The real reason why the action is bad

[Saruman_Of_Numbers]

because no one actually wants good action.


everyone on both sides seems to be content with shuffling/camping all day long.

Freeps are content to sit on the steps and pew-pew...
despite having the ability to form a stable group and go elsewhere.

Creeps are content to sit 45 meters from the steps and pew-pew...
despite having the ability to form small groups and rotate/limit numbers and form small groups to 6v6 elsewhere


PVP is currently relatively balanced between the 6 and 12 man ranges.... great action could happen, but no one actually wants it.


Even when a 6 man freep group leaves GV and heads to LC/HOP/AEOP area and gets called out, none of the 20 or so creeps want to go check it out or make a small group to counter... and if they do show up, its all 20 at the same time.

Even when there are enough freeps at GV to form a group, almost no one on freep tries to make a group out of it, even the so-called "leaders" who led groups in U21 and U22.



Don't complain about bad action if you are making zero efforts at improving the action and are actively putting in effort to make the action terribad.

You have no one to blame but yourselves. Its the players this time, not the game.

[Youmyfood]

[Valakircka]

because no one actually wants good action.


everyone on both sides seems to be content with shuffling/camping all day long.

Freeps are content to sit on the steps and pew-pew...
despite having the ability to form a stable group and go elsewhere.

Creeps are content to sit 45 meters from the steps and pew-pew...
despite having the ability to form small groups and rotate/limit numbers and form small groups to 6v6 elsewhere


PVP is currently relatively balanced between the 6 and 12 man ranges.... great action could happen, but no one actually wants it.


Even when a 6 man freep group leaves GV and heads to LC/HOP/AEOP area and gets called out, none of the 20 or so creeps want to go check it out or make a small group to counter... and if they do show up, its all 20 at the same time.

Even when there are enough freeps at GV to form a group, almost no one on freep tries to make a group out of it, even the so-called "leaders" who led groups in U21 and U22.



Don't complain about bad action if you are making zero efforts at improving the action and are actively putting in effort to make the action terribad.

You have no one to blame but yourselves. Its the players this time, not the game.

yes mate you r right
players r getting enough renown by this camp pew pew so they dont bother to do real pvp raiding that we used to do in the past
when my kin was a kin in the moors we never camped n the soloers followed us! it was a good time but we r short in numbers nowdays

on the other hand there r some solutions to this prob that the company may take if they wish to change things
.improve range of GV n GF guardians
.lower the renown earned per kill in areas close to GV n GF 90%
.lower the renown earned in the moors to half for soloers
.add renown buff for players in fellowships, +10 for 6 man, +15% for 12 man +20% for 24 man
.lower the renown needed to earn ranks(so the new people find easier to rank up)
.add new items n new tier of armour that is good enough for PVE(the skin with the white tree is very nice compering with the older)
.add new ranks so the older players join again
.add latest tier of essences after every update
.add new creep classes the creeps asking for so long
.add armour to the creeps making them equal to freeps
.consider doing changes in osgiliath, the place is dead since day 1

[sapienze]

yes mate you r right
players r getting enough renown by this camp pew pew so they dont bother to do real pvp raiding that we used to do in the past
when my kin was a kin in the moors we never camped n the soloers followed us! it was a good time but we r short in numbers nowdays

on the other hand there r some solutions to this prob that the company may take if they wish to change things
.improve range of GV n GF guardians
.lower the renown earned per kill in areas close to GV n GF 90%

These two would suffice for now. The rest was an unneeded laundry list of items not likely to ever happen.


It's always been this way after an update. Especially on the highest pvp populated servers, though this time around SSG stretched this time frame out to a ridiculous length. Near 3 months PvMP stands at a halt when options could have been implemented on day one of U23.

[galrodan]

On top of the decreased infamy/renown gain near GV and GF it might be a good idea to add hope and dread to areas around GV and GF.(If I remember correctly they even talked about this in a livestream years ago) When freeps are fighting at the steps of GV they'll get hope and creeps camping GV will get dread (or something else with the same effects if you want to argue that giving creeps is lorebreaking). The closer to GV, the more Hope/Dread freeps and creeps get. This would make it so GV/GF camping doesn't give out a lot of infamy/renown and would also make it a lot harder. This would imo also benefit open fields 1v1s. Right now the line is the 1 shotter range. It's living or dying. There isnt a middle ground where fights can still take place but are greatly affected by being nearby GV/GF.

.add renown buff for players in fellowships, +10 for 6 man, +15% for 12 man +20% for 24 man

I think it should be the other way around to encourage players to fight in coordinated 6 man and not just a 24 man zerg which would lag just be lagfest for everyone involved.


Mulatic
R13 Reaver
Arkenstone

[AaronIU]

on the other hand there r some solutions to this prob that the company may take if they wish to change things
.improve range of GV n GF guardians
.lower the renown earned per kill in areas close to GV n GF 90%
.lower the renown earned in the moors to half for soloers
.add renown buff for players in fellowships, +10 for 6 man, +15% for 12 man +20% for 24 man

The first two would help the situation, the last three would totally sh*t on the situation and make it 100 times worse. Leave solo renown gain as it is or even a small buff like it had before. Reward small groups like 3-6 man. Raid farming is already bad enough, you have masses of high ranked players that just sit in their raid and push the dps button with no concept of how their class synergizes with others. We need to discourage zerging, camping, and shuffling by all means necessary, not reward it like you’re asking for with these changes.

[Saruman_Of_Numbers]

[minnimeepouch]

Been some nice rvr on Evernight the last few days, what seems to be the biggest action breaker is when a side wipes the defeated side will tend to come back with more heals or more numbers mainly due to switchers, this in return deflates player morale hence the players return to the grams/gv and sit it out till the overkill side starts to thin out.


Fixes:
1 Diminished returns on over healing (player gets heal stacked becomes immune to any inc heals for x amount of time inc self healing)
2 Remove outpost buffs.
3 longer cd on switching.

Lot players want to roam around the map and still do, like i mentioned above the current mechanics just forces the tide to one side every time a RvR gets going.

[J-Moneyforever]

because no one actually wants good action.


everyone on both sides seems to be content with shuffling/camping all day long.

Freeps are content to sit on the steps and pew-pew...
despite having the ability to form a stable group and go elsewhere.

Creeps are content to sit 45 meters from the steps and pew-pew...
despite having the ability to form small groups and rotate/limit numbers and form small groups to 6v6 elsewhere


PVP is currently relatively balanced between the 6 and 12 man ranges.... great action could happen, but no one actually wants it.


Even when a 6 man freep group leaves GV and heads to LC/HOP/AEOP area and gets called out, none of the 20 or so creeps want to go check it out or make a small group to counter... and if they do show up, its all 20 at the same time.

Even when there are enough freeps at GV to form a group, almost no one on freep tries to make a group out of it, even the so-called "leaders" who led groups in U21 and U22.



Don't complain about bad action if you are making zero efforts at improving the action and are actively putting in effort to make the action terribad.

You have no one to blame but yourselves. Its the players this time, not the game.

All this is why I quit and said I won't return even if we got old pvp back. Unless the old community returns the PvP will be entirely shufflers. The old players wanted good fights and to destroy the other faction regardless of points. We were chasing deeds/titles cause they meant something. Now SSG facilitated those players leaving. But the end result is PvP is done unless you get an influx of players who want real action not just shuffle points.

[Melywen]

Meh.





The Legendary Servers are our only hope!

[dselden]

All this is why I quit and said I won't return even if we got old pvp back. Unless the old community returns the PvP will be entirely shufflers. The old players wanted good fights and to destroy the other faction regardless of points. We were chasing deeds/titles cause they meant something. Now SSG facilitated those players leaving. But the end result is PvP is done unless you get an influx of players who want real action not just shuffle points.

Problem is that changes to infamy/renown gains over time rewarded massive amounts of easy kills with larger groups over the other side instead of rewarding even or outnumbered fights. This pushed away most people who actually wanted to pvp and basically made character progression via rank the only appeal of the moors since the pvp was so abysmal.

[J-Moneyforever]

Problem is that changes to infamy/renown gains over time rewarded massive amounts of easy kills with larger groups over the other side instead of rewarding even or outnumbered fights. This pushed away most people who actually wanted to pvp and basically made character progression via rank the only appeal of the moors since the pvp was so abysmal.

I agree and disagree. That point change (which did drive some off) went through pre-85. And 85 pvp was some of the best I ever experienced. But imo some of the things that drove the good pvpers away in droves was the trait trees, the decision to go to an absurdly grind based gearing system that felt unrewarding and unfun. Epic battles of course drove people away because they were a dumpster fire. And finally a general lack of support for pvp. Lag got worse and we got no response. Creeps had a plethora of traits that hadn't been updated in years and we got no response. Freeps went months in to level caps without receiving new pvp armour, and when they did receive it they found it wasn't remotely competitive with the grind fest armour. All around it felt like post 85 and to some extent post 75. The execs at SSG/Turbine made calculated decisions to minimize the dev resources put into PvP and maximize the possible monetization while ignoring any calls for server optimization. This game had 800k subs at it's height, and while no game lasts forever if they had continued to put the thought and effort in that they did at the beginning it could easily still have 200k+ subs. Instead I would guess that they're not above 10k. Lesson is that money grabs and treating player desires with contempt never works.

[Daenirion]

The execs at SSG/Turbine made calculated decisions to minimize the dev resources put into PvP and maximize the possible monetization while ignoring any calls for server optimization. This game had 800k subs at it's height, and while no game lasts forever if they had continued to put the thought and effort in that they did at the beginning it could easily still have 200k+ subs. Instead I would guess that they're not above 10k. Lesson is that money grabs and treating player desires with contempt never works.

Exactly! Just take a look at Blizzard right now.

Also:

[Saruman_Of_Numbers]

Exactly! Just take a look at Blizzard right now.

Also:

100% true, but LOTRO PVP is more like a soccer field or basketball court.... it can be poorly maintained or abandoned, but ultimately its the players who decide what game they will play on it and what rules to follow.

People can choose to shuffle or they can choose to try and partake in reasonable action like 6v6.


So far I've been trying to reach out on both sides of Arkenstone PvP, but a disturbingly high amount of people on both sides are against any kind of non-shuffle action.

I have contacted 2 large freepside kinships who frequent the moors, and their leaders were 100% against the idea of having even-numbered fights (where both sides have the same amount of people and had reasonable composition) or having any action outside of GV 1-shot line. On creepside its the same, many players who would rather quit the game than engage in anything less than a zerg v zerg shuffle-camp at GV.


It's like a soccer field where everyone would rather sit on the benches than play ball. You could sit them in the world's best stadium, but they will still sit on the benches WHILE COMPLAINING ABOUT SITTING ON THE BENCHES.

[J-Moneyforever]

100% true, but LOTRO PVP is more like a soccer field or basketball court.... it can be poorly maintained or abandoned, but ultimately its the players who decide what game they will play on it and what rules to follow.

People can choose to shuffle or they can choose to try and partake in reasonable action like 6v6.


So far I've been trying to reach out on both sides of Arkenstone PvP, but a disturbingly high amount of people on both sides are against any kind of non-shuffle action.

I have contacted 2 large freepside kinships who frequent the moors, and their leaders were 100% against the idea of having even-numbered fights (where both sides have the same amount of people and had reasonable composition) or having any action outside of GV 1-shot line. On creepside its the same, many players who would rather quit the game than engage in anything less than a zerg v zerg shuffle-camp at GV.


It's like a soccer field where everyone would rather sit on the benches than play ball. You could sit them in the world's best stadium, but they will still sit on the benches WHILE COMPLAINING ABOUT SITTING ON THE BENCHES.

While I agree that the current state of PvMP could be massively improved if the population simply chose to create better action. My main point was that the population by and large that wanted good action without having to be told were shunted away from the game by Turbine/SSG's horrific treatment of PvP.

[Saruman_Of_Numbers]

While I agree that the current state of PvMP could be massively improved if the population simply chose to create better action. My main point was that the population by and large that wanted good action without having to be told were shunted away from the game by Turbine/SSG's horrific treatment of PvP.

fair enough, although the horrific treatment of PVP would not have been too horrific if the players agreed to their own sets of rules that would counteract the incompetence of Turbine/SSG...

this is analogous to the Pokemon franchise, where some moves/pokemon/items are super OP and basically I-win buttons, but competitive play has sprung up around the game due to self-imposed rules by groups of players to make it balanced.

PVP didn't HAVE to die... it died because the community was not strong enough AND because SSG didn't make it easy for them.

[sapienze]

Remove entry once in the Moors from GV steps and Grams gate and place a portal for those locations having players spawn on Stab and Wtab. Leave the old points for exiting the Moors. Place a debuff on the bridges respective of the opposition (Stab with a Creep debuff, Wtab with a Freep debuff) so they won't get camped in melee range and have the debuff area large enough to make ranged camping worthless.

With some minor details, such as making sure LM pets and Spider pets get debuffed also, this would at the least change up the path of least resistance focus, players choose to follow. Anyway just a thought.

[Corwelleon]

fair enough, although the horrific treatment of PVP would not have been too horrific if the players agreed to their own sets of rules that would counteract the incompetence of Turbine/SSG...

this is analogous to the Pokemon franchise, where some moves/pokemon/items are super OP and basically I-win buttons, but competitive play has sprung up around the game due to self-imposed rules by groups of players to make it balanced.

PVP didn't HAVE to die... it died because the community was not strong enough AND because SSG didn't make it easy for them.

I think you are right on here. The game is what it is, and the player community needs to have enough passion and dedication to WANT to play. Yet, we create our own obstacles, as a community, to have good fights.

On Landy, there is a dedicated, if small, community of folks who like to PvMP, and will play EITHER side to get action. So, if we have 12 Creeps out and only 3 Freeps, we send several over to even things out and allow for action. Yet, some in the larger community look at this as akin to the “original sin” in the Garden of Eden. “I don’t group with Creeps!” An interesting statement from a diehard Freep who is thrown a life preserver but would rather sink on the steps of GV than take the field and strive for victory.

In fairness, there were several Creeps in U22 that would get upset when Creeps pushed out of Grams and allowed the Freeps to get Glory! “You are just feeding them by trying to fight.” No, we are striving to win and don’t like sitting on the stoop all day. Yes, in U22 we failed more than we won (for a while) then turned that around by binding together into a tight machine.

Now, with the shoe on the other foot, the Freeps will need to do the same if they want to play. They need to bind together and do what it takes to win. That means better tactics, thoughtful composition and yes, grouping with any player willing to win along with them.

My suggestion to the greater PvMP community is remember that it is a community. Respect that, and things may be different. If WE want to have good fights, it is up to US to create them. That is my take-away from this excellent thread.

See you in the game!

[Hilawolf]

fair enough, although the horrific treatment of PVP would not have been too horrific if the players agreed to their own sets of rules that would counteract the incompetence of Turbine/SSG...
.

Back when Riddermark PvMP was strong, there was Moors etiquette that was enforced by the player base. No ganking solos if you are in a group. Don't attack someone more than 5 ranks from you if they are questing. Fight club is a safe zone, no ganking. Keep the outposts at 2 apiece. If you stepped out of line, the other side would hunt you down, and your side would stand by and let them. You would also get frozen out of groups, and don't expect any help. I think it made a difference, and made for a better experience overall.

[Nouri]

100% true, but LOTRO PVP is more like a soccer field or basketball court.... it can be poorly maintained or abandoned, but ultimately its the players who decide what game they will play on it and what rules to follow.

This is very true! Players have much more power than they realize when it comes to balance an the quality of PvP in the Moors.

[galrodan]

Back when Riddermark PvMP was strong, there was Moors etiquette that was enforced by the player base. No ganking solos if you are in a group. Don't attack someone more than 5 ranks from you if they are questing. Fight club is a safe zone, no ganking. Keep the outposts at 2 apiece. If you stepped out of line, the other side would hunt you down, and your side would stand by and let them. You would also get frozen out of groups, and don't expect any help. I think it made a difference, and made for a better experience overall.

Can confirm. PvMP on Riddermark was really nice and organized with a little something for everyone.

Mulatic
R13 Reaver
Arkenstone

[SavileRow]

Magnumum.....nice to hear from a literate Freep for a change.....

[Klungo]

Hi Guys,

I am a freep raid leader on gwaihir, and i agree to most of your statements.
We play in Groups betwenn 12 - 24 people and the actual balancing is really really bad.
The most PVMP Players have to be VIP to play, and we didn't get any development since ostgiliath what do we pay for ? Make the PVMP for non VIPs accesible or develop it continously - that is my opinion.
I hope Cordovan can push this thread a little bit and bring a patch for PVMP on the to do list!!!

The Players on Gwaihir are interested to help Standing Stones, by sending any informations about PVMP they need or testing anything they want, but please make the PVMP great again

PS: I think no class should be able to kill an enemy by 1 or 2 shots, that has nothing to do with pvmp

[pinlu]

Why WOULD You remove outpost buffs? Just making the only chance to get solo action within 10minutes extinct. They give no mastery anyways for either side -- not even all four give half a creep corruption , 1000 more than a crafted essence.
As to the players killing pvp, tell that to the 48 freeps at grams 24/7 for the last year, same for this year now as creeps. It has always been a shuffle- From ta to EC OC. Reducing renown in these areas would just kill gy camping for the smaller groups/soloers.
You all point out the fact its down to the players, But one update you have 75% freep classes oneshotting, and now you have the creeps doing insane damage and freeps taking tonnes. Go get raid gear then see how the balance is. Not fair to judge it now, because the difference in raid and box tr(ash) gear is huge as you can slot like double the essences, and gain alot of armour value and base stats from jewels.

[Klungo]

Why WOULD You remove outpost buffs? Just making the only chance to get solo action within 10minutes extinct. They give no mastery anyways for either side -- not even all four give half a creep corruption , 1000 more than a crafted essence.
As to the players killing pvp, tell that to the 48 freeps at grams 24/7 for the last year, same for this year now as creeps. It has always been a shuffle- From ta to EC OC. Reducing renown in these areas would just kill gy camping for the smaller groups/soloers.
You all point out the fact its down to the players, But one update you have 75% freep classes oneshotting, and now you have the creeps doing insane damage and freeps taking tonnes. Go get raid gear then see how the balance is. Not fair to judge it now, because the difference in raid and box tr(ash) gear is huge as you can slot like double the essences, and gain alot of armour value and base stats from jewels.

I don't agree with your opinion that the gear of T2 should be enough. And Oneshotting on both sides is not the way to get good fights and action.
And why we get forced to get the new equip of new raids for playing PVMP?
A nice way to balance could be a special gear only for etten, if you want to play you have to put off your current pve gear and then you will be able to port into the etten.
I think there will be many ways, but the fun fact is that the developers don't care about the pvmp community, that is the main problem.