One class will never get to do t2 content

[Reillan]

For years, the Burg has been in a really bad situation. Mezzing is no longer considered a necessity in group content, and when it is, the LM is still the class groups prefer to take because they have aoe and group buffs. The burg is really only useful on main bosses for raid content, which is hard to get into when you can't get t2 content runs to save your life.

Why can't you get t2 content runs?

Because everyone wants either AOE or Ranged damage. Single-target melee damage is useless against trash, and single-target ranged damage from hunters and RKs easily outpaces burg damage.

Burg needs serious dev attention. I see devs finally ready to help the Beorning class - which needs it, don't get me wrong - but after you've helped them out, do you think you could give us some love?

My #1 recommendation to fix burgs is simple: Make yellow-line a true AOE line. Trickster seems like it should do that, because the way it's worded indicates that trick skills should become aoe permanently as long as you stay in combat. It doesn't work that way, though - only the first trick skill is aoe, and that clears the buff. If it simply worked as written, we'd be able to build decent aoe dps (not great - we wouldn't be champs - but we'd simultaneously be debuffing everything in the area.

Or maybe part of reaching the top of the yellow tree should be that they simply all become aoe.

My #2 recommendation would be to add damage to Dust in the Eyes while in this mode, so that we can be rotating through all 4 tricks and keep up dps.

[Drizzels]

While i agree that a burg is maybe not the best viable Options for 3-6 kann instances it is still in a good spot.
In Terms of st dps it does more then a red champ and ist dps support is on Level with lm/red capt while doing more dps while doing that.

On my burg i had no problem finding grps for t2 and even did the instances on t3.
Etherfang on T3 is a pain tho since ist 100% melee unfriendly

[QueenArleth]

Burglars are still going to be useful when the raid drops, just as it was in Abyss right in the midst of the class change updates.

I see burglars filling a support role in Thikil-Gundu as well. Unfortunately Thrumfall is not melee-friendly so Burglars are left out there.

[Reillan]

problem is getting into the raid when you can't get gear drops, heh

[Goonbag]

Burglars are still going to be useful when the raid drops, just as it was in Abyss right in the midst of the class change updates.

I see burglars filling a support role in Thikil-Gundu as well. Unfortunately Thrumfall is not melee-friendly so Burglars are left out there.

I spared a thought for burgs the other day whilst doing Thikil Gundu for over 2 maybe 3 hrs on the near impossible 2nd boss in T2. We went through pretty much every class combo in there until finally getting a smart burg who could debuff fror. We still didnt finish, but got closest because of her.

But unfortunately if not for this overly specific task, i dont see burgs being needed. I think that may hzve honestly been the first burg i saw in end game content since u23. I really feel for the burgs out there, it hzs the potential to be a really interesting class.

[Joetzim]

Except wo plays burgs? The most skilful players. They are still worth a lot more than noobish hunters and champs.

[mkcraft27]

I spared a thought for burgs the other day whilst doing Thikil Gundu for over 2 maybe 3 hrs on the near impossible 2nd boss in T2..

LM's are your friend for that boss, also I would take a warden tank instead of a guard until the guard gets some gear drops and can get their tac mit up.

[QueenArleth]

problem is getting into the raid when you can't get gear drops, heh

All of the drops are account-bound. You can gear a burg if you play another agility class, or ask group members for their drops that they don't need.
I have been gearing my burglar with purple/teal duplicate drops that I got on my hunter.

[Drizzels]

a raid burg who is mostly yellow during progress raid does not need a lot of gear.

[flirtswithmediocrity]

actually t3 glimmer has brought CC back. I was in a champ/lrm/rk group and the loremaster CC/debuff/heal ability was enough to beat t3 with a champ tank and rk dps. Several of the pulls were started by a mez. So CC does matter again. Yellow Burg debuff/CC/heals is enough to beat t2 glimmer when combined with dps/tank. Not to mention that burg+red/blue cpt+ tank is a really fun trio. it's true that caverns final boss is rough on melee, but for the thilik gundu pulls CC is very helpful. Bigger problem is convincing pugs burg is good.

[swamphobbit]

.... Bigger problem is convincing pugs burg is good.

I apologize if this seems a direction away from the thread's intent, but I don't believe what I am about to post is without merit. But this part of your post.... you nailed it. And this is nothing new, but it seems more common on this end of the game's life cycle than it did back at the beginning.


And therein lies the problem overall, imo. If you are not in a good casual/raiding kin, good luck finding enough people to "trust" you.

And dare I say it, the "unintended" consequences of multiple slot gear from old instances run at level cap - isn't that the literal definition of an exploit?!? - bypassing the grind for one slot gear with another grind involving scaled, yet older, content.


Is this WAI? Seeing the new gear, and the near impossibility of attaining the stat recommendations for T2/T3 content - think mitigations - I'm beginning to believe that this is an acceptable, albeit unintended, exploit. I "thought" the idea was to make the leveling experience more palatable and more streamlined throughout? I see a grind for multiple sets of gear with multiple essence builds in an attempt to be viable for the raid. How many people are going to run the raid? Or more to the point, how many people will trust people "off the street", bringing them in and seeing what they're made of.

I know the raiding community. They can be quite snooty and picky at times, but more to the point: very exclusive.


And try as I may, I still do not understand the chest locks. Maybe it's just my age, idk, but this system is not intuitive. I have tanked Glimmer 2 successfully - playing the good little ping-pong ball, bouncing off of walls and trolls and nodes...

sorry got caught up in the moment, and I'm still bruised from last night's run :P

Anyway, all the way through and got nothing but Grarik coins for the effort.

In the meantime I have only run Caverns on T1 and Steel Keep on T1. I hold no illusions whatsoever, that with the current state of the playerbase, that I'll have an easy time running those at the higher Tiers, given that I am not going to run old scaled to 120 content in the hope that I can get multiple slot armour to bypass what is an inferior gear grind.

That's my choice, I get it. I consider it an exploit, not the first of it's kind mind you, but an exploit still. I don't exploit and therefore find myself hearing the immortal words of Hudson: game over man, game over. Now I'm gonna buy it on this rock....




I guess, despite whatever criticism I may receive for this post, I'm not seeing the big picture here. I've been raiding and grouping since I first started playing this game. I've been in some really good kins: FLOTNE, Redemption, Resistance, Casual Raiders. Grouped with other really good kins, e.g., East India Tea Company, etc.

A lot, if not most, of those people are gone. They're not coming back. Sometimes I feel like a stranger in a world I have been a big part of over the last decade.

Times, they sure have changed. I wish nothing but long term success, but it's getting frustrating to realize that maybe the game has passed me by, and not because I can't play just because it doesn't seem to make as much sense as it once did.

to all who read this

ymmv, I guess I'm just venting at where we are and how we got here

[Valkrist]

For years, the Burg has been in a really bad situation.

(emphasis mine)

The accuracy of this statement can be evaluated by the responses to it.

"True, the Burglar is in a tough spot right now with regard to group content, but the Mordor instances were much more suited to them, so things are cyclical and tend to even out..."

or

"True, the Burglar has been in a tough spot for both the new instances and the Mordor instances, but the Pelennor instances were much more suited to them, so things are cyclical and tend to even out..."

or

"True, the Burglar has been in a tough spot for the new instances as well as the Mordor and Pelennor instances, but the Osgiliath instances..."

You get the idea

If the responses to this statement had been something along these lines, that would be evidence that this aspect of the Burglar's situation was just a momentary, temporary event.

Instead, what have the responses been?

Burglars are still going to be useful when the raid drops, just as it was in Abyss right in the midst of the class change updates.

All of the drops are account-bound. You can gear a burg if you play another agility class, or ask group members for their drops that they don't need

a raid burg who is mostly yellow during progress raid does not need a lot of gear.

These can be essentially characterized as:

1. It's okay Burglars aren't useful now because they eventually will be (hopefully).
2. Rather than enjoying the content and experiencing the satisfaction of earning their gear, Burglars are supposed to beg for scraps at the table of the other classes.
3. Burglars have so little utility that their gear does not matter.

On my burg i had no problem finding grps for t2 and even did the instances on t3.

The problem with this is that not every Burglar player is 'An Original Challenger of the Abyss' or a Raid leader of a top raiding kin.

I remember someone asking for ranged DPS for Ruined City back in those days and responded (as a Burglar). They would not take me. I patiently explained, as I have always had to, that I had done this instance dozens of times, knew how to deal with the troll, knew when to move away from Lumithil, and so on. They still would not take me, under any circumstance.

I gave up and went on to other things. After a while, I saw they were still asking for ranged DPS. I replied again, saying that had they accepted me when I had first responded, they would have been done with the instance by now. But they still would not bring me along.

This was the rule rather than the exception, and it remains so today. The only reason anyone has for accepting a Burglar for these instances is out of a sense of obligation, like kin membership or if the leader owes the Burglar money or something.

What about the intermediate level Burglar? Are they really just supposed to wait for the raid and beg for scraps from other players?

Except wo plays burgs? The most skilful players. They are still worth a lot more than noobish hunters and champs.

This is not only true but has become an issue, in my opinion. There is a small but significant portion of the Burglar player base that enjoys the exclusivity of the Burglar class and lobbies to keep it so by being Burglar apologists, in my opinion.

On a related but opposite side of the coin is the PvE versus PvMP debate regarding Burglars. Burglars have a skillset that makes them uniquely suited to PvMP. There are some who feel that Burglars are overpowered in PvMP (which may be so) and will argue that Burglars need to be 'nerfed' in that realm (which may also be so).

However, they will not make the distinction between the PvE realm and the PvMP realm when making their case, believing that there is a better chance of Burglars being nerfed if they assert that their position is true across both realms. This sometimes leads to arguments being made that are ludicrous on their face (Stealth and Touch and Go are just as useful in instances as they are in the Ettenmoors, DPS parsing on a stationary training dummy accurately reflects each classes' damage contribution in a raid environment, and so on).

Given that I have been waiting for months to see if the trait that gives the Minstrel's Raise the Spirit skill a heal over time is ever going to get fixed before switching out legacies, I do not see SSG addressing the Burglar's plight any time soon. In fact, I would give less than even odds that they are even aware of it.

[Wolf2x]

The problem is that while the devs were focusing so much on trying to balance dps classes, they forgot the fact that you can only take 1 or 2 support class for 6 man instance.

What are the options for these support spots?

Lore Master - Leaps and bounds more useful than Burglar when it comes to support capabilities. Better offensive debuffs. Better defensive debuffs. Better CC. Sure you can carry a Burglar if the group is good enough (which 95% of the groups are not) but getting a lore-master instead will make everyones lives much easier.

Captain - The support potential of Captain is comparable to a Burglar, but on top of that Captain can also switch to off-tank whenever needed, and able to in-combat rez, which both are extremely crucial.

Burglar - Has better DPS than Captain or Lore Master while doing its support job, but it doesn’t matter because 2 other dps in the group is more than enough dps for just about any 6-man.

Which 2 would you take?

[maartena]

I think the Burglar as a SOLO player is fine..... but in a fellowship, they certainly do need some attention. The burglar is getting a significant damage advantage when standing behind a mob that is held by a tank, and I believe that this damage output should be significantly increased.

The way to do this might be by changing some of the skills in such a way that they only have an increased damage output IF you hit them with some other skill first.... that will exclude the damage output being "abused" in solo play, as as soon as you hit a mob, it will turn around and face you. In a group however, the mob will face the tank.... and with that in mind, backstab damage output should be significantly increased over front damage output. And I am talking the kind of damage that if you have the opportunity to backstab a mob continuously (while a tank holds the mob), the damage output should match that of hunters. That would make the burglar once again a wanted class in groups.....

[groucho42]

This is only one of many reason I stopped raiding.

Devs used to design challenges that could be done with a complete mix of characters, all you needed to do is find the right strategy for the mix. Now it's all a dps race, with debuff such as burg yellow line, not mattering, or a boss is set up for pure ranged. It's lazy by the devs because most raiders are lazy. They don't want to think, they just want to repeat a set pattern to get their toys.

Unfortunately, I don't see it changing.

[Mithithil]

This is only one of many reason I stopped raiding.

Devs used to design challenges that could be done with a complete mix of characters, all you needed to do is find the right strategy for the mix. Now it's all a dps race, with debuff such as burg yellow line, not mattering, or a boss is set up for pure ranged. It's lazy by the devs because most raiders are lazy. They don't want to think, they just want to repeat a set pattern to get their toys.

Unfortunately, I don't see it changing.

This is the crux of it all. Why take support when another dps makes it quicker? Time was when support classes acted as "force multipliers", I used to tell Hunters to "burn your power, I have plenty more" when playing LM, or as a Burglar "we can do a blue conjunction if folk need power" and it would be so. Now just take another Hunter

And this too
>>>
The way to do this might be by changing some of the skills in such a way that they only have an increased damage output IF you hit them with some other skill first.... that will exclude the damage output being "abused" in solo play, as as soon as you hit a mob, it will turn around and face you. In a group however, the mob will face the tank.... and with that in mind, backstab damage output should be significantly increased over front damage output. And I am talking the kind of damage that if you have the opportunity to backstab a mob continuously (while a tank holds the mob), the damage output should match that of hunters. That would make the burglar once again a wanted class in groups...
>>>
Just treat PvP and PvE ias two different games where skill overlaps dont happen. or can PvP as a diversion of effort, I digress...:-)

I'm fortunate that I'm in a good kin and getting instance and raid slots isn't too hard, but I've seen far too much stuff of late that is simply dps oruientated. Mordor dailies, dps 25 minutes for the lot, support classes at least 3x that. Northern Strongholds ones, as bad, U23...same. Its now feeding itself, there are many who expect their toys to drop quickly at the exclusion of any they dont actually have to have.

[Fingerz]

For years, the Burg has been in a really bad situation. Mezzing is no longer considered a necessity in group content, and when it is, the LM is still the class groups prefer to take because they have aoe and group buffs. The burg is really only useful on main bosses for raid content, which is hard to get into when you can't get t2 content runs to save your life.

Why can't you get t2 content runs?

Because everyone wants either AOE or Ranged damage. Single-target melee damage is useless against trash, and single-target ranged damage from hunters and RKs easily outpaces burg damage.

Burg needs serious dev attention. I see devs finally ready to help the Beorning class - which needs it, don't get me wrong - but after you've helped them out, do you think you could give us some love?

My #1 recommendation to fix burgs is simple: Make yellow-line a true AOE line. Trickster seems like it should do that, because the way it's worded indicates that trick skills should become aoe permanently as long as you stay in combat. It doesn't work that way, though - only the first trick skill is aoe, and that clears the buff. If it simply worked as written, we'd be able to build decent aoe dps (not great - we wouldn't be champs - but we'd simultaneously be debuffing everything in the area.

Or maybe part of reaching the top of the yellow tree should be that they simply all become aoe.

My #2 recommendation would be to add damage to Dust in the Eyes while in this mode, so that we can be rotating through all 4 tricks and keep up dps.

Yellow line trickster and dust/twist are the only AE debuff skills yes but nothing says you can only debuff one mob at a time, cool down on tricks are short in comparison to the trick duration, tab through the mobs and apply to all.

If it helps here's some idea's that worked well for me

Complete TG Tier 3 on my burg in main yellow/Red - Dissable and Addle are your friends, Riddle/rdy abble to mez x2 targets, dust + Improved startling twist for 8 sec AE stun, stack reveal and enrages. Pretty powerful if you ask me and better than a Lore master for Second Boss with ability to apply addle and dissable faster than Lore master can frost lore.

Completed TG Tier 2 and Red/Blue - Provoke mez is your friend and burst dps is extremely powerful with updated gear and essences.

Burg's not in a bad spot for TG....Caverns though is another matter altogether, far too range friendly and melee unfriendly.

That being said I'd like to see some QoL changes for burg going forwards..

[Vanyaerunanethiel]

Truly, I will be completely clear and Sincere the Burglar is the least played class at in my own compendium. They can without doubt thrilling and generally "fun" Well fun is a relative term, if you a fan of sneaking around,surely, though sneaking and burgling was a lot more exciting long long time ago in Ancient days. Burglar was incredibly useful in groups for conjunctions which are now almost virtually never used.

Certainly why would anyone take A burg if the class is lack in more potent AoE Damage, De-buff capability,inferior Crowd control. Lore-master will topples him/her in almost every aspect. It is very difficult to find a proper group as a burglar. Hunter is preferred for Ranged combat and will smite monsters from afar, has is also under the possession of poison removal as Burglar. Lore-master is superior in every regard providing cures,de-buffs,damage,pet and superb versatility. Surely should they lack DPS Champion will take the throne or Red Rune-Keeper.

Draigoch was a golden mine for a Burglar for Conjs,Sadly these days are gone even, It takes several players to quickly burn him down unless you are planning to do Tier IIc run.Tis nothing but a sole instance. Burglars were diminished since Riders of Rohan expansion{2012} and were always the purest solo class there is. As for now they never been in weaker state for they cannot even 1 shoot/strike Monsters within the Ettenmoors.

Undoubtedly they can complete Tier II-III Content but it will far more complicated to find players willing to accept burglars or those possessing right knowledge to finish the instance properly.

You should not be discouraged at all by my words, You can always fashion a Burglar and enjoy solo progression in Middle-Earth. besides that Burglar is a lone Wolf. Thief in the night Burgle,sneak and live in the shadows!!

It reminded when they were called upon to to sneak all the way to Iorellen's camp Decade ago and summon the companions! {Rift Camp}When stealth and conjs mattered!



( :


Personal opinion:

The Burglar was A LOT more valuable class in the Vanilla/Moria, perhaps in Siege of Mirkwood as well. Stealth was more effective, one could easily finish exploration deeds,burgle without been detected,summon fellowship,bypass superbly dangerous foes,Pop conjs{Power restore was a saviour} and was generally more desired for even off hand DPS,Debuffs and so on. With time slowly class faded away because other classes could simply fit every role burg could with greater effect plus the conjs disappeared and Overall Landscape difficulty became non exist , Twas no more needed to have Sneaky one around. Stealth,element of surprise, HIPS, stealing items was incredibly useful , because game was a lot more daunting. One cannot even compare 2007/08 burglar or current one, Almost everything has changed,not only the class which ultimately impacted the burglar.

A sole fact of being able to virtually go anywhere undetected 11-10 days ago was overpowered ,least to say within lethal and incomprehensibly inhospitable environment , same goes for instances when Burglar used to save entire group with conjs for either power/health restore

[Fingerz]

Truly, I will be completely clear and Sincere the Burglar is the least played class at in my own compendium. They can without doubt thrilling and generally "fun" Well fun is a relative term, if you a fan of sneaking around,surely, though sneaking and burgling was a lot more exciting long long time ago in Ancient days. Burglar was incredibly useful in groups for conjunctions which are now almost virtually never used.

Certainly why would anyone take A burg if the class is lack in more potent AoE Damage, De-buff capability,inferior Crowd control. Lore-master will topples him/her in almost every aspect. It is very difficult to find a proper group as a burglar. Hunter is preferred for Ranged combat and will smite monsters from afar, has is also under the possession of poison removal as Burglar. Lore-master is superior in every regard providing cures,de-buffs,damage,pet and superb versatility. Surely should they lack DPS Champion will take the throne or Red Rune-Keeper.

Draigoch was a golden mine for a Burglar for Conjs,Sadly these days are gone even, It takes several players to quickly burn him down unless you are planning to do Tier IIc run.Tis nothing but a sole instance. Burglars were diminished since Riders of Rohan expansion{2012} and were always the purest solo class there is. As for now they never been in weaker state for they cannot even 1 shoot/strike Monsters within the Ettenmoors.

Undoubtedly they can complete Tier II-III Content but it will far more complicated to find players willing to accept burglars or those possessing right knowledge to finish the instance properly.

You should not be discouraged at all by my words, You can always fashion a Burglar and enjoy solo progression in Middle-Earth. besides that Burglar is a lone Wolf. Thief in the night Burgle,sneak and live in the shadows!!

It reminded when they were called upon to to sneak all the way to Iorellen's camp Decade ago and summon the companions! {Rift Camp}When stealth and conjs mattered!



( :


Personal opinion:

The Burglar was A LOT more valuable class in the Vanilla/Moria, perhaps in Siege of Mirkwood as well. Stealth was more effective, one could easily finish exploration deeds,burgle without been detected,summon fellowship,bypass superbly dangerous foes,Pop conjs{Power restore was a saviour} and was generally more desired for even off hand DPS,Debuffs and so on. With time slowly class faded away because other classes could simply fit every role burg could with greater effect plus the conjs disappeared and Overall Landscape difficulty became non exist , Twas no more needed to have Sneaky one around. Stealth,element of surprise, HIPS, stealing items was incredibly useful , because game was a lot more daunting. One cannot even compare 2007/08 burglar or current one, Almost everything has changed,not only the class which ultimately impacted the burglar.

A sole fact of being able to virtually go anywhere undetected 11-10 days ago was overpowered ,least to say within lethal and incomprehensibly inhospitable environment , same goes for instances when Burglar used to save entire group with conjs for either power/health restore

Not to disrespect you yet I think you under-estimate what a well played burg can do in respect of group play in comparison to a lore master in a 6 man fellowship - De-buffs/buffs which can stack up, reveal weakness dmg increase for entire group and decent single target DPS even in debuff trait line.

Those that would not consider taking a burg over (or unable to find) a lore master to fill debuffer role in current TG runs are missing a trick