Warden Bug: Dance of War/Conviction

[Taldeen]

I i'm not sure when it changed, but i think it since the warden rework.
Warden chaining does not work with Maddening Strike, Dance of War, Conviction.
I think this is a pretty serious bug, since it strikes warden rotations at the heart.

Btw. i think warden gambit chaining should be buffed. Warden should benefit way more from chaining (standart values could be nerfed in turn). Would make warden quite a lot more interesting.
And please seperate our AoE force taunt from mitigations (Maybe add them to chaining skills). And give us an active panic skill.

[Murtanion]

I i'm not sure when it changed, but i think it since the warden rework.
Warden chaining does not work with Maddening Strike, Dance of War, Conviction.
I think this is a pretty serious bug, since it strikes warden rotations at the heart.

Btw. i think warden gambit chaining should be buffed. Warden should benefit way more from chaining (standart values could be nerfed in turn). Would make warden quite a lot more interesting.
And please seperate our AoE force taunt from mitigations (Maybe add them to chaining skills). And give us an active panic skill.

Frankly I never understood why they didn't re-implement Defiant Challenge as it originally was. Fist-Spear-Fist-Spear-Fist is currently unused, and while it doesn't follow the spear of virtue line it would be an easy way to swap it back into the rotation. SSG could also tie the AoE taunt, or the mitigations to the half baked "Fellowship Protector" from blue line.

I agree that Chaining really needs to be looked at. Historically it swings from useless to moderately useful, mostly erring on the side of underperforming.

[Gandolf_TheOld]

I i'm not sure when it changed, but i think it since the warden rework.
Warden chaining does not work with Maddening Strike, Dance of War, Conviction.
I think this is a pretty serious bug, since it strikes warden rotations at the heart.

Btw. i think warden gambit chaining should be buffed. Warden should benefit way more from chaining (standart values could be nerfed in turn). Would make warden quite a lot more interesting.
And please seperate our AoE force taunt from mitigations (Maybe add them to chaining skills). And give us an active panic skill.

It is
23 Impressive Flourish
232 Maddening Strike
2323 Dance of War OR 23232 Conviction as finisher

[swarmofseals]

I agree that Chaining really needs to be looked at. Historically it swings from useless to moderately useful, mostly erring on the side of underperforming.

Yikes, I'm wondering now if I'm playing Warden inefficiently. I haven't really gotten into group content yet but I've done plenty of moderately challenging solo stuff. My spec is Blue/red (I understand that this may be suboptimal now but I still do a lot of AOE farming).

When AOEing groups of monsters I usually do 32->323->32323. Normal monsters often die to 323 but signatures will sometimes last to 32323. If it's a group of elites I will often tack on 3232 immediately after 32323, or if that isn't likely to do it on its own I'll go back to 32->323->3232.

For single target I generally rotate between 123->1231->12312 and 313, 3131 while keeping up the two javelin damage buffs and tossing in 21->212->21212 or 12131 as needed.

Should I not be bothering to chain like this? If not, what does a more optimized rotation look like?

[spelunker]

I i'm not sure when it changed, but i think it since the warden rework.
Warden chaining does not work with Maddening Strike, Dance of War, Conviction.
I think this is a pretty serious bug, since it strikes warden rotations at the heart.

Btw. i think warden gambit chaining should be buffed. Warden should benefit way more from chaining (standart values could be nerfed in turn). Would make warden quite a lot more interesting.
And please seperate our AoE force taunt from mitigations (Maybe add them to chaining skills). And give us an active panic skill.

It is bugged, but only the critical defense and mitigation bonuses. The bonus to conviction healing is working just fine. My warden currently isn't level capped, but unless there is a dramatic shift in the stat values of the chain bonuses at 120, this is the opposite of a serious bug. On my warden (lvl 114 in quest gear) the difference between this bonus applying and not is less than 1% critical defense, and less than 0.25% mitigations. Unless the curve of those values change, those numbers that are nearly useless on my warden would be even more useless on a geared warden.

Gambit chaining is trash. It forces you into very tight, specific rotations, with very little leeway on how you can go about building buffs, which is quite counter to the way the warden was originally designed and played up until trait trees (with the exception of the spear line chains being introduced during RoI). There are some very good ways to implement rewarding a warden for keeping up a complex 'rotation' that takes advantage of the breadth of warden gambit/buff choices. The rigid chaining system that requires you to build them in specific order removes a lot of the versatility of how the class used to be optimally operated compared to now. Suggestions for fixing the current system are outside the scope of this thread, but suffice to say (from my perspective), I'd rather they fixed the chaining system before making to bonuses so good they couldn't be passed up.

Frankly I never understood why they didn't re-implement Defiant Challenge as it originally was. Fist-Spear-Fist-Spear-Fist is currently unused, and while it doesn't follow the spear of virtue line it would be an easy way to swap it back into the rotation. SSG could also tie the AoE taunt, or the mitigations to the half baked "Fellowship Protector" from blue line.

Defiant Challenge as it originally was is unworkable in the current aggro system, and quite frankly there was essentially no time in the past the original gambit was useful to begin with. Yes I know a 5-length gambit, especially one that can only use 2 different masteries to build rather than 4 (I'm ignoring using a mastery to fill just the 5th builder here), makes it time consuming and would require losing a number of rotational buffs to take advantage of, but it would be so much more powerful a threat tool than any other class has, it really would be inappropriate.

...

It is indeed bugged.

Yikes, I'm wondering now if I'm playing Warden inefficiently. I haven't really gotten into group content yet but I've done plenty of moderately challenging solo stuff. My spec is Blue/red (I understand that this may be suboptimal now but I still do a lot of AOE farming).

When AOEing groups of monsters I usually do 32->323->32323. Normal monsters often die to 323 but signatures will sometimes last to 32323. If it's a group of elites I will often tack on 3232 immediately after 32323, or if that isn't likely to do it on its own I'll go back to 32->323->3232.

For single target I generally rotate between 123->1231->12312 and 313, 3131 while keeping up the two javelin damage buffs and tossing in 21->212->21212 or 12131 as needed.

Should I not be bothering to chain like this? If not, what does a more optimized rotation look like?

In those AoE situations, are you feeling like you need a small bpe bonus? I doubt it, and that is the only benefit to going through the them in order. The desolation miss chance isn't significant enough to write home about either. AoE pulls will depend a lot on their positioning. If they are really spread out, leading with Brink of Victory while they're spread out and SoD/Desolation wouldn't hit everyone may be worth it. Otherwise, lead off with Desolation or Surety of Death, then do the other, then do Brink, if there is still a sizeable group with a solid amount of health, you could do War-Cry and Goad before moving into single target skills or heals (do goad into Unerring, then battle mem unerring on a second target), but most landscape situations those first 2 or 3 gambits will have killed non-elites and you're better off going to single target skills sooner.

For the single target rotation, the bonus damage of going in order is vastly outstripped by the benefits to getting your hardest hitting bleeds up first, as those bleeds do way more damage than the chain bonus, any of those skill's upfront damage, and even the combination of those skills upfront damage and the bonus, compared to the bleed damage. Those chain damage bonuses are also dealt in common damage, making them weaker than the bleeds, upfront damage, and damage on expiration bonuses. In a long, sustained single target fight, the 'free' bonus damage from those chains would win out during your third time through a 21s damage rotation (so the chains would be barely worth using in a <50s fight). Also keep in mind that the upfront damage on fist gambits is superior to the spear gambits, which plays a role in what is best when (and is dumb from a class historical perspective).

[Taldeen]

It is bugged, but only the critical defense and mitigation bonuses. The bonus to conviction healing is working just fine. My warden currently isn't level capped, but unless there is a dramatic shift in the stat values of the chain bonuses at 120, this is the opposite of a serious bug. On my warden (lvl 114 in quest gear) the difference between this bonus applying and not is less than 1% critical defense, and less than 0.25% mitigations. Unless the curve of those values change, those numbers that are nearly useless on my warden would be even more useless on a geared warden.

Gambit chaining is trash. It forces you into very tight, specific rotations, with very little leeway on how you can go about building buffs, which is quite counter to the way the warden was originally designed and played up until trait trees (with the exception of the spear line chains being introduced during RoI). There are some very good ways to implement rewarding a warden for keeping up a complex 'rotation' that takes advantage of the breadth of warden gambit/buff choices. The rigid chaining system that requires you to build them in specific order removes a lot of the versatility of how the class used to be optimally operated compared to now. Suggestions for fixing the current system are outside the scope of this thread, but suffice to say (from my perspective), I'd rather they fixed the chaining system before making to bonuses so good they couldn't be passed up.

I consider it a serious bug, since it changes how to play a warden at its core. The bonuses are very small and should be buffed in my opinion in general.
I think gambit chaining is one of the core aspects of the warden and can make rotations way more interesting. It requires you to think ahead. Do you have enough time to finish the chain? Can you rotate 1-2 gambits in if something else is needed?
The bonuses were never so substantial that they "require" you to chain, but rather encourage to get an edge in a fight. Just spamming the always the 4/5 gambits first is a boring rotation in my opinion. It should always be a tradeoff between good bonuses at the start or low bonus at the start but better bonuses at the end.