U23.2 Beorning Class Update Feedback

[Saruman_Of_Numbers]

will this include guardians redirect? And how will it be affected?

nooooooooooo don't tell him!

[zipfile]

Abilities that channel damage to another player, like Redirect and Sacrifice, are less high on our list of concerns, though if we discover combos where that damage can be massively redirected and then nullified (by an ability like Last Stand), then we'll have to look at them harder.

-Vastin

That's not what Redirect does.

[zipfile]

That's not what Redirect does.

[Saruman_Of_Numbers]

That's not what Redirect does.

[zipfile]

[img]my screenshot, but better cropped

He corrected himself, but his original statement made it look like Redirect worked the same/similar was as Sacrifice did, which is wrong.

[Saruman_Of_Numbers]

He corrected himself, but his original statement made it look like Redirect worked the same/similar was as Sacrifice did, which is wrong.

you beat me to the punch on the screenie post, we posted within seconds of each other :P

Im wondering what he's talking about though, how would reflect trivialize raid fights? also, what about Exchange of Blows?

[Vastin]

you beat me to the punch on the screenie post, we posted within seconds of each other :P

Im wondering what he's talking about though, how would reflect trivialize raid fights? also, what about Exchange of Blows?

Pretty easily unfortunately.

And yes, there are a number of skills we need to examine. The smaller magnitude reflects probably aren't a real problem, but there are a few north of 30% which can get pretty game breaking if a raid group can buff an individual enough to survive huge amounts of inc. damage for several seconds - which they can.

Also reflected damage currently ignores pretty much all defenses, which makes them MUCH worse than their %'s would appear to indicate.

-Vastin

[Vastin]

That's not what Redirect does.

Nope, I was thinking Shield Wall, because that actually, you know, redirects.

-Vastin

[Smapper]

Pretty easily unfortunately.

And yes, there are a number of skills we need to examine. The smaller magnitude reflects probably aren't a real problem, but there are a few north of 30% which can get pretty game breaking if a raid group can buff an individual enough to survive huge amounts of inc. damage for several seconds - which they can.

Also reflected damage currently ignores pretty much all defenses, which makes them MUCH worse than their %'s would appear to indicate.

-Vastin

Hey vastin
Since your saying this, it is safe to assume you have watched this video?


This video has very little to do with the fact that reflect is op, this video is showing off a broken instance. Those trolls have been broken for a while, in fact, completing that instance on T2c since the release of mordor has been an achievement raiders have valued more than completing abyss of mordath on T2c.
So to conclude, reflect, not overtly broken, this instance, broken.

[Saruman_Of_Numbers]

Pretty easily unfortunately.

And yes, there are a number of skills we need to examine. The smaller magnitude reflects probably aren't a real problem, but there are a few north of 30% which can get pretty game breaking if a raid group can buff an individual enough to survive huge amounts of inc. damage for several seconds - which they can.

Also reflected damage currently ignores pretty much all defenses, which makes them MUCH worse than their %'s would appear to indicate.

-Vastin

lets assume reflect of 50%

the reflect damage is reflected damage received.. meaning if the user of the reflect is loaded up with defensive buffs or part of the damage taken is siphoned off to someone else, that mitigated/reduced damage is not reflected....

the only situation that would make sense to use this method would be when the user has low/no defense and a high morale pool, being spamhealed by a large group of people... in which case the conversion ratio of heals-to-reflected-damage would be at best 50%, assuming the target of the reflect isn't 1-shotted by some boss skill... but the maximum HPS of 1 healer is lower than the DPS of 1 DPSer... the single-target HPS per healer would have to be twice the maximum DPS of a DPSer in that situation to even match a regular group setup.

and I said "at best" because if the mobs/bosses don't do as much DPS as the HPS being put out, than its once again falling behind the typical group setup.


The numbers don't really add up...

Hey vastin
Since your saying this, it is safe to assume you have watched this video?

This video has very little to do with the fact that reflect is op, this video is showing off a broken instance. Those trolls have been broken for a while, in fact, completing that instance on T2c since the release of mordor has been an achievement raiders have valued more than completing abyss of mordath on T2c.
So to conclude, reflect, not overtly broken, this instance, broken.

yea this is just bad scaling and instance design, its the instance that is broken here, this combo wouldn't work anywhere else with the cappy reflects.

[Vastin]

Hah, yes, I did see that one, but no, we're not comfortable with high magnitude reflects well outside the scope of that particular event.

Unfortunately we have no way to balance for reflect damage in our content. It's effectively a wild-card that in no way ties into the usual player damage scheme, so we have to keep them toned down or they can become serious problems. In short, the monster DPS isn't directly related to player DPS, so it has the potential to get way off kilter in the scheme of player dps in high end encounters where the mobs often start throwing around very large numbers.

Then there's the whole issue of overpowered group buffs/target debuffs that we need to start digging into... <sigh>

-Vastin

[Oelle]

I really dont see the issue with reflects.
If there was a way to prevent death via things like "Last Stand" AND have good reflects active AND there were enemies that hit avoidable attacks for HUGE amounts of damage, that could be used to kill those quite easily without dieing...
But afaik, besides a roving threat somewhere, no enemy deals hits that if reflected are a threat for his own life.
So whats the problem with reflected damage for enemies with millions of morale that deal thousands of DPS?
Cappies have no reflect afaik and no other tank can be invincible for more than one hit.
So Cappy plus external reflect like LM can reflect huge amounts of damage... but LM reflect isnt even really high. So its not an issue of high percent reflects, but reflects at all.
Beorns reflect can be used together with his 20% morale heal if morale goes down to reflect one big hit per minute... but thats it.
But imo, the easier workaround would be, that bosses simply dont hit completely absurd high damage numbers.
If big hits are necessary, just let them be percentual damage and everythings fine.

[Smapper]

Hah, yes, I did see that one, but no, we're not comfortable with high magnitude reflects well outside the scope of that particular event.

Unfortunately we have no way to balance for reflect damage in our content. It's effectively a wild-card that in no way ties into the usual player damage scheme, so we have to keep them toned down or they can become serious problems. In short, the monster DPS isn't directly related to player DPS, so it has the potential to get way off kilter in the scheme of player dps in high end encounters where the mobs often start throwing around very large numbers.

Then there's the whole issue of overpowered group buffs/target debuffs that we need to start digging into... <sigh>

-Vastin

Cool, it's going to be interesting taking a look at how aggro will be affected by this change since reflect did contribute to aggro since the damage is registered as a damage from the tank.
Also, this changing reflect won't have a very large effect on many things to be honest except what i mentioned above. (Unless I'm missing something integral lol )

[Vastin]

Cool, it's going to be interesting taking a look at how aggro will be affected by this change since reflect did contribute to aggro since the damage is registered as a damage from the tank.
Also, this changing reflect won't have a very large effect on many things to be honest except what i mentioned above. (Unless I'm missing something integral lol )

This particular ability has an additional component that causes it to generate an extra chunk of agro every time the mob hits the Beorning, above and beyond any damage inflicted - that component is going to stay, even if the reflect gets nerfed.

Currently I'm looking at replacing the reflect with an Inc. Healing buff for the Beorning, as that is both more helpful for actual tanking (esp right after firing off a taunt). Their personal DPS is supposed to be going up considerably anyway, which in most cases should more than make up for the loss of reflect - assuming I can get the DPS numbers right.

-Vastin

[Smapper]

This particular ability has an additional component that causes it to generate an extra chunk of agro every time the mob hits the Beorning, above and beyond any damage inflicted - that component is going to stay, even if the reflect gets nerfed.

Currently I'm looking at replacing the reflect with an Inc. Healing buff for the Beorning, as that is both more helpful for actual tanking (esp right after firing off a taunt). Their personal DPS is supposed to be going up considerably anyway, which in most cases should more than make up for the loss of reflect - assuming I can get the DPS numbers right.

-Vastin

I think you need to make some sort of special discovery if you want to make bear tanks viable since not having block is huge and pretty much a game breaker. Having the ability to block is much better than any type of mitigation or reflect or incoming so I don't know what you plan to do on that front. In fact i pride myself over having the ability to give some nice suggestions on how to fix somethings and not even i can see of a way to do this, but I'm looking forward to it!

Having bear tanks be a viable tank actually would make the game a lot more diverse since the only tank capable of tanking more than 6 mobs and survive with ease is guard.

P.S. I don't want to see you overworked (wroking at 7:36? feelsbadman) but there are simply a lot of problems.

[Saruman_Of_Numbers]

Hah, yes, I did see that one, but no, we're not comfortable with high magnitude reflects well outside the scope of that particular event.

Unfortunately we have no way to balance for reflect damage in our content. It's effectively a wild-card that in no way ties into the usual player damage scheme, so we have to keep them toned down or they can become serious problems. In short, the monster DPS isn't directly related to player DPS, so it has the potential to get way off kilter in the scheme of player dps in high end encounters where the mobs often start throwing around very large numbers.

-Vastin

consider then, tying reflect numbers to player DPS numbers, as in the case of LM fire shield? Instead of reflecting percentages, reflect damage numbers tied to mastery/outgoing damage?

[Deadly_Myths]

just curious vastin, don't you think Encouraging Roar HoT is a bit overtuned ? even without the abyss set, healing 60k per tick as a HoT is kinda too strong, also about composure, maybe make it a passive change in redline trait because even in blue line you can still easily get that from redline, and with beornings being heavy armour class i think that would be op as a tank imo.

[mrfigglesworth]

Hey vastin
Since your saying this, it is safe to assume you have watched this video?


This video has very little to do with the fact that reflect is op, this video is showing off a broken instance. Those trolls have been broken for a while, in fact, completing that instance on T2c since the release of mordor has been an achievement raiders have valued more than completing abyss of mordath on T2c.
So to conclude, reflect, not overtly broken, this instance, broken.

I would guess you are correct. this vid probably did change their view of reflects.

but reflects north of 30% are dumb.

add champs exchange of blows to that list (50% reflect). I would say change it to a 5% crit chance or 10% phys Mit bypass while exchange of blows is active but that would make yellow even more OP over red.

so make exchange of blows a red skill that does the following:

when exchange of blows is active champ gets a 5% mits bypass for strike skills, and replace the weapons master trait cap with a trait that increases that buff by 10% more.

[Vastin]

consider then, tying reflect numbers to player DPS numbers, as in the case of LM fire shield? Instead of reflecting percentages, reflect damage numbers tied to mastery/outgoing damage?

That's certainly one of the solutions we've been discussing in-house, as it is much easier to gauge and scale such effects, and probably wouldn't be very hard to shift over to in most cases.

-Vastin

[Vastin]

just curious vastin, don't you think Encouraging Roar HoT is a bit overtuned ? even without the abyss set, healing 60k per tick as a HoT is kinda too strong, also about composure, maybe make it a passive change in redline trait because even in blue line you can still easily get that from redline, and with beornings being heavy armour class i think that would be op as a tank imo.

The direct HoT may well be a bit too powerful as is. I'm tweaking it a bit (slightly longer cooldown, slightly lower heal magnitude) - but I'd rather not inadvertently nerf bear healing into the ground.

This is something I'm going to take one step at a time on palantir and bullroarer and see where the new values fall before making another round of changes.

-Vastin

[zipfile]

This particular ability has an additional component that causes it to generate an extra chunk of agro every time the mob hits the Beorning, above and beyond any damage inflicted - that component is going to stay, even if the reflect gets nerfed.

Currently I'm looking at replacing the reflect with an Inc. Healing buff for the Beorning, as that is both more helpful for actual tanking (esp right after firing off a taunt). Their personal DPS is supposed to be going up considerably anyway, which in most cases should more than make up for the loss of reflect - assuming I can get the DPS numbers right.

-Vastin

Inc. Healing would only result in the morale bar spiking and going down all the time. Perhaps have it give extra avoidances per enemy taunted, up to a cap? (2% parry/evade partial per enemy, up to 5 enemies?)

If I may steal the show, what's going to happen with Guardians inherit belt legacy? Currently, Shield Use rank is disabled and it's been like that ever since the start.

Edit: Wrong quote.

[Saruman_Of_Numbers]

too late Zipfile....... Vastin has returned to his burrow for the winter, and won't awaken until spring..... or next beta round.

[zipfile]

too late Zipfile....... Vastin has returned to his burrow for the winter, and won't awaken until spring..... or next beta round.

Then I'll be looking forward to the next interaction! It's very warming to see devs on the forums and to discuss with them and I thank Vastin for being down-to-earth when it comes to such things.

[Rahvanox]

I have a beorning bug that I don't think has been mentioned yet. It has special conditions to happen as well but I know what those conditions are.
Bear Relentless maul icon bug- the relentless maul icon on quickslot bar will be on cooldown but the icon animation(faded but lighting up clockwise slowly) will reset to be completely lit up. The skill however will still be on cooldown.

Relentless maul icon bug has 3 conditions needed to appear.
1. Red line with Brutal Energy trait
2. Beorning Shapeshift bar swap in Options-Quickslots needs to be checked
3. After using Relentless maul, while its on cooldown, switch into Man form.
Do all 3 of these and the bug will occur.

This link will show what the bug looks like. (sorry for the poor resolution.)
https://youtu.be/PuUTM-z7R4k

Please fix this bug and thank you for your time.
EDIT: I have also submitted a ticket for this bug to be fixed with all the same info.

[Naranor]

% heal, and % reflection must be deleted from the game - this things brokes game mechanics. Sagrog, eterfang, 120 battle of erebor(also remember 65lvl where lm could kill them alone) - with %heal and reflect this instances are stupid. Rating reflect like 500-1000 will be ok. %heal must be replaced by rating, something like 5% = 5000-10000heal.