U23.2 Burglar Class Update Feedback

[Teyaha]

The Burglar needs a lot more TLC than just changes to Reveal Weakness. Many end-game instances are heavily biassed towards ranged DPS, leaving the burglar out in the cold.
Since the release of update 23, the Burglar has suffered badly, with very poor DPS and surviivability. Given that the class is a toe to toe DPS class, this is a dramatic down-slide.
After U23 I found that the Burglar (my main class) was so useless that I have hardly played it once it got to 120.
As it's main purpose is toe-to-toe single target DPS (with a bit of debuffing) it needs to excel at that, unfortunately just changing Reveal Weakness will not achieve that. The Burglar needs significant upgrades to both DPS and survivability, plus ways to participate in the end game boss fights that have become dominated by ranged DPS.

This is a fundamental problem with the game that is not exclusive to the burglar. Melee single target dps on the classes that can’t tank or were not designed with tanking in general is far too low given the way fights are designed to punish melee players, both in and outside of raids. In a stand still no movement no mechanics fight, melee dps lines should do more single target dps. Why? As compensation for dps downtime when they do have to move off due to mechanics. That is good holy trinity group gameplay design.

I personally think blue line should be the highest sustained dps, with the damage coming mostly from the two bleeds granted by the spec and not cunning attack. Let red be burst suitable for pvp and make yellow debuffs work and be on par with a loremaster. Once a design role has been established, stick with it.

[Snobs]

I'm hoping the devs are reading this thread to this point because:

Burglar - skill damage and DoT damage increased. With reveal weakness decreasing in potency, Burglar damage needed to increase to compensate.

This change was supposed to be on Bullroarer Preview Build#1 but it never made it on to Bullroarer ... please DO NOT FORGET this change, otherwise it will simply be a nerf to burglars (because Reveal Weakness is nerfed and its damage lost is not compensated then) which is already the most terrible class in 3man and 6man content and it would hurt them even more.

[KrahjarnFellarrow]

Twaddle

1. Never asked YOUR opinion.

2. I don't care about your opinion

3. Go find somebody who cares about your BS speeches.

[Evan13cbg]

Yeah there is a change that you can use only 1 reveal weakness per target at all.

In general even a good change but without any other burg changes/neither dps/bleed dmg upgrades its a total fail.....

Then patch notes for burglar changes specifically said reveal weakness can now only stack up to two times. So what’s the deal, either this change was not implented or they trolling us.

[throinmor]

I've been waiting a lot of time for the burglar rework. It's sad to see not only minor changes, but ones that put the class in a worst position.

I was expecting a whole blue line re-work with more changes in yellow and red ones. This seems some changes requested in creepside or people that never played a burglar.

Really, if these are the changes you propose, leave the burglar as is now, and increase the the melee range a little bit...

I have been really tired of farming instances whiting these weeks only to see changes that only promote the use of in game shop. And now this.

I have two VIP accounts, one of them lifetime, and when I arrive from work to connect to this game I expect to enjoy some hours. The months we spent picking up flowers were hard enough, but at least we had ettens, now not even that. If this stays as is now in the beta, probably I will quit.

good luck.

[Saruman_Of_Numbers]

This seems some changes requested in creepside

No one on creepside asked for these changes.

Creepside's #1 beef with burgs has been Coupe De Grace and the cunning attack bleeds... both of which were buffed with this update.

The other changes help burg more than they hurt, the buff to Touch and Go makes it more useful in situations against wargs/spiders, where previously it was semi-useless because those skills could not be evaded.

Burgs can now basically fullheal with double use of Touch and Go, effectively doubling their morale pool.

in 1v1, the debuffs from reveal weakness may actually be relevant now that you get all 3 on the mark.

[Drizzels]

No one on creepside asked for these changes.

Creepside's #1 beef with burgs has been Coupe De Grace and the cunning attack bleeds... both of which were buffed with this update.

The other changes help burg more than they hurt, the buff to Touch and Go makes it more useful in situations against wargs/spiders, where previously it was semi-useless because those skills could not be evaded.

Burgs can now basically fullheal with double use of Touch and Go, effectively doubling their morale pool.

in 1v1, the debuffs from reveal weakness may actually be relevant now that you get all 3 on the mark.

The point is we didnt got any buffs(the so called buffs to compensate the reveal weakness nerv never happend on br and i 99% doubt they wil be on live). and noone asked for the 505 heal.

all in all a saad update


Edit:dont forget that we got a silent 10-20% dps nerv with Update 21.3 that never got explained to us:

https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...eedback-thread

[Saruman_Of_Numbers]

The point is we didnt got any buffs(the so called buffs to compensate the reveal weakness nerv never happend on br and i 99% doubt they wil be on live)

ah, yea that's a problem then, clearly a bug and not WAI, not watch the patch notes said, etc...


I agree that yellow/blue line needs some love.

....but people insinuating that the changes made are somehow the result of "creep QQ" is absurd.

Even if the lack of a DPS boost does hit live, burgs are still guaranteed a spot in raids for the buffs/debuffs they bring.

[Drizzels]

ah, yea that's a problem then, clearly a bug and not WAI, not watch the patch notes said, etc...


I agree that yellow/blue line needs some love.

....but people insinuating that the changes made are somehow the result of "creep QQ" is absurd.

Even if the lack of a DPS boost does hit live, burgs are still guaranteed a spot in raids for the buffs/debuffs they bring.

i wouldnt be so sure about that.
in all the years i would answer that with a clear yes but atm i only see 1 spot for a yellow burg if you need double disable.

Otherwise just take an extra fire rk and do more raid dps.
its really quite sad atm.
I play this class as a main since lv 75/85 and the first time i dont see myself being able to do well in a raid where i would rather play a different class for progression raid.

[Areyekuwe]

Burglars currently, have DPS that is not high. And obviously melee range, need to move to be close to the target translates into more lost rounds.

Weak debuffs, In fact worst out of all support classes.

No high survivability, oh we even get detected in stealth easily when on level.

And resultant class changes play with nearly with ever so slight shades of grey as in nerf to reveal weakness. Just Wow.

In nearly every thread there is a bunch of people that are asking for more nerfs too? -Especially the ones that elsewhere say they do not play Burglar. What good times!

SSG just does not want people to play Burglar class, it is clear.

Oh yea, burglars do ok in landscape, especially below level and thrive in 12 men raid, where no one cares. But we do best in a raid that goes like this: "Need any".

Our abilities need to be debugged and fixed. Our defence and offence needs to be scaled to the top game, to be along other classes, please. It would also be good if we could really debuff well or something.

[Areyekuwe]

Otherwise just take an extra fire rk and do more raid dps.
its really quite sad atm.

Finally an actual post from you. All this long technical stuff to an exact 1/32nd on an inch of add here and subtract there, At least for me was missing fundamental idea above.

There are DPS classes that use range and deal huge damage. Burglars come on raids when it is "need any" otherwise we just waste a valuable spot. And there are support classes that are good at what they do. What is left for us? Fishing is as good as it gets.

Devs should look at us as a class and give us something strong, something we could do well. And if some one is tempted to tell me "you are doing it wrong, learn your class" -I am not bad, trust me and if my class requires THAT much learning that I can not do it, it is just broken.

[Areyekuwe]

I've been waiting a lot of time for the burglar rework. It's sad to see not only minor changes, but ones that put the class in a worst position.

I was expecting a whole blue line re-work with more changes in yellow and red ones. This seems some changes requested in creepside or people that never played a burglar.

Really, if these are the changes you propose, leave the burglar as is now, and increase the the melee range a little bit...

I have been really tired of farming instances whiting these weeks only to see changes that only promote the use of in game shop. And now this.

I have two VIP accounts, one of them lifetime, and when I arrive from work to connect to this game I expect to enjoy some hours. The months we spent picking up flowers were hard enough, but at least we had ettens, now not even that. If this stays as is now in the beta, probably I will quit.

good luck.

Devs should read this over and over, please be nice to us, because remember: we pay you, not the other way around. I highlighted what sums up how I feel and I only played this game and Burglar class for 2 years. Not cool to ask for feedback from people that feel like this based on next to no changes then give us no response.

[Flintryth]

One update that needs doing is something I have said about for like the last 4 years now! Which have always fallen on deaf ears!!!!

Burg bleeds from stealth get overwritten by bleeds after out of stealth - example being - Crit bleed from stealth doing 10k damage will be overwritten by a non-stealth Crit bleed of 7k, same thing happens with Dev Crit Bleeds

Another issue with this same mechanic is after using Feint Attack - If you use it then get a dev or crit, it will remove the previous bleed and place with a lower damage bleed


The heal from Relish battle is ludicrous - 3k initial and 360ish every 3 secs - a mob can hit you 2 times in 3 secs and does 10-20k+ damage each hit - sidenote on the heal is also that overall a 6K heal when a Char has 70K morale isn't a dent into getting health back, The burg is basically screwed over when it comes to self healing compared to any other DPS class


Provoke - Could really use a massive overhaul, being that -2% Crit Chance is POINTLESS!!!!!

Trip is ok as a stun or interrupt - but the CJ part needs to be changed to something else - also this skill with the way the animation is, would better be served as a AOE KNOCKDOWN

As stated by a few people - Knives out reflect needs to be increased or overhauled- 30% reflect of the reduction to 20% incoming damage means its only reflecting average amounts of like 2-300 (this dont even put a dent in anything),, One thing that could be done is it reflects the actual main damage being done to the burg before reduction to 20% happens!! example being - a 100k hit incoming reflects 30k and then get hit for 20k instead of the get hit for 20K and reflect 3-4k


I've been personally so disheartened with burg over the past year I have not even played more than like 2 or 3 times (FECLEZ)

[Oelle]

One update that needs doing is something I have said about for like the last 4 years now! Which have always fallen on deaf ears!!!!

Burg bleeds from stealth get overwritten by bleeds after out of stealth - example being - Crit bleed from stealth doing 10k damage will be overwritten by a non-stealth Crit bleed of 7k, same thing happens with Dev Crit Bleeds

Another issue with this same mechanic is after using Feint Attack - If you use it then get a dev or crit, it will remove the previous bleed and place with a lower damage bleed

When I last played a burglar, I could stack up to 4 different non-critical CA bleeds on top of a critical/dev CA bleed AND a stealth/FA CA bleed.
Stealth/CA bleeds dont overwrite crit/dev bleeds, neither does this happen the other way round.

Sure, it would be nice to be able to stack all kinds of bleeds, even if that means, that the stealth-bleed and FA-bleed gets a bit weaker.
But that they overwrite each other is simply not true. At least not when I last checked it.

[Flintryth]

When I last played a burglar, I could stack up to 4 different non-critical CA bleeds on top of a critical/dev CA bleed AND a stealth/FA CA bleed.
Stealth/CA bleeds dont overwrite crit/dev bleeds, neither does this happen the other way round.

Sure, it would be nice to be able to stack all kinds of bleeds, even if that means, that the stealth-bleed and FA-bleed gets a bit weaker.
But that they overwrite each other is simply not true. At least not when I last checked it.

you should try again, coz it still happens where you use bleed from stealth and if using FA it then changes the bleed,


I have even Streamed it happening on my personal and in the past on the Official Twitch channel

What I think should happen is that the from stealth bleed and the FA bleed should be separate, this way it would have a possibility of 2 different Crit bleeds.


the issue is that FA is deemed to be a from stealth skill but it does not actually apply the from stealth bleeds as you are not in stealth

[luckygirl1]

Why are these changes being pushed to live so soon? The burglar is getting some of the least amount of work done to their class, this is about as bad as champion update. Nothing about these "updates" will change the way the class has been played. Instead you give us a nerf to reveal weakness and 50% heal with touch and go. At most burglar will be needed for double disables in the raid.

Why did the developer not:
Adjust tricks in yellow line to be more flexible (see counter defense)
Fix burglar skill animations for Male Hobbit, Female Hobbit, and Female Human
Completely overhaul blue line, I do not play blue line, but I am sure some burglar here have given good feedback on this.
Increase DoT and single target damage (its lower now, and the adjustments did not compensate for the incoming damage decrease from reveal weakness)


Am I just yelling at the wind at this point? Probably, said developer who is working on this class has made it pretty clear that he/she is not interested in community feedback. Of all the classes that needed an update, burglar is arguably on top or near the top of the list. I have waited years for this to happen. And this update fails in so many ways. I am very disappointed.

[Oelle]

you should try again, coz it still happens where you use bleed from stealth and if using FA it then changes the bleed

yea, thats right. stealth-bleed and FA-bleed overwrite each other. If thats what you wrote earlier, I misread you.
I read, that you meant, that critical normal bleeds overwrite stealth-bleeds or FA-bleeds. Which they dont.
Crit or not crit doesnt have anything to do with stealth/FA bleeds (besides that stealth-bleeds are always critical in redline).
Stealth/FA bleeds are called improved versions, critical or not is not related with "improved".

the issue is that FA is deemed to be a from stealth skill but it does not actually apply the from stealth bleeds as you are not in stealth

Well... it applies some stealth-effects. Just not all. If it applied all stealth-effects, it would be quite strong.
Actually, I think it SHOULD apply all stealth-effects, but all stealth-effects should get a heavy nerf.
Like +100% damage from stealth with a single traitpoint or guaranteed crits... thats completely ridiculous. If that wasnt the case, it would be fine, if FA applied all bonusses. And well... with short CD on aim, why do we even need guaranteed crits from stealth?

But back to the topic of stackability of bleeds: I'm totally in for a nerf for CA bleed damage/stealth bonusses, if we get full stackability for CA bleeds (including improved versions) and stop being punished for critting.

[Omegaman1144]

Bob & Weave healing would work better based on a % of the character's total morale, vs a straight healing number.
I've been using blue line on Anor with great success solo because this skill heals for a greater % than it does on my 120 burg on Evernight.
4200 isn't much when you have 104000 morale.

I would also like to see the yellow line worked on a bit. Maybe give Mischievous Glee a group healing effect.

[Darkdede]

Well... it applies some stealth-effects. Just not all. If it applied all stealth-effects, it would be quite strong.
Actually, I think it SHOULD apply all stealth-effects, but all stealth-effects should get a heavy nerf.
Like +100% damage from stealth with a single traitpoint or guaranteed crits... thats completely ridiculous. If that wasnt the case, it would be fine, if FA applied all bonusses. And well... with short CD on aim, why do we even need guaranteed crits from stealth?

You know that +100% and the crit just act on the first attack from Sneak? It doesn’t act with Feint Attack. You would be just able to stack that by using vanish.

[4andreas]

I would also like to see the yellow line worked on a bit. Maybe give Mischievous Glee a group healing effect.

35 points in yellow trait line gives you Confound the Fools set bonus making Mischievous Glee into Mischievous Delight.

[Oelle]

You know that +100% and the crit just act on the first attack from Sneak? It doesn’t act with Feint Attack. You would be just able to stack that by using vanish.

Yes. I know. Was my post unclear?

If burglars lost their ability to reset most of their cooldowns (which they should) and get their from-stealth-bonusses nerfed (because +100% damage and guaranteed crits are ridiculous), it wouldn't be any issue to be able to stack all kinds of CA-bleeds.

[Omegaman1144]

35 points in yellow trait line gives you Confound the Fools set bonus making Mischievous Glee into Mischievous Delight.

I realized this last night and thought, "Man, the other burglar players are gonna think I'm an idiot".

I don't play yellow line much. It shows lol. I've used red line almost exclusively as i don't raid.
I've been using Gambler line on Anor on my lil burg, and it's really fun.
I would like to see the heal on Bob & Weave and the red line bonus trait that heals be increased to be in line with morale at 120. My 120 burg has 104k morale.

[Snobs]

Yes. I know. Was my post unclear?

If burglars lost their ability to reset most of their cooldowns (which they should) and get their from-stealth-bonusses nerfed (because +100% damage and guaranteed crits are ridiculous), it wouldn't be any issue to be able to stack all kinds of CA-bleeds.

Stacking Cunning Attack is terribly designed, regardless of it being affected by Stealth-Bonusses or not ... I don't know if people are actually playing burglar that are commenting about Cunning Attack Stackability. I made it very clear in my previous posts (which you might not have read) how Cunning Attack works right now and why it is terribly designed.

Otherwise please read this (which I wrote some days ago):

1. Cunning Attack: Broken Mechanic and most important change imo!

The stackability of this skill is terrible right now. You can only have 1 Improved Cunning Attack on the target, only 1 non-improved crit OR devastate cunning attack and multiple non-improved non-crit cunning attacks. This basically means that you're being punished for CRITTING (when you already have a crit version on the target) and you can't use improved cunning attack a second time and have to get rid of Feint Attack first via Provoke or another Stealth-improved skill. This makes absolutely no sense, it punishes you for things you can't control (like crits) and for trying to use the +10% damage buff of Feint Attack.

[Oelle]

Stacking Cunning Attack is terribly designed, regardless of it being affected by Stealth-Bonusses or not ... I don't know if people are actually playing burglar that are commenting about Cunning Attack Stackability. I made it very clear in my previous posts (which you might not have read) how Cunning Attack works right now and why it is terribly designed.

Otherwise please read this (which I wrote some days ago):

You are right on everything and I know of all that.
However, if we could stack all types of CA bleeds with their current strength endlessly (well, up to 6 times (32s duration, 5s CD plus animation)), that would be completely OP. 70-80% of burglars DPS would just be CA bleeds.
You could start a fight from stealth and apply stealth-crit-bigdamagebonus bleed, vanish, do it again, vanish, do it again and continue with FA-aim-CA and many more FA-CA-bleeds, maybe you'll even find an add to kill with CDG inbetween, giving you another full stealth CA-bleed.
The full stealth CA-bleeds are simply too strong to have them stack several times.

Sure, its totally annoying how it works currently. But as long as the stealthbonusses are as strong as they are, having all CA bleeds stack would result in OP DPS.

[Snobs]

You are right on everything and I know of all that.
However, if we could stack all types of CA bleeds with their current strength endlessly (well, up to 6 times (32s duration, 5s CD plus animation)), that would be completely OP. 70-80% of burglars DPS would just be CA bleeds.
You could start a fight from stealth and apply stealth-crit-bigdamagebonus bleed, vanish, do it again, vanish, do it again and continue with FA-aim-CA and many more FA-CA-bleeds, maybe you'll even find an add to kill with CDG inbetween, giving you another full stealth CA-bleed.
The full stealth CA-bleeds are simply too strong to have them stack several times.

Sure, its totally annoying how it works currently. But as long as the stealthbonusses are as strong as they are, having all CA bleeds stack would result in OP DPS.

I agree, stacking too many Improved Cunning Attacks can be (too) strong. However, most burglar damage in PvE is coming from Critical Chain Skills and the situation you're describing (stacking multiple dots from stealth) is only really relevant in PvP.

However, then there is the problem with CA how you're supposed to play around Feint Attack. Currently, you're being forced to get rid of it (because you can only do 1 Improved Cunning Attack) before using CA and because Surprise Strike animation is too long and damage is too low, the only viable skill right now is Provoke. That is not a great system in my opinion.

The second point I was making is that you MUST NOT CRIT for it being stacked if it is the NON-IMPROVED VERSION of Cunning Attack. This one makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, it punishes you for critting instead of non-critting which should never be the case for any skill of any class and especially not for burglar which is so heavily built around Critting.

The entire Stackability of this skill needs to be addressed.