Beorning Revamp

[Fraushgrish2]

Internally I'm starting out by trying to tie transformation into the most basic attack for each form (slash/thrash). If that works out in a technically clean manner I may extend it to cover several of their skills. It remains to be seen whether that's the case.

-Vastin

Hey vastin, just a friendly reminder that during the U23 beta you saw that outgoing healing (the stat and essences) were terrible and said a fix was coming. That fix never came but it would be great if you could do that now so that bears won’t need will and tactical mastery.

[Malruor]

Vastin,
are you thinking about some kind of compensation for the BEO players? I am talking about imbue replacement scrolls mainly. Thanks to the long-standing bad state of this class, players have been forced to adapt their legendary weapons an LIs to make them useful. If there will be new skills/legacies or you will repair skills which were bugged and useless, players will be forced to change their legendaries once again. The current state about legendary weapons and LIs are extremely unfriendly and expensive. We are not burglars. We are not thieves ;-)

[ENDrain]

Certainly need blocking in yellow trait at least.
And shields, maybe. All tanks have shields.
Agility-based tanking is a sound idea. In this case, shields might not be necessary.
Heavy armour is noncense lore-wise, don't do that.
When empowering dps for group, don't make beorning too OP in solo!

About shape-shifting.
On one hand, tying transformation with damage skills is good for combat flow. On the other hand, a dedicated transformation button is viable for "the beorning" feel of the class. It has nothing to do with the gameplay, the effect is purely cosmetic, psychological.

What I'm trying to say is - while trying to avoid transformation slowing down the combat flow, try not to lose the feel of a shape-shifter class, where you shift shapes and it matters.

Ideally, man and bear shapes should be balanced. It shouldn't be always "start man, gather wrath, turn into bear". This is not good for the shape-shifter feel, too. If man-form is inferior to bear-form, than players only want to assume bear-form ASAP and don't want to quite "shift" between them. I think both shapes should have equal opportunities at gathering wrath, but then, say, man-form has better tatcial mastery and mitigation, while bear-form surpasses in physical.

[ENDrain]

SSG must do something against this problem, because people will be extremly upset, when they hit 50 on the legendary server and find out, that they are the only class without armour set. A lot of returning players want to play the "new" class on legandary and they don't know this. And if they find out on lvl 50, they will rant on the forums and maybe stop playing and leave the server. SSG must keep the returners for gaining VIP income.

I wasn't clear enough. They do have armour sets at different instances' vendors. When I'm saying "decicated", I mean - with original, standing out appearance. Currently, every and all Beorning armour sets duplicate appearance of Warden's.

[Otik]

I wasn't clear enough. They do have armour sets at different instances' vendors. When I'm saying "decicated", I mean - with original, standing out appearance. Currently, every and all Beorning armour sets duplicate appearance of Warden's.

we need something that improves upon the starting character armor for Beorning's but improves upon the look tied to the class.

[Timberfox]

1) It is so hard to stay in bear form long enough to have any fun, that I rarely even bother skin-changing. It is so frustrating to FINALLY get my Wrath up to 100% then cut loose for just a couple of attacks and have to start over again. I want to have fun! I am sick of all the book keeping, watching my Wrath bar and hoping I can get something done before it empties again. Could it be possible that the amount of Wrath expended (passively and actively) declines as one's level increases? A young bearling would naturally have difficulty maintaining his/her bearform, since they are young and lacking in experience. But, an older, more experienced and well travelled Beorning should have no difficulty switching to bear form from a standing start and maintaining it (like you show us in the Beorning introduction. Everyone can switch to bear form before combat even begins, but not the character because he is the newb). Perhaps this could be integrated as level based passive skills?

2) Blue Tree: Could you possibly think of a more clunky, pain in the *** mechanic than the "Counter/Counter Attack" mechanic? What a pain! I want to look at the fight, not my action bar to see if the stupid "Counter" button is ready for me to click again. Why not just make the "Counter Attack" proc based on something...like a dodge or a parry, or whatever. Just stop making me chase the little blue button! Jeez! Also, I happen to LIKE the "Recuperate" ability, please keep that.

3) Red Tree: DO NOT listen to any Bear haters who say to remove Hearten from Red Tree!

4) Yellow Tree: Why do I have to choose between fast "after combat" rezzes, or "in combat" rezzing that puts me out of action for 3 MINUTES??? What good is this to a raid group? That is literally saying, "Oh, look! I learned a new skill, now I am less useful than I was before!"

I apologize if I seem a bit...gruff, but I really love the game, and I really, Really, R-E-A-L-L-Y love my Bear. He's a 'lil broke atm, but I'm hoping you can fix him up good! (And, anyone who wants to take away any of my Bear's healing abilities is an anti-Tolkien, Warcraft Sympathizer!!)

[Forefather]

Hey Folks, Vastin here.

Now that the main game balance is settling down a bit and we're back into nip & tuck on that side, I can get to work on Beornings properly.

Obviously the class is going to get a broad normalization pass, which shouldn't affect it too significantly except to make it easier to balance and modify. That work is already mostly done and in my back pocket at this point.

As for what I'm going to change about the class - the answer is, probably not a huge amount. Beornings are fairly effective statistically speaking. Their DPS tends to be solid, if not monumental, their survivability is pretty good, and they can serve in groups as fairly effective members. They don't generally stand out of the crowd in any one way, but being something of a hybrid class that's sort of to be expected.

So my main focus is going to be QoL improvements - making the class play more smoothly, fixing up outdated or lame skills, and trying to make them generally more fun to play. For some value of the word 'fun'.

If anyone would like to point out any particularly glaring statistical issues or QoL problems that are harder to notice, like bad animation hitches or the like, feel free to chime in.

-Vastin

All I ask for is a new seperate in-combat rez skill, a few more heals to fill in rotation gaps + heal related buffs (perhaps added to melee skills, such as a small, long duration aoe hot from biting edge) for a more consistent experience in yellow line. As for red line, I would like to see more fast snappy skills like the guard has (perhaps more of an aoe focus too?), make the interrupt skill instant as animation delays take a good while to fire off. I believe that the redline dps should be similar to a guard's redline to really help along with some solo/landscape content.

As for blue line, I would like to see more tanking viability such as a higher passive armour/crit defence buff or something like that!

[CharlesRollinsWare]

Hey vastin! Here are a few suggestions from an awesome forum poster on some things. https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...ng-Trait-Trees
-snipped-

Bears are not very good healers, so no group spot there (maybe rarely if someones desperate)
Bears are not good at dps so no group spot there
And bears are really bad at tanking again no group spots there.

-snipped-

1. I cannot disagree more with the first point. My Beorning was never desired in any instance/raid until Abyss - where she became instrumental in healing the the "good side" of the second boss. And whenever I am solo or in a small group dying is a non-issue. The caveat to this is regardless of traitline, i always am deep in yellow line and whenever I am grouped I am traited yellow with blue or red sidelines. Without heavily traiting in yellow bear form takes too much damage to keep up with.

2. 100% Agree - Bear DPS is non-extant

3. 100% Agree (though I admit, the only "tank" class I ever played is my cappy, and I was a healing cappy in any raid - she is the only one of my serious characters that I did not take through Mordor - mostly because my kin had a surplus of excellent cappies) Regardless, Bear aggro generation cannot keep up with current DPS classes at all - and they need tons of healing which they can provide but that doesn't hold aggro when you are doing it.

All that said, i thoroughly enjoy my bear as is. That said, the word is out that neither of my two main raiders at 115 - my burg and bear - look to make the cut for any current T2/T3 instance available in the new area - which strikes of poor instance design.

Luin

[Taldeen]

1. I cannot disagree more with the first point. My Beorning was never desired in any instance/raid until Abyss - where she became instrumental in healing the the "good side" of the second boss. And whenever I am solo or in a small group dying is a non-issue. The caveat to this is regardless of traitline, i always am deep in yellow line and whenever I am grouped I am traited yellow with blue or red sidelines. Without heavily traiting in yellow bear form takes too much damage to keep up with.

2. 100% Agree - Bear DPS is non-extant

3. 100% Agree (though I admit, the only "tank" class I ever played is my cappy, and I was a healing cappy in any raid - she is the only one of my serious characters that I did not take through Mordor - mostly because my kin had a surplus of excellent cappies) Regardless, Bear aggro generation cannot keep up with current DPS classes at all - and they need tons of healing which they can provide but that doesn't hold aggro when you are doing it.

All that said, i thoroughly enjoy my bear as is. That said, the word is out that neither of my two main raiders at 115 - my burg and bear - look to make the cut for any current T2/T3 instance available in the new area - which strikes of poor instance design.

Luin

1. I think beorning heal is in the right ballpark. The main reason why people dont use beornings in raids/groups is because of the unreliable rezz and the higher skillcap as a healer.
2. Beo dps is non existent, however i dont want to see a beo dpsing in a raid setup, So it should be raised, but it should not be comparable with other pure dps classes. I see a beo as a tank/healer in a raid, and 2 viable raidspecs is more then other classes have.
3. Beo tanking is slaking slighly. However, if you have problems with you aggro, i suggest using your force taunts more efficiently. Lotro tanking works by force taunts (which is an issue in general, but I think if other tanks rely on force taunt for the time being, the beo should too. otherwise beo tanks could easliy get overpowered.)

[laughatdo0m]

Half the people commenting in this thread are asking for cosmetic changes; but Vastin is working strictly on how abilities/gear works.

Hey vastin, just a friendly reminder that during the U23 beta you saw that outgoing healing (the stat and essences) were terrible and said a fix was coming. That fix never came but it would be great if you could do that now so that bears won’t need will and tactical mastery.

This used to actually mitigated somewhat by the fact that Beornings get tactical mastery from might; but now that mainstats aren't useful for getting this, I would just suggest Vastin plug Physical Mastery (instead of Tactical Mastery) into the equation for Beorning healing. As it stands right now, I agree with Fraushgrish2 (and a few others that commented here already)- too difficult to get Tactical Mastery / Outgoing Healing as a might based class. This might also be a good fix for Captain heals; since their blue line is somewhat lacking right now as well.

[ShellWrath]

Hey Vastin! I LOVE my bear and have played it since the Beorning release and it became my main after I found how much I love to play the class. I've put a lot of thought and work into my character and enjoy being an "alright" healer. I love PVP and am always happy to heal freeps - but it's also a little disappointing to continually hear, "Well, you're pretty good with heals but we need an ACTUAL healer" ... The suggestions have been good so far on this thread and I agree that with the bear being not-so great at anything (besides healing that is accepted when stronger healers are not avail) that I do feel left out of groups in various aspects.

My comments on suggestions so far:
- YES, please fix the rez bug. It is so frustrating to be able/accepted to get into certain groups and then someone else die and I'm the one who is supposed to rez them and it says, "Invalid Target" and we fail at what we are attempting to do because I can't get my rez off. Sometimes I can target something else then try again and it works but 99% of the time it never does.
- I agree it would be neat to have a bow skill(s) to go with the bow! I cannot tell you how happy I was when bears got a rez and a bow!
- Higher DPS would be really nice and bleeds in some way. Have always just felt meh dps wise but I try to get it as high as I can, even as an attempted healer.
- Will we have to buy all new gear again If you change it? It's already a grind to get the 120 gear -would I have to re-do it all over again?
- The comments made already about tank build have been good- should be able to block and right now tank bear is all out of whack.
- My bear heals are fairly good but still a bit intimidated in thinking I would be good enough of a healer for T2/T3 current 3 or 6 man's and want to be able to be a class someone wants often in those groups. I try to bring the best effort with healing but I have to be fast to keep up and yes, the animations and skills need to be sped up.

Estimated release for these changes? Thanks so much!

[Vastin]

Think I'm going to split out that combat rez as a separate skill. Lame that it nukes the cooldown of your basic rez, which just makes post-battle cleanup annoying.

Also trying to figure out why the rez is buggy - there are a number of things I can tweak to help make it more reliable, but if anyone has any failure messages from when it screws up that would be helpful, as I don't have a good repro case for that one.

-Vastin

[laughatdo0m]

Think I'm going to split out that combat rez as a separate skill. Lame that it nukes the cooldown of your basic rez, which just makes post-battle cleanup annoying.

Also trying to figure out why the rez is buggy - there are a number of things I can tweak to help make it more reliable, but if anyone has any failure messages from when it screws up that would be helpful, as I don't have a good repro case for that one.

-Vastin

The message is "Invalid Target". It only applies DURING combat. As soon as combat ends you would be able to rez that target. People have speculated it has something to do with target forwarding, but I've never successfully nailed anything down testing that theory.

[Fraushgrish2]

Think I'm going to split out that combat rez as a separate skill. Lame that it nukes the cooldown of your basic rez, which just makes post-battle cleanup annoying.

Also trying to figure out why the rez is buggy - there are a number of things I can tweak to help make it more reliable, but if anyone has any failure messages from when it screws up that would be helpful, as I don't have a good repro case for that one.

-Vastin

Makes sure to remove the induction as well. In the best of battle no one has time to stop for almost 3 seconds and Rez. Another bug with the Rez is that it can also apply a jump Rez.
A jump Rez is when someone is rezing and when their induction goes off they jump in the air. This makes their Rez go on CD but nullifies it’s effect and leads to the person who was rezed respawning at the original Rez point. ( captains also deal with this bug). This bug was especially annoying in boss 3 of abyss where the boss bumps you around and coins bump you around.

[laughatdo0m]

Think I'm going to split out that combat rez as a separate skill. Lame that it nukes the cooldown of your basic rez, which just makes post-battle cleanup annoying.

Also trying to figure out why the rez is buggy - there are a number of things I can tweak to help make it more reliable, but if anyone has any failure messages from when it screws up that would be helpful, as I don't have a good repro case for that one.

-Vastin

It should be worth noting that the rez bug is *NOT* an uncommon issue. It seems to happen more than 50% of the time someone dies in instances. In some runs of a boss, multiple people will die and you will only be able to rez one of them, while the rest give that "INVALID TARGET" alert.

[Sarthien90]

I have never posted here, but as a player of a bear the planned revamp gives reason to do so, I think.
I can only make suggestions about the YELLOW line of beornings, as I have never tried the other lines but have been playing this class since it was released in 2014.

Most important: Fix the bugs!
- Bear Up is not working for years now.
Just make the rez the same as other classes have: Two skills, one for in-combat, one for out of combat. Maybe that solves the problem of the error ‘invalid target’ or ‘target must not be in combat’ when trying to use Bear Up in combat. Can’t count how many times a group, especially in three-man-groups when no other class has a rez, was enraged because we lost a fight because the bear-rez bugged.
- Mark of Grimbeorn not working properly
When accidently making that mark on yourself you have to relog most of the time to make it work properly again. Otherwise the buff with +incoming heal on your target of the mark won’t show up


Once those basics are done I suggest the following:
- The cooldown (even short) for Skin-change and Mark of Grimbeorn makes the class feel clumsy and not able to react quickly when an emergency occurs. Either remove (or at least lower it further to 2-3 seconds) cooldown or give us an emergency skill you can use in both forms, man and bear. Maybe extend the bubble of shake free (it already is for the beorning healer itself and his target of Mark of Grimbeorn) to a percentage based bubble for let’s say 20% of max. morale or so? Then it would be a weaker version of the bubble a RK healer has.
Alternative: Granting a skill that gives your target -15% incoming damage for 10 seconds to have time taking a breath when big damage comes in
- The HoT of Hearten has to be stronger. Maybe approximately 40-50%

In my opinion this would be enough to make the beorning a good healer, especially when people are getting used to have one and can react of that specific ‘spike healing style’, what I would call it.

[laughatdo0m]

- The cooldown (even short) for Skin-change and Mark of Grimbeorn makes the class feel clumsy and not able to react quickly when an emergency occurs. Either remove (or at least lower it further to 2-3 seconds) cooldown or give us an emergency skill you can use in both forms, man and bear. Maybe extend the bubble of shake free (it already is for the beorning healer itself and his target of Mark of Grimbeorn) to a percentage based bubble for let’s say 20% of max. morale or so? Then it would be a weaker version of the bubble a RK healer has.
Alternative: Granting a skill that gives your target -15% incoming damage for 10 seconds to have time taking a breath when big damage comes in

I completely forgot about that bubble because I have never once bothered to trait it. It grants what, a 2k morale shield on yourself and your marked target when you use it? I would definitely improve this and all bubbles in game to be more in lines of the self-bubbles Champions get (max % morale) - thus they can easily be scaled into the future. Minstrels suffer from having really bad bubbles too, but that is okay for them because they are better healers in just about every other aspect....

[Aelbryht]

Internally I'm starting out by trying to tie transformation into the most basic attack for each form (slash/thrash). If that works out in a technically clean manner I may extend it to cover several of their skills. It remains to be seen whether that's the case.

-Vastin

Thanks, it's good to know that you possibly can tie in the transformations like that! Just having those two key skills triggering it would already be an improvement since it means at least something of value has happened while you're waiting on the animation completing.

Certainly need blocking in yellow trait at least.
And shields, maybe. All tanks have shields.
Agility-based tanking is a sound idea. In this case, shields might not be necessary.
Heavy armour is noncense lore-wise, don't do that.
When empowering dps for group, don't make beorning too OP in solo!

About shape-shifting.
On one hand, tying transformation with damage skills is good for combat flow. On the other hand, a dedicated transformation button is viable for "the beorning" feel of the class. It has nothing to do with the gameplay, the effect is purely cosmetic, psychological.

What I'm trying to say is - while trying to avoid transformation slowing down the combat flow, try not to lose the feel of a shape-shifter class, where you shift shapes and it matters.

Ideally, man and bear shapes should be balanced. It shouldn't be always "start man, gather wrath, turn into bear". This is not good for the shape-shifter feel, too. If man-form is inferior to bear-form, than players only want to assume bear-form ASAP and don't want to quite "shift" between them. I think both shapes should have equal opportunities at gathering wrath, but then, say, man-form has better tatcial mastery and mitigation, while bear-form surpasses in physical.

I see what you mean about the cosmetic/psychological element of having a bear form skill but will we not retain something along those lines if we're given the ability to travel in bear form instead of using normal mounts?

[Evenolan]

I don’t mean to keep beating the same drum but can we please get some more legacy options for all three lines? After looking again we have 5 less legacies per item. We don’t have bleed, crit magnitude, or anything affecting thrash damage. These are just some suggestions but could be easy fixes to damage scaling problems.

[Evenolan]

I don’t mean to keep beating the same drum but can we please get some more legacy options for all three lines? After looking again we have 5 less legacies per item. We don’t have bleed, crit magnitude, or anything affecting thrash damage. These are just some suggestions but could be easy fixes to damage scaling problems.

Actually I was wrong we have 8 less per ITEM!

[Timberfox]

I kind of like the bow as it is. I'm afraid that if you try to "fix" it, you will add a cooldown, or make it as useless as a Champion's bow. As it is, my bow fires quickly, accurately and repeatedly. I'd love to use a crossbow just because i think they look cool, but other than that...I'd like you to leave the bow alone. I saw what happened to Barrage for the Hunters and I don't want that kind of help.

[ENDrain]

A jump Rez is when someone is rezing and when their induction goes off they jump in the air. This makes their Rez go on CD but nullifies it’s effect and leads to the person who was rezed respawning at the original Rez point. ( captains also deal with this bug)

Couldn't agree more!

Also, I'm fairly sure that sometimes captains suffer the Invalid Target error with their combat rez, too. It can POSSIBLY have something to do with the target being in a different raid group. Just a blind guess tho.

[Daniyel]

Think I'm going to split out that combat rez as a separate skill. Lame that it nukes the cooldown of your basic rez, which just makes post-battle cleanup annoying.

Also trying to figure out why the rez is buggy - there are a number of things I can tweak to help make it more reliable, but if anyone has any failure messages from when it screws up that would be helpful, as I don't have a good repro case for that one.

-Vastin

The message is "Invalid Target". It only applies DURING combat. As soon as combat ends you would be able to rez that target. People have speculated it has something to do with target forwarding, but I've never successfully nailed anything down testing that theory.

Vastin, i hope this will help you to reproduce the issue.

It seems to be dependent on the target's selection.
Assume both player A and Player B are in the same instance, fellowship, or raid.
If player A is the beorning, and player B is the target, the following sequences apply:

scenario 1:
player B clicks the ground and makes sure to not select any object or target.
Player A then attempts Rez and it works (most of the time, but sometimes doesn't work anyway, like in the case that player B deslected the target after the beorning cast the rez skill but before the animation/induction completed.)

Scenario 2:
Player B is selecting an NPC, or another player, or an Object
Player A tries to rez and receives "Invalid Target" - this is reproducible and occurs almost all the time in this order of events. I've never seen it work given that Player B is selecting an NPC, or another player, or an Object

[YvainBlakhart]

My humble QoL suggestions:


Give Mark of Beorn/Grimbeorn the same range as Captain marks (40M) .
Don't require the beorning to be facing the Mark of Grimbeorn target.
Don't have the Mark of Beorn aggro the target. It would be nice to set up a combat a little.
Give Beornings a "Let Fly" skill with the bow.
Let "Ferocious Roar" be an any form skill
"Bracing Roar" needs a much lower CD like maybe 3 minutes.


Yes to more skills that auto formchange to Bear, including at least one their bear heals.

[Timberfox]

I have often wondered about trait tree selections like the extra "Fate" in Yellow tree, and "Vitality" in Blue tree. I have seen similar choices in other classes. But why use specific numbers? We have level creep in this game like many other games. The bonuses given by these choices pales in comparison to the stats you can get on gear. Many people suggest skipping them since the bonuses they give are so insignificant. Well, that is just a waste. Why not use a percentage system, so the ability is immune to level creep? It seems to me it would be easier to make adjustments for potential balance issues.