Lord of the Rings on Prime

[Radhruin_EU]

The major ports would still be very diverse places in a world-spanning colonizing empire. I don't remember any statements that Numenoreans forbade entrance to their island at that period though I would imagine they would keep "lesser humans" out of finer neighborhoods. So I don't see people diversity on that shot as wrong by itself.

Unfortunately that does not invalidate your main point...

The original idea appeared to be very much that the Numenoreans sailed to Middle-earth and brought stuff back, rather than people. It wasn't a normal situation as the Numenoreans were just plain different to other Men, far more skilled and learned (because they'd learned everything the Elves could teach them) as well as having longer lives etc. What's described is them first appearing to Men in Middle-earth as kindly 'helpers and teachers' and then later (after their loss of faith in the Valar) as 'lords and masters and gatherers of tribute' who sought 'wealth and dominion'.

If we're seeing a rich and glorious Numenor then that had come as a consequence of how they'd already been exploiting Middle-earth. That's where all that wealth and power came from. Most of their ships were built with timber from Middle-earth. They weren't being even-handed about it; they saw lordship over other Men as their right, by that time. Of course when Sauron got his hooks into them it all got much worse but still, Numenor at the time they're portraying should be a full-on colonial power. The time-compression thing and the wholesale changes are making a complete mess of things: Numenor was already a great power by the time Sauron came up with his scheme for the Rings of Power, and they were able to offer military assistance to the Elves because they'd built up the wherewithal to defend their own colonial holdings. In other words, the Elves didn't need to send anyone to Numenor in order to ask for help as the Numenoreans already had forces present in Middle-earth and could send messages of their own back home, and the wealth and power they'd acquired by exploiting Middle-earth had allowed them to arm themselves to the teeth.

And don't forget, the majority of the people you see in any crowd scene in Numenor are going to die in biblical fashion when Iluvatar drops the hammer on the place. From a story-telling point of view it'd be harsh indeed if Iluvatar blew away a whole bunch of regular folk who just happened to be there, rather than the Numenoreans themselves who'd been Very Naughty and thus brought their own doom on themselves. So from Tolkien's perspective it appeared to be very much Numenor for Numenoreans, as it were, with the other peoples who'd once lived there (Elves and Druedain) having long since left as a result of how the shadow had fallen over the place.

[Bakenellan]

And don't forget, the majority of the people you see in any crowd scene in Numenor are going to die in biblical fashion when Iluvatar drops the hammer on the place. From a story-telling point of view it'd be harsh indeed if Iluvatar blew away a whole bunch of regular folk who just happened to be there, rather than the Numenoreans themselves who'd been Very Naughty and thus brought their own doom on themselves. So from Tolkien's perspective it appeared to be very much Numenor for Numenoreans, as it were, with the other peoples who'd once lived there (Elves and Druedain) having long since left as a result of how the shadow had fallen over the place.

That's I think is a good point in favor of keeeping 'Numenor for Numenorians" so to speak, I have to agree. I am afraid it is too fine a point to take for Amazon though. They so far demonstrated a finesse of a sledgehammer.

[Radhruin_EU]

That's I think is a good point in favor of keeeping 'Numenor for Numenorians" so to speak, I have to agree. I am afraid it is too fine a point to take for Amazon though. They so far demonstrated a finesse of a sledgehammer.

Besides, all that was assuming it'll still be divine intervention that destroys Numenor and they don't change that as well. We really can't take anything as a given.

[TesalionLortus]

That top shot - it's an unsubtle callback to LOTR, with the verticality of Minas Tirith and that same 'pier' sticking out

The PJ MT "call back" is cheap and needless but nevertheless the city design is one of the most appealing elements I liked so far. The Byzantine inspiration and blending of elven/men styles, with aqueducts running all over the place, is just 1) cool, taking inspiration from irl history, from cultures Numenor would be reflection of (that includes Venice too) 2) it's not trying to be like PJ and not trying to say this architectural style leads directly to PJ's Gondorian one. It's different which is nice, would love to see something like this in Tolkien-inspired game modifications.
But yeah unfortunaly they didn't leave it at that and still needed to include these subtle "call backs" with the pier and tower even though the architectural style is overall different

Middle shot - I don't like the odd ship designs with the weird rigging. By the look of it they've borrowed some design elements from big Roman galleys for the sterns of those ships but those look odd on sailing ships (especially as these have rudders rather than two steering-oars like Roman ships did). Also, asset spam (the exact same ship model repeated).

The most "interesting" one actually. This one is the demonstration of how their creative team works, sadly. They got the city layout somehow right/interesting (mostly) by taking historical inspiration but then for ships let's just do whatever because we fancy it - the same guy who designed the city revealed he was just staring at the crown of Gondor from PJ's movies and then randomly came up with this "eureka!" idea that the shape of it might be turned into a sail that's super unique and unlike iconic elven ones... only THEN they invited some ship experts and asked them whether this would work and be sailable and they were like "it's tricky but could work somehow with effort" which the creatives behind this show think pass for "so it's workable for a nation focused on sea voyage!" (nevermind the colonialist part of their long sea ventures and port garrisons). Ships should have been more functional, with something that we know could work well enough from historical examples. Also, they look ridiculous now, simply put... uniqueness alone is no appeal at all if it makes something look ridiculous. If they love PJ hints so much they could have just found a middle-ground between PJ's Corsair style and elven one. Like with plenty of other stuff on this show, there are the hell lot of fanarts that look better than stuff they come up with.

Then again... with what was revealed so far it is most likely their "colonial" presence does not even exist on this show in any early shape nor form so my headcanon might as well be their sailors were so freaking done with these stupid sails their Kings thought were cool they've never even managed to sail far and wide, thus the elves beat them to "ordering" lesser peoples of Middle-earth (makes sense why Sauron would be inactive for so long too... he is scared of those mighty elves sticking their Arondir overseer everywhere not to mention OP Galadriel chasing after him for thousands of years poor Maya must be so tired was so much easier under Morgoth :P) .

The major ports would still be very diverse places in a world-spanning colonizing empire.

I wouldn't mind such diversity at Numenor's ports if they got all of that other stuff and themes right... but yeah, in general what Radh said and in the end it's Numenoreans who were supposed to be skilled sailors (not the locals from Middle-earth) so there wouldn't be lots of non-Numenorean crewed vessels arriving in Numenor even if those were allowed to begin with... Also, if they wanted that kind of *diversity hot spot and crossroad* they could have just used... like... UMBAR? Where you can inject some colonial politics and tensions? You know, the place where the monument after the humiliation of Sauron by Ar-Pharazon used to stand? It just screams to be made the main hub. Not using Umbar here is like the most dumbass idea ever... but so is Galadriel's jump against the troll from the tip of a two-handed sword that this due is able to casually handle with one hand so all hope is lost clearly :P I've seen a YouTuber who compared this scene to examples of extreme forms of Bollywood... uh, they were not wrong

it's unsurprising to see him show colonialism and exploiting other peoples as symptomatic of a civilisation losing its way. But no, the show-runners will doubtless do the idealised 'happy diversity' thing instead (complete with Miriel as strong diverse female leader) until the place gets taken over by old white dude Pharazon who I bet you will be suddenly racist and fascistic (and never mind that as Tolkien had it the majority of the Numenoreans had been racist for a long time before that, and that the King's Men were already the dominant force in Numenorean politics and among the population generally long before Pharazon took over or Sauron arrived).

The original idea appeared to be very much that the Numenoreans sailed to Middle-earth and brought stuff back, rather than people. It wasn't a normal situation as the Numenoreans were just plain different to other Men, far more skilled and learned (because they'd learned everything the Elves could teach them) as well as having longer lives etc. What's described is them first appearing to Men in Middle-earth as kindly 'helpers and teachers' and then later (after their loss of faith in the Valar) as 'lords and masters and gatherers of tribute' who sought 'wealth and dominion'.

If we're seeing a rich and glorious Numenor then that had come as a consequence of how they'd already been exploiting Middle-earth. That's where all that wealth and power came from. Most of their ships were built with timber from Middle-earth. They weren't being even-handed about it; they saw lordship over other Men as their right, by that time. Of course when Sauron got his hooks into them it all got much worse but still, Numenor at the time they're portraying should be a full-on colonial power. The time-compression thing and the wholesale changes are making a complete mess of things: Numenor was already a great power by the time Sauron came up with his scheme for the Rings of Power, and they were able to offer military assistance to the Elves because they'd built up the wherewithal to defend their own colonial holdings. In other words, the Elves didn't need to send anyone to Numenor in order to ask for help as the Numenoreans already had forces present in Middle-earth and could send messages of their own back home, and the wealth and power they'd acquired by exploiting Middle-earth had allowed them to arm themselves to the teeth.

Amen. All of this not being an actual part of the acknowledged dynamics behind Numenor in a show resolving around Numenor (neverminded with it being directly contradicted!) is why I wouldn't be able to say anything good about the show in the first place, even if they got elves and dwarves right (and they won't... most likely)

[Pontin_Finnberry]

Some new Articles by Time Magazine.

Time - The Secretive, Extravagant, Bighearted World of The Rings of Power, the Most Expensive Show Ever Made
Time - 11 Rings of Power Secrets We Learned From the Cast and Creators
Time - Exclusive: This Fan-Favorite Character Is Joining the Second Season of The Rings of Power
Time - The Rings of Power Exclusive: Producer Says Fan Theories About Sauron Are Wrong

[Radhruin_EU]

Some new Articles by Time Magazine.

Time - The Secretive, Extravagant, Bighearted World of The Rings of Power, the Most Expensive Show Ever Made
Time - 11 Rings of Power Secrets We Learned From the Cast and Creators
Time - Exclusive: This Fan-Favorite Character Is Joining the Second Season of The Rings of Power
Time - The Rings of Power Exclusive: Producer Says Fan Theories About Sauron Are Wrong

Same old stuff... never thought of Cirdan as a 'fan favourite', either.

If we could get through one interview without one of the cast banging on about representation I would be delighted.

P.S.

Rings of Power: "You can't have half your cast dying every two episodes."

House of the Dragon: "Hold my beer."

[TesalionLortus]

Lots of text, nothing new said, just more and more self-indulgence. Oh well... Cirdan in season 2 they say

Also, the Eminem cultist guy is supposed to be from goddamn Rhun yet another strange surprise.. not sure if I buy it ethnically/their looks LOL. How do they manage to make actual people from ethnically diverse areas in Tolkien so generic and boring (not even Nazanin Boniadi's irl Middle-eastern ethnic features are as visibly exposed in Bronwyn as they could have otherwise been with different makeup/cultural style) while they literally push irl diversity/ethnical features with Numenoreans, Harfoots or Khazad-dum down our throats? Even despite the time compression and all the plot changes how mentally confused you need to be to come up with the idea of doing everything backward and opposite like this

[Radhruin_EU]

Also, the Eminem cultist guy is supposed to be from goddamn Rhun yet another strange surprise.. not sure if I buy it ethnically/their looks LOL.

That's a woman, her name is Bridie Sisson (people had sussed that long before it was confirmed in the press). But there's nothing actually wrong with Easterlings looking like that because some of them would be Middle-earth's equivalent of Slavs.

But generally, yeah, the casting is in no way internally consistent (much like it wasn't in Wheel of Time, either).

[TesalionLortus]

That's a woman, her name is Bridie Sisson (people had sussed that long before it was confirmed in the press). But there's nothing actually wrong with Easterlings looking like that because some of them would be Middle-earth's equivalent of Slavs.

Slavs could work though I doubt they would be able to make an effective distinction, or show cultists from different parts of what constitutes their East each with their own cultural/ethnic characteristics rather than put into one bag

Well, sure, irl Eminem is a guy though :P so already a dude in my headcanon + Bridie Sisson, at least here, looks (and sounds if the line from trailer is hers?) like she might as well play a dude with softer features (weather she is like lgbt+ or something, trans or whatever, I have no idea literally don't know who she is but I wouldn't put it beyond the capabilities of this show's casting so... curious)

[LagunaD2]

You guys all follow this more closely than I do, but long ago I thought I read one of the show-runners say that Sauron/Annatar won't be in Season 1 at all.

I imagine the final S1 episode will be a cliff-hangar/teaser leading to his appearance in the opener of S2.

[TesalionLortus]

You guys all follow this more closely than I do, but long ago I thought I read one of the show-runners say that Sauron/Annatar won't be in Season 1 at all.

I imagine the final S1 episode will be a cliff-hangar/teaser leading to his appearance in the opener of S2.

Possibly not as Sauron. It is likely he is there from Ep 1 though and some of us who follow some of the leaks may even safely assume who he is

But yeah, you're right, they did state that some time back, they're lying though their teeth this entire time though... or don't even realize they're lying but this is still lying :P

[Radhruin_EU]

Slavs could work though I doubt they would be able to make an effective distinction, or show cultists from different parts of what constitutes their East each with their own cultural/ethnic characteristics rather than put into one bag

Well, sure, irl Eminem is a guy though :P so already a dude in my headcanon + Bridie Sisson, at least here, looks (and sounds if the line from trailer is hers?) like she might as well play a dude with softer features (weather she is like lgbt+ or something, trans or whatever, I have no idea literally don't know who she is but I wouldn't put it beyond the capabilities of this show's casting so... curious)

Given that they're doing the representation thing it's unsurprising to see someone androgynous. Got to squeeze modernity in somehow. I think they were also going for a creepy ascetic look (like Silas in The Da Vinci Code) - something I saw suggested on reddit and with how they've dyed Bridie Sisson's hair and eyebrows blonde it's reminiscent).

It's also possible that character is a corrupted Elf (they've kept her ears covered and we see her using magic of some kind). But mortal sorcerers were also a thing on Team Sauron, so go figure. (Also to note: in MERP one of the Nazgul was female, so they might run with something like that here too).

As for Sauron: yeah, they're probably going for an "it was Agatha all along" style cliff-hanger where we find out what guise Sauron has taken (or at least one of them) at the end of the season, and then next season it'd be actual Rings of Power time.

[LagunaD2]

Given that they're doing the representation thing it's unsurprising to see someone androgynous. Got to squeeze modernity in somehow.

Hey, it's lore-appropriate - Eowyn was androgynous before it was cool!

./sarc

But still.

[TesalionLortus]

Given that they're doing the representation thing it's unsurprising to see someone androgynous.

Too bad it would be a bad guy, not a female dwarf with a beard...

Ah Silas... oh yes, that comparison makes sense, so maybe

Hmm I could take 6 female Nazgul I guess if they were at least actual queens or something

[Radhruin_EU]

Hey, it's lore-appropriate - Eowyn was androgynous before it was cool!

./sarc

But still.

What I meant is that they've gone for an aggressively modern androgynous look for that RoP character rather than the period look you might expect in an 'ancient' world; it sticks out in a way that looks deliberate.

[LagunaD2]

What I meant is that they've gone for an aggressively modern androgynous look for that RoP character rather than the period look you might expect in an 'ancient' world; it sticks out in a way that looks deliberate.

I suppose, although the "period look" you are thinking of may be a Western European one. Women with shorn hair are not unheard of in history.

I'd say they went for an exotic (and somewhat monastic) look.

Also (speculating), if the character wanted to blend in with men in situations where women would stand out, having cropped hair would facilitate that.

[Radhruin_EU]

I suppose, although the "period look" you are thinking of may be a Western European one. Women with shorn hair are not unheard of in history.

I'd say they went for an exotic (and somewhat monastic) look.

Also (speculating), if the character wanted to blend in with men in situations where women would stand out, having cropped hair would facilitate that.

Damn straight it's European, that's a clipper cut and that means modern.

Also what she's wearing and that elaborate staff she's carrying don't look like anyone trying to be incognito, they look ceremonial, like something a priestess would wear (which is almost certainly the idea).

[TesalionLortus]

Just in case someone is interested... the full OST of the show is out. I'm just listening to it right now and oh, already much to say about it... All in all, a lot of it sounds just "fantasy" that could easily end up in many of the games I play whether open world or platform game with cool art. Like Nori, such a great example - oh uh, a jungle maybe, child of the forest from Tarzan movie? Either way, wherever your imagination takes you, I would say it has nothing "hobbitsy' about it at all. Harfoot Life sounds like it's trying... but still not sure about this. Numenor theme is interesting too... and sounds a bit too much like it could be a movie about Crusaders, kinda too oriental (without being very specific as far as a "theme" goes) and like something that could maybe play at Harad or places like Umbar, but since there is no Umbar and Numenoreans aren't a colonial empire here (instead the elves are the land empire!)... well

The main theme (In the Beginning, or some Galadriel cues) are really nice and epic, but still - it IS good OST by McCreary, yes, but nothing "too Middle-earth" in my ears. Take Chance Thomas and Bill Champagne from SSG, they can explore magic and folklore of Middle-earth but provide lots of high epic Tolkien tension (and catchy dread for some of the most terrible bad guys) - Amazon should have hired them but then of course they also need a good script for the show first... because OST alone can't do it

Also, turned out Tirharad/Southlands is in Mordor near Nurn, based on the recent news, and based on photos will include some very black-skinned people as well. Bah, that's not all, I was 100% right - Arondir's actor outright said in the interview humans of the Southlands are under occupation of the elves and there are racial tensions, with people of Tirharad aspiring for freedom. Charming, huh? This show won't include Harad nor Umbar (in any case, certainly not as they were described in Tolkien, natives under Numenorian/Sauron influence) based on everything we know as of now, and if people can't see how goddamn racist THAT is... well, just a thought :P But sure, tokenized "first female dwarf!!!!" that happens to be black is "better" and "diversity" to be sure..

PS: HAHA, sorry not sorry but... Bronwyn and Arondir theme just started playing, I expected something, idk, romantic and dramatic probably but instead it sounds like... Tarzan from the jungle of Far Harad and his girl, lmaof (I can already bet this is the weakest track in the album, Kili and Tauriel are going to look like it's the poetry unfolding next to this one)

[miriadel]

I liked most of it. Some tracks more than others, the Harfoot theme is the kind of happy tune that I truly enjoy, while the more slow, somber ones I tend to fast-forward. For contrast, while I like Bill Champagne's work I never liked Chance Thomas' much. Especially his Rohan themes, I can't stand them. Just because he worked for ssg doesn't make all of his music flawless, same with people idolizing Howard Shore, he is not the end all be all of Middle Earth musicians. I feel like most just say that it sounds generic fantasy simply because they are already prejudiced against the serie as a whole.

[TesalionLortus]

I feel like most just say that it sounds generic fantasy simply because they are already prejudiced against the serie as a whole.

It gets better in later parts of the soundtrack since I just got to the end. Overall, while ALL music is good, in terms of something special/Middle Earth for me it would be more or less Good Guys = neh, something I hear mostly everywhere and not specific enough, in a style that doesn't stick here and not characteristic enough, Bad Guys/Action = these get better and could rival other things from adapted Middle-earth with gentle influences here and there but also original enough. Oh, and as I said, some elven pieces/the main theme, these sound nice enough (too bad it'll be warrior Galadriel 24h a day with these cues in background)

[Radhruin_EU]

but since there is no Umbar and Numenoreans aren't a colonial empire here (instead the elves are the land empire!)... well

Unless the Numenoreans are going to turn into full-blown conquistadores the second Pharazon takes over. (Because that's the sort of clunky on-the-nose reference I can easily imagine these dweebs making).

Besides, even if the High Elves had been inclined to occupy vast swathes of land and rule over Men (something that needless to say they never, ever seemed to be interested in doing as Tolkien had it) then it'd surely have been in Eriador.

Also, turned out Tirharad/Southlands is in Mordor near Nurn

It was kind of obvious because that was the only reason that Sauron would have any interest in the place. Oh dear, they're all dead. What a shame.

,based on the recent news, and based on photos will include some very black-skinned people as well

Because of course it does, it'll be like WoT - "some of everything" idealised modern diversity even though that makes zero sense.

Bah, that's not all, I was 100% right - Arondir's actor outright said in the interview humans of the Southlands are under occupation of the elves and there are racial tensions, with people of Tirharad aspiring for freedom.

With Arondir at the 'Elf of Colour' who sides with them? Oh for the love of Eru, if that's true then that's awful. But on the plus side when Sauron turns up, lights a volcano under their butts (or whatever's going on in the 'Cheetos' scene - obviously it's the Flamin' Hot ones, lol) and blows the place up we can take evil delight in that.

I think we should cheer on Sauron, who's with me?

But sure, tokenized "first female dwarf!!!!" that happens to be black is "better" and "diversity" to be sure..

All the more tokenised given how little she's apparently in the series. Oh, and don't forget that she's also decidedly plus-sized for extra intersectionality.

(If they let the Balrog loose in Moria as another call-back then I'm going to cheer that on too! And I'm so looking forward to the memes from all of this).

[TesalionLortus]

Unless the Numenoreans are going to turn into full-blown conquistadores the second Pharazon takes over. (Because that's the sort of clunky on-the-nose reference I can easily imagine these dweebs making).

To make things more interesting maybe it's the hated elves they're going to invade on the shores of Middle Earth so it'll be War of Sauron and the elves except both orcs (Adar's army leftovers I mean...) and Pharazon's Numenoreans side with Sauron :P (like seriously, with that kind of well-developed city what do they have to gain from some forgotten men settlements... better to sack Lindon!). Arondir's actor said he's been preparing for his "elvness" by studying native American chiefs so maybe there is a connection we don't fully grasp yet :P

blows the place up we can take evil delight in that.

I think we should cheer on Sauron, who's with me?

(If they let the Balrog loose in Moria as another call-back then I'm going to cheer that on too! And I'm so looking forward to the memes from all of this).

Yes, the one thing that is at least reliable. Also, watch him turn all the cast members into Nazgul just for the fun of it, maybe. Even *someone's who probably is Sauron* faces on the promo materials are like "hold my beer, I'll do it because I have no idea what I'm doing here" VS everyone else trying to take themselves super super seriously... oh, but who knows, maybe the Eminem girl will grow on me too, seems like she gets some hardcore evil tunes and if what I've seen about finale is true... it'll be a meme drug (...battle of the cultists with Harfoots and I guess ents might take part in it too, why not).

And yes, Balrog will destroy Khazad-dum most likely... based on some tracks which did include some gentle call backs to Shore's ominous themes from the chase in Khazad-dum, In the Mines and some others. They wouldn't be delving so heavily into these themes with dwarves and wouldn't show us that balrog if that wasn't the case. One thing that would be hilarious though is if Disa had a one on one with a balrog or something...

[Bakenellan]

One thing that would be hilarious though is if Disa had a one on one with a balrog or something...

And defeat him for awakening too early.

[Dervacus]

Slavs could work though I doubt they would be able to make an effective distinction, or show cultists from different parts of what constitutes their East each with their own cultural/ethnic characteristics rather than put into one bag

Well, sure, irl Eminem is a guy though :P so already a dude in my headcanon + Bridie Sisson, at least here, looks (and sounds if the line from trailer is hers?) like she might as well play a dude with softer features (weather she is like lgbt+ or something, trans or whatever, I have no idea literally don't know who she is but I wouldn't put it beyond the capabilities of this show's casting so... curious)

There is a track titled "Sauron" on the first season soundtrack

[Arantha]

New Trailer is out:
2. Trailer von Ringe der Macht veröffentlicht


https://funkenflug.ag/2-trailer-von-ringe-der-macht-erschienen/