group support classes.

How about this as a solution? They nerf my RK's fire mits and DNF. Then, they make your champ's and my RK's ST DPS the same. Lastly, to keep everything even, they nerf your champ's AoE DPS down to what my RK can do. While we're at it, let's increase Cappy DPS so it's comparable, too, but take away their reses and banners. This could all be accomplished very easily by taking the same skills, and giving them different animations and icons for each class. How about that?

RK and Red Champ ST DPS being comparable is good, that's where it should be. Yellow Champ AoE DPS nerfed also good but not something to keep in line with RK's, more to do with keeping it in line with the few other AoE DPS lines that exist i.e. Red LM and to some extent Red Minstrel. Cappy DPS being increased only makes sense if Red Captain is intended to be a DPS spec which I don't believe it is but if the devs say different who am I to judge.

The point is to have multiple different ways of doing the same thing rather than having the one class, one role philosophy that LOTRO has tried to cling on to for years despite having significantly more classes than roles.

Please let me know if you think what I wrote down earlier? Because that would be a hit to players who like to play different classes in dps for the different option they give.

[Joedangod]

Please let me know if you think what I wrote down earlier? Because that would be a hit to players who like to play different classes in dps for the different option they give.

Generally the support potential in DPS traitlines is something passively done. You wouldn't notice if it was removed because you don't do anything to deliberately trigger it now. As far as grouping goes there's not really any scenario in which a character stops doing one role and tries to pick up another, most specs block out access to other specs features to the point where you end up really bad at doing a role if you're not in the traitline for it. Take tanking as an example, sure a red guardian has the taunt available but the forced attack aspect will expire after 5s and the mob will ignore you from then on until you can taunt again. An RK could get mending verse in redline but it's pretty useless as a heal unless you have a bunch of blue traits and you lose out on some nice yellow stuff by speccing it.

Each traitline has a unique way of functioning that isn't suddenly lost if the miscellaneous support aspects are neutered. If you're playing something purely for the support it gives then really shouldn't you be playing support?

[KiwiCommander]

Have RK healers bubbles and healing been scaled yet for endgame instances/raids?

[Joedangod]

Have RK healers bubbles and healing been scaled yet for endgame instances/raids?

No, RK's haven't had their turn at class balance yet.

[wispsong]

Generally the support potential in DPS traitlines is something passively done. You wouldn't notice if it was removed because you don't do anything to deliberately trigger it now. As far as grouping goes there's not really any scenario in which a character stops doing one role and tries to pick up another, most specs block out access to other specs features to the point where you end up really bad at doing a role if you're not in the traitline for it. Take tanking as an example, sure a red guardian has the taunt available but the forced attack aspect will expire after 5s and the mob will ignore you from then on until you can taunt again. An RK could get mending verse in redline but it's pretty useless as a heal unless you have a bunch of blue traits and you lose out on some nice yellow stuff by speccing it.

Each traitline has a unique way of functioning that isn't suddenly lost if the miscellaneous support aspects are neutered. If you're playing something purely for the support it gives then really shouldn't you be playing support?

You are talking about group content, I talk about landscape. In Mordor my RK heals came in very handy especially in Caras Tilion where my own DPS was deadly for me. I had to keep my friend alive so these mobs wouldn't attack me. His Guardian has kept aggro of my hunter in higher then level areas which would have killed me. The RK shield that instantly revive the target has also proven very good on several occasions. And Battle rez can also be very helpful. It might be ignored in instances but it enhances the class for me and is all very useful. And since these DPS bring this utility with them I think they could be in unforeseen events in instances be very useful as well to rez a healer/through an emergency heal to the tank etc. Or am I supposed to have tunnel vision in instances and just do DPS?

I completely understand what you are saying, I would never go as healer into landscape, that's what the dps line is for. But the other spells I have access to as the class or by putting extra points in another tree, that is what makes every class unique and special. The last thing I want Lotro to do is to balance classes by trimming everything from a dps spec that isn't dps.

[Joedangod]

And since these DPS bring this utility with them I think they could be in unforeseen events in instances be very useful as well to rez a healer/through an emergency heal to the tank etc. Or am I supposed to have tunnel vision in instances and just do DPS?

Oh it's very useful. That's the problem. It's a little thing that the RK doesn't really even think about that massively improves their value to groups. That's why the class can't have DPS on par with Hunters so long as they keep that skill (and the mit debuffs). If RK's don't have DPS on par with Hunters they will generally only ever get one or two RK's into a group as DPS since this misc support power hits diminishing returns pretty quickly.

I completely understand what you are saying, I would never go as healer into landscape, that's what the dps line is for. But the other spells I have access to as the class or by putting extra points in another tree, that is what makes every class unique and special. The last thing I want Lotro to do is to balance classes by trimming everything from a dps spec that isn't dps.

There's probably going to be a little confusion over this point between us. I assume you are referring to things like Mending Verse from the RK's heal line but this isn't actually valuable in any way as far as I'm concerned. From my perspective killing the mob does a lot more to keep friends alive than using that one heal. A lot of the things you consider to be good here I would consider to be worthless in practice. Technically you would always be able to trait into one of your other specs but you'd have to make an actual trade off for that utility which is a fair compromise.

[Nouri]

Oh it's very useful. That's the problem. It's a little thing that the RK doesn't really even think about that massively improves their value to groups. That's why the class can't have DPS on par with Hunters so long as they keep that skill (and the mit debuffs). If RK's don't have DPS on par with Hunters they will generally only ever get one or two RK's into a group as DPS since this misc support power hits diminishing returns pretty quickly.



There's probably going to be a little confusion over this point between us. I assume you are referring to things like Mending Verse from the RK's heal line but this isn't actually valuable in any way as far as I'm concerned. From my perspective killing the mob does a lot more to keep friends alive than using that one heal. A lot of the things you consider to be good here I would consider to be worthless in practice. Technically you would always be able to trait into one of your other specs but you'd have to make an actual trade off for that utility which is a fair compromise.

I really does sound, though, like you think if a class is able to do decent DPS, they should not be able to do anything else. Furthermore, it sounds like you are of the opinion that there should really be only three toon types; heals, support and DPS, and that when you spec into one of those three lines, you should have nothing in the other two. So, burgs, RK, wardens, champs...... any class that specs DPS should have comparable DPS to any other class that specs DPS, and everything is equal because anyone who does that can't res, can't mez, no banners, no dazes, no debuffs, nada.

[Joedangod]

I really does sound, though, like you think if a class is able to do decent DPS, they should not be able to do anything else.

Yeah. If you're fully specced into your DPS line, DPS should be pretty much all you do. Sticking big random other abilities into this creates imbalance. A 5% mit debuff or so is fine; 15% armour and 15% fire mit debuffs along with a rez attached to a DPS line is not fine.

Furthermore, it sounds like you are of the opinion that there should really be only three toon types; heals, support and DPS, and that when you spec into one of those three lines, you should have nothing in the other two. So, burgs, RK, wardens, champs...... any class that specs DPS should have comparable DPS to any other class that specs DPS, and everything is equal because anyone who does that can't res, can't mez, no banners, no dazes, no debuffs, nada.

Technically there would be 6 different traitline categories (Tank/Heal/ST DPS/AoE DPS/CC & Debuffs/Buffs & Support). I'm not saying that the off-role abilities off classes should be entirely removed, they should just be reduced so that they don't give a particular traitline an edge over all the others in its category.

This isn't a hard concept to grasp guys; If I spec a Blue Beorning I should be as acceptable a choice for tank as a Blue Guardian, if I spec Blue RK I should be as acceptable a choice of healer as Blue Minstrel and if I spec Red Champion I should be as acceptable a choice of ST DPS as a Red Hunter and that all applies in reverse as well. There shouldn't be dead traitlines rolling around this game, that's just a recipe for misery.

[Fraushgrish2]

do you really dont understand that dummyparse is not = raid dps parse?
to give you an example:before the changes i did 65k dps with my burgler on that dummy and 50k with my rk.
in a raid tho my rk did 120k dps and my burg only 80k.do you get it now?

lol just saying bro if ur parsing 50k on rk on a training dummy pre U22.2 you couldnt do 120k in raid

I've done 123k in raid but i also parse 87k on dummies the numbers are close then 50-120k

[Joedangod]

lol just saying bro if ur parsing 50k on rk on a training dummy pre U22.2 you couldnt do 120k in raid

I've done 123k in raid but i also parse 87k on dummies the numbers are close then 50-120k

We don't have the Tavern dummies on live. What are you comparing here?

[wispsong]

Yeah. If you're fully specced into your DPS line, DPS should be pretty much all you do. Sticking big random other abilities into this creates imbalance. A 5% mit debuff or so is fine; 15% armour and 15% fire mit debuffs along with a rez attached to a DPS line is not fine.



Technically there would be 6 different traitline categories (Tank/Heal/ST DPS/AoE DPS/CC & Debuffs/Buffs & Support). I'm not saying that the off-role abilities off classes should be entirely removed, they should just be reduced so that they don't give a particular traitline an edge over all the others in its category.

This isn't a hard concept to grasp guys; If I spec a Blue Beorning I should be as acceptable a choice for tank as a Blue Guardian, if I spec Blue RK I should be as acceptable a choice of healer as Blue Minstrel and if I spec Red Champion I should be as acceptable a choice of ST DPS as a Red Hunter and that all applies in reverse as well. There shouldn't be dead traitlines rolling around this game, that's just a recipe for misery.

So I did not misunderstand you. This is exactly what would destroy the game for me. I understand where you are coming from as a raider wanting everybody who has the trait spec to have the same chance for the job. But as a player who enjoys landscape with different classes who have different dps and abilities this would really destroy part of the fun for me. The uniqueness of the classes would be taken away due to this.
I remember doing a 3-man Pelennor (the one with the mounts) instance as red mini with blue RK and warden or captain. And was I glad to have battle rez for the healer and at least a mediocre heal for the tank. It saved the run and we were able to get down that last boss. With a hunter who has higher dps we might not have gotten in trouble but that is the joy of different classes. I don't want x specs, I want y classes with different specs each with class abilities covering all specs which then with spec choice just enhance that choice through the trait points and maybe additional skills. A mini without heals is just not a mini for example.

[Nouri]

Each traitline has a unique way of functioning that isn't suddenly lost if the miscellaneous support aspects are neutered.

Yes, much of it would be. Taking away what you're talking about here, or making it insignificant, and then making it so that all DPS, Heals, CC and such was equal among all classes that speced in that line would really not be that much different than giving everyone specing the same line the same skills, but just putting different icons and animations on them. The uniqueness of the classes would be gone.

[Joedangod]

The uniqueness of the classes would be gone.

No, they'd stay pretty different. Take Wardens and Hunters right now; if we bump warden DPS up a bit to match Red Hunter and took away NS to even it out a bit would these two classes be the same in any real way? Nope. Blue Champion and Yellow Guardian, both are offensive tanks yet one focuses on giving itself buffs whilst the other focuses on giving enemies debuffs. Similar yet different. They'd compete yet remain unique.

[Nouri]

No, they'd stay pretty different. Take Wardens and Hunters right now; if we bump warden DPS up a bit to match Red Hunter and took away NS to even it out a bit would these two classes be the same in any real way? Nope. Blue Champion and Yellow Guardian, both are offensive tanks yet one focuses on giving itself buffs whilst the other focuses on giving enemies debuffs. Similar yet different. They'd compete yet remain unique.

So, while they're nerfing RKs' support skills, should they also be getting rid of Scribe a New Ending, Nothing Truly Ends (in anything but blue line), Essence of Winter, Flurry of Words? Just strip that class down to the bare bones heal or DPS skills, and then give them a healing and DPS boost?

[wispsong]

No, they'd stay pretty different. Take Wardens and Hunters right now; if we bump warden DPS up a bit to match Red Hunter and took away NS to even it out a bit would these two classes be the same in any real way? Nope. Blue Champion and Yellow Guardian, both are offensive tanks yet one focuses on giving itself buffs whilst the other focuses on giving enemies debuffs. Similar yet different. They'd compete yet remain unique.

Their dps might be accomplished differently. But in order to be viable each dps spec would have to put out the same dps within a fight. The uniqueness of the classes is not just dps or whatever trait you look at though. It's the combination of all possibilities this class has. Than a particular set of skills is enhanced through the spec they use.


You look at this like somebody who wants perfect balance concerning specs, I prefer uniqueness of a class as a whole above that.

I don't know how else to explain it. We look at this from different points of view. You fundamentally want to change the game and I hope that this will never happen.

[Joedangod]

The uniqueness of the classes is not just dps or whatever trait you look at though. It's the combination of all possibilities this class has. Than a particular set of skills is enhanced through the spec they use.

From a technical standpoint you'd still be able to create weird traitline combinations and thus have a red RK with heals or whatever else you want. You'd just have to make DPS tradeoffs to achieve that as you spend more points in blue than red/yellow. That's pretty fair.

I'm still going to insist that their uniqueness is more to do with how they play than what random miscellaneous ability they can fire off in niche scenarios though. I've played a lot of red RK, the debuffs/rez really don't factor into the playstyle/gameplay at all and their loss is a fair compromise for competitive DPS.

[wispsong]

From a technical standpoint you'd still be able to create weird traitline combinations and thus have a red RK with heals or whatever else you want. You'd just have to make DPS tradeoffs to achieve that as you spend more points in blue than red/yellow. That's pretty fair.

I'm still going to insist that their uniqueness is more to do with how they play than what random miscellaneous ability they can fire off in niche scenarios though. I've played a lot of red RK, the debuffs/rez really don't factor into the playstyle/gameplay at all and their loss is a fair compromise for competitive DPS.

And that puts us right back where we are. So might as well keep it as is.

[Joedangod]

And that puts us right back where we are. So might as well keep it as is.

Well no. Currently RK is in exactly the spot it should be if it retains all of its current abilities and you can see how happy that is making several players in this thread. They want it to be back up to being a competitive DPS, well to do that it'll need to lose a fair bit of the utility it brings. If it doesn't lose the utility it shouldn't get any buffs, after all, it's still guaranteed a raid spot as things currently stand simply because it massively debuffs fire mits, brings more rezzes than the healer and pulls decent DPS on top of that.

[Remcosajax]

your lies

Your RK didn't do 90k dps either

blatant numerical lies

Show a screenshot of Combat Analysis

you made up those numbers because I already know that you did.