Beorning Update Incoming

[Vastin]

Dual wield damage in bear form added?

Alas, no. Unfortunately it's quite a bit of work to properly retool a skill for DW, and I would have had to drop other more functional changes to get it in. Maybe some day.

-Vastin

[mrfigglesworth]

I would suggest if you require nerf, nerf soon. before raid comes out preferably. I'm sure you are going to see plenty of beornings tanking soon. there will be a lot of feedback on it.

[Smapper]

The worst thing about vastin is that there is only one vastin, I wish he was balancing all classes. Look at the burg thread, no blue name in sight, barely any feedback being acknowledged.

[Vastin]

If I had to guess I'd say the thing I'm most likely to have to tweak quickly will be wrath generation/spend. It feels too generous now, esp in blue line, where it is hard to spend your wrath down even if you try.

In any case, I'm getting a number of last minute bug fixes in now to address some of those known issues before release.

-Vastin

[Oelle]

If I had to guess I'd say the thing I'm most likely to have to tweak quickly will be wrath generation/spend. It feels too generous now, esp in blue line, where it is hard to spend your wrath down even if you try.

In any case, I'm getting a number of last minute bug fixes in now to address some of those known issues before release.

-Vastin

If in any way possible, make blue bear skills worth using.
Tanks usually dont really have offensive equipment and their damage therefore lacks. Its better for tanks to have buffing, debuffing, CC/interrupt or selfhealing abilities than just damaging abilities. Currently, blue bears litterally just deal damage while tanking and they could just as well only stand there and do nothing at all and still tank just fine with the way forcetaunts work. their debuffs are very weak as is their heal. They can buff incoming damage to increase groupdps, but thats it. two skills each 15s, everything else is just "filler"...

And the counter-counterattack mechanic is annoying.
Counter should have a much bigger CD and actually be worth using as a defensive skill. Like +50% avoidance, just like the other tanks have with 2min CD.
And counterattack shouldnt require counter being active, but give no wrath and do something interesting. Like debuffing the next enemies attack to deal 20% less damage or something like that. Or let counterattack just deal a big amount of threat. Sooner or later, beornings should get skills that actually raise threat, instead of just spamming forcetaunts.

[zipfile]

Counter should have a much bigger CD and actually be worth using as a defensive skill. Like +50% avoidance, just like the other tanks have with 2min CD.

Per point of Might, Beornings will get:

• 3 parry
• 2 block
• 1 evade

Do you really need more avoidance? On top of that, they get a ton of mitigations, on top of which they get extra morale and armour in bear form, on top of which you also want 50% avoidance?

Are you aware of what this version of a Beorning will be capable of in a raid?
Oh, you said in an earlier post you don't raid so....no wonder you argue for more.

As Joedangod posted and I'll reiterate, just because they asked for reworks/buffs, doesn't mean you should go completely overboard.
By direct comparison, this version of Beorning is more durable than the Guardian, with latters only saving grace now being Warriors Heart, though in a group that's doing everything right, it shouldn't even be used.

[Oelle]

Per point of Might, Beornings will get:

• 3 parry
• 2 block
• 1 evade

Do you really need more avoidance? On top of that, they get a ton of mitigations, on top of which they get extra morale and armour in bear form, on top of which you also want 50% avoidance?

Are you aware of what this version of a Beorning will be capable of in a raid?
Oh, you said in an earlier post you don't raid so....no wonder you argue for more.

As Joedangod posted and I'll reiterate, just because they asked for reworks/buffs, doesn't mean you should go completely overboard.
By direct comparison, this version of Beorning is more durable than the Guardian, with latters only saving grace now being Warriors Heart, though in a group that's doing everything right, it shouldn't even be used.

6 points of avoidance per mainstat isnt much different to other tanks. And I think you know how irrelevant mainstats besides vitality are for any tank. So yes, everyone that wants viable avoidance needs much more than that. And I want it as a panic-skill, not as a skill with high uptime like now. If you compare what I ask for, you could even argue, that I want to lose avoidance. Now, its 50% uptime on +10% evade. I'd be fine with 2min CD 10s duration 50% avoidance, which is less in average (4.2% vs 5%). the current version is just as annoying as wardens having to use their forcetaunt every 20s to stay at high mitigation levels.
new Beornings selfhealing capabilities are far weaker than guard/cappy/warden. I'd gladly give up some defense for the incredible selfheal guardians currently have, thats clearly preferable for my playstyle... thats why I mostly tank with my guardian. Every tank besides guardian has a morale-bonus. I'd say its time for them to get it, too... but yea, whatever... the new version of blue beorning is still weaker than guardians in tactical defense. I dont like meatshields that require healers for everything and lotro has put so incredibly strong selfhealing into many classes throughout the last years, I sometimes even get the feeling they want to get rid of healers completely for everything besides raids... but yea, looks like beornings will be the new go-to-meatshield for physical DPS encounters in raids and 6-man-instances.
I never asked for the incredibly high mits beornings get from heavy armour either. Still, its 75%/65% mits with +20% morale versus 73%/70% mits on a guardian. The guardian has much better avoidances, higher selfheal and stronger panics and gets bonus stats for free from heavy shields.
Why would it be so bad to get ONE avoidance-based panic skill for beornings?
I'm not asking for 100% block plus stunimmunity or 100% sum-of-hard-avoidance or "I cant die" or anything like that.


And please, can you forum people one day stop misquoting me? I never said I dont raid. I just dont raid on T2c niveau. If you want to state that my opinion doesnt matter, because I just test things in smaller groups and know some things just from theory and looking at how things get done by others and reading what gets done, then state that. But stop this annoying: "you dont raid" as I never wrote that.

[Drengeir]

OK folks. It's been a busy few weeks here. I'll try and summarize the bulk of the changes I've been making to Beornings. I recently posted the final version of these changes and they'll be showing up in the next major patch. Lets begin by discussing the purpose of this revamp, as there are a few goals I wanted to achieve.


-Vastin

Im actually really happy with a lot of these changes! I had been a little disappointed to date, but there are a lot of good changes here. I do want to ask about the choices for execute? The skill feels like it may be nearly useless now that the CD has been so drastically increased, and it cannot crit, and the free proc still consumes all wrath. I feel like with a major damage buff, 2 of those 3 would be ok, but not all 3.

Also, has any work been done on any other legacies? For example, the Imbued call to the wild legacy is a real nerf compared to unimbued. The loss of the duration is not at all made up for by the increased physical mastery. Can we please nerf the amount of phys. mast. given and add duration back in?

Also, has any work be done to add more legacies? I feel like this topic has been brought up on other posts but never addressed. The lack of legacies hurts, especially because the quality of many of them (and the scaling) is so much lower than other classes. The damage legacies for Bear skills are across the board lower than every other class.

Thanks!

[jomanjy]

good to hear about most of the beorning changes but i am curious about 1 skill.... is there any change happening to expose ? right now the skill is -40% of target's mit in man form and -15% in bear form so no one would ever use that skill in bear form. also the duration is only 15s - no legacy to increase the duration - it is not good that you feel forced most of the time to switch back in bear form just to reapply that skill before you don't use your full combo or even if you are not low in wrath. so imo you should change the bear form expose and make it cost 10 wrath instead of adding 10 but refreshes the expose duartion. ( also a nerf to man form expose to 30% would be great. 40% is too op )

[zipfile]

6 points of avoidance per mainstat isnt much different to other tanks.

When it comes to a competitive advantage, yes, yes it is. Everyone is going to claw and bite for every single edge they can get.
When it comes to currently inflated numbers, one extra point counts for a ton.



These are my unbuffed stats, let's run some numbers down using this on myself and then a Beorning.
For sake of saving space, I'll post a screenshot of my Might/Agility/Vitality and the ratings they provide.



Now, let's use the same numbers in the first shot and run them down to what a Beorning would get:

• Might
  
  • Physical/Tactical Mastery: 30276
  • Block Rating: 30276
  • Parry Rating: 45414
  • Evade Rating: 15138
• Agility
  
  • Critical Rating: 8074
  • Evade Rating: 16148
  • No Parry Rating contribution
• Vitality is all the same.

Adding up the numbers, you get:
Guardian stat contributions: 116060 total

• Block: 45414
• Parry: 46424
• Evade: 24222

Beorning stat contributions: 106976 total

• Block: 30276
• Parry: 45414
• Evade: 31286

?tat contribution is pretty minor if you count in the diminishing returns that hit after 105k ratings, so this difference flats out.
Now, we can add on top something like, Guardians Ward, which with legacies totals out at 35784 ratings for 151844, but these numbers don't mean anything considering, repeat after me, diminishing returns!
But what does a Beorning get? Well....I don't know, never explored it that far or deep, but I know that they can get 30% armour and morale in Bear form, which more than makes up for the Heavy Shield (including mitigations, because 2x piece Pelennor can easily cover up the mitigations loss, and gear is hilariously easy to acquire)

And I think you know how irrelevant mainstats besides vitality are for any tank.

Stats are relevant when they're this high.

So yes, everyone that wants viable avoidance needs much more than that. And I want it as a panic-skill, not as a skill with high uptime like now. If you compare what I ask for, you could even argue, that I want to lose avoidance. Now, its 50% uptime on +10% evade. I'd be fine with 2min CD 10s duration 50% avoidance, which is less in average (4.2% vs 5%). the current version is just as annoying as wardens having to use their forcetaunt every 20s to stay at high mitigation levels.

Any real damage dealt in instances at higher difficulties will always pass through BPE or it will be morale based, something only mitigations help with. BPE helps with trash mobs, mitigations and morale help with boss, and Beorning is currently well within both realms.

new Beornings selfhealing capabilities are far weaker than guard/cappy/warden.

If any tank has to self-heal, it means something went wrong. We live in an era where heals are off the rails and recovering from a heavy hit requires no attention from the tank himself if the healer is on point.

I'd gladly give up some defense for the incredible selfheal guardians currently have, thats clearly preferable for my playstyle... thats why I mostly tank with my guardian.

Okay.

Every tank besides guardian has a morale-bonus. I'd say its time for them to get it, too...

Why? Content doesn't demand it. Other tanks should actually lose their bonuses.

but yea, whatever...

Could've shortened my response to this....

I dont like meatshields that require healers for everything and lotro has put so incredibly strong selfhealing into many classes throughout the last years, I sometimes even get the feeling they want to get rid of healers completely for everything besides raids...

bookmark

I'm not asking for 100% block plus stunimmunity or 100% sum-of-hard-avoidance or "I cant die" or anything like that.

If you're referring to Juggernaut, which became completely useless considering all the mobs and bosses have really damaging attacks that bypass BPE. Stun Immunity is useless because you'll have a Lore-Master giving it to you anyway.
Nobody has 100% avoidances, nobody has had for a while. Don't make up stuff.
''I can't die'' might refer to Last Stand, which if used, 80% of the time means wipe, because it's only delaying the inevitable.

And please, can you forum people one day stop misquoting me? I never said I dont raid. I just dont raid on T2c niveau.

return to bookmark

Okay, let me rephrase. You don't raid in a competitive environment. At lower difficulties, you can get away with not having dedicated tank classes or healers, because the damage numbers are hilariously low compared to high ends.
And reading back, I can now see where your writing comes from and at what expense.

[mrfigglesworth]

beornings will still be way behind guards in bpe and cds but way ahead in morale. guards shouldn't have much to worry about imo.

[zipfile]

beornings will still be way behind guards in bpe and cds but way ahead in morale. guards shouldn't have much to worry about imo.

On what grounds?
BPE becomes irrelevant in boss fights, considering how even bosses sneezing goes over BPE.
Cooldown reliance makes no sense because a group that does well doesn't need them and I personally cannot remember when a non-preemptive WH saved a boss fight.

[Timberfox]

Yay! Thank you, Vastin! This is a major improvement to the class. Is it perfect, of course not, but what is? Naturally, it won't please everyone, but it is still some very good work.

[Oelle]

snip

Guardians with Pledge or Juggernaut active have (or can have) 100% avoidance.
If beornings got counter as a 50% avoidance bonus, they would just be at maximum 89% avoidance and more likely far below that.

Tanks morale... well... I prefer a bigger difference between tanks and non-tank roles. imo, nontank roles shouldnt be able to survive hits that are meant to be tanked, so I prefer a bigger difference. But thats game design and not on topic here anyway.

I wont agree on selfheal being irrelevant on the levels some have it.
Good and fast selfheals makes some fights a lot more relaxing for the healer. For example glimmerdeep first boss, though its not a raid, is alot easier to heal in T3 for any healer, if the tank can help with healing. I mean, guards selfheal is easily enough to outheal glimmerdeep T2 completely, so compared to a lets say champ tank, the guard will just require far less than half of the healing from a healer. That IS a big difference. And even though there will be several healers in most raidgroups, its easier to heal, if the tank can help after bigger hits. And afaik, the biggest heals currently are just roughly 1/4 to 1/3 of the biggest tanks morale, while tanks can heal the same value.

And sure, if you get incredible amounts of anything, its relevant. Even fate is cool, if you get 10000 for free. semantics. still, if you could chose between might for tanking and any actual tankstat, you will never choose might. But still nice of you to show, that with your stats, your guard has more avoidance than a beorning has, while you stated that beornings get so much avoidance from might.

[Timberfox]

If I had to guess I'd say the thing I'm most likely to have to tweak quickly will be wrath generation/spend. It feels too generous now, esp in blue line, where it is hard to spend your wrath down even if you try.

In any case, I'm getting a number of last minute bug fixes in now to address some of those known issues before release.

-Vastin

I don't understand why this is a problem. Can we enjoy playing this class for a little while before we get nerfed into the stone age, please? We have waited sooo long!

[ENDrain]

Fourth was to bring the Beorning up to a Heavy armor spec.

So Beorning now is basically a Captain-second-in-charge, without buffs OR dps. Welcome aboard, fluffy ones.

[zipfile]

Guardians with Pledge or Juggernaut active have (or can have) 100% avoidance.
If beornings got counter as a 50% avoidance bonus, they would just be at maximum 89% avoidance and more likely far below that.

Pledge, even with legacy, won't make help you against special attacks literally every mob has. Relying on that much avoidance is moot for anything is nonsense.
Juggernaut, even if you exploit it with animation cutting throughout the entire instance, isn't going to help you when e.g. Fror decides it's time to shave away a third of your morale off, or when Karazgar feels like giving your shoulders a deconstructive surgery. Or Athramoth when she decides your high morale pool ain't worth a damn thing.
Let's not even get started on Armoured Dwarves frontal, Frost Attacks from Dwarves, Decaying napalm bombs, Fell-spirits channeled disable (making BPE irrelevant and goes over SI), Frost-horde Captains attacks, Gundabad Archer Fire-Arrows, Orc-Smiths Shattering Blow (I think that's what it's called), Gundabad Warriors Bash, Hobgoblins AOE Slicing Strike, Gundabad Trolls punts and almost all attacks they do.
Let's back up a bit more, Haradrim Marksmen Poison Arrow, Haradrim Captain/Warlord Wide Swipe, Risen Constrainers literal existance etc etc etc.

Pledge and Juggernaut have been rendered relatively useless in such encounters considering all of the above, and Redirect has been the way to go for some time now.
With Beornings being able to reach around 100k BPE ratings before even minor diminishing returns happen, with having extra armour and morale with pretty much permanent Bear form, it'll be a dream to see how game evolves till spring.
To rephrase, getting to 100k in any rating is more than enough already for trash encounters, because anything aside, higher numbers become irrelevant.
Also, mobs have avoidance penetration buffs and their own finesse values, further degrading BPE ratings, but sure.

I wont agree on selfheal being irrelevant on the levels some have it.

I don't ask you to agree, you stick to your point like a needle under a nail and I'll stick to mine.
Also, Recuperate is pretty damn good from what can be seen behind the curtains, but posting about it here warrants a ban and I'm not inclined to one of those.

Good and fast selfheals makes some fights a lot more relaxing for the healer.

Which is his job, nobody elses. Healer stresses about heals, DPS stresses about parses, Buff/debuff stresses about timings and tanks stress about positioning and aggro. There's no making it easy/hard for anyone if people do the right job, properly.

For example glimmerdeep first boss, though its not a raid, is alot easier to heal in T3 for any healer, if the tank can help with healing.

Glimmerdeep's not a proper instance, it's a stretched out weekly quest for 250 embers and some gear.

I mean, guards selfheal is easily enough to outheal glimmerdeep T2 completely

In all my runs, I've not seen a single tank that needed heals on T2 Glimmerdeep. Yes, this included chanks I ran with. Again, Glimmerdeep is a joke of an instance and cannot be held to any standard of older, on level instances.

so compared to a lets say champ tank, the guard will just require far less than half of the healing from a healer. That IS a big difference.

So, you brought a healer into an instance to do what? Put on follow and hope for loot? Any tank line is currently capable of tanking Ered Mithrin instances, with exception of Thrumfall and Beornings, but they're by far the best healers in that one.

And even though there will be several healers in most raidgroups, its easier to heal, if the tank can help after bigger hits. And afaik, the biggest heals currently are just roughly 1/4 to 1/3 of the biggest tanks morale, while tanks can heal the same value.

Clearly, you haven't been in Anvil on Bullroarer when nobody's morale bar even budged aside from the tanking captains.

And sure, if you get incredible amounts of anything, its relevant. Even fate is cool, if you get 10000 for free. semantics. still, if you could chose between might for tanking and any actual tankstat, you will never choose might. But still nice of you to show, that with your stats, your guard has more avoidance than a beorning has, while you stated that beornings get so much avoidance from might.

I'd love to see what's incredible about any stats...or even mine. Setup I use the classic as it can be, balanced approach for tanking anything.
And currently, Beornings will outperform in that area, while still having a pretty damn good healing line.

[Casmond]

I think maybe the people who will be most unhappy about the Red Tree Bear changes will be the Red Tree Champions. They just saw a big furry truck pass them on the highway. Guardians, Wardens and Cappys just smirked, because a Blue Tree Bear won't be able to aggro mobs for any length of time (12 seconds un-enhanced) and the cooldown (even with the legacy) is 45 seconds is memory serves. So, not a tank...a support staff "tank." Yellow Tree? Heh...are we really going to release on the Middle Earfers a Heavy Armor Healer? Cool. The Minstrel and Runie Unions are preparing their Summons and Complaints as we speak.

Slice it any way your want it...it really is a competition between classes in the end. And, players get really (uncomfortably) attached to their chosen toons.

That being said, I'm looking forward to trying this out. It will be a nice change of pace...and it will be fun to compare DPS stats between now and when this goes live. I appreciate the focus and the work you put into this, Vastin. You aren't going to make everyone happy. But, I think you approached this properly, and as fairly as possible. Cheers!

[Aelbryht]

*Snip*

-Vastin

Thanks Vastin, that's a much more comprehensive set of changes than I think anyone was expecting when you made your first post in the revamp thread. Reading through it all was quite amusing as it seemed a lot like buff after buff after buff, with not much in the way of nerfs to counter them...so it'll be interesting to see what you've unleashed with Beorning 2.0.

It'd be great if you could clarify a few things though:

Composure - Since it isn't mentioned explicitly, has the cooldown change been reverted? i.e. back to 14 seconds again?

Sacrifice - You previously mentioned this would become available in both man and bear form, is that still the case? Does it run for the full 20 second duration as expected?

Animalistic - With the shift in bear form wrath generation, is this now increasing wrath gained every 3 seconds? It might make more sense to instead tie some form of active effect to it which carries a significant wrath cost. A 15% reflect perhaps? In reality though...maybe something that ties in to Guarded Attack since that skill becomes quite redundant once you have unlocked the bonus trait Defensively Minded. Like spend 50-100 wrath to allow Guarded Attack to temporarily refresh the duration of one or several of our other defensive buffs: Assertive Roar, Counter, Vigilant/Thunderous Roar and Thickened Hide.

Call To Wild - In a similar vein to the above, +5/-5 to wrath generators/spenders maybe isn't that suitable a bonus any more? It could be a good chance to add in some more involved interaction with our other skills since the red trait line in particular is a pretty sparse affair. You get half as many new active skills as you do in blue and yellow and it certainly shows. My own feeling is that it would be nice to see some more red line emphasis placed on the interplay and damage potential of our roars and other tactical skills but anything that requires more of us in the way of thought and planning would be welcome.

[Joedangod]

...

Beornings will take less physical damage than Guardians unless redirect is up. Beornings will take more tactical damage than Guardians.

Beornings will support the group better in terms of offensive buffs whilst guardians are slightly stronger defensively buffing. The phys mit debuff is slightly too powerful but they can’t remove it until they nerf the fire mit debuffs.

Guardians win in terms of panic skills. Whilst hide is better than anything a Guardian has besides litany or that moors shield it’s also the Beornings only panic skill.

Guardians have better incoming healing on average (race of man OP), that legacy-that-doesn’t-behave-like-any-other-legacy keeps things fairly balanced on this front.

Guardians have better avoidances.

Beornings are significantly easier to play.

That last point is the real problem with allowing blue to compete as a tank. The rest is borderline balanced due to that legacy not giving Beornings incoming healing equivalent to half a yellow captain.

[Joedangod]

Yellow will need nerfs though. You gave the tankiest healer 10% extra mitigation’s after all.

[Antophant]

I think maybe the people who will be most unhappy about the Red Tree Bear changes will be the Red Tree Champions.

Unless Vastin sneaks in massive damage buffs last minute for red line or didn't list everything changed Red Champs have nothing to fear,
the normalization of skill damage was at best a 20% DPS gain but that was without the nerf to vicious claw cooldown and possible useless state of Execute.

Will have to wait and see but my bets are on Red Champ being well ahead in DPS still.

[Casmond]

Unless Vastin sneaks in massive damage buffs last minute for red line or didn't list everything changed Red Champs have nothing to fear,
the normalization of skill damage was at best a 20% DPS gain but that was without the nerf to vicious claw cooldown and possible useless state of Execute.

Will have to wait and see but my bets are on Red Champ being well ahead in DPS still.

Maybe...tbh, my red champ is kind of casual. I have no idea what a fully geared red tree champ dps's. My red tree Bear is parsing out just over 20k right now. I expect that to increase significantly since I will be spending a lot more time in bear form and only going into man form for a self-heal and timing that with Execute. Plus the Thrash/Slash skin change is not only giving you an extra hit, it is building wrath in the process. Essentially, a +60% melee damage since you are going to be living in bear form if you can get the skill rotation down.

On paper, I think a red tree bear will surpass Red Tree champ...and definitely be less fragile.

Addendum: The other little hidden dps boost will come from Wrathful which gives you up to 15% increase on critical hits. Now that building wrath will be so much easier (yet to be confirmed) you are going to have a much higher critical hit chance...which I don't have to tell you makes a major difference on Red Tree in this class. Wrathful fully maxed in bear form is an avalanche of damage.

[Happychappy]

Yellow will need nerfs though. You gave the tankiest healer 10% extra mitigation’s after all.

If they nerf healing, then the Beorning will just be overlooked as a healer again. They should have stayed medium armour with agility main stat and some decent buffs to blue line tbh. But i think you agree on this.

I just hope they don't start making a viable trait line none viable due to heavy armour.

[Oelle]

Pledge, even with legacy, won't make help you against special attacks literally every mob has. Relying on that much avoidance is moot for anything is nonsense.
Juggernaut, even if you exploit it with animation cutting throughout the entire instance, isn't going to help you when e.g. Fror decides it's time to shave away a third of your morale off, or when Karazgar feels like giving your shoulders a deconstructive surgery. Or Athramoth when she decides your high morale pool ain't worth a damn thing.
Let's not even get started on Armoured Dwarves frontal, Frost Attacks from Dwarves, Decaying napalm bombs, Fell-spirits channeled disable (making BPE irrelevant and goes over SI), Frost-horde Captains attacks, Gundabad Archer Fire-Arrows, Orc-Smiths Shattering Blow (I think that's what it's called), Gundabad Warriors Bash, Hobgoblins AOE Slicing Strike, Gundabad Trolls punts and almost all attacks they do.
Let's back up a bit more, Haradrim Marksmen Poison Arrow, Haradrim Captain/Warlord Wide Swipe, Risen Constrainers literal existance etc etc etc.

Pledge and Juggernaut have been rendered relatively useless in such encounters considering all of the above, and Redirect has been the way to go for some time now.
With Beornings being able to reach around 100k BPE ratings before even minor diminishing returns happen, with having extra armour and morale with pretty much permanent Bear form, it'll be a dream to see how game evolves till spring.
To rephrase, getting to 100k in any rating is more than enough already for trash encounters, because anything aside, higher numbers become irrelevant.
Also, mobs have avoidance penetration buffs and their own finesse values, further degrading BPE ratings, but sure.

When you write all of that...
On which point does that mean, that it would be bad, if beornings had an evasive panic-skill with counter?

I suggested, Counter should be a panic, instead of a high-uptime-small-buff.
You reacted with "NO, Never, thats OP" and explained, why avoidance-panics are very weak?
Doesnt make sense to me.

I'll repeat: Counter should have 2min CD, 10s Duration and give +50% Avoidance (whether that be evade, block or parry, I dont care).
The effect, that counter is required for counterdefense should be deleted/permanently active.
Counterdefense should NOT give wrath, but instead do something viable for tanking. Currently, its just singletarget irrelevantly small amount of damage and gives wrath. With the changes in wrath, the wrath part should be nerfed, but then the only good part left is, that its quite fast. Still, a fast attack that deals a tiny amount of damage is good for nothing. It should either be meaningful and help with threat or AoE or do any kind of buff/debuff stuff.

For Comparison: Currently, Counter is 20s duration, 40s CD and gives +10% evade and unlocks "if any attack was evaded, you can use counterattack (twice)".