Warden Tank feedback U22.2

[JLotro]

Latest Warden tank changes are mostly an improvement. Thanks!

A few things that would be helpful:

1. Increase the countdown of "Fellowship Protector" from 30 secs to 60 secs.
Reason: To keep it up requires using Conviction a bit too often in light of all the other things in our rotation.

2. Make "Battle Prep" instant cast rather than a 2 second wait.
Reason: All the pre-pull prepping is annoying for others to wait for.

3. Put back some scaling mit bufs to Defiant Challenge.
For example 5% initially, plus an additional 1% per target (to a max of 5). So in total you could get 10% with multiple targets.
Reason: Losing that scaling really hurts the wardens multi-mob handling.

[Hildilas]

Latest Warden tank changes are mostly an improvement. Thanks!

A few things that would be helpful:

1. Increase the countdown of "Fellowship Protector" from 30 secs to 60 secs.
Reason: To keep it up requires using Conviction a bit too often in light of all the other things in our rotation.

2. Make "Battle Prep" instant cast rather than a 2 second wait.
Reason: All the pre-pull prepping is annoying for others to wait for.

3. Put back some scaling mit bufs to Defiant Challenge.
For example 5% initially, plus an additional 1% per target (to a max of 5). So in total you could get 10% with multiple targets.
Reason: Losing that scaling really hurts the wardens multi-mob handling.

+ buff Morale leech about... 300%
+ buff sel heals about 300%

You did not scale them to lvl 115...Just as sone other stats but self heals were very important for warden tanks. They are our kind of "panic" / skills to help the healer.

[JLotro]

+ buff Morale leech about... 300%
+ buff sel heals about 300%

You did not scale them to lvl 115...Just as sone other stats but self heals were very important for warden tanks. They are our kind of "panic" / skills to help the healer.

I agree they are a bit weak -- maybe a 75% increase would be fair.
Reducing damage is a big deal though, because it gives you time to respond.

[Kander]

I agree they are a bit weak -- maybe a 75% increase would be fair.
Reducing damage is a big deal though, because it gives you time to respond.

This is from my memory so I can't be completely sure:
My self heals focusing only on heals (ST):
lvl 100 they were around 3k-4k hps.
lvl 105 they were around 4k-5k hps.
lvl 115 they are around 5k-6k hps.
Those are depending on your crit rating while tanking and all that. Basically they didn't scale properly: At lvl 100 tanks had around 40k morale, on lvl 105 tanks had around 60k morale, at lvl 115 they have 180k at least. Apart from that the damage received in tps got increased in the same or greater magnitude than morale of the tanks, yet the heals didn't scale. ST self heals could use a strong buff of around 50% increase. Morale taps on the other hand... they are basically useless now, you get way more HPS by only spamming resolution than the time it takes to heal with EoB. I'd say to increase morale taps by at least the damage increase from enemies, around 200% increase. That will certainly help in aoe fights for warden.

[Hildilas]

I agree they are a bit weak -- maybe a 75% increase would be fair.
Reducing damage is a big deal though, because it gives you time to respond.

That would be about 7-8k non crit with our best heal...Should be 10k at least...But still. Without buffs we're now at 3xmorale of 105...so our heals/leeches should adjust to that.

[JLotro]

That would be about 7-8k non crit with our best heal...Should be 10k at least...But still. Without buffs we're now at 3xmorale of 105...so our heals/leeches should adjust to that.

I'm feeling more convinced that your 3X estimate was right.
As I put on more tank gear and my crit heals reduce it's not so good. :-(

[siipperi]

It's clear self healing HPS on warden can't be even close on same magnitude as it was before in terms of morale/HPS because significant increase on mitigation pool. You as a class can have one but not both.

[Imbrahil]

It's clear self healing HPS on warden can't be even close on same magnitude as it was before in terms of morale/HPS because significant increase on mitigation pool. You as a class can have one but not both.

Well look..., We have to do twice, if not thrice the work other Tanks have to do to maintain our mitigations (65%). Guardians don't have to work for their mitigations, if they have reached 70%; neither do have Captains - maintaining Battle Hardened is really easy. But Wardens have to use an AOE-Forcetaunt (regardless of the current situation in the fight) every 20 seconds to maintain them - which is a terrible game design. We have a buffduration on our mitigation-giving Gambits of 30 seconds: this leaves us with around 12-15 seconds spare time to do other stuff than maintaining mitigtions. This is not very much - it's barely enough to keep 3 HoTs or 2 HoTs + inc. healing buff running. Or we can choose to keep mits+bpa-buffs running. Or mits+Dmg-Gambits...
My point is: Wardens don't have a real benefit in comparison to other tanks. If you can name one, besides an AOE-Taunt every 20 seconds, please do it. Wardens take more damage than Guards/Captains (70% mitigations for Guardians + Redirect / 60% for Captains + Battle Hardened). We don't have emergency skills like Guardians/Captains. We only have the passive security of Never Surrender. We don't provide really meaningfull buffs (like Captains) to the group: -mitigations from marked/diminished Target and -20% inductions can't compensate the circumstances above enough.

Therefore, Wardens need a way to benefit the group/the group-setting. This could be very well the ability to survive on our own, like we once did. This would be a relief for the (recently nerfed) Minstrels. I really second, that our self-heals and moral-taps should be scaled appropriately. I don't see SSG change their Boss-Design in the future (making boss-attacks avoidable and therefore giving Warden an Edge over other tanks). So we need an aspect to seperate ourselfs from other tanks. A 10k Restoration (tooltip) wouldn't be overpowered in my opinion. Bare in mind, that we can reach 200k moral with ease. If our heals stay this way, they are simply not worth using regarding our Moral-Pools.

[danno8]

In regards to Battle Prep, I would suggest doing away with the weird animations for the single builders and just have them be an instant - no cooldown version of themselves, similar to how the double ones have no animation and are instant with no CD at all (or close to instant anyway).

[LagunaD2]

In regards to Battle Prep, I would suggest doing away with the weird animations for the single builders and just have them be an instant - no cooldown version of themselves, similar to how the double ones have no animation and are instant with no CD at all (or close to instant anyway).

I'd go even further. Battle Prep should be the default state for a Warden while out of combat and not targeting a hostile. There is no need for that to be an active skill.

An even more radical QoL change would be make gambits clickable while out of combat. So you could put your pre-battle prep on a hotbar and just click the skills one by one.

In the same spirit of reducing actionbar clutter, what is the point of having separate abilities for Marked/Diminished Target? Combine them.

[Hildilas]

It's clear self healing HPS on warden can't be even close on same magnitude as it was before in terms of morale/HPS because significant increase on mitigation pool. You as a class can have one but not both.

We wouldn't need better self heal If we had a more good panics like the guard. I even like the Beo panic more than NS...NS is pure BS...Like I said: Self heals are our panics or our way to compensate that we don't have good panics. + what imbrahil said.

[Krindel]

Please fix skill delay of Impressive Flourish, War-Cry, Brink of Victory, Desolation, Piercing Cry and Safeguard. Skill Lag after this gambits slowing gambit flow significantly.
On video there are gambits with lag after animation and some gambits without this bug, so you can see different gambit flow speed.


Can you tell us, what you are planning for next update? There are still lot of things to do with blue line:

• polish gambits animations
• increase gambit buff duration
• increase healing of Life Taps and HoTs, mainly Life Taps are important part of our aoe tanking survivability
• Never Surrender should be removed from Red and Yellow line, start cooldown after heal proc, not immediatelly after using of skill, to prevent double cast
• Remove mitigation buffs from Defiant Challenge and distribute +5% Physical and Tactical Mitigation buff to Shield Tactics and Shield Mastery gambits, increase cooldown of Defiant Challenge
• We need proper panic skill with - Incomming damage, with short duration and long cooldown. Change For the Free people cap stone skill to our panic skill
• Elegant Finish blue line set bonus - buffs for finishing gambits should be significant, like SoD +5% Evade chance, Conviction +5% Tactical mitigation, DoW +5% Physical Mitigation, CoS +5% Incomming healing, Restoration 10% initial morale heal
• Buffs to finishing gambits from gambit chains should be higher
• Revel in Combat blue line set bonus - life tap is laughable weak, scale up life tap so we will heal at least 1% of morale
• Do something with For the Free People, Impressive Flourish, War Cry traits
• Make passive warden skill +5% Spear damage, Increase intrinsic spear bleed significantly
• Change Fist Shield aoe light dots from tactical to melee skills or change agility contribution to tactical mastery from +5 to +8

[Axillo]

It's clear self healing HPS on warden can't be even close on same magnitude as it was before in terms of morale/HPS because significant increase on mitigation pool. You as a class can have one but not both.

Sipperi, you should check before writing anything on this forums!

Now compare HPS of guardian and compare HPS of warden.
Wardens HPS (3 minutes of fight) - 8439 hps
Guardians HPS (3 minutes of fight) - 8500 hps.

I used all healing skills on warden same as on guardian.



Guardian got 72% mits , 4 emergency skills, 1 skill for decreasing incoming damage up to -35%.

Warden got 65% in ideal situation, o emergency skills, i skills for decreasing incoming damage.

Wardens need huge heal buff.

[IMG] [/IMG]

[Axillo]

Well look..., We have to do twice, if not thrice the work other Tanks have to do to maintain our mitigations (65%). Guardians don't have to work for their mitigations, if they have reached 70%; neither do have Captains - maintaining Battle Hardened is really easy. But Wardens have to use an AOE-Forcetaunt (regardless of the current situation in the fight) every 20 seconds to maintain them - which is a terrible game design. We have a buffduration on our mitigation-giving Gambits of 30 seconds: this leaves us with around 12-15 seconds spare time to do other stuff than maintaining mitigtions. This is not very much - it's barely enough to keep 3 HoTs or 2 HoTs + inc. healing buff running. Or we can choose to keep mits+bpa-buffs running. Or mits+Dmg-Gambits...
My point is: Wardens don't have a real benefit in comparison to other tanks. If you can name one, besides an AOE-Taunt every 20 seconds, please do it. Wardens take more damage than Guards/Captains (70% mitigations for Guardians + Redirect / 60% for Captains + Battle Hardened). We don't have emergency skills like Guardians/Captains. We only have the passive security of Never Surrender. We don't provide really meaningfull buffs (like Captains) to the group: -mitigations from marked/diminished Target and -20% inductions can't compensate the circumstances above enough.

Therefore, Wardens need a way to benefit the group/the group-setting. This could be very well the ability to survive on our own, like we once did. This would be a relief for the (recently nerfed) Minstrels. I really second, that our self-heals and moral-taps should be scaled appropriately. I don't see SSG change their Boss-Design in the future (making boss-attacks avoidable and therefore giving Warden an Edge over other tanks). So we need an aspect to seperate ourselfs from other tanks. A 10k Restoration (tooltip) wouldn't be overpowered in my opinion. Bare in mind, that we can reach 200k moral with ease. If our heals stay this way, they are simply not worth using regarding our Moral-Pools.

Agree with you.

[siipperi]

Sipperi, you should check before writing anything on this forums!

Now compare HPS of guardian and compare HPS of warden.
Wardens HPS (3 minutes of fight) - 8439 hps
Guardians HPS (3 minutes of fight) - 8500 hps.

I used all healing skills on warden same as on guardian.



Guardian got 72% mits , 4 emergency skills, 1 skill for decreasing incoming damage up to -35%.

Warden got 65% in ideal situation, o emergency skills, i skills for decreasing incoming damage.

Wardens need huge heal buff.

Well I can do over 40k HPS on guardian but it's irrelevant. Warden has sustained healing on boss fights so strong that you can just laugh at the 100k bleed for example in seregost. I have already detailed what is needed for class to make it perform better on trash tanking but increasing self healing significantly is bad way to go. I have said about 20% bigger morale leech and little bit to persevere and safeguard is fine but apart of that not needed further boosts to self heals. There are just handful of instances/raids where warden is not self sufficient and on such fights you should have healer in the first place.

[Axillo]

Well I can do over 40k HPS on guardian but it's irrelevant. Warden has sustained healing on boss fights so strong that you can just laugh at the 100k bleed for example in seregost. I have already detailed what is needed for class to make it perform better on trash tanking but increasing self healing significantly is bad way to go. I have said about 20% bigger morale leech and little bit to persevere and safeguard is fine but apart of that not needed further boosts to self heals. There are just handful of instances/raids where warden is not self sufficient and on such fights you should have healer in the first place.

Show me your 40 k hps please.

In the situation when you need to tank spiky strikes of bosses with 60-65% mits, you also need to use self heals and buff BPE to be a bit close to guardian that need to click 3 buttons to be buffed for BPE and mits for the whole fight with 70-72% mits.

Warden's TPS now 50% higher than guardians! Warden's healing can't overheal this damage.

I took Seregost as an example, when i tanked it with guardian i could alt-tab to watch some youtube videos then back with 50% morale.
When i do the same with warden - 10-15 seconds of afk and warden is defeated.

Warden need a huge healing upgrade. Or some survival skills with low cooldown. Or we should forget about warden tank.

[Elwha]

I'd go even further. Battle Prep should be the default state for a Warden while out of combat and not targeting a hostile. There is no need for that to be an active skill.

I couldn't agree more. Anyone who's played the Warden for years now knows this should have been done a long time ago. It's absurd we have to "prep", especially considering all the complaints regarding lag. Funny thing is did anyone notice the animation was tweaked and somewhat shortened? Our dev knows this is a problem. Instead of addressing the fact that battle prep is pointless, she cut a corner. #sadface

In the same spirit of reducing actionbar clutter, what is the point of having separate abilities for Marked/Diminished Target? Combine them.

Yep, it took all of one day to realize Marked/Diminished Target should be combined due to the benefit being so low. Making a class "expert" = more pointless button clicking? :|

[Elwha]

Please fix skill delay of Impressive Flourish, War-Cry, Brink of Victory, Desolation, Piercing Cry and Safeguard. Skill Lag after this gambits slowing gambit flow significantly.
On video there are gambits with lag after animation and some gambits without this bug, so you can see different gambit flow speed.


Can you tell us, what you are planning for next update? There are still lot of things to do with blue line:

• polish gambits animations
• increase gambit buff duration
• increase healing of Life Taps and HoTs, mainly Life Taps are important part of our aoe tanking survivability
• Never Surrender should be removed from Red and Yellow line, start cooldown after heal proc, not immediatelly after using of skill, to prevent double cast
• Remove mitigation buffs from Defiant Challenge and distribute +5% Physical and Tactical Mitigation buff to Shield Tactics and Shield Mastery gambits, increase cooldown of Defiant Challenge
• We need proper panic skill with - Incomming damage, with short duration and long cooldown. Change For the Free people cap stone skill to our panic skill
• Elegant Finish blue line set bonus - buffs for finishing gambits should be significant, like SoD +5% Evade chance, Conviction +5% Tactical mitigation, DoW +5% Physical Mitigation, CoS +5% Incomming healing, Restoration +10% morale initial heal
• Buffs to finishing gambits from gambit chains should be higher
• Revel in Combat blue line set bonus - life tap is laughable weak, scale up life tap so we will heal at least 1% of morale
• Do something with For the Free People, Impressive Flourish, War Cry traits
• Make passive warden skill +5% Spear damage, Increase intrinsic spear bleed significantly
• Change Fist Shield aoe light dots from tactical to melee skills or change agility contribution to tactical mastery from +5 to +8

Good list. However, if Never Surrender is removed from red and yellow line, our passive -outgoing healing modifier needs to be removed and our HoTs need to be scaled for all trait lines.

[Hildilas]

Show me your 40 k hps please.

And show ME how you easily heal against a 100k wound on your own pls O.o The way you normally play Sere is by kiting so you won't get the wound so you won't die...

Not sure If he even plays a warden or a guardian? 40k hps? We wouldn't need a healer in raid xD

[siipperi]

And show ME how you easily heal against a 100k wound on your own pls O.o The way you normally play Sere is by kiting so you won't get the wound so you won't die...

Not sure If he even plays a warden or a guardian? 40k hps? We wouldn't need a healer in raid xD

I never BS

Good list. However, if Never Surrender is removed from red and yellow line, our passive -outgoing healing modifier needs to be removed and our HoTs need to be scaled for all trait lines.

I would say red needs even bigger healing nerf... They are self sufficient for most parts. Ridiculous healing still with just Restoration. To compensate this red should get as passive +2 bleed pulses and all raid set bonuses nerffed to just to +1 bleed pulses.

[Osglinthor]

I never BS





I would say red needs even bigger healing nerf... They are self sufficient for most parts. Ridiculous healing still with just Restoration. To compensate this red should get as passive +2 bleed pulses and all raid set bonuses nerffed to just to +1 bleed pulses.

Restoration in red line is in quite good spot considering on avarage it heals less than 1 press button blood arrow or self motivation.Lot of red survivability was fixed with DC change.With few more changes being required to put it in right place.

As for others asking for bigger heals what mostly needs to be done is increased gambit buff duration so you have room for heals with maybe +1 pulse exclusive to blue line to hots,slight crit chance and crit magnitude also reserved to blue and maybe just slight increase to morale taps.Then tweak numbers from there.

[Anduil]

I would say red needs even bigger healing nerf... They are self sufficient for most parts. Ridiculous healing still with just Restoration. To compensate this red should get as passive +2 bleed pulses and all raid set bonuses nerffed to just to +1 bleed pulses.

Man, this time you are really surpassing yourself.

You promote further nerf on redline survivability, and generously offer something for "compensation" that compensates for nothing.
Others have suggested to put +2 pulses in traitline and +1 pulse on armor-set before you, but in a general context of balancing future armor-set-boni, in order to make classes viable inherently via traits and not via set-boni.

This may be disillusioning for you, but your attitude regarding wardens and the intentions of your "input" is as obvious as boring. It´s always the same, since years. Just one of countless examples:
When many raid wardens stated that 30 seconds buff-duration is too short, I did forsee your reply that 40 seconds are not needed. Even worse is that you substantiated your opinion with the statement that we could have 40 seconds - knowing that SSG has plans to rework LI system and that unimbued LI legacys will most likely disappear. That´s just pathetic.

Cheers,
Vala

[siipperi]

Man, this time you are really surpassing yourself.

You promote further nerf on redline survivability, and generously offer something for "compensation" that compensates for nothing.
Others have suggested to put +2 pulses in traitline and +1 pulse on armor-set before you, but in a general context of balancing future armor-set-boni, in order to make classes viable inherently via traits and not via set-boni.

This may be disillusioning for you, but your attitude regarding wardens and the intentions of your "input" is as obvious as boring. It´s always the same, since years. Just one of countless examples:
When many raid wardens stated that 30 seconds buff-duration is too short, I did forsee your reply that 40 seconds are not needed. Even worse is that you substantiated your opinion with the statement that we could have 40 seconds - knowing that SSG has plans to rework LI system and that unimbued LI legacys will most likely disappear. That´s just pathetic.

Cheers,
Vala

Fact remains that 90% of wardens does not have access to such set bonus. Once we get new level cap we don't have that set bonus easily available without significant hit on the offensive stats. Thus your DPS takes huge hit. have fun doing again sub bar DPS compared to other classes. Will you be here accepting your fate or complaining about low DPS?

Fact remains warden set bonus totally changes gameplay of red warden. Allowing them to do totally different rotation than warden without set bonus. This level of gameplay altering should not be how set bonuses in this games should work.

None of DPS classes should have ability to switch to high sustained HPS which red warden has. There are other classes that needs nerf but since it's warden thread I'm focusing on warden.

And on rest I have stated. I stand correct.

[Anduil]

Fact remains that 90% of wardens does not have access to such set bonus. Once we get new level cap we don't have that set bonus easily available without significant hit on the offensive stats. Thus your DPS takes huge hit. have fun doing again sub bar DPS compared to other classes. Will you be here accepting your fate or complaining about low DPS?

Fact remains warden set bonus totally changes gameplay of red warden. Allowing them to do totally different rotation than warden without set bonus. This level of gameplay altering should not be how set bonuses in this games should work.

None of DPS classes should have ability to switch to high sustained HPS which red warden has. There are other classes that needs nerf but since it's warden thread I'm focusing on warden.

And on rest I have stated. I stand correct.

I did make similar suggestions (put majority of things that make certain classes viable on traits rather than on set-boni) 2 years ago. It´s not a new issue.
Stop selling those ideas as yours and calling them a compensation. Don´t tell me how +3 pulses affect warden rotation & gameplay, as if I did not know that. Your are just distracting.

As Osglinthor already pointed out, restoration heals less than 1-click-buttons of other classes and means a higher dps loss.
If your point is that most other classes self-heals should be nerved as well, then state it clearly.

Cheers,
Vala

[gaara908776]

Fact remains that 90% of wardens does not have access to such set bonus. Once we get new level cap we don't have that set bonus easily available without significant hit on the offensive stats. Thus your DPS takes huge hit. have fun doing again sub bar DPS compared to other classes. Will you be here accepting your fate or complaining about low DPS?

Fact remains warden set bonus totally changes gameplay of red warden. Allowing them to do totally different rotation than warden without set bonus. This level of gameplay altering should not be how set bonuses in this games should work.

None of DPS classes should have ability to switch to high sustained HPS which red warden has. There are other classes that needs nerf but since it's warden thread I'm focusing on warden.

And on rest I have stated. I stand correct.

Siiperi,

I don't understand why you always have to come off so cocky and condescending to other players on class forums. There are some of us here who are at the very least equally experienced, or even more experience with Warden class as you are. I don't think anyone disagrees that the disparity between Warden with DoT set bonus and Warden without set bonus is way too large. However, Red line Warden definitely doesn't need its healing nerfed further. We're already one of the squishiest melee DPS in a raid and have -50% healing in Red Line. Additionally, there is no room in Red line rotation in a Raid because keeping up 9-10 DoT's takes all time. If a Warden were to be using Restoration in Red Line rotation he would be losing a significant amount of DPS. Personally, I think they should move +2 DoT pulse to cap stone that we already have in trait line, so it is no longer accessible to Blue Line Wardens. They should replace Honed Spikes with a duration trait to Adroit Maneuver/Warden's Triumph and move it down in the trait line to where +2 DoT's formerly was. Maintaining 9 DoT's as only source of DPS just isn't healthy for the class. Any burst damage potential is pretty much thrown away, and if the dev's attempt to boost burst Damage, it ends up making Warden's too OP because all of their Damage is inherently sustained through DoT's.

In this way, Warden's would be rewarded for traiting more points in Red Line and rotation would become more fluid and balanced around keeping up 2x self buffs through Adroit/Triumph while maintaining our 4-6 highest DoT abilities. Thus, Fist-Shield gambits wouldn't be as heavily relied upon in a Single Target situation.