Penetrating Shot vs Light Oil

[Michaleo]

The new debuff on Penetrating Shot is -5% Physical Mitigation. If I use Light or Fire Oil, doesn't it change the damage type to tactical, which means the debuff won't help in that case?

Is the weakness of different mobs to different kinds of damage quantified anywhere? Not sure how I decide whether Beleriand damage with -5% Physical Mitigation is better than Light damage without the debuff?

[Wolf2x]

Using Fire or Light oil doesn't change your damage type to Tactical, its still Physical damage.

Though when your damage calculations are being made, it checks the targets Tactical mitigation instead of Physical mitigation. (If you are using fire or light oil).

So yeah, If you are playing solo, not getting either of the oils will result in higher damage thanks to the Phys mit checks and the pen shot debuff. In a group with LM however, the fire mitigation debuffs will far outweigh the phys mit debuff from pen shot, so you obviously want to use Fire oil in that case

[Eldarond_EU]

Though when your damage calculations are being made, it checks the targets Tactical mitigation instead of Physical mitigation. (If you are using fire or light oil).

So yeah, If you are playing solo, not getting either of the oils will result in higher damage thanks to the Phys mit checks and the pen shot debuff. In a group with LM however, the fire mitigation debuffs will far outweigh the phys mit debuff from pen shot, so you obviously want to use Fire oil in that case

This is wrong. It still checks physical mitigations when damage calculations are being made, because damage is physical. Fire and Light damage can be tactical, but also Fire and Light damage can be physical. This is easy to test on lvl 115 mobs by looking at crit damage values with all other factors being equal. With Fire oils and LM you get tar/benediction debuffs on top of -5% physical debuff. This is for PvE, did not test for PvP.

[Oelle]

This is wrong. It still checks physical mitigations when damage calculations are being made, because damage is physical. Fire and Light damage can be tactical, but also Fire and Light damage can be physical. This is easy to test on lvl 115 mobs by looking at crit damage values with all other factors being equal. With Fire oils and LM you get tar/benediction debuffs on top of -5% physical debuff. This is for PvE, did not test for PvP.

if thats true, its bugged.
A skill should never check/profit from different mitigation types.

Source of all hunters attacks always is physical mastery, no matter which attack is used. so source is physical.
But damage type concerning enemies mitigations should be whatever weapon dps type is (common, beleriand, ancient dwarf (which all fall unter physical)) or oil (light/fire, which falls under tactical), not both.
How it should work is: soloplay, without oil should be strongest, unless enemies have lower mits against fire/light per se (common mits usually are the highest, but special types mostly are in the same range like tactical types).
with minstrel, light debuff is stronger than 5% physical -> light oil.
with RK/LM, fire debuffs are much stronger than anything else -> fire oil.

[Michaleo]

It is more complicated than I thought. If someone has a consistent set of terminology to explain this, I'd be happy to use it.

It was imprecise of me to say that the damage type was changed to tactical. Hunter ranged attacks are "physical", using physical mastery and subject to block and evade, even when Light or Fire Oil are used. Other classes may have "tactical" attacks that use tactical mastery and may be resisted but not subject to b/p/e.

I assume the variation in vulnerability to different types of damage (Beleriand, Light, Fire, etc.) of particular mobs is determined by their mitigations, but cannot say for sure. Exactly how it is calculated doesn't matter to me, just what the net result is for different situations. (If creeps work the same as mobs, someone could do some tests to get more details.)

To try to answer my own question, I ran some tests using Barbed Arrow and Exsanguinate, which generate bleed pulses. For whatever reason, both the initial hit and the bleed pulses for Exsanguinate do Light Damage.

Without oils, if you do a Penetrating Shot after a Barbed Arrow and a few bleed pulses, you will see an increase in the damage amounts for subsequent pulses.

You will not see an increase if you do the same experiment with Exsanguinate. Nor do you see an increase for Barbed Arrow if you use Light Oil (It changes the name to Eldarin Arrow and the pulses to Glowing Arrow).

The fact that the Penetrating Shot Physical Mitigation debuff does not affect the damage when using Light Oil says it is not using Physical Mitigation to determine the damage.

I tested using Light Oil vs Penetrating Shot on orcs, who are more susceptible to Light Damage. The Penetrating Shot -5% Physical Mitigation debuff increased damage about twice as much as using Light Oil. This suggests that when the Penetrating Shot debuff is up, oils will cause you to do less damage. There's no easy way to compute the value of the chance to blind a mob (Light Oil) or add a DoT (Fire Oil).

The bottom line seems to be that hunter oils are obsolete.

[Wolf2x]

This is wrong. It still checks physical mitigations when damage calculations are being made, because damage is physical. Fire and Light damage can be tactical, but also Fire and Light damage can be physical. This is easy to test on lvl 115 mobs by looking at crit damage values with all other factors being equal. With Fire oils and LM you get tar/benediction debuffs on top of -5% physical debuff. This is for PvE, did not test for PvP.

Hello,

I just did a quick testing against one of those mini bosses in Agarnaith, just to make sure. Here are the results;


Without oil - with pen shot debuff:

"scored a critical hit with Improved Quick Shot on Agonakur Dusktooth for 26,091 Beleriand damage to Morale."

With fire oil - With pen shot debuff:

"scored a critical hit with Imp. Quick Shot: Flaming Arrow on Agonakur Dusktooth for 21,938 Fire damage to Morale. "

With fire oil - without pen shot debuff:

"scored a critical hit with Imp. Quick Shot: Flaming Arrow on Agonakur Dusktooth for 21,938 Fire damage to Morale."


Also tested it against other 115 mobs around the area just in case Agonakur had weird phys/tact mit balance, The critical hit with and without the pen shot debuff was always the same with fire oil active.

[Oelle]

The bottom line seems to be that hunter oils are obsolete.

Well... no. Only in solo-play
See my last post.
All other mit-debuffs from other classes are stronger than 5%
And I actually see this as something good, that its not per se better to use all available consumables, but to have consumables be situational.

[Thorondir]

This is wrong. It still checks physical mitigations when damage calculations are being made, because damage is physical. Fire and Light damage can be tactical, but also Fire and Light damage can be physical. This is easy to test on lvl 115 mobs by looking at crit damage values with all other factors being equal. With Fire oils and LM you get tar/benediction debuffs on top of -5% physical debuff. This is for PvE, did not test for PvP.

Wrong. Fire and Light Damage ALWAYS check against the tactical mitigation of the target being hit, because they are "tactical (type)" damage skills. But, hunter skills always stay "ranged (source)" skills and thus scale with Physical Mastery.

NOTE: there is also the "tactical (source)" modifier which indicates that the skill is a tactical skill, that scales with tactical mastery, but just because it is one, does not mean it does tactical damage. E.g. the minstrels swords with one of the drums that change the damage type to Ancient Dwarfen will result in a "tactical (source)" skill that checks the physical mitigation on the target. The same hold for any other skills - the "damage (source)" property defines with what a skills scales (melee, ranged -> physical mastery, tactical -> tactical mastery), the "damage (type)" property defines against which mitigation it is checked.

[mikkye]

if thats true, its bugged.
A skill should never check/profit from different mitigation types.

Source of all hunters attacks always is physical mastery, no matter which attack is used. so source is physical.
But damage type concerning enemies mitigations should be whatever weapon dps type is (common, beleriand, ancient dwarf (which all fall unter physical)) or oil (light/fire, which falls under tactical), not both.
How it should work is: soloplay, without oil should be strongest, unless enemies have lower mits against fire/light per se (common mits usually are the highest, but special types mostly are in the same range like tactical types).
with minstrel, light debuff is stronger than 5% physical -> light oil.
with RK/LM, fire debuffs are much stronger than anything else -> fire oil.

Well that would be unfair and lore breaking fire oil's signify alot to me as a hunter main, If fire dmg dot's


Lets say if our fire oils actually did a real dot on critical dmg I would enjoy them abrring it from counting as fire mitigation but that is not the case 336 fire dmg which often get's resisted to show any bonus in overall DPS,
Light oil miss chance is bugged it does work indeed but no way its 10% if t offer's a real miss chance or -5% avoidances on crits which is probs better it would be something I can understand that way I can go yellow line support in red for debuffing en shot parry/evade/block + 10% crit inc chance + -5% phy mitigations that alone would fix our yellow line and make aus utility class thus making our only role not dps which means our dmg one can be scaled down since we can offer different things to the fellowship


Also to note exsanguinate + heartseeker are not fire mitigated both are descent dmg'ing skills contributing to our total dps output


To remind the original poster and dev's I highly anticipate playing yellowline as a support debuffer 1 day and if you can make this happen I would glady sit aside silent if you chose to tone down our damage abit since then we would be utility class


and the light dmg debuf does work as on boss 1 in cos I do higher dmg with red cappy banner ob buffs rather fire only beneficial if in a raid/ rk/lm scenario but unbuffed i'l still rock fire oil for the win

[mikkye]

Well... no. Only in solo-play
See my last post.
All other mit-debuffs from other classes are stronger than 5%
And I actually see this as something good, that its not per se better to use all available consumables, but to have consumables be situational.

I do enjoy only 5% if was more than 5% I would condemn it as op/unneeded

[Despotis]

I don't remember at which point the damage types where changed to the current state, but this is how it worked:

- There is no physical/tactical damage source, only melee, ranged and tactical damage skills.
- The damage type determines which mitigation will be checked (ie Common/Westernesse/Beleriand etc go through physical mit, Fire/Light/Shadow/Lightning etc go through tactical mit.)