Lord of the Rings on Prime

[TesalionLortus]

Only one question I'd want an answer to... "Tell me, where is Celeborn? For I much desire to speak with him."

Nerdrotic seems to have an answer (...either dead or thought to be dead only to make a miraculous come back), but not sure how accurate it is. Sounds legit and like he actually has some kind of source - but then again, I don't really follow the guy to know whether he has history of slippery slips and false teases. In a similar manner, he's also revealed Sauron's identity and some of the Fellowship of Fans recent leaks seem to align pretty well with that information. None of this sounds particularly exciting/surprising and like it was needed in this story, of course...

but in the "wise" words of Elendil: the past is dead. Now that's the kind of Faithful we're getting :P In any case, sounds like the "where is Celeborn" will be a living meme for the entirety of the series...

[Radhruin_EU]

Nerdrotic seems to have an answer (...either dead or thought to be dead only to make a miraculous come back), but not sure how accurate it is. Sounds legit and like he actually has some kind of source - but then again, I don't really follow the guy to know whether he has history of slippery slips and false teases. In a similar manner, he's also revealed Sauron's identity and some of the Fellowship of Fans recent leaks seem to align pretty well with that information. None of this sounds particularly exciting/surprising and like it was needed in this story, of course...

but in the "wise" words of Elendil: the past is dead. Now that's the kind of Faithful we're getting :P In any case, sounds like the "where is Celeborn" will be a living meme for the entirety of the series...

I know Nerdrotic said that, but I was under the impression that the one iron-clad rule of continuity the show had to follow was that they couldn't kill off characters who are still supposed to be around in the Third Age, so the idea of Celeborn being missing presumed dead and then found alive sounds more likely. Mind you that'd still be really dodgy because of the time compression - Celebrian would really need to be around already.

Edit: and that 'the past is dead' line might, in context, be the reaction when Pharazon usurps the throne, leaving the Faithful with no remaining hope that the old ways could be restored and being heavily outnumbered by the King's Men (with most of the population of Numenor being very much against the Valar by that point). And that's before Sauron even turns up...

[Radhruin_EU]

Article in Entertainment Weekly:

https://ew.com/tv/lord-of-the-rings-...lusive-photos/

Passing thoughts:

- Isildur doesn't start out as 'just a young sailor, following in his father Elendil's footsteps' - Elendil is the heir to the Lord of Andúnië, for heaven's sake, from a branch of the royal house that went back to one of the old kings

- the show-runners said they weren't sure how to make Isildur a tragic hero... c'mon guys, that should not be hard, they only need to make it clear to the audience just how powerful the Ring is right then (fresh off Sauron's hand) and that he didn't stand a chance.

- Miriel as 'queen regent' - sorry, what - that's queen regnant (ruling queen)

- that shot of the Numenorean cavalry again - you can tell their armour's just painted leather; you can see that in the photo of Miriel as well where they've even got overlapping layers of painted 'scale' armour. Not a good look

- Elendil as 'just a Numenorean sailor' - if this is accurate, sounds like they're doing the lame thing people do sometimes of trying to downplay noble / royal characters as some sort of humble everyman

- it's not really any mystery how Elendil eventually ends up as one of the captains of the Last Alliance, given just how fancy-pants he is- he'd have been raised from birth to follow in his father's footsteps as one of the great lords of Numenor

- Pharazon and Miriel are meant to be first cousins, so he'd have been second in line to the throne - not just some upstart, it's meant to be a dynastic power-grab, a palace coup and forced marriage (something that should be familiar to audiences from GoT)

- Pharazon has a son now? His lack of a son and heir went along with his fear of death, in the original. Unless kiddo only exists to get killed off to make Pharazon embittered but that hardly seems necessary to the plot

- the "Prince Durin IV" thing is silly, dwarf-boy would just be Prince Durin until his old man snuffs it (they've made it sound like some American dynasty rather than a royal line)

Edit -and where the heck is Anarion? Dude is kind of important later, to put it mildly...

[Altair6]

New video

[miriadel]

let's GOOOOOO Nirnaeth at the beginning? And Jackson style Balrog, hell yeah

[Radhruin_EU]

New video

Finally, a trailer... what with these signs and portents, all we need now is Deckard Cain asking us to stay awhile and listen...

[Kaeneth]

Great, more buzz cut elves and beardless dwarf women along with a montage of moments that are over 90% unrecognizable from anything you'd find in the books.

"Based on the works of J.R.R. Tolkien"....yeah, right. What part?

[Pontin_Finnberry]

Not shown in the Trailer but everyone at Comic Con saw footage of the destruction of the Two Trees of Valinor, and a dark shadow of morgoth's presence.

[Radhruin_EU]

let's GOOOOOO Nirnaeth at the beginning? And Jackson style Balrog, hell yeah

Who knows, impossible to tell whether it's meant to be any specific First Age battle or they've mashed them together just to give an impression. That place does look like it's meant to be the Anfauglith. For sure though, that doesn't match the aftermath of the Nirnaeth as there the Orcs dragged all the slain Elves and Men into a single huge mound, the Hill of Tears. Two of Galadriel's brothers had fallen in the earlier Dagor Bragollach that had created the Anfauglith in the first place, so there's a possible connection there. But I honestly can't think of any point at which anyone would be wandering the Anfauglith out in the open like that (certainly not after the War of Wrath as the landscape itself should be in shattered ruin after that). Not a place to hang around.

As for that Balrog, if it's from the prologue I'm all for it. Like we know to expect crispy fried Feanor and that's just for starters. Any time in the Second Age, though, aw hell no.

[LagunaD2]

- Isildur doesn't start out as 'just a young sailor, following in his father Elendil's footsteps' - Elendil is the heir to the Lord of Andúnië, for heaven's sake, from a branch of the royal house that went back to one of the old kings

Taking an optimistic (and speculative) view of things, lore-wise, the long life-spans of faithful Numenorians mean Elendil would have been an adult long before the fall of Numenor (which happened when he was roughly 200 years old).

Aragorn spent (almost) the first hundred years of his life traveling around and learning about the world. It seems plausible that while Elendil's father and/or grandfathers lived, and ruled as the Lords of Andunie, he could well have been preparing himself in an unassuming manner much as Aragorn later would.

Since Numenor was an island, learning about Middle-earth would have naturally required sea travel.

It's plausible to me that Elendil, and his heirs, were effective captains of men and leaders precisely because they eschewed the sheltered comforts of royalty in their youth, and learned to relate to their subjects' hopes and fears.

[Pontin_Finnberry]

From Reddit for those interested on what the creators said at comic con. Reddit - Some of the things the creators of the show said during the SDCC panel.

[Radhruin_EU]

Taking an optimistic (and speculative) view of things, lore-wise, the long life-spans of faithful Numenorians mean Elendil would have been an adult long before the fall of Numenor (which happened when he was roughly 200 years old).

Aragorn spent (almost) the first hundred years of his life traveling around and learning about the world. It seems plausible that while Elendil's father and/or grandfathers lived, and ruled as the Lords of Andunie, he could well have been preparing himself in an unassuming manner much as Aragorn later would.

Since Numenor was an island, learning about Middle-earth would have naturally required sea travel.

It's plausible to me that Elendil, and his heirs, were effective captains of men and leaders precisely because they eschewed the sheltered comforts of royalty in their youth, and learned to relate to their subjects' hopes and fears.

By the look of things they've simply changed it (they clearly aren't above wholesale rewrites of characters).You can't really look to Aragorn for an example as he wasn't holding off just to travel and learn, he *had* to bide his time and pick the right time to make his claim (when he could get the people to acclaim him as king, after he'd proven his mettle to them) because if he'd tried any sooner then Denethor would simply have rejected it (something he had legal precedent to do as Arvedui's claim had been rejected in favour of Earnil,way back when). You know what Denethor said about Aragorn:

'But I say to thee, Gandalf Mithrandir, I will not be thy tool! I am
Steward of the House of Anárion. I will not step down to be the dotard
chamberlain of an upstart. Even were his claim proved to me, still he comes
but of the line of Isildur. I will not bow to such a one, last of a ragged
house long bereft of lordship and dignity.'

Besides, even if Elendil had gone to sea nobody would describe him as just a sailor. Everyone would know him as the son and heir of the Lord of Andunië. If anything they're maybe relying on you to think "oh, it's just like Aragorn except he's just a sailor instead of just a Ranger" and never mind that Aragorn was never really just anything (except in the movies), he was the chieftain of the Northern Dunedain and had been for many years even while keeping his claim to the throne of Gondor under wraps. (Also Aragorn had another good reason to keep quiet about who he was, he didn't want Sauron finding out about him either until it was time for him to reveal himself).

[LagunaD2]

Besides, even if Elendil had gone to sea nobody would describe him as just a sailor. Everyone would know him as the son and heir of the Lord of Andunië.

If he didn't want his noble heritage to be known, he could have kept it under wraps.

Although I suppose the fact that he was 7' 11" tall would have made him an imposing figure regardless...

He might not have reached full height as early in life as modern people do.

[Radhruin_EU]

If he didn't want his noble heritage to be known, he could have kept it under wraps.

Why should he? Like I said, Aragorn had good reason to hide who he was. By contrast, Elendil had nothing to worry about until Sauron came to Numenor and Ar-Pharazon started actively persecuting the Faithful. And it's not as if Elendil was a young man. he was married and his kids were grown up. (And he was two hundred years old at the time of the Downfall).

He might not have reached full height as early in life as modern people do.

And now you're having to make up something else, and still for no good reason.

[LagunaD2]

Why should he? Like I said, Aragorn had good reason to hide who he was. By contrast, Elendil had nothing to worry about until Sauron came to Numenor and Ar-Pharazon started actively persecuting the Faithful. And it's not as if Elendil was a young man. he was married and his kids were grown up. (And he was two hundred years old at the time of the Downfall).

Perhaps because he valued the opportunity to gain insight into his future subjects by interacting with them as an equal.

This is not such an outlandish idea. Prince Hal hung out with Falstaff and other ne'er-do-wells, and later went among his soldiers in disguise on the eve of battle, after becoming king.

I don't think it's unheard-of in Tolkien's stories for young nobles to be immature or restless, and later settle down into their responsibilities.

I'm just trying to make a "glass half-full" plausibility argument.

Also, one of the latest photos shows Elendil and Galadriel together, doesn't it? That would be hard to understand unless Elendil is somebody with important/powerful connections.

And now you're having to make up something else, and still for no good reason.

Well, we don't know one way or the other.

Middle-earth is supposed to generally have the same physical laws as we do; growing to almost 8-feet tall in 20 years would seem likely to lead to major health problems.

[Radhruin_EU]

Perhaps because he valued the opportunity to gain insight into his future subjects by interacting with them as an equal.

He's not royalty to start with, just high nobility. On top of that while that might have been something to do when he was in his younger days, he's not a young man by the time we first hear about him. Nor is Isildur, for that matter. The series is very different to the original there because they're doing that 'everything everywhere all at once' time-compression thing.

Also, one of the latest photos shows Elendil and Galadriel together, doesn't it? That would be hard to understand unless Elendil is somebody with important/powerful connections.

Depends how they meet, doesn't it. Like if it's Elendil who rescues her and what's-his-face after their shipwreck.

[Daeborn]

There is no-way this won't be canceled before the fifth season like the rest of these woke shows.
When they are more interested in the actors skincolor and LGBTQ+ representation then a good story its not gonna win any viewers over.
S1E1 are gonna be good. Season 1 kinda ok. Then its gonna be a drag. Just talk and relationdrama. Then canceled when these woke "super-fans" lost intrest. I guess by third season.

[Pontin_Finnberry]

Eh don't think it will be canceled, besides we haven't seen anything much yet until the series fully releases, I recently saw reddit post linking tons of stuff from the year 2000 and 2001 about Peter Jackson and that hes a terrible director and many other things before we've seen it, no different then with this series we haven't really seen yet, (also yes PJ made changes but great films).

Anyway here's an interview with Ckark on Welsh but for first min is an extended clip from the series.

[Radhruin_EU]

Eh don't think it will be canceled, besides we haven't seen anything much yet until the series fully releases, I recently saw reddit post linking tons of stuff from the year 2000 and 2001 about Peter Jackson and that hes a terrible director and many other things before we've seen it, no different then with this series we haven't really seen yet, (also yes PJ made changes but great films).

This is very different. You could watch the trailer for FOTR without going 'what the hell is even that' all the time - sure there were purists to whom any change was anathema but you get those in any fandom. When I watched FOTR the first time around I got straight away why they'd done things like compressing the early timescale a bit, leaving out Bombadil, giving Arwen a bigger part etc. and it was only a few things like making Gimli the light relief ("Nobody tosses a Dwarf!" etc.) that I thought were bogus. There's really no comparison between that and RoP things like, say, compressing most of the Second Age into next to no time, making Galadriel an action hero, apparently disappearing her husband and daughter, making Elrond look like a wuss, the short hair for Elves thing, the ropy costumes, having hobbits wandering about way too soon, having hobbits as intentional nomads (and nomadic farmers at that, which is contradictory), rewriting characters all over the place, race-swapping characters almost at random, having hobbits being unaccountably multi-ethnic, making Miriel a warrior queen, giving the Numenoreans a bunch of cavalry (contradictory for an island nation and where Tolkien actually said they didn't have many horses), et cetera and that's just what can be gleaned from the promo material, never mind actually watching the series.

And most of all, PJ made a point of *not* bringing any agenda of his own to the LOTR movies, nor trying to have them reflect modernity in any way. And in both cases RoP is doing the exact opposite. Not to mention that PJ had already shown he was up to doing something major (and so had Fran Walsh) whereas RoP's show-runners have done what, exactly? Nothing even remotely close.

[Aranaan]

This is very different. You could watch the trailer for FOTR without going 'what the hell is even that' all the time - sure there were purists to whom any change was anathema but you get those in any fandom. When I watched FOTR the first time around I got straight away why they'd done things like compressing the early timescale a bit, leaving out Bombadil, giving Arwen a bigger part etc. and it was only a few things like making Gimli the light relief ("Nobody tosses a Dwarf!" etc.) that I thought were bogus. There's really no comparison between that and RoP things like, say, compressing most of the Second Age into next to no time, making Galadriel an action hero, apparently disappearing her husband and daughter, making Elrond look like a wuss, the short hair for Elves thing, the ropy costumes, having hobbits wandering about way too soon, having hobbits as intentional nomads (and nomadic farmers at that, which is contradictory), rewriting characters all over the place, race-swapping characters almost at random, having hobbits being unaccountably multi-ethnic, making Miriel a warrior queen, giving the Numenoreans a bunch of cavalry (contradictory for an island nation and where Tolkien actually said they didn't have many horses), et cetera and that's just what can be gleaned from the promo material, never mind actually watching the series.

And most of all, PJ made a point of *not* bringing any agenda of his own to the LOTR movies, nor trying to have them reflect modernity in any way. And in both cases RoP is doing the exact opposite. Not to mention that PJ had already shown he was up to doing something major (and so had Fran Walsh) whereas RoP's show-runners have done what, exactly? Nothing even remotely close.

Spot on!
You do not need to be a purist to support these arguments.

But it seems the series have two types of followers (broadly speaking) so far: Those who are just happy that new lotr content are released, whatever quality.
And then we have those who love the orginial work of the author, and does not like it being tampered with. And what we have seen so far of RoP, they have taken a sledgehammer to the authors work. You cannot say that PJ did that.

[JustDooIt]

Allegory - this 'show' is rank with it.

[miriadel]

love the aesthetic for numenor

[Radhruin_EU]

love the aesthetic for numenor

I'm getting less keen the more I see of it.

That top shot - it's an unsubtle callback to LOTR, with the verticality of Minas Tirith and that same 'pier' sticking out - in MT that was just how the rock happened to stick out from the mountain behind it so they'd built out onto it, here the whole thing's masonry. There's also a tower over on the right of the hall (just like in MT in the movies). It's not as if the Numenoreans were attached to building cities in awkward places just for show - MT looked the way it did because it was a fortress-city, and Osgiliath would have been very different.

Middle shot - I don't like the odd ship designs with the weird rigging. By the look of it they've borrowed some design elements from big Roman galleys for the sterns of those ships but those look odd on sailing ships (especially as these have rudders rather than two steering-oars like Roman ships did). Also, asset spam (the exact same ship model repeated).

Also, looking at the people, forced modern diversity in an 'ancient' setting is silly (there's what looks like a Chinese couple in there, among others) and that doesn't fit with either the idea of Numenor or the legend of Atlantis. Whatever else, Tolkien's Numenor was definitely not meant to be a melting-pot for people from all over the place - the dynamic was very much the Numenoreans being colonisers and keeping ordinary folks at arm's length. Now you'd think Tolkien's firmly anti-colonial take would have fitted the zeitgeist pretty well as-is: the Numenoreans, once they took to the seas, started out as enlightened explorers but over the centuries, as they lost faith, they became more and more given to colonialism and exploitation (driven by arrogance and a sense of racial superiority). Tolkien was absolutely no fan of colonialism or imperialism (he'd been very much against the British Empire as an institution on account of the things it had got up to, and had equal disdain for the Commonwealth) and so it's unsurprising to see him show colonialism and exploiting other peoples as symptomatic of a civilisation losing its way. But no, the show-runners will doubtless do the idealised 'happy diversity' thing instead (complete with Miriel as strong diverse female leader) until the place gets taken over by old white dude Pharazon who I bet you will be suddenly racist and fascistic (and never mind that as Tolkien had it the majority of the Numenoreans had been racist for a long time before that, and that the King's Men were already the dominant force in Numenorean politics and among the population generally long before Pharazon took over or Sauron arrived).

That last shot - like the first one, excessive verticality for effect (just how high is that embankment or sea-wall or whatever it is on the left, it's got to be over a hundred feet high and stuff just keeps going up from there) and the ships look impractical.

[Schattenhand]

I feel like the hanging horse in picture two. I want to like it, but so far i can't.

[Bakenellan]

I'm getting less keen the more I see of it.

Also, looking at the people, forced modern diversity in an 'ancient' setting is silly (there's what looks like a Chinese couple in there, among others) and that doesn't fit with either the idea of Numenor or the legend of Atlantis. Whatever else, Tolkien's Numenor was definitely not meant to be a melting-pot for people from all over the place - the dynamic was very much the Numenoreans being colonisers and keeping ordinary folks at arm's length.

The major ports would still be very diverse places in a world-spanning colonizing empire. I don't remember any statements that Numenoreans forbade entrance to their island at that period though I would imagine they would keep "lesser humans" out of finer neighborhoods. So I don't see people diversity on that shot as wrong by itself.

Unfortunately that does not invalidate your main point...