Anvil T2 Warden Tank?

[Hildilas]

Anyone tried this yet?

Any results or advice? What are your stats? Is it possible?

They are hearing the Minstrel's cry for help. Maybe they will hear us also.

May radiing group won't take a warden with them.

[Kander]

Warden basically need a huge buff duration increase (at least double) and better scaling of heals (morale taps are useless) and ratings of the buffs or changing some buffs from rating to %.
I haven't tanked on T2 yet but on T1 effectiveness of warden tanking is similar to that of the guardians but guards got juggernaut, warrior's heart and pledge apart from permanent single target taunt so they can ignore threat loss mechanics.

Bosses and adds on the raid basically leave you with 0 to 30% mits so you won't really notice that MIT difference (remember that the lower the % the lower the difference in terms of inc damage).

Specific suggestions to improve. Just scale properly heals and ratings.
Increase buff duration to basically 1 minute minimum.
Change skills like for the free peoples into % for a max of like 20% (would need to test).
Remove defiant challenge mitigations from skill and make it just passive mitigation.
Reduce the cooldown of warning shot to 30s.
Reduce the cooldown of stun/daze removal skill to 30 to 40s like other tanks.
First aid (effect removal) should have power cost reduced and maybe be able to remove at least 2 effects in blue line. (Guard for same cooldown and removes 4).

[Hildilas]

Warden basically need a huge buff duration increase (at least double) and better scaling of heals (morale taps are useless) and ratings of the buffs or changing some buffs from rating to %.
I haven't tanked on T2 yet but on T1 effectiveness of warden tanking is similar to that of the guardians but guards got juggernaut, warrior's heart and pledge apart from permanent single target taunt so they can ignore threat loss mechanics.

Bosses and adds on the raid basically leave you with 0 to 30% mits so you won't really notice that MIT difference (remember that the lower the % the lower the difference in terms of inc damage).

Specific suggestions to improve. Just scale properly heals and ratings.
Increase buff duration to basically 1 minute minimum.
Change skills like for the free peoples into % for a max of like 20% (would need to test).
Remove defiant challenge mitigations from skill and make it just passive mitigation.
Reduce the cooldown of warning shot to 30s.
Reduce the cooldown of stun/daze removal skill to 30 to 40s like other tanks.
First aid (effect removal) should have power cost reduced and maybe be able to remove at least 2 effects in blue line. (Guard for same cooldown and removes 4).

Yeah but not everything is % damage. So mits are still important and more morale does not help against % damage. We lack a panic, or two...though.

A thing that also bothers me - apart from everything you said, is that we do not support the group good enough. A little bit of defs and low heals. Maybe a warden would be taken if Conviction gave a damage/def % buff on group again or sth. like 5%/5% would not be op AND would also help OUR mitigation issue.
Why would you take a warden even If he WAS equal to captains and guards? captain has marks and bubbles and buffs. The warden...well.

[Kander]

Yeah but not everything is % damage. So mits are still important and more morale does not help against % damage. We lack a panic, or two...though.

A thing that also bothers me - apart from everything you said, is that we do not support the group good enough. A little bit of defs and low heals. Maybe a warden would be taken if Conviction gave a damage/def % buff on group again or sth. like 5%/5% would not be op AND would also help OUR mitigation issue.
Why would you take a warden even If he WAS equal to captains and guards? captain has marks and bubbles and buffs. The warden...well.

Well, tank traited you can put permanent -5% mitigation on enemies and -20% induction time if the fight is not really stressfull and is a pure dps race... I would love to see better buffs yeah, but mainly the problem warden got are emergency skills and buff durations/magnitudes.

[Hildilas]

So we had a warden tank tanking the adds on Boss1 T2 yesterderday. It worked well. Many adds are always nice for a warden....
Boss 2 was a different thing though...MUCH MUCH inc damage in the beginning. Many guards etc start fights with a panic until everybody is on position etc. That was of course not possible. BUT we also had a "new" dwarf that we knew nothing about and made trouble.

[Gertes]

So we had a warden tank tanking the adds on Boss1 T2 yesterderday. It worked well. Many adds are always nice for a warden....
Boss 2 was a different thing though...MUCH MUCH inc damage in the beginning. Many guards etc start fights with a panic until everybody is on position etc. That was of course not possible. BUT we also had a "new" dwarf that we knew nothing about and made trouble.

Insted of using your selfe a deff cd at the Start of id2, i would suggest that one of the other classes like Captain,RK or bear is throwing one for you.

[Hildilas]

Insted of using your selfe a deff cd at the Start of id2, i would suggest that one of the other classes like Captain,RK or bear is throwing one for you.

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True...But we didn't get the new dwarf mechanic -which killed us, and it was kinda late, too. You know what this dwarf does?

I think it's just nice to see that the warden is able to do sth as a tank. BUT compared to a guard he lacks panic/defs and compared to a captain he lacks skills that help the group. No one would chose a warden tank over a captain right?

i'd really like to have the +8% trait mits of the hunter ^^

[Gertes]

I think you are talking about branthok I. I'm not 100% sure what he does, but seemed to me that he does random hits some time, which are doing big damage.

[dsltn07]

I think you are talking about branthok I. I'm not 100% sure what he does, but seemed to me that he does random hits some time, which are doing big damage.

There were two this last week that were difficult. To deal with them, one must be tanked 30m away from the entire group (aoe) and the other requires the entire group be within 5m him, so standing directly behind the mob otherwise his aoe hits everyone at range.

Regarding mits I don’t know how high the warden goes anymore, but guard and bear both go up to 75% Pmit. That fight of course is tactical damage though, so the aim would be matching 65% Tmit.

Regarding healing bear panics, what are you talking about? If you mean using sacrifice on a tank at the start of that fight, that’s just asking for a dead healer/bear. Bear healers don’t have a panic skill.

[Corwelleon]

There were two this last week that were difficult. To deal with them, one must be tanked 30m away from the entire group (aoe) and the other requires the entire group be within 5m him, so standing directly behind the mob otherwise his aoe hits everyone at range.

Regarding mits I don’t know how high the warden goes anymore, but guard and bear both go up to 75% Pmit. That fight of course is tactical damage though, so the aim would be matching 65% Tmit.

Regarding healing bear panics, what are you talking about? If you mean using sacrifice on a tank at the start of that fight, that’s just asking for a dead healer/bear. Bear healers don’t have a panic skill.

I believe a buffed Warden caps at 60% mits.

[Kander]

I believe a buffed Warden caps at 60% mits.

Not exactly. A tank warden (with capped rating) will have 55% mits. 5% extra if they spam aoe taunt on cooldown (which is not always possible due to mechanics), 3% from conviction/dance of war, but again it's possible those buffs are not 100% up time.

[Hildilas]

Not exactly. A tank warden (with capped rating) will have 55% mits. 5% extra if they spam aoe taunt on cooldown (which is not always possible due to mechanics), 3% from conviction/dance of war, but again it's possible those buffs are not 100% up time.

Right. For one boss you do not need that and just use it on CD. For a boss with adding adds this is not quite possible. Theoretically you get to 65% each with much effort infight.


In addition to my last post about the warden tank in raid T2:

2. Boss as the off tank: works really well as well. Tanking the hammer guy and spotting the boss now and then. He died in the end (because of the wound) but Boss was dead and we had a rezz. We didn't try using a warden as the main tank though.
We did not try boss 3 with a warden yet but Boss 3 is the easiest and I would chose the warden for karazghar.

The main problem ist still: Why would I take a warden tank over a captain? You know? The morale buff alone is so much worth. Combined with the mark you just do not chose a warden over a captain IF you have the choice.Maybe Boss debuffing while tanking and building up our defs could be a thing. We ARE able to debuff a boss but it takes way too much time if you want to do this effectively. OR giving conviction not just a group heal but a group buff. %defs or % damage or sth. Reducing the induction by 20% SOUND kinda great BUT 20% of very low numbers is not as much as it sounds and it is not helpful for some skills/classes at all.

[Krindel]

Surely blue line need some love from developers, but I think, that changes must be done on other classes too, because some other tank classes are too overpowered, now we have in game 3 off tank classes, which two of them have much better survivability than warden, this classes are Beorning and Captain. Remember, warden is supposed to be main tank class, on character creation screen, there are two classes with defensive role, warden and guardian.
I know everyone will hate me, but I have to say it. Bigest issue in tank class balance is Captain. Yellow captain's survivability and utility is superior, captain tank is must have in higher tier raids, so for other tank classes, only one free tank spot remains and this must be changed. Either captain's survivability or utility in yellow line have to be reduced. Nerf captain tank, so all tank classes will compete for 2 tank spots in raid. Things like in combat res, revealing/telling mark and motivation buff should not be in tank's arsenal, especialy if it is combined with high damage reduction, highest incomming healing, strong self heal and highest morale pool in game, with panic skills like Last Stand, Shield of Dunedain.

[Hildilas]

Surely blue line need some love from developers, but I think, that changes must be done on other classes too, because some other tank classes are too overpowered, now we have in game 3 off tank classes, which two of them have much better survivability than warden, this classes are Beorning and Captain. Remember, warden is supposed to be main tank class, on character creation screen, there are two classes with defensive role, warden and guardian.
I know everyone will hate me, but I have to say it. Bigest issue in tank class balance is Captain. Yellow captain's survivability and utility is superior, captain tank is must have in higher tier raids, so for other tank classes, only one free tank spot remains and this must be changed. Either captain's survivability or utility in yellow line have to be reduced. Nerf captain tank, so all tank classes will compete for 2 tank spots in raid. Things like in combat res, revealing/telling mark and motivation buff should not be in tank's arsenal, especialy if it is combined with high damage reduction, highest incomming healing, strong self heal and highest morale pool in game, with panic skills like Last Stand, Shield of Dunedain.

True.BUT I really hate nerfing classes to make other classes stronger...It is OKAY that most take 2 cappys but maybe we have to go back to the times when it was a blue and a red capy and not a yellow and a red cappy...Many capys actually want a strong blue line back. The "good" thing is that the cap really does not have the best aggro skills for bigger groups.

We have that issue with RKs also. RKS are DDs but are able to rezz 2 players in fight with "Do Not Fall This Day". Do I want this nerfed because Hunters cannot do that? Well...not really because it helps a lot in raid^^

Sooo ATM I am more in for a buff for the warden and not for a nerf of another class. I can nearly chant it: "Panic, longer buffs, higher mits/inc healing!"

[Hildilas]

Update (Even though I have no idea If the forum feedback matters):

T3 is a really different story. What SOME wardens could do in T2 gets way out of hand on T3 again. Stand in the corner for T3 tanking fellow wardens. See ya next raid. Maybe.
I do not want to repeat myself again in terms of what the warden needs to be a good tank again. Everything is written down in several feedback threads.

[XSR2]

Surely blue line need some love from developers, but I think, that changes must be done on other classes too, because some other tank classes are too overpowered, now we have in game 3 off tank classes, which two of them have much better survivability than warden, this classes are Beorning and Captain. Remember, warden is supposed to be main tank class, on character creation screen, there are two classes with defensive role, warden and guardian.
I know everyone will hate me, but I have to say it. Bigest issue in tank class balance is Captain. Yellow captain's survivability and utility is superior, captain tank is must have in higher tier raids, so for other tank classes, only one free tank spot remains and this must be changed. Either captain's survivability or utility in yellow line have to be reduced. Nerf captain tank, so all tank classes will compete for 2 tank spots in raid. Things like in combat res, revealing/telling mark and motivation buff should not be in tank's arsenal, especialy if it is combined with high damage reduction, highest incomming healing, strong self heal and highest morale pool in game, with panic skills like Last Stand, Shield of Dunedain.

Unfortunately, as much as I like the captain, I agree with what Krindel has said; they are a part of the reason the classes are not balanced. I think the first step to fixing the warden in blue line, and by extension tanking in general, would be to limit captain tanking ability to be viable only in 3-mans. If this change were to be made then the possible tanks for three mans would be captains/wardens/guardians. This would mean that roughly a 1/3 classes in the game and therefore 1/3 of the spots in 3-mans would be filled by tanks. I think this distribution is fair, and could be applied the other roles as well, dps, support, AoE dps, and heals. Whereas for six mans the viable tanks should be guardian/warden (2/10 classes), again proportional to the number of tanks a six man will need (1/6). As for raids, which often require 2 tanks, a similar if not the same ratio applies.
As for changes to the warden itself, it should match the guardian in all its basic aspects. A reasonable portion of guard dps skills are AoE, the same should apply for the ward. The same, or at least something similar should be able to be said of their single target dps, threat taking skills (aoe and single target) and maybe also the healing. Guards can heal minimum 20% of their health every minute on their own without any special rotation or planning. Given that wardens do have to plan and prepare perhaps their heals perhaps warden heals should be stronger. And given that wards have automatically lower mits, perhaps they should be given higher morale pools.
These are just a couple of thoughts I think could help. I am curious to see how the warden will change in the upcoming months.

[Vilda]

They should buff other classes, not nerf the "overpowered". That is/was pfilosophy of Blizzard with Diablo 3 and i loved it

[Kander]

They should buff other classes, not nerf the "overpowered". That is/was pfilosophy of Blizzard with Diablo 3 and i loved it

Nerfing all other tanking classes is not gonna help to fix the warden. It's the warden what is broken, not captain/guards. Wardens need some meaningful traits, a good emergency skill apart from the 2pot magnitude of NS and maybe a reduction in single target taunt cd to 30s but that's like not important atm. Also need to have proper buffs, like decent duration ones. Having to literally use every second of a fight just to keep 3 buffs up is silly.

Still warden needs huge rework but some bandaids will just help getting by as a possible tank and they are easy to implement.
Change For the Free peoples to something meaningful like % mit or -% inc damage instead of just 10k mit rating which is nothing, it's one capstone skill and seems pretty useless atm.
Change base duration of buffs to at least 1 minute.
Remove 5% mits from defiant challenge and just make them passive.
Tweak some ratings of some traits/Legacies or change them into a meaningful %.
Those are fixes that gonna take really little time to code and implement as it's just changing numbers. But would really help warden to step up in raid environment.

[Hildilas]

Nerfing all other tanking classes is not gonna help to fix the warden. It's the warden what is broken, not captain/guards. Wardens need some meaningful traits, a good emergency skill apart from the 2pot magnitude of NS and maybe a reduction in single target taunt cd to 30s but that's like not important atm. Also need to have proper buffs, like decent duration ones. Having to literally use every second of a fight just to keep 3 buffs up is silly.

Still warden needs huge rework but some bandaids will just help getting by as a possible tank and they are easy to implement.
Change For the Free peoples to something meaningful like % mit or -% inc damage instead of just 10k mit rating which is nothing, it's one capstone skill and seems pretty useless atm.
Change base duration of buffs to at least 1 minute.
Remove 5% mits from defiant challenge and just make them passive.
Tweak some ratings of some traits/Legacies or change them into a meaningful %.
Those are fixes that gonna take really little time to code and implement as it's just changing numbers. But would really help warden to step up in raid environment.

even though I have no idea how much work this few tweak would be ..by looking at the very fast Mini tweaks this warden tweaks could be Up next week...If they wanted

[Kander]

even though I have no idea how much work this few tweak would be ..by looking at the very fast Mini tweaks this warden tweaks could be Up next week...If they wanted

Maybe the rating adjustments and legacies or traits would require a bit of testing even of it's in a closed alpha only or at least feedback before implementation just to make sure they don't overdo it, but rest is basically changing 1-2 lines of code each. Even if the code itself is a mess and hard to find anything in it, an amateur programmer could do all except the rating scaling in less than 1 afternoon of work. It's mostly replacing a number for another. I'm against releasing deep class changes without proper beta testing and listening to feedback but these are so needed that there's no need for any testing. Replacing warden mits from DC to passive would not increase survivability. Increasing buff duration is easy to implement. Giving a damage reduction or a % MIT to warden from for the free peoples would not be too hard to implement either but would give a meaningful capstone or cooldown (something like 2% MIT per rank that caps at rank 10 with 20% MIT, going from 60 to 80 (guards got still better cooldown so it should not create any problem there).

Healing and DPS lines should get heal/dot pulses increased so there's no need to use old sets but I think that's something that should be included in a more thorough class rework rather than a quick fix.

[Osglinthor]

Maybe the rating adjustments and legacies or traits would require a bit of testing even of it's in a closed alpha only or at least feedback before implementation just to make sure they don't overdo it, but rest is basically changing 1-2 lines of code each. Even if the code itself is a mess and hard to find anything in it, an amateur programmer could do all except the rating scaling in less than 1 afternoon of work. It's mostly replacing a number for another. I'm against releasing deep class changes without proper beta testing and listening to feedback but these are so needed that there's no need for any testing. Replacing warden mits from DC to passive would not increase survivability. Increasing buff duration is easy to implement. Giving a damage reduction or a % MIT to warden from for the free peoples would not be too hard to implement either but would give a meaningful capstone or cooldown (something like 2% MIT per rank that caps at rank 10 with 20% MIT, going from 60 to 80 (guards got still better cooldown so it should not create any problem there).

Healing and DPS lines should get heal/dot pulses increased so there's no need to use old sets but I think that's something that should be included in a more thorough class rework rather than a quick fix.

They can add extra 3 dot pulses to red line immediatly,it would just even us with other DPS specs to some extent.And would change nothing as dots are capped at 32 sec duration so you couldnt use armor for longer dots than that.All they would need to change is lasting impresion from +1 to +4.And work on better class balance when they have time for it however they are way too incompetent to change even 1 number in code so gona have to wait few years for any reasonable fixes.

[Elwha]

When the Warden does get attention my hope is the dev looks solely into red line changes first. The additional DoT pulses are without question needed and IIRC in the last balance pass red line didn't get touched at all. Blue line did. Previously the dev tweaked spear bleeds, however, that work proved mostly pointless as no sane DPS Warden is building rotations around spear over fist skills. My hope is that the next dev will understand that spear skills should be heavily buffed in red line and fist skills heavily buffed in blue line.

I do believe blue line Warden needs work, really a major revamp. It's likely more than SSG is willing to put-forth at this time. A new blue line needs like 3-4 passes of testing to be solid.