Beorning Update Incoming

[Pfeifenkraut]

I'm definitely looking over the suggestions here for a polish pass, so thanks for the feedback!

I'll look at whether it makes sense to fold the speed buff into basic bear form and remove the specific wanderlust form. The speed buff cancels in combat regardless, so that might work technically, but there are a few other factors I need to consider behind the scenes before I do that.

As for wrath, the change I made to base wrath burn vs. generation in bear form actually shouldn't have made as big a difference as we're seeing - it's mostly just a convenience benefit and a minor wrath bonus in combat. More significant in blue line obviously, but still really only amounts to a total difference of 2 wrath/sec.

Thrash generating wrath obviously makes a pretty big difference and perhaps the two together are sufficient to explain the much higher wrath generation - but I'm still dubious. I think there's another source or bonus that I overlooked that got buffed by one of my changes that I need to re-examine, because yeah, the wrath REALLY floods in during combat. I fixed a bunch of bugs with other skills not benefiting correctly from things like legacy wrath bonuses, so maybe all together it is just adding up too much.

I don't want to choke it off mind you, but I do want wrath to remain a real consideration when you're trying to decide how to run your rotations, and when/how often you break out into man-form for faster generation, or whether you're willing to suck it up and stick with thrash and other bear form generation mechanisms like CotW - but right now you mostly just don't care very much, and that's not quite where I want it.

-Vastin

Yes, please do put Wanderlust in bear form, that would be so much more smooth to use! Also, it would be nice if the different form icons looked different in some way, even if it were just a different colour.

I definitely get too much wrath as opposed to how quickly I am able to use wrath. But other than a full red bar, it isn't making me more powerful. I still solo faster on my Minstrel, Hunter, and Runekeeper.

Being able to stay in bear form is amazing! Form changes should be a choice, not a constant necessity (which is really, really annoying). However things end up, whatever tweaks you have to make or power level Beornings are, I will play my Beorning if I can mostly stay a bear, and I'll abandon it again if it goes back to constant bear-man-bear-man spam.

Thanks for all your work on this!

[JiiPee]

Much like you calling out other people who don't tank and then claiming Beornings have no AOE skills to grab aggro?

They do but nothing superior like guardian godlike war-chant with 20m range/radius and 8 targets. Or shield-taunt with 10m range/radius, however thats only 4 targets but everything matters and both are 10sec cd.

Then lets see beorning... Claw-swipe (3sec cd, burns wrath) and biting-edge (13sec cd, builds wrath) with 5m range/radius and 5 targets. Not to forgot that biting-edge is one of the force taunts what you may not wanna blow up for initial aggro. So we are back to claw-swipe and again it's just 5m range/radius. And no, maul is not something awesome. It will root you still if you wanna do full channel and it's force taunt (Very good if you need to pull mobs from other tank) and long cd. Oh and did I mention that maul is also 5m range?

So we are really left again with that claw-swipe and 5m range/radius and did I mention already 5 targets?

I don't also understand why you seems to be so negative that hoods is getting new sherif? Sure there will still be jobs for guardians, beornings are not going to replace guardians because guardians are still superior most of the situations.

Do you even play beorning? At least you do not seems to understand much about beornings but still you keep commenting here, sorry to say but stupid things. It's kinda like you have some agenda that you want this beorning change to fail. Like I said, beornings is not going to replace guardians.

BTW, I can showoff also playtimes:

Beorning
You have been playing for: 2 months 3 days 22 hours 43 minutes 19 seconds

Guardian
You have been playing for: 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours 53 minutes 9 seconds

Warden
You have been playing for: 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours 25 minutes 47 seconds

Hunter
You have been playing for: 5 months 4 days 14 hours 19 minutes 7 seconds

Lore-Master
You have been playing for: 3 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours 28 minutes 57 seconds

Want me keep going? There is still 5 classes left and yes I also have them. So you may know guardian, but I know them all. Not saying that I know them inside out, every little secrets of every class but I know them enough to know where they are good, how they works and where they are not good. And no, I am not trying to say that I am best player, I just know all classes.

[zipfile]

They do but nothing superior like guardian godlike war-chant with 20m range/radius and 8 targets. Or shield-taunt with 10m range/radius, however thats only 4 targets but everything matters and both are 10sec cd.

Damage multiplier on either hadn't been scaled since 105 days. War-chant at least scales somewhat with main-hand damage, but shield-taunt is as reliable as giving scissors to Parkinsons patient and telling them to cut snowflakes.
So, no, neither of those are reliable, as a single Raging Blades of a Champ, ROA of a Hunter etc. would immediately cause them to move away.

Then lets see beorning... Claw-swipe (3sec cd, burns wrath) and biting-edge (13sec cd, builds wrath) with 5m range/radius and 5 targets. Not to forgot that biting-edge is one of the force taunts what you may not wanna blow up for initial aggro. So we are back to claw-swipe and again it's just 5m range/radius. And no, maul is not something awesome. It will root you still if you wanna do full channel and it's force taunt (Very good if you need to pull mobs from other tank) and long cd. Oh and did I mention that maul is also 5m range?

Yesteday, I had a Beorning tank Storvagun. Pull and gather time on the adds, while not exactly as quickly as on a Guardian, still seemed pretty damn good and nobody was in any danger from them. Yes, this is extended to the last part where Ancient Snow Beasts respawn.
Clearly, he must've unlocked the secret.

So we are really left again with that claw-swipe and 5m range/radius and did I mention already 5 targets?

So, an extra target Shield-Taunt with half the range, which I'd much rather take than 4 targets 10m range. And a DOT on top free of charge. Thank you.

I don't also understand why you seems to be so negative that hoods is getting new sherif? Sure there will still be jobs for guardians, beornings are not going to replace guardians because guardians are still superior most of the situations.

Much like Hunters were upset when RKs were pulling ahead, what else does a Guardian do other than tank? Beornings are by far the superior healers already to Minstrels and only rivalled by Rune-keepers, who got the bonus of damage reductions. If the only role Guardians have is being contested so heavily, you'll see the discouragement to play a Guardian when Beornings can dual role so easily.
Weren't you upset a few ago about Rune-Keepers outperforming Hunters? Isn't this an ironic twist.*

Do you even play beorning? At least you do not seems to understand much about beornings but still you keep commenting here, sorry to say but stupid things. It's kinda like you have some agenda that you want this beorning change to fail. Like I said, beornings is not going to replace guardians.

Yes, I have. My Beorning, while forgotten, did see some heals in COS T2C during the farming days of LVL 115, when there were plenty of Arias to throw away. Made pretty much from necessity to overcome gearing grind.
Also, I've seen what a capable Beorning can manage and it's horrifying given the current state of how trait trees work. If every trait tree was a role and we cast away the old system of how classes were designed, then nobody would or should care. But as it stands, this is endangering the only role a class has.

BTW, I can showoff also playtimes:

Beorning
You have been playing for: 2 months 3 days 22 hours 43 minutes 19 seconds

Guardian
You have been playing for: 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours 53 minutes 9 seconds

Warden
You have been playing for: 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours 25 minutes 47 seconds

Hunter
You have been playing for: 5 months 4 days 14 hours 19 minutes 7 seconds

Lore-Master
You have been playing for: 3 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours 28 minutes 57 seconds

Want me keep going? There is still 5 classes left and yes I also have them. So you may know guardian, but I know them all. Not saying that I know them inside out, every little secrets of every class but I know them enough to know where they are good, how they works and where they are not good. And no, I am not trying to say that I am best player, I just know all classes.

Weird flex, but ok.
Clearly you missed the point why I posted the playtime, so I suggest you read Pavlins response.
*Nice to see your most showcased playtime is a Hunter.

[Menegris]

Dear friend. First can i suggest you to NOT give feedbacks and bad ideas until you know the class.
Wrath potions ? Hello ?
Red beor can fight in bear for without need to switch to human from very often? Hello ?
In red bear you have one resource generating skill with decent dmg / but no more than that/ (Thrash), one bleed which you aply no more than 1 per 13 seconds (bash), one 30 seconds cd execute /which you need to use at full wrath/ and bees every 12 seconds. If you use Relentles maul for ST is fine, stil 30 sec cd skil.
So after you aply this rotation you have like 10 seconds thrash spam until you have your dots ready to reaply.
So far so good. As you say you dont need to switch to human form often. But you do. All skills i mention so far, will let you do less dmg than yellow cpt / if you use only them in rotation. Every fight you start with expose /human form skill only/ then you do 3 times thrash and aply all bear from skills i mentioned. Then you hit thrash again/ to keep it 3 stack/ then Slash / which move you to human form/ then biting edge to aply those jucy bleeds, then back to bear form and repeat.
You need to switch to human EVERY 15 seconds to keep your expose buff up / -40% target`s mitigation/

So 15 sec is not very often ?
And again, learn your class better. Then give advices. Some devs have bad habit to listen to all posts in the forums, picking the worse ones. And we dont want that do we...

Cheers.

If you read my post more attentively you can see that i was talking about previos situation, not live update. And thanks for sharing your rotation, i am sure its very usefull even if your discription seems a little bit messy^^

[ColMcStacky]

I just want to leave a bit of feedback regarding tanking, as it's mostly what I've been doing on my Beorning since the update. Honestly, it feels great. I'm really happy with how it is currently, but I'd like to caution against nerfing the Wrath regen in bear-form. As it stands now (and how it was in the past), bear-form is superior to man-form while tanking mostly because of the morale/armour buffs, but also because of the skills available. Nowadays, not only can we stay in bear-form almost indefinitely while tanking (only dropping to man-form to re-up Guarded Attack when we get unlocky with procs), but we have enough Wrath regen to actually have a nice skill rotation in bear-form. Before, we couldn't use our skills because we had to maintain Wrath. Now, this isn't an issue in the least, mostly due to the change of Thrash giving 5 Wrath. I think it would be a benefit to keep this, at least in blue line. I'd hate to have to AFK tank again to conserve Wrath.

They do but nothing superior like guardian godlike war-chant with 20m range/radius and 8 targets. Or shield-taunt with 10m range/radius, however thats only 4 targets but everything matters and both are 10sec cd.

Then lets see beorning... Claw-swipe (3sec cd, burns wrath) and biting-edge (13sec cd, builds wrath) with 5m range/radius and 5 targets. Not to forgot that biting-edge is one of the force taunts what you may not wanna blow up for initial aggro. So we are back to claw-swipe and again it's just 5m range/radius. And no, maul is not something awesome. It will root you still if you wanna do full channel and it's force taunt (Very good if you need to pull mobs from other tank) and long cd. Oh and did I mention that maul is also 5m range?

So we are really left again with that claw-swipe and 5m range/radius and did I mention already 5 targets?

It's true that Beornings have limited range on their skills (most are 5m, Thunderous Roar is 10m, Vigilant Roar is 30m), but honestly it isn't much of an issue in my experience. And we don't need anything like Shield Bash or War-Chant because our two main taunts in bear-form actually have threat reflects attached to them that last 14s, so you can have a permanent uptime on it. Even with less "traditional" agro generating skills, bears are swimming in threat to the point where I can't lose something if I try. Honestly, I think it may be a bit too strong. It may help if the reflect is only attached to Thunderous Roar and not Vigilant Roar so that way it stays as more of a threat cooldown. It just seems overpowered to me to have a permanent threat reflect up on a tank with such an availability of taunts.

Personally, I don't even trait the Biting Edge taunt anymore. We don't need it. And even still, it seems like either Biting Edge or Guarded Attack (not sure which yet) has a threat modifier attached to it, where just using it holds a boss for longer than it should before even using a taunt.

Do you even play beorning? At least you do not seems to understand much about beornings but still you keep commenting here, sorry to say but stupid things. It's kinda like you have some agenda that you want this beorning change to fail. Like I said, beornings is not going to replace guardians.

I have to say that at the very least I agree with his point in that Beorning tanks are probably a bit too overpowered, but not so much his way of approaching the discussion. Not that I don't like it mind you; we have been underpowered for nearly 5 years now, it'd be nice if we have a few months to shine before we are more balanced. But for trash pulls, I would say that Beorning is at least on-par with Guards. We have more phys mits, less tact mits and cooldowns, and better threat generation as far as I can tell, however you value those components. On single target boss fights though, I think we become overpowered because we can forgo traiting Thunderous Roar and Thickened Hide, and instead dip far enough into yellow to grab an in-combat rez. I'm honestly not too thrilled about Captains having this while tanking, especially in conjunction with Last Stand (although that's a discussion for another thread), but having another tank capable of having an in-combat rez (albeit at a high cost) is not something that I believe will benefit class balance in the long run.

[Pavlin]

I have to say that at the very least I agree with his point in that Beorning tanks are probably a bit too overpowered, but not so much his way of approaching the discussion. Not that I don't like it mind you; we have been underpowered for nearly 5 years now, it'd be nice if we have a few months to shine before we are more balanced. But for trash pulls, I would say that Beorning is at least on-par with Guards. We have more phys mits, less tact mits and cooldowns, and better threat generation as far as I can tell, however you value those components. On single target boss fights though, I think we become overpowered because we can forgo traiting Thunderous Roar and Thickened Hide, and instead dip far enough into yellow to grab an in-combat rez. I'm honestly not too thrilled about Captains having this while tanking, especially in conjunction with Last Stand (although that's a discussion for another thread), but having another tank capable of having an in-combat rez (albeit at a high cost) is not something that I believe will benefit class balance in the long run.

How we are OP when we are way /stil/ below cpt and guard ? And even below wrd if we speak about trash/kite tanking?
Easy to keep agro on what ? On ST ? I agree with you, but only if you tank it toe to toe. When it comes to kite you have nothing outside one 10 sec cd / 5 sec force duration/ taunt, and one skill at 75 seconds cd.
Going to the bottom of the yellow only for one battle ress will kill you as a tank. Simply not worth it. You sacrafice both utility and mitigations.
Here is the build i run now https://imgur.com/a/sukYdiO
I do swith to hearten sometimes but i prefer stampede because it help me kite when i need and in the same time helps my fellows stay on the target + is overal good to have increase speed even for casual instances.
Hardened heat point is useless but i have no where to pui it anyway. Same as oposite pressence/ i hardly switch to human form to use it for agro grabing but is good to have.

With proper swipe menagment weakenning blow can be skiped/ as i did, because is human form too and is rarely used. I dont see the reason we have assertive roar/ 10% hp for 10 seconds after we use useless skill in human form ? why???
Thunderous roar is a must for aoe agro grabing. Outside that you have rellentles maul but is mele range and make you statick/ cant chanel it on move.
Thickened hide sinergy verry well with the 15% morale shield we get from shake free from yellow line / i mostly use as a shield than a break to be honest"

Take down is usefull when you need to stun single mobs/ helps you save lumber from red + aoe skill fro multy target stun.

Even with cd increased vicious claws + rending blows make us the best induction interupters in the game right now. This helps dps focus on damage instead of keeping mind on boss/add casts. I do even take rending blows when play red. Having 2 interupts is nice. And fate/yellow line/ provide some nice crit chanse and some mits.
Tested many builds over the years and i find this more suitable for my play stile.
And yes i go deep in red to get that % morale heal but is hardly worth it tbh. Now when we have heavy armor and we can stack both hearten/if needed/ and recuperate/ extra heal is not nesesery. And we dont want healers to die of boredoom
So yes, imo blue just need revoke on aoe range taunt. Atm feels we have none.
And again, great job so far Vastin. Now we feel like propper class.

[camenecium]

Second [...] is simply to make the core play cycle of the class smoother and more entertaining.

My beorning is not my main, and I play him mostly for questing, exploring, and some light group content. For me, the class is indeed smoother and more entertaining. I'm looking forward to the polish cycle and will probably start a new bear to relearn the class once it's released. Here's what I think after a few hours on my current bear:

Wanderlust is something I've wanted since Day One, so I'm very happy to have it. I'll echo others in saying that three stances is probably not the ideal solution. I think having separate toggles, one for bear/man form and one for Wanderlust is best: I liked having one key to hit to change form and would hope we get this back. I'd prefer Wanderlust to work like Hunter's Find The Path instead of Warden's Forced March, so I can turn it on when I'm solo or with a group of other beornings and just leave it on. I definitely don't want to have to turn it back on after every kill on the landscape; the current behavior where I have to manually toggle into regular bear-form or man-form when I'm unexpectedly attacked on the landscape is not ideal either. I also want to be able to turn it off so I'm not running ahead of others when casually grouping and in bear-form. Classes have been getting their toggles/stances earlier and would like to see Wanderlust available sooner, if not from Level 1. Since it's Christmas, maybe an unlock (maybe replacing an existing class trait like Feral Presence) that bumps the speed up to average horse? :cow eyes:

Wrath Mechanics overall feel better--and completely different. I can start and end fights as a bear in landscape now, where before I rarely had enough time to build wrath and change without going out of my way to pull multiple mobs. Wrath is now something you have and choose to spend while considering what you might need to do in 20-30 seconds. I understand that some people really like the swapping back and forth that the old wrath mechanic required, but honestly I found it tedious and de-emphasized why I wanted the class in the first place--being a bear. One bear's trash is another bear's lunch. (OK, all bears like eating trash and pic-a-nic baskets, but you know what I mean.) I do think, as others have mentioned, that man-form needs to find a new draw since it no longer has the monopoly on wrath generation and since bear-form is persistent, perhaps as an off-healer with one or two cross-line heal/buff skills? That would make it more appealing to swap to man in groups while still roaming the wilds solo as a bear.

Skill Bar Management has gotten a little more complicated in Blue and Yellow, or maybe I just didn't play in them enough to notice it before. One thing that draws me to the class is the Goldilocks number of skills: It's a nice break from my lore-master's skill-a-palooza! So I spent more than a half hour putting my skill bars back together for each line (partly because of line-switching cooldown, ugh) and didn't get to a happy place. I like to have the trait-line-specific any-form skills on both form's main bars and in the same positions, and that's just barely possible as long as I don't add skills from other lines. I wonder if one or two skills should leave bear form and go to man form in blue and yellow, both for skill bar balance and to make man form more appealing overall--not sure which, just a feeling. To reiterate from Wanderlust, as a keyboard player I really prefer a single skill to toggle combat man/bear forms. I've tried using the two gateway skills to switch forms in combat, but it just doesn't work smoothly with the blue and yellow lines filling up the main skill bar compared to red; it requires a key-chord. Especially now, having the single-skill toggle back on my 'H' key would be great since almost all form transitions are voluntary now.

Red Line just doesn't have enough skills in either form, unlike the other lines, so ideally I'd like to see one more skill for general rotation and one as a minor finisher when I'm not quite ready to commit to Execute and its cooldown. (This isn't really a new problem.) That said, I do find myself using Execute more freely since it won't force me out of bear-form. It could have a little quicker cooldown if we're can't get some kind of minor finisher. This is probably beyond your polish iteration but should be on the next cycle. A bleed version of Claw Swipe might be nice to get some more AOE into red bear form. Maybe it could be a finisher with results scaling based on current Wrath.

Dual Wielding is still something I'd like to see despite the (ahem) implementation details. TBH, it's a bit of a cosmetic preference for me with dual-wielding daggers in man-form feeling more bearish than a giant sword or club, i.e., fighting with "claws" and roars in both forms. Of course, I am not willing to give up the DPS for that look right now!

[JiiPee]

Damage multiplier on either hadn't been scaled since 105 days. War-chant at least scales somewhat with main-hand damage, but shield-taunt is as reliable as giving scissors to Parkinsons patient and telling them to cut snowflakes.
So, no, neither of those are reliable, as a single Raging Blades of a Champ, ROA of a Hunter etc. would immediately cause them to move away.

All matters and you may forget that usually at least I will continue shield-taunt with shield-smash. So not only it does quite good damage, it stuns for 3sec and also does interruption. Now that 3 sec gives you time do do few more of many guardian AOE skills. When mobs gets out of stun, you may actually have already redirect up so even more initial aggro for you when they start to hammer you and you reflect damage. (Yes beorning HAD reflect but doesn't have anymore)

If your dps is that stupid that they do not allow you do build at least little aggro, then they deserve to die. Because of challenge change, dps need to play smart, same as guardian.

Yesteday, I had a Beorning tank Storvagun. Pull and gather time on the adds, while not exactly as quickly as on a Guardian, still seemed pretty damn good and nobody was in any danger from them. Yes, this is extended to the last part where Ancient Snow Beasts respawn.
Clearly, he must've unlocked the secret.

As you pointed out, guardian does that job better. I haven't tanked at 120 with my beorning, don't have gear. But I used to tank at 100 and 105 cap quite much, also tanked some 2 dps cos runs with my beorning. It sure isn't as easy to play like guardian when you need to pick up mobs from here and from there, before changes there was at least short cd OP thunderous roar to pick stuff. (Yes that skill was ridiculous OP and it had to go, now it's much better, not saying it's perfect but it's better than it was)

So, an extra target Shield-Taunt with half the range, which I'd much rather take than 4 targets 10m range. And a DOT on top free of charge. Thank you.

You know, that dot sure is game changer. /s
I'm quite sure that shield-taunt followed with shield-smash is better duo than claw-swipe initial + bleed + weak outgoing damage debuff. (That debuff tanks mastery, thats why it's weak)
Specially against mobs what are not immune to CC, that 3sec stun from smash gives you precious time. Time to build more initial aggro, time to hold mobs little longer before you gotta blow your challenge CD.
Beorning gotta keep running from mob to mob spamming claw-swipe to get them grouped, only when mobs are grouped you can pop example maul what gives you 5sec and if mobs are going to run away after that, you pop thunderous roar and then you should have them.

Much like Hunters were upset when RKs were pulling ahead, what else does a Guardian do other than tank? Beornings are by far the superior healers already to Minstrels and only rivalled by Rune-keepers, who got the bonus of damage reductions. If the only role Guardians have is being contested so heavily, you'll see the discouragement to play a Guardian when Beornings can dual role so easily.
Weren't you upset a few ago about Rune-Keepers outperforming Hunters? Isn't this an ironic twist.*

Yes, RK's should not do more ST dps. Hunter should be top dog when it comes to ST and we are again getting there, wrong direction.
Beorning however is not going to make guardian jobless. Guardian simply is still superior because of better cd's and better base avoidance. Only where beorning gets small adventage is phys mitigation if both goes to 290k (New T3 cap).
Beorning will be most likely wanted mostly as healer, so nothing for guardian to worry about. Cappies should be worried because I think beorning can be quite strong offtank now because better mits and you can trait combat rezz to blue line if you are ready to give up thunderous roar and thickened hide.

Also, I've seen what a capable Beorning can manage and it's horrifying given the current state of how trait trees work. If every trait tree was a role and we cast away the old system of how classes were designed, then nobody would or should care. But as it stands, this is endangering the only role a class has.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of trait trees. In my opinion there should be a cap how much points we can spend to trait trees, or secondary tree should cost 3 points so we cannot reach bottom from secondary tree.
Trait trees makes some classes benefit much more from trait points, example hunter could prolly use like 50 points more and gain more dps. When RK as example don't gain like no dps after 70 points, maybe accurate number is even less.

So can we look how this beorning change goes? I don't think there is yet enough data available to show that guardians are now useless and I highly doubt that guardians are in any danger.

[zipfile]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of trait trees. In my opinion there should be a cap how much points we can spend to trait trees, or secondary tree should cost 3 points so we cannot reach bottom from secondary tree.
Trait trees makes some classes benefit much more from trait points, example hunter could prolly use like 50 points more and gain more dps. When RK as example don't gain like no dps after 70 points, maybe accurate number is even less.

So can we look how this beorning change goes? I don't think there is yet enough data available to show that guardians are now useless and I highly doubt that guardians are in any danger.

On this I agree.

[camenecium]

It's true that Beornings have limited range on their skills (most are 5m, Thunderous Roar is 10m, Vigilant Roar is 30m), but honestly it isn't much of an issue in my experience.

I haven't really paid attention to skill range limits, but I wonder if increasing it a little on the low end would help with visual clipping. When I'm going bear-on-bear on the landscape, we tend to be embedded in each other for most of the fight.

[ColMcStacky]

How we are OP when we are way /stil/ below cpt and guard ? And even below wrd if we speak about trash/kite tanking?

30% armour buff, 20% morale buff, 75% Physical Mitigations, 65% Tactical Mitigations, permanent threat reflect and +7.5% Incoming Healing, more taunts than any other tank on shorter cooldowns as well, +15% incoming damage debuff, -15% Physical Mitigation debuff. When it comes to cooldown skills, Thickened Hide is a very strong one, albeit our only one. What is not OP about Beornings currently? How are we still below Guard tanks? I guess Cappies because of Last Stand, Shield of the Dunedain, insane Incoming Healing and Incoming Damage Reduction buffs, but our toolkit doesn't really compete with Cappies. Beornings are probably going to be competing with Guards as maintanks, and other than having 5% more Tactical Mitigation and more cooldowns, I don't see what Guards bring to the table over Beornings at the moment.

Easy to keep agro on what ? On ST ? I agree with you, but only if you tank it toe to toe. When it comes to kite you have nothing outside one 10 sec cd / 5 sec force duration/ taunt, and one skill at 75 seconds cd.

Easy to keep agro in any situation, even if threat-wipes are a mechanic. Why would kiting be any worse than on Guard? not only do we have a 30m range single target taunt, and a 45s (not 75s, if you use legacy) 10m 10-target taunt, but we also get a permanent threat reflect which will maintain agro on every single thing that attacks us, even if we aren't taunting them all. On top of that, we get 50% uptime on both +25% run speed and +10% Evade chance, which helps for kiting too. And even then, I don't think we should support kiting anyway, as it really is just annoying more than anything.

Going to the bottom of the yellow only for one battle ress will kill you as a tank. Simply not worth it. You sacrafice both utility and mitigations.
Here is the build i run now https://imgur.com/a/sukYdiO
I do swith to hearten sometimes but i prefer stampede because it help me kite when i need and in the same time helps my fellows stay on the target + is overal good to have increase speed even for casual instances.
Hardened heat point is useless but i have no where to pui it anyway. Same as oposite pressence/ i hardly switch to human form to use it for agro grabing but is good to have.

I think if you tried out these AoE tank and single target tank traitlines, it may help a little bit more maybe. The latter isn't for all single target encounters, mind you; only when you know you won't need Thunderous Roar and you think you can get away without Thickened Hide. You really don't sacrifice utility or mitigations to trait either one of these lines, as you have nearly everything that both blue and yellow offer in both traitlines.

[Pavlin]

30% armour buff, 20% morale buff, 75% Physical Mitigations, 65% Tactical Mitigations, permanent threat reflect and +7.5% Incoming Healing, more taunts than any other tank on shorter cooldowns as well, +15% incoming damage debuff, -15% Physical Mitigation debuff. When it comes to cooldown skills, Thickened Hide is a very strong one, albeit our only one. What is not OP about Beornings currently? How are we still below Guard tanks? I guess Cappies because of Last Stand, Shield of the Dunedain, insane Incoming Healing and Incoming Damage Reduction buffs, but our toolkit doesn't really compete with Cappies. Beornings are probably going to be competing with Guards as maintanks, and other than having 5% more Tactical Mitigation and more cooldowns, I don't see what Guards bring to the table over Beornings at the moment.

You are stuborn or just cant see it ? We have little more phisical than guard but like 10% less tactical. Taunts ? Which one you mean ? 1 at 10 sec cd. Ok. Name others.
Threat reflect become useless when you kite and not get hits. Guard and cpt have increase healing recieve too. Thinkened hide is MEH compared to both guard and cpt defensives. And is on 3 min cd.... Self heals ? close to zero, compared to ALL tanks. One nice 15% meat shield if you go down to get it from yellow line.

Beo wont replace guardian or captain, atleast not at this patch.
And i`m curious where you get such impresions ? Read them somewhere / world chat/ or you tested it yourself ? I`l be happy to know.
Because is one thing to bring papper facts, another one to test it and see how it feels in real.
The way you say +20% morale its like only we have it? All thanks have this morale bonus.
And WHAT "" +15% incoming damage debuff, -15% Physical Mitigation debuff."" ?

[mrfigglesworth]

You are stuborn or just cant see it ? We have little more phisical than guard but like 10% less tactical. Taunts ? Which one you mean ? 1 at 10 sec cd. Ok. Name others.
Threat reflect become useless when you kite and not get hits. Guard and cpt have increase healing recieve too. Thinkened hide is MEH compared to both guard and cpt defensives. And is on 3 min cd.... Self heals ? close to zero, compared to ALL tanks. One nice 15% meat shield if you go down to get it from yellow line.

Beo wont replace guardian or captain, atleast not at this patch.
And i`m curious where you get such impresions ? Read them somewhere / world chat/ or you tested it yourself ? I`l be happy to know.
Because is one thing to bring papper facts, another one to test it and see how it feels in real.
The way you say +20% morale its like only we have it? All thanks have this morale bonus.
And WHAT "" +15% incoming damage debuff, -15% Physical Mitigation debuff."" ?

althought I agree guard and captain aren't going anywhere because of bpe advantages, crit D advantages, and cd advantages, the fact that you don't even know what skills debuff phys mits and inc dmg and say thickened hide is on a 3 min cd makes me suspect your knowledge of the class bro.

[Pavlin]

althought I agree guard and captain aren't going anywhere because of bpe advantages, crit D advantages, and cd advantages, the fact that you don't even know what skills debuff phys mits and inc dmg and say thickened hide is on a 3 min cd makes me suspect your knowledge of the class bro.

You gona kill me because mistyped 2 with 3 ? go for it, i deserve it....
If you use armour crush to aply dmg taken debuf on target, or if you use it to deal dmg, then you do it wrong. For this you have captains....
Swipe debuff is hard to keep up / 3 stacks atleast/ because his short duration/ 12 seconds/ atleast in fights where you need to move alot.
You get 10% phisical mitigation from guard. Tell me from where he get this 15% dmg reduce/ and its sounds like he mean total dmg reduce not just phisical.
About how well i know my class, you can read my previous post (page 6)
And please google ""sarcasm""

[ColMcStacky]

You are stuborn or just cant see it ? We have little more phisical than guard but like 10% less tactical. Taunts ? Which one you mean ? 1 at 10 sec cd. Ok. Name others.
Threat reflect become useless when you kite and not get hits. Guard and cpt have increase healing recieve too. Thinkened hide is MEH compared to both guard and cpt defensives. And is on 3 min cd.... Self heals ? close to zero, compared to ALL tanks. One nice 15% meat shield if you go down to get it from yellow line.

75% phys mit compared to 70% phys mit means you take ~8% less physical damage on a Beorning. We have 5% less tact mit, which at 65% compared to 70% means we also take ~9% more tactical damage.

Thickened Hide is actually a really good cooldown, being nearly as strong as Shield of the Dunedain, having a longer duration, shorter cooldown (2min, not 3min like you said), and healing you 1% for each hit you take as well. Self heals aren't that strong, point taken; I get about 2-2.5k HPS while tanking now. I don't know what you mean by "One nice 15% meat shield if you go down to get it from yellow line". If you mean bees, its a debuff not a buff, so has no defensive purpose.

Beo wont replace guardian or captain, atleast not at this patch.
And i`m curious where you get such impresions ? Read them somewhere / world chat/ or you tested it yourself ? I`l be happy to know.
Because is one thing to bring papper facts, another one to test it and see how it feels in real.
The way you say +20% morale its like only we have it? All thanks have this morale bonus.
And WHAT "" +15% incoming damage debuff, -15% Physical Mitigation debuff."" ?

In my own experience tanking, it seems like Beornings will become more desirable than Guards. Whether they will completely eclipse Guards is a completely different story (and I doubt it), but in most situations I do believe that we will be objectively better.

With respect to the morale bonus, I was comparing Beorning to Guardian. Guards don't have a morale bonus, so it is a benefit, likewise with the armour buff.

And yes, +15% incoming damage debuff is from Armour Crush, your second interrupt. -15% Physical Mitigation debuff is from Debilitating Bees in yellow line. These are two pretty significant DPS buffs a Beorning tank brings to the group, and Guards don't have anything comparable.

If you use armour crush to aply dmg taken debuf on target, or if you use it to deal dmg, then you do it wrong. For this you have captains....
Swipe debuff is hard to keep up / 3 stacks atleast/ because his short duration/ 12 seconds/ atleast in fights where you need to move alot.
You get 10% phisical mitigation from guard. Tell me from where he get this 15% dmg reduce/ and its sounds like he mean total dmg reduce not just phisical.

How is using all the tools in your toolbox "doing it wrong"? It is a valid benefit that Beornings bring to a group over tanking Guards and Cappies. Claw Swipe's debuff really isn't worthwhile because its additive with mastery (at least last time I checked, that is) so it isn't actually -9% damage, it's more like -1.5% damage on t2 (probably less on t3).

If that's the impression I gave you, then I apologize, I must've misspoken. I was referring to Armour Crush and/or Debilitating Bees, depending on which one you were referring to.



Just to clarify my position, I don't believe that blue-line needs a massive nerf. I really like how it feels. Right now, I would like to see the yellow line rez, Overbearing, moved into the yellow sidebar so it isn't accessible by tanking bears. Other that that, I don't think bears need any real nerfs in blue-line. I was simply outlining the benefits a Beorning has over other tanking classes, not asking for these things to get nerfed.

[mrfigglesworth]

I don't know what you mean by "One nice 15% meat shield if you go down to get it from yellow line". If you mean bees, its a debuff not a buff, so has no defensive purpose.

bubble i think

[Pavlin]

75% phys mit compared to 70% phys mit means you take ~8% less physical damage on a Beorning. We have 5% less tact mit, which at 65% compared to 70% means we also take ~9% more tactical damage.

Thickened Hide is actually a really good cooldown, being nearly as strong as Shield of the Dunedain, having a longer duration, shorter cooldown (2min, not 3min like you said), and healing you 1% for each hit you take as well. Self heals aren't that strong, point taken; I get about 2-2.5k HPS while tanking now. I don't know what you mean by "One nice 15% meat shield if you go down to get it from yellow line". If you mean bees, its a debuff not a buff, so has no defensive purpose.



In my own experience tanking, it seems like Beornings will become more desirable than Guards. Whether they will completely eclipse Guards is a completely different story (and I doubt it), but in most situations I do believe that we will be objectively better.

With respect to the morale bonus, I was comparing Beorning to Guardian. Guards don't have a morale bonus, so it is a benefit, likewise with the armour buff.

And yes, +15% incoming damage debuff is from Armour Crush, your second interrupt. -15% Physical Mitigation debuff is from Debilitating Bees in yellow line. These are two pretty significant DPS buffs a Beorning tank brings to the group, and Guards don't have anything comparable.



How is using all the tools in your toolbox "doing it wrong"? It is a valid benefit that Beornings bring to a group over tanking Guards and Cappies. Claw Swipe's debuff really isn't worthwhile because its additive with mastery (at least last time I checked, that is) so it isn't actually -9% damage, it's more like -1.5% damage on t2 (probably less on t3).

If that's the impression I gave you, then I apologize, I must've misspoken. I was referring to Armour Crush and/or Debilitating Bees, depending on which one you were referring to.



Just to clarify my position, I don't believe that blue-line needs a massive nerf. I really like how it feels. Right now, I would like to see the yellow line rez, Overbearing, moved into the yellow sidebar so it isn't accessible by tanking bears. Other that that, I don't think bears need any real nerfs in blue-line. I was simply outlining the benefits a Beorning has over other tanking classes, not asking for these things to get nerfed.

There is your meat shield / https://imgur.com/a/sukYdiO
So you go bees and sacrafice usefull skills only to take something which is provided by support classes like LMs, or burglers ? Or from yellow bear ? They dont stack you know. Pluse if you go yellow bees you screw blue ones bonus, because guess what, they dont stack.... About "How is using all the tools in your toolbox "doing it wrong"?"" you use them when they are needed. Not like spam them because they are not on cd... About hide, yes is nothing, compared to the guard and captain defensive tools.
Your rolle as a tank is to survive and maybe provide some utility. If you want to be jack of all traits, please be my guest. But dont tell me this is the right way of tanking.

[ColMcStacky]

There is your meat shield / https://imgur.com/a/sukYdiO
So you go bees and sacrafice usefull skills only to take something which is provided by support classes like LMs, or burglers ? Or from yellow bear ? They dont stack you know. Pluse if you go yellow bees you screw blue ones bonus, because guess what, they dont stack.... About "How is using all the tools in your toolbox "doing it wrong"?"" you use them when they are needed. Not like spam them because they are not on cd... About hide, yes is nothing, compared to the guard and captain defensive tools.
Your rolle as a tank is to survive and maybe provide some utility. If you want to be jack of all traits, please be my guest. But dont tell me this is the right way of tanking.

Oh. Where did I sacrifice the bubble on Shake Free? If you look at both traitlines that I linked earlier (AoE and https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...nShot00003.jpg), they both include the 15% bubble. With the reduced cooldown I find it very helpful actually, especially when you are in a fight where stuns aren't an issue.

And yes, I don't trait the blue bees because they don't really help all that much, and they don't stack with yellow bees. I would rather have the mitigation reduction than the slight slow, although that's more a point of personal choice than anything; they can both be useful situationally. I just personally prefer yellow bees, as attack speed debuffs don't really affect your TPS that much on bosses that have scripted attacks (which are most bosses).

Regarding Thickened Hide, if you really think it's nothing, then you won't lose anything if you don't trait it. I think it's a fairly potent cooldown, and that only having one cooldown is simply a trade-off of using a bear tank considering everything else it brings to the table. While another would be nice, I don't really see the need for it. Beornings do need to have some downside after all. That is one area of tanking where other classes have a better appeal, which is important. Let each tank shine in their respective area of expertise (except for Chanks apparently, but that's a tangent for another thread somewhere...).

[Pavlin]

Oh. Where did I sacrifice the bubble on Shake Free? If you look at both traitlines that I linked earlier (AoE and https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...nShot00003.jpg), they both include the 15% bubble. With the reduced cooldown I find it very helpful actually, especially when you are in a fight where stuns aren't an issue.

And yes, I don't trait the blue bees because they don't really help all that much, and they don't stack with yellow bees. I would rather have the mitigation reduction than the slight slow, although that's more a point of personal choice than anything; they can both be useful situationally. I just personally prefer yellow bees, as attack speed debuffs don't really affect your TPS that much on bosses that have scripted attacks (which are most bosses).

Regarding Thickened Hide, if you really think it's nothing, then you won't lose anything if you don't trait it. I think it's a fairly potent cooldown, and that only having one cooldown is simply a trade-off of using a bear tank considering everything else it brings to the table. While another would be nice, I don't really see the need for it. Beornings do need to have some downside after all. That is one area of tanking where other classes have a better appeal, which is important. Let each tank shine in their respective area of expertise (except for Chanks apparently, but that's a tangent for another thread somewhere...).

When ppl want to see something as black they will always do. Even if its white like milk.
Thanks for the links, they speak so much. And now i can see the way you think. I`l never go with such builds. They make no sence. Even for pvmp. And i`l tell you why.

Dont thik i try fight you. I dont lose my time in meaningles fights. Take my words as a advice. Is up to you.
One more /2/ thing before i start. I said ""sacrafice useful skills"" (didnt mention bubule) and that hide is nothing COMPARED to other tanks defensive cds. This not mean is nothing in general. Its a nice skill and is the only one we have. So now back to your builds.
As i said they have LITTLE sence if you use them for pvmp. I dont pvp in this game so pvp talk done.
About pve.
Bee color is personal choise. But i pick blue over yellow because of some reasons. First is more cheap. Second i do prefer to have slow attack on add instead to have my yellow bees useles only because i have support class in fellow who have similar skill. What if you have burg lm or yellow bear in fellow ? Stil agree yellow are more useful ones but this hardly justify the price of SP.You have armour crush wich increase target dmg take as 15% and in the same time you have spend 6 points in bee to get 12% phisical dmg taken incrase on target? Why? They dont stack. Must be some logic i miss.
I see you link this build as aoe one https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...nShot00003.jpg. but i see nothing aoe in it. Anyway.
You pick nature mend and hardened hearth? how often you go to human form to use them? So you sacrafice 30% armor and 20% to get like 10k heal and some wrath from hh which you dont even need as a blue bear. Or you starving from wrath? Then you do it wrong. Why you skip quick recovery? Its changed in this patch and now is worth sloting. You go down in yellow to pick st range stun from leveling roar but in the same time you skip red aoe stun from lumber? You alse skip 5% crit and 15% thrash dmg/ your spamable skill. And all this ONLY to pick one combat ress? What about Healing Increase trait? With this build most/all/ of your heals come from HoTs which in best case are like 4k tick. Why you increase them with 10% ? for 400 more heal per tick ...?
If you want self heals, slot quick recovery + crit chanse/ this make your initial tick of recuperate much stronger and when it crits its like 15k heal. And you usualy spam it.
Phisical mitigation increase 3/5? Wont even coment that.
Is hard but i`l pretend i didnt see the skiping of hide and the only useful aoe taunt you have. Is hard but i try.............

Second build https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...nShot00002.jpg. Literaly the same, if not even worse
You again put meaningles points in hardened hearth. You again get ranged st stun skiping the aoe one. You again have 10% healing increase / 10% of nothing is stil nothing/
You again have debuf from bees/ which dont stack with one from blue line/ and all this is to get 5% ST dmg reduce for 12 seconds every 30 sec. Yes is 5% because you have 15% from armour crush.
Atleast you slot hide and roar this time.
Its admirable that you spend lots of mithril to unlock 3 extra trait trees. Is not bad to experiment with builds. Now you need practice.
If you just undust your bear, i play mine from release date. So instead of getting it as a fight, try to see the advices i give you. I`m far from the best beorings in this game, but i`m very close behind them.
And pls get that last SP. 91 atm.
Cheers

ps

The only human talent i justify is opposing presence. Its rarely used but i may come handy in some situations/ to grab aoe mele agro without waste t. roar or when r. maul is on cd/

[JiiPee]

30% armour buff, 20% morale buff, 75% Physical Mitigations, 65% Tactical Mitigations, permanent threat reflect and +7.5% Incoming Healing, more taunts than any other tank on shorter cooldowns as well, +15% incoming damage debuff, -15% Physical Mitigation debuff. When it comes to cooldown skills, Thickened Hide is a very strong one, albeit our only one. What is not OP about Beornings currently? How are we still below Guard tanks? I guess Cappies because of Last Stand, Shield of the Dunedain, insane Incoming Healing and Incoming Damage Reduction buffs, but our toolkit doesn't really compete with Cappies. Beornings are probably going to be competing with Guards as maintanks, and other than having 5% more Tactical Mitigation and more cooldowns, I don't see what Guards bring to the table over Beornings at the moment.

I just wanna point out that beorning damage reduction abilities aren't powerfull as people think they are. Reason is that they just tanks mastery %, not real outgoing damage so how effective they are, it depends of mob mastery %. Also they are not reliable because they have damage element with them and they can get BPE, so if you want them to be reliable, you need to slot lot of finesse. And this finesse issue goes to beez, armour crush etc.
So it's better to use just self buffs in compare because anything what goes outside requires luck because I don't think any tank slot enough finesse to get buffs out reliable. I have on RK now almost 90k finesse and I am still getting too many resists so new finesse requirement for T3 is prolly close what we had at 115 cap so for tactical skills over 100k (I had 120k on rk) before this latest patch my rk had 73k finesse and it seemed to be ok, but this patch pushed finesse requirement way up.

[JiiPee]

Second build https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...nShot00002.jpg. Literaly the same, if not even worse
You again put meaningles points in hardened hearth. You again get ranged st stun skiping the aoe one. You again have 10% healing increase / 10% of nothing is stil nothing/
You again have debuf from bees/ which dont stack with one from blue line/ and all this is to get 5% ST dmg reduce for 12 seconds every 30 sec. Yes is 5% because you have 15% from armour crush.
Atleast you slot hide and roar this time.
Its admirable that you spend lots of mithril to unlock 3 extra trait trees. Is not bad to experiment with builds. Now you need practice.
If you just undust your bear, i play mine from release date. So instead of getting it as a fight, try to see the advices i give you. I`m far from the best beorings in this game, but i`m very close behind them.
And pls get that last SP. 91 atm.
Cheers

Actually for PvE blue/yellow is way to go. You rather wanna trait yellow beez that blue beez because blue beez does not make any sense for PvE because specially bosses do scripted attacks so attack duration/induction debuffs makes no sense but -15% mitigation debuff makes lot of sense when you actually can land that debuff with low finesse.
I do not trait blue beez because it's useless for PvE, if I did PvP then it could make some sense to trait it and use it for healer.

Also it's perfectly fine to trait incombat rezz and not trait thickened hide and thunderous roar for off tank situation. You also get natures mend by doing that and you can pop rush, start kite and go man form do mend, hearten, mend, back to bear form and you have got some nice heal done to yourself now that mend is just 3sec and when you use rush and kite you get like now hits on that time.

I'm not saying that you do it wrong. I'm just saying that there is different ways to play beorning, I did saw one beorning using lumber when I was grinding CoS and it worked very well there but it just doesn't fix for my way to tank with beorning.

[jomanjy]

can we get any clarification if beornings heals will remain the same or get nerfed ? it is way too strong compared to other healing classes right now. beornings needed a lot of buffs and reworks but 35k+ ST hps and 110k+ HPs is stupid imo.

[mrfigglesworth]

can we get any clarification if beornings heals will remain the same or get nerfed ? it is way too strong compared to other healing classes right now. beornings needed a lot of buffs and reworks but 35k+ ST hps and 110k+ HPs is stupid imo.

confirmed getting fixed, the armor is healing for 100% instead of 33% for each fellow with the encouraging roar hot atm.

[jomanjy]

confirmed getting fixed, the armor is healing for 100% instead of 33% for each fellow with the encouraging roar hot atm.

yeah good to know that but still 35k ST hps is way too strong.

[Hildilas]

yeah good to know that but still 35k ST hps is way too strong.

Answered you in the other thread, too. But this is the official Beo Forum so.

1. Rks don't just "heal"/help with hps. They Support one target actually better than a mini even though the hps is lower.
2. Minis are bugged and some skills were nerfed too much. Minis are crying for a fix right now and not because of the Beo.
3. The Beo Hots esp the Tier 3 Hot generates extremely high crits. Tbh they could just take away the Tier 3 Hot of Encouraging Roar and the one target HPS would be lower.
Also - even though I really love it, the % heal that Comes with Bond of Trust is not needed anymore and should maybe be changed to sth else or nerfed to 1% or whatever.

@vastin: pls do not nerf the "whole" Thing. Step by step. There is a bit of time until the T3 Raid. T2 will be easily possible with or without a "not nerfed" Beo.