New "Legendary" server fails.

[maartena]

The more money they make from VIP means less is needed by the store revenue? Sorry to say but this is not how it works. No company has ever diminished their revenue stream because they found a new flowing river of revenue. The store is here to stay no matter how good or bad these new servers are. More money paid into LotRO means nothing to how much of a portion is dedicated to the future of LotRO. This game is already spoken for and its development cost are known to a fine degree much like any other product existing 10 to 20 years.

There will always be a balance that the game needs to maintain in order to keep playing. The loot box & key scheme has made a lot of players angry at SSG, but the Legendary Servers have made a lot of players return to the game. It is very possible that they will not change any of the key and loot box systems as they are TODAY, but at some point in the future accounting will come in to play as to how they decide on future revenue. And at that point, they WILL look at the amount of VIP subs they have, and how the income flow is from them..... and they WILL make future microtransaction decissions based on that.

If VIP sales decline, they have no choice but to implement future microtransactions and incentives. If VIP keeps going and increases in revenue, they will very likely make it much easier to get things in game without buying keys.

They aren't Smaug sitting on a pile of gold. They carefully measure their income and expenses, and they ensure they make a profit. But if they start leaning too far in the direction of microtransactions, they will eventually lose most players.

And quite frankly.... subscriptions WORK. Just look at Everquest 1, Everquest 2, World of Warcraft, Final Fantasy.... there are a number of games (some of which have been sold and resold) that maintain most of their income from steady subscriptions.

Micro transactions.... ALSO WORK! There are hundreds of games and thousands of mobile games that make their bread and butter of people purchasing things, many of which in the form of lootboxes and keys.

At SSG.... at least you have the CHOICE between subscriptions or microtransactions. I choose subscription over microtransactions, but you are free to choose the business model that works the best for you. I'd rather add to their profit margin as a subscriber than as one buying keys. And that might also be why the Legendary Server works for me, and is popular with many others. You don't need to buy ANY keys to get ahead.

[Hurin]

I haven't seen any substantial alternative to guarantee that SSG makes the required income they need to support the game. If I have missed a economical analysis from you regarding that, by all means.... point me to it. But stop bickering about the posting itself, which is something you seem to prefer.

I have posted a fairly basic economic model for a game like Lotro, and how they make money. They make money in two different ways (there is selling of expansions as well, but that is more static income, not recurring), and no matter how much you SAY you have written substantive replies.... I haven't seen a single one that establishes a different economic model. I don't have insight in SSG's accounting books, and neither do you. So we don't know exact numbers, we can only guess as to where they generate more income than others.

All I know is that we the players have substantial influence as to where most of their income comes from. Some prefer the Microtransactions model. Some prefer the Subscriptions model.... I prefer the Subscriptions model, and will continue to subscribe to support the game. If you think that besides these two models, there are different or better ways for SSG to make a profit on Lotro, I haven't seen any posts regarding that. I have a feeling that if you had to choose between a subscription model or a micro transaction model.... you might be leaning more towards a subscription model over a micro transactions, IF the content is worth paying for - and of THAT you might not be completely convinced. I could be wrong here, but it does seem you do NOT like the current Microtransactions model as implemented by SSG.

Lotro can lean more heavily towards the subscription model, or they can lean more heavily towards the micro transactions model. Where and how much they lean.... depends on how valuable people think VIP is vs keeping the Microtransactions model. I think VIP is worth it, others think it is "bait, hook, line, sinker" or something along those lines. I think the micro transactions model with keys and loot boxes is much much more "bait" than subscribing to a game I like, but hey.... that is just me. I think the Legendary Servers are a great additional perk to VIP, and I think they are worth paying for. Nevertheless, I would have paid for VIP either way.

So, I apologize if I missed a substantive post from you that describes a different economic model than what I have described above, and I would be more than happy to discuss an alternative way where SSG can make money to support the game and with it, its Legendary Servers.

I deleted my post. Because I knew this would be the response once a response was finally elicited.

As others have said, SSG is not going to eschew Store revenue because they have made more revenue from subscriptions. People must first recognize the nature of what the Store offers, stop tolerating the Store's offerings, and stop making excuses for them. That last part is key. But since everything SSG ever does is justified in so many eyes "because they are a business" and the game "doesn't pay for itself" (and other such obvious banalities), forgive me if I don't see this as some great victory for the anti-Store cabal.

--H

[Hurin]

At SSG.... at least you have the CHOICE between subscriptions or microtransactions.

Nope. The game is tainted in myriad ways by microtransactions. Even when they are eschewed by the individual.

And that might also be why the Legendary Server works for me, and is popular with many others. You don't need to buy ANY keys to get ahead.

Just wait.

--H

[maartena]

Yep, nobody disputes that the early game can be fun. But, as I've said, I'm sure the first few days of the Titanic's maiden voyage were fun as well.

And it's just astounding to me that people are boarding the ship knowing full well how that voyage ends up. All the while, of course, reminding us that the White Star Line is just trying to make a buck!

Thing is.... we don't know. Although the content will indeed largely the same, there is no way to know how the game will have changed over the next few years. By the time we make it to say..... Rohan, they may have overhauled the crafting system. They may have overhauled class balancing. They may have revamped complete zones (like they did with much of the pre-50 zones in the last few years) into new quest lines and possibly even new instances or revised ones....

You are probably right we can predict most of what is to come.... but not all of it. And besides, it is fun to relive some of the experiences! I am especially looking forward to Moria/Lothlorien being the cap level.

[Hurin]

Thing is.... we don't know. Although the content will indeed largely the same, there is no way to know how the game will have changed over the next few years. By the time we make it to say..... Rohan, they may have overhauled the crafting system. They may have overhauled class balancing. They may have revamped complete zones (like they did with much of the pre-50 zones in the last few years) into new quest lines and possibly even new instances or revised ones....

Crafting, class balancing, and a need for "revamped zones" are not the "ice berg" in the analogy that will inevitably be hit.

The most disappointing thing, though, is that I think you know that. But replied thus regardless.

--H

[Happybudgy]

I haven't seen any substantial alternative to guarantee that SSG makes the required income they need to support the game. If I have missed a economical analysis from you regarding that, by all means.... point me to it. But stop bickering about the posting itself, which is something you seem to prefer.

I have posted a fairly basic economic model for a game like Lotro, and how they make money. They make money in two different ways (there is selling of expansions as well, but that is more static income, not recurring), and no matter how much you SAY you have written substantive replies.... I haven't seen a single one that establishes a different economic model. I don't have insight in SSG's accounting books, and neither do you. So we don't know exact numbers, we can only guess as to where they generate more income than others.

All I know is that we the players have substantial influence as to where most of their income comes from. Some prefer the Microtransactions model. Some prefer the Subscriptions model.... I prefer the Subscriptions model, and will continue to subscribe to support the game. If you think that besides these two models, there are different or better ways for SSG to make a profit on Lotro, I haven't seen any posts regarding that. I have a feeling that if you had to choose between a subscription model or a micro transaction model.... you might be leaning more towards a subscription model over a micro transactions, IF the content is worth paying for - and of THAT you might not be completely convinced. I could be wrong here, but it does seem you do NOT like the current Microtransactions model as implemented by SSG.

Lotro can lean more heavily towards the subscription model, or they can lean more heavily towards the micro transactions model. Where and how much they lean.... depends on how valuable people think VIP is vs keeping the Microtransactions model. I think VIP is worth it, others think it is "bait, hook, line, sinker" or something along those lines. I think the micro transactions model with keys and loot boxes is much much more "bait" than subscribing to a game I like, but hey.... that is just me. I think the Legendary Servers are a great additional perk to VIP, and I think they are worth paying for. Nevertheless, I would have paid for VIP either way.

So, I apologize if I missed a substantive post from you that describes a different economic model than what I have described above, and I would be more than happy to discuss an alternative way where SSG can make money to support the game and with it, its Legendary Servers.

Way back when, Turbine showed a presentation at a Game Developers Conference in 2010 about what was profitable in DDO. You know what was most profitable? Players who had both VIP and access to microtransactions. They played longer (months) and spent more than VIPs without access to microtransactions and played a whole lot longer/spent more than f2p players with access to microtransactions. Here is a link to the video with that presentation: https://www.gdcvault.com/play/101223...O-Monetization

That's why I wrote: LS = hook, line, and sinker.

Going through both the above link and the presentation linked in my sig is eye opening

[Hurin]

Can't really take any further replies seriously or as given in good faith until a substantive/satisfactory answer is given to this post.

Honestly, I think we've all had enough of the "those who understand x, y, and z agree with me. . ." Shenanigans. Where x, y, and z, of course, are obvious truths that everyone understands and accepts.

Indeed, because they are such obvious truths, it seems apparent that there are other factors that are not being considered by the very folks who presume to educate us repeatedly on the obvious.

--H

[sapienze]

Crafting, class balancing, and a need for "revamped zones" are not the "ice berg" in the analogy that will inevitably be hit.

The most disappointing thing, though, is that I think you know that. But replied thus regardless.

--H

Yes the people to whom this is directed to know full well.


I read the post which prompted your reply. I was like huh? Then this came to mind from a time in the past. Its not 100% comparable to the discussion at hand, nonetheless I feel it will be understood.


“The Matrix is a system, Neo. That system is our enemy. But when you're inside, you look around, what do you see? Businessmen, teachers, lawyers, carpenters. The very minds of the people we are trying to save. But until we do, these people are still a part of that system and that makes them our enemy. You have to understand, most of these people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inured, so hopelessly dependent on the system, that they will fight to protect it.”
? Morpheus The Matrix


I've enjoyed LotRO ongoing 11 years, because it is a game. I've made friends and in moments those friendships have become more in the real world. I've paid my fair share to play this game. How this game has transformed over those years hasn't changed my understanding of what fun is. I'm not sure others can say the same.

[Bohemond71]

Yep, nobody disputes that the early game can be fun. But, as I've said, I'm sure the first few days of the Titanic's maiden voyage were fun as well.

And it's just astounding to me that people are boarding the ship knowing full well how that voyage ends up. All the while, of course, reminding us that the White Star Line is just trying to make a buck!

Excellent analogy.

In my case, I boarded the legendary server Titanic knowing full well that it was going to sink, and when (for me, that would most likely be a PvMP-less SoM).

So, like a time traveller who knows in advance how events will unfold, I stepped back in time, knowing I could get off before it went down, and that I could enjoy the journey until that point.

Unfortunately, I've stepped back into a different time line with broken itemisation and an essence grind at 50 .. in other words, a timeline during which the Titanic goes down much earlier than I had expected.

[kickman77]

I am half expecting the mark and medallion cost of the t1 scrolls of empowerment and delving to be increased and mark and medallion gains in all pre level 60 instances to be lowered maybe a month before the LS hits Moria. Just me speculating but, it is something I honestly expect (and it will probably go unannounced if it hasnt snuck into this update on bullroarer,m maybe I should log in and check_)

[Mirhaen]

@maartena

Thing is no one ever disputed that game needs to earn money to keep on going. All that people are trying to say is that they would want that to be done through quality work and improvements. And I personally saw in last few years quite a few suggestions on that subject. The going to shop to make things bearable system we have at the moment can work for short period of time, yet they are pushing it further, and that is what most worry about. And you having fun and no ear for others and sending people to other games is probably the worst reply on growing concerns. They are still here because they still care and criticism is raised out of concern and love for this game. That’s the kind of people one would want to have around and keep it. I’m surprised in your lack of understanding considering your ship sailing eventually into same port. And even if not, you display great lack of compassion and carelessness, yet trying to impress upon us how you are a great supporter of the game. Seems your support is very limited.

Question is also how much is enough or acceptable to pay. So I can say that myself and most of my kinnies are having yearly sub and we buy each expansion in cash. On top of it, most of us also buy LP once or twice per year. Quite a few are helpful in another ways, we had Council members, Palantir and BR testers, event organizers, random gifting people in the game with most sought items and what not. That is to say, we are not just paying and playing but also trying to contribute in other ways. And we all are quite disappointed lately, largely starting with Mordor where we got one unplayable instance and lootboxes. Now in Ironfold, one instance that is severely melee unfriendly, again capped/barred/bound just about anything that one can think of, keys now being store exclusive, news of upcoming relics removal through mithril coins and wondering what’s gonna hit us next. Quite frankly I am worried. And what is your advice on all of it, do please tell me. To stroll onto LS and forget about everything else until I’m actually there again?

[Frace]

Games don't need lootboxes to survive.

[kickman77]

I will just leave this here from today's patch noted

The stat spread and item level of lootbox gear below level 50 has been improved.

Bolded and colored by me. Cause ya know, I was recently told that if people were paying for subs, they would not need to rely on gimmicks, and since this effects mostly the 2 legendary servers........ wait I thought they were paying money so why would they need gimmick boxes.... let alone have the gear in them adjusted / improved (which most likely means better than anything else in game)

[ShireDweller]

I found this bullet point interesting too:

"Fixed a bug where picker boxes were incorrectly displaying an item level bonus for items, and then delivering with a newly-chosen, often different, item level bonus. Equipment displayed in a selection package will no longer show any form of item level bonus, however you still have a chance of receiving an item level bonus when those pieces of equipment are placed in your inventory."

So the answer to complaints about people not receiving the item level they were shown on the selection is to...wait for it...stop showing any item levels at all.

/slowclap

[sapienze]

@maartena

Thing is no one ever disputed that game needs to earn money to keep on going. All that people are trying to say is that they would want that to be done through quality work and improvements. And I personally saw in last few years quite a few suggestions on that subject. The going to shop to make things bearable system we have at the moment can work for short period of time, yet they are pushing it further, and that is what most worry about. And you having fun and no ear for others and sending people to other games is probably the worst reply on growing concerns. They are still here because they still care and criticism is raised out of concern and love for this game. That’s the kind of people one would want to have around and keep it. I’m surprised in your lack of understanding considering your ship sailing eventually into same port. And even if not, you display great lack of compassion and carelessness, yet trying to impress upon us how you are a great supporter of the game. Seems your support is very limited.

Question is also how much is enough or acceptable to pay. So I can say that myself and most of my kinnies are having yearly sub and we buy each expansion in cash. On top of it, most of us also buy LP once or twice per year. Quite a few are helpful in another ways, we had Council members, Palantir and BR testers, event organizers, random gifting people in the game with most sought items and what not. That is to say, we are not just paying and playing but also trying to contribute in other ways. And we all are quite disappointed lately, largely starting with Mordor where we got one unplayable instance and lootboxes. Now in Ironfold, one instance that is severely melee unfriendly, again capped/barred/bound just about anything that one can think of, keys now being store exclusive, news of upcoming relics removal through mithril coins and wondering what’s gonna hit us next. Quite frankly I am worried. And what is your advice on all of it, do please tell me. To stroll onto LS and forget about everything else until I’m actually there again?

This is very well articulated. The sentiments expressed here I imagine describe very many people's thoughts.


I make it a point every game session to do something for the brand new player and others in general. Example: Giving time to two newer players who play the same class as my main. This being the Minstrel. A couple who only leveled using redline and wanted to know some finer points of being healers in group situations. I spent two hours in a group with them and answered any question they had all the while taking them through the T1 three player Ironfold instances. I had no reason to do those instances but chose them for a twofold purpose. To talk about healing while getting them some gear and barter tokens. I enjoyed the moment and think they left better knowing the variety their class has to offer.

Gandalf said something about the small things and selfless acts. Paying SSG a fee to play is something, but hardly makes the game what it is. The players do, and just maybe my time given to those two players will yield years of revenue.


I had a notion players went to the LS servers to avoid U23. That is something I find odd. Pay SSG to go back to old content to avoid the current contents grind. I'm not seeing the message getting across if U23 grind was bad by paying more money to avoid it. I honestly don't see SSG getting the message either.

[Happybudgy]

I will just leave this here from today's patch noted

The stat spread and item level of lootbox gear below level 50 has been improved.

Bolded and colored by me. Cause ya know, I was recently told that if people were paying for subs, they would not need to rely on gimmicks, and since this effects mostly the 2 legendary servers........ wait I thought they were paying money so why would they need gimmick boxes.... let alone have the gear in them adjusted / improved (which most likely means better than anything else in game)

4 out of 8 'dots' in tomorrow's patch notes are about the gimmick boxes...


I went back and found these, all from November 2, 2018. Writing on the wall. Bolding is mine.

You pretty much nailed it. The 'budget' for vitality on gear suddenly skyrockets at 40, for bizarre reasons lost in the mists of time. In order to smooth out the real vitality progression for players, I needed to actually reduce the vitality per 'point' on gear at that stage, so this is intentional.

But you're also right that it's going to be slightly uneven and awkward. The real answer is to ultimately rework the older gear to look a lot more like gear in the later game, but the scope of that task is not currently something we can tackle, so this is the compromise solution for now.

Edit: Oh, yes, the other stats jump too, but vitality has the most dramatic effect on the game because it is a linear stat and not a rating with reducing returns, so I chose to ignore the jumps in the others, at least for the time being.

-Vastin

The old awful angmar loot is one thing I'm looking at as we speak.

So yes, at the moment you'll still find a lot of that amusingly badly statted gear in the Angmar endgame - but hopefully we'll be able to patch it to something a bit more presentable before too many of you get there, and existing gear should auto-magically transform when we get it updated.

In the meantime, the standardized scaling loot you can get from scaling instances has been tweaked for the Angmar level band - it was a lot easier to fix because it is very standardized in its design.

-Vastin

We're attempting to tie a huge number (many thousands) of older progressions in the game into a core set of progressions that can manage them all. This tie in is being handled formulaically, and there was a major bug introduced to one of the core formula references a little while back that caused an number of these older progressions to go off kilter.

Ultimately we need to actually GET RID OF most of these thousands of old value sets, because they are what make it nearly impossible to maintain and update the game systems and they are completely unnecessary, but in the meantime the shift to at least make them manageable is proving to be a steep climb.

Statistically, most of our early game has been trivial for years now, as none of our old content even remotely kept up with the skill and trait power creep that inevitably defines MMO development - it was simply impossible to re-balance the early game to react to changes that rolled backwards through the game - so I'm hoping another week or two of broken-ness won't be too painful. <sigh>

-Vastin

[maartena]

@maartena
And what is your advice on all of it, do please tell me. To stroll onto LS and forget about everything else until I’m actually there again?

No. Everyone should have their own way of playing the game, there are many servers to choose from only two are Legendary. My advice is more based about the SUCCESS of the Legendary servers, and that is: Stop whining about it if you aren't even willing to try it for yourself.

Not everyone plays the same way as others. Some people like the old content. Some people like the way these Legendary servers are setup. Unfortunately, there seem to be a number of people in this thread that seem to WANT these servers to fail, or they somehow feel threatened by them. Others just see it as another way to rant at SSG, because they don't seem to have nothing better to do.

How people play the game is up to each and everyone for themselves. I'm not saying the Legendary server is better or worse than other servers, each have their own advantages. For me, the advantage of the legendary servers is not just in experiencing the old world content, but all the other things around it.... The community, the economy, the landscape population, all these things and many more. Regular servers have their own advantages, such as enjoying ALL content, at the cap level! All I am saying here, and have been saying for some time.... is that despite the topic saying the servers will fail, that the opposite seems to be true. We are a day shy of 4 weeks, and every time I check, the amount of people logged on are roughly double to sometimes even triple that of Arkenstone. Now I don't know whether Arkenstone is the most populated server, but it's the only other server I have characters on (besides a few overflow parked ones on Crickhollow because I did not have enough character slots to move all of the ones from the closing servers), so I haven't compared it to other servers.

What I am essentially saying is that the Legendary Servers have been a much greater success than any naysayer has been willing to admit, and if they slowly start to change to a amount of people that is about equal to regular servers (instead of the more than double we see now), I'd say it is a big success.

Finally, I will say this: If you are willing to engage on meaningful discussion about the Legendary Servers, whether negative or positive..... the FIRST thing you have to do is just experience it for a week or two (not just one hour or one night and draw conclusions), and share your thoughts. If you aren't willing to do that, there is really no reason to engage in further discussion about them. You can't say a certain brand of icecream sucks, if you aren't willing to taste it first.

And with that, I will leave this topic be. By now, we are really beating a dead horse..... And only time will tell whether it will continue to be as successful as it is now.

[peachykins]

I will just leave this here from today's patch noted



Bolded and colored by me. Cause ya know, I was recently told that if people were paying for subs, they would not need to rely on gimmicks, and since this effects mostly the 2 legendary servers........ wait I thought they were paying money so why would they need gimmick boxes.... let alone have the gear in them adjusted / improved (which most likely means better than anything else in game)

They also lowered the level required to open them from 30 down to 20.

[Happybudgy]

This is very well articulated. The sentiments expressed here I imagine describe very many people's thoughts.

Indeed

I had a notion players went to the LS servers to avoid U23. That is something I find odd. Pay SSG to go back to old content to avoid the current contents grind. I'm not seeing the message getting across if U23 grind was bad by paying more money to avoid it. I honestly don't see SSG getting the message either.

WAI - a dark kind of feedback loop of both negative reinforcement (of players) and positive reinforcement (of SSG).

[Mirhaen]

@kickman77 I had a bound anniversary key, as well as loads of mathom boxes, sitting in the bags of my lvl 31 captain, and few days ago I’ve decided to use it. They are just taking space and that cappy already had some mathom gear but two pieces could be improved. So first I’ve opened lootbox and in it was purple gloves with absolutely ridiculous stats. I recall +10 might, don’t remember the rest. Then I went through all mathom boxes (purple, teal and golden) only to find out that mathom gear was nerfed. Even current golden mathom piece of armor has worst stats than my old teal piece. So this effects us all, as cappy in question is on regular server. Also did anyone managed to pass mummaks in Throne any time lately?

@Sapienze hat off to you sir

@maartena I understood your opinion long ago and I am glad that you are having good time. I was hoping that you would try to understand my point, instead of copy/paste your opinion yet again. You yourself stated that you went to LS as you were fed up with the current state of the end game of late, yet somehow now decided to completely omit that fact and pretend that you don’t know what we speaking about. As long as that is the case, I do not see how can we continue this conversation in any productive and meaningful manner.

[kickman77]

4 out of 8 'dots' in tomorrow's patch notes are about the gimmick boxes...


I went back and found these, all from November 2, 2018. Writing on the wall. Bolding is mine.

All those are about the dropped gear, not the stuff in lootboxes. So they still ignore the dropped stuff, but can improve the lootbox stuff. Utterly amazing. Can not wait to see how this is defended

They also lowered the level required to open them from 30 down to 20.

Yeah... now they can bilk people earlier

Finally, I will say this: If you are willing to engage on meaningful discussion about the Legendary Servers, whether negative or positive..... the FIRST thing you have to do is just experience it for a week or two (not just one hour or one night and draw conclusions), and share your thoughts. If you aren't willing to do that, there is really no reason to engage in further discussion about them. You can't say a certain brand of icecream sucks, if you aren't willing to taste it first.

And with that, I will leave this topic be. By now, we are really beating a dead horse..... And only time will tell whether it will continue to be as successful as it is now.

Lol, who made you queen of the forums? People can have an opinion about the LS because the LS IS THE LIVE SERVER WITH A LEVEL CAP Nothing more nothing less. Sure, it has a tighter community right now, but as soon as levels start spreading out, that will decrease as well. It blows my mind the hurdles you leap through to defend the server whilst continuously ignoring every valid post about why people do not agree with it, and as usual have a long wall of text that basically has you speaking in circles.

But gotta love it... people can not have opinions now. That is unless they are picking up the crumbs for SSG and praising everything

[kickman77]

@kickman77 I had a bound anniversary key, as well as loads of mathom boxes, sitting in the bags of my lvl 31 captain, and few days ago I’ve decided to use it. They are just taking space and that cappy already had some mathom gear but two pieces could be improved. So first I’ve opened lootbox and in it was purple gloves with absolutely ridiculous stats. I recall +10 might, don’t remember the rest. Then I went through all mathom boxes (purple, teal and golden) only to find out that mathom gear was nerfed. Even current golden mathom piece of armor has worst stats than my old teal piece. So this effects us all, as cappy in question is on regular server. Also did anyone managed to pass mummaks in Throne any time lately?

@Sapienze hat off to you sir

@maartena I understood your opinion long ago and I am glad that you are having good time. I was hoping that you would try to understand my point, instead of copy/paste your opinion yet again. You yourself stated that you went to LS as you were fed up with the current state of the end game of late, yet somehow now decided to completely omit that fact and pretend that you don’t know what we speaking about. As long as that is the case, I do not see how can we continue this conversation in any productive and meaningful manner.

Yes it does, I never said it did not, but it effects more on the LS who are playing at those levels. Also see my above post how they ignored the dropped gear they said they were going top fix... to fix lootbox gear.

[Happybudgy]

All those are about the dropped gear, not the stuff in lootboxes. So they still ignore the dropped stuff, but can improve the lootbox stuff. Utterly amazing. Can not wait to see how this is defended

They changed/deleted dropped armour so that it becomes harder to gear ... to have people open more lootboxes. It's impoverishing the earliest zones of the game, to make lootbox gear more attractive.

New levels added to those old raids... does that require lootbox gear to complete, when landscape drops have been changed, when hobbit gifts give more purple armour than teal, and when both kinds have also had their stats lowered?

[Aleziana]

I leave this here xD

[cipher_nemo]

I leave this here xD

[video=youtube;_kSk5dL8afI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kSk5dL8afI[/video]

That's exactly why I came back and why I subbed as VIP to play on the Legendary server. And it's awesome. Even if LOTRO has issues at end-game, I can still enjoy it all the way up until end-game. Then I'll see what happens at that point with my enjoyment of LOTRO at that point.

So what's wrong with that? SSG gets more income from people like me to continue working on LOTRO and continue to offer it for everyone else who plays. Sure it's a money grab, no argument from me. Sure there are bugs here that have been around since launch. Sure balance sucks compared to a number of other games. But it's still fun, still nostalgia that I'm reliving, and still worth my time. All of those end-game vets preaching doom & gloom about LOTRO might be justified, but it doesn't change the fact that others are still enjoying the nostalgia revisit and SSG is making money (have you seen how heavily populated Anor is right now?).

Give us returning players until 2020 and perhaps then we can join you in the bitter end-game vet moaning party.