@Vastin - Beorning Tank Needs a Nerf

[Iluvata]

Hello Lotro Team,

I hope that you will take a moment to hear my thoughts on the state of the Beorning class. I will keep it short, but can expand on my thoughts if you would like. I know there isn’t much chatter about nerfing the tank line, but this is partly because there are still so few players with a Beorning at cap level.

I believe the Beorning tank-line is too powerful at the current time, outclassing all other tanks (even the Guardian).

First, we are able to achieve a staggering 75% physical mitigation. A physical hit that would inflict 150,000 to a Guardian would inflict only 125,000 to us. This size hit would inflict an astounding 200,000 to a Captain tank. Not only do we take 20% less physical damage than a Guardian class, but we are able to achieve morale levels rivaling that of Captain tanks. Well geared Beornings and Captains can have close to 400k morale, whereas a Guardian struggles to reach 300k.

Second, we have far too powerful self-heals. I am able to easily achieve over 10k heals per second on myself (16k with Thickened Hide). Combined with the ease of which enemies can be kited, this makes us extremely survivable in certain boss fights, even on T2/3 difficulty. Further combined with the higher mitigations, this makes us nearly indestructible.

Third, we have far too many force taunts. I avidly play all 5 tank classes (yes, that includes champ and warden), and I can say with certainty that maintaining aggro on a Beorning is too easy. We have access to three AOE taunts on very short cooldowns. If chained properly, it becomes literally impossible to lose aggro on enemies. Even if we do (which we don’t), we can use our ranged single-target taunt to pull them back. Furthermore, two of our taunts confer large incoming healing bonuses. Given the sturdiness of the class, this seems excessive.

Fourth, we are able to chain our 20 second long +10% evade buff into a 25s Thickened Hide back into another 20 second long +10+ evade buff. This rotation makes the Beornings “emergency skills” last longer than that of a Guardian and Captain, and mitigate more damage over that period of time.

Fifth, we are able to provide the Armour Crush and Bee Swarm debuffs onto our targets, vastly increasing the damage our fellowship does. While these buffs do not match those that a Captain provides, they are still present while a Guardian does not provide any buffs/debuffs of value to increase a fellowships DPS.

Sixth, we have two interrupts on relatively short cooldowns. This far outclasses the Captain interrupt, and also surpasses the Guardian interrupts, as one of their interrupts is locked behind a series of response skills.

Seventh, our Down But Not Out passive skills is currently broken. Regardless of which form you are in, it will provide a 20% morale heal when you reach 20% morale. This equates to a free 70k heal every time you drop below 20% (on a one minute cooldown).

The recent changes to the Beorning have had a number of important effects in the game.

(1) Captain tanks have become obsolete. We are only taken for our ability to keep up a second mark/banner. We take far too much damage compared to the other tanks, given our lack of Mitigations.
(2) Guardians have lost their ability to serve as viable main tanks. Friends of mine are not even let into the Anvil T2/3 anymore on guard if beornings are available. We cannot aggro as well as a Beorning. We cannot provide any boosts to our group. And a Bear is far more survivable.

I am not suggesting a large nerf, but some aspects of the Beorning tank should be looked at again. I have no incentive to play my other tanks when I can just stand there on Beorning and rotate taunts to easily maintain aggro while being more survivable than the other tanks simply because of my passive Mitigations and massive self-heals.

The class currently is sure fun to play, but it takes absolutely no skill for how powerful it is. It is so powerful that it can reliably tank T3 Glimmerdeep without a healer. Guardians can also do this, though it is much more difficult.

Despite personally playing a Beorning tank, I believe that we are too powerful at this time. That is why I am asking you to consider a nerf of the Beorning tank. You have done a good job scaling back the Healing Beorning, and I think its time to look at the Tank line too. I would love to at least hear your feedback!

Thank you!

[dsltn07]

I stopped posting, but I will post to say that you’re first of all delusional, and second of all you don’t know what you’re talking about.

First, guardians get fortifications which keeps BOTH of their physical and tactical mits at 75%, so no, your math is entirely wrong and Beos do take more damage than guards. Further, Beo does not get a shield which severely hurts our morale, armor, crit defense, and tac mit values in comparison.

10k self heals is only done with recuperate AND hearten up. Hearten cannot always be up due to bear form armor/morale constraints. Comparatively, guards heal far more with catch a breath.

Our aoe force taunt thunderous has less range than guardians challenge, making drakeling spawns far more difficult on Beo. Biting edge requires man form which is a massive disadvantage, and maul is a 30s cooldown with a high wrath cost. Regarding the self healing and inc. healing self buffs, guardians have far far more self buffs. This isn’t excessive considering we only have one cooldown skill.

Counter is an extremely weak “cooldown” skill if you want to consider it that.

Armor crush and bee swarm are THE reason Beo tank is useful. If you remove or nerf these then Beo tank will no longer be competitive. You’re being ridiculous.

Interrupts: What?! You are delusional. Armor crush cannot be counted since it must always be reapplies, and this always on cooldown. Vicious claws is a 12s cd. Neither of those is a “short” cooldown either.

If you proc down but not out at 20% morale, you’re dead anyways in T2/3. If mobs are doing enough damage to get you that low they’re going to oneshot you with the next crit. 70k morale every 60s is a mere 1.1k morale per second, effectively nothing.

I forgot to add in response to Beo tank being a better kite tank: Rush is the worst sprint skill for all the tank classes. Guardian sprint for example ignores combat state effects, and allows them to run through slow debuffs like you get from anvil drakes. If you are slowed by a drake with rush up, you’re dead. This is ignoring the fact that its bonus is 35% lower.

I also play Beo tank, and it’s much more difficult to play well than you let on. T3 glimmer is a poor measure. Get back to me once you main tank T3 anvil, then we can talk about nerfs. If anything, we need QoL improvements and bug fixes. Further, I’d argue we need another effective cooldown skill.

[Iluvata]

I stopped posting, but I will post to say that you’re first of all delusional, and second of all you don’t know what you’re talking about.

First, guardians get fortifications which keeps BOTH of their physical and tactical mits at 75%, so no, your math is entirely wrong and Beos do take more damage than guards. Further, Beo does not get a shield which severely hurts our morale, armor, and tac mit values in comparison.

10k self heals is only done with recuperate AND hearten up. Hearten cannot always be up due to bear form armor/morale constraints. Comparatively, guards heal far more with catch a breath.

Our aoe force taunt thunderous has less range than guardians challenge, making drakeling spawns far more difficult on Beo. Biting edge requires man form which is a massive disadvantage, and maul is a 30s cooldown with a high wrath cost. Regarding the self healing and inc. healing self buffs, guardians have far far more self buffs. This isn’t excessive considering we only have one cooldown skill.

Counter is an extremely weak “cooldown” skill if you want to consider it that.

Armor crush and bee swarm are THE reason Beo tank is useful. If you remove or nerf these then Beo tank will no longer be competitive. You’re being ridiculous.

Interrupts: What?! You are delusional. Armor crush cannot be counted since it must always be reapplies, and this always on cooldown. Vicious claws is a 12s cd. Neither of those is a “short” cooldown either.

If you proc down but not out at 20% morale, you’re dead anyways in T2/3. If mobs are doing enough damage to get you that low they’re going to oneshot you with the next crit. 70k morale every 60s is a mere 1.1k morale per second, effectively nothing.

I also play Beo tank, and it’s much more difficult to play well than you let on. T3 glimmer is a poor measure. Get back to me once you main tank T3 anvil, then we can talk about nerfs. If anything, we need QoL improvements and bug fixes. Further, I’d argue we need another effective cooldown skill.

Guardians Fortifications build to 10%, giving guards 70% physical and tactical mitigations, not 75%.

Beornings get 30% morale and 20% amour value boosts in Bear form. If you actually had a Beorning at cap, you would know that you can have maxed mits and nearly 400k morale.

CaB does not compare to 10k HPS. It is easy to maintain both hearten and recuperate at all times if you play correctly.

I reiterate my point: Maintaining aggro on a bear is way too overpowered. If you can't maintain aggro, you are not playing correctly. I encourage you to rework your rotation.

Counter is extremely underrated. I won't argue with someone who doesn't consider it useful.

Removing those buffs will not make us useless, stop being ridiculous.

If you learn to time your interrupts correctly, you can keep armour crush up while still using it as an interrupt. 12s is very short compared to the 20s captain interrupt and the response-skill guardian interrupt.

I won't respond to your last point either since you do not see the value of Down But Not Out.

Kiting does not just refer to boss 1 adds in the Anvil.

I don't mean to be rude, but if you are telling me you have tanked any T2 or higher content given your understanding of the Beorning, that is just more evidence that it is OP. You are clearly not in tune with how to play the class and if you managed to tank T2/T3, that shows how little skill is needed.

[Beastnas]

I think you're underestimating the other tanks, like, a lot.

Yellow Captains are permanently at -20% incoming damage with On Guard and Battle Hardened, then stack that with -15% To Arms. Then 60% Parry chance for 30s with Fighting Withdrawal. Then Shield of the Dunedain. Then Last Stand. Fellowship buffs. Marks/banner beneficial raid-wide. Captains are by far the best single boss tank and useful for every boss in Anvil. Their weak point is the 6 target Threatening shout, but is less of an issue when timed correctly and single boss encounters.

I won't speak for Guard since I don't play one, but it's pretty ridiculous to claim they've lost their viability as main tanks.

Lastly, today I learned 10% Evade buff is an emergency skill.

[dsltn07]

Guardians Fortifications build to 10%, giving guards 70% physical and tactical mitigations, not 75%.

Beornings get 30% morale and 20% amour value boosts in Bear form. If you actually had a Beorning at cap, you would know that you can have maxed mits and nearly 400k morale.

CaB does not compare to 10k HPS. It is easy to maintain both hearten and recuperate at all times if you play correctly.

I reiterate my point: Maintaining aggro on a bear is way too overpowered. If you can't maintain aggro, you are not playing correctly. I encourage you to rework your rotation.

Counter is extremely underrated. I won't argue with someone who doesn't consider it useful.

Removing those buffs will not make us useless, stop being ridiculous.

If you learn to time your interrupts correctly, you can keep armour crush up while still using it as an interrupt. 12s is very short compared to the 20s captain interrupt and the response-skill guardian interrupt.

I won't respond to your last point either since you do not see the value of Down But Not Out.

Kiting does not just refer to boss 1 adds in the Anvil.

I don't mean to be rude, but if you are telling me you have tanked any T2 or higher content given your understanding of the Beorning, that is just more evidence that it is OP. You are clearly not in tune with how to play the class and if you managed to tank T2/T3, that shows how little skill is needed.

Whoops, I forgot guard is 5% fortification, giving them 70/70. This is versus Beo 75/65. I’d rather have the 70% tacmit.

Dropping bear form every 12-14 seconds to reapply hearten is generally a bad idea unless kiting very well for an extended period. I do have a Beo at cap and tank T2 anvil. You are missing something, in that the morale/armor buff for bear is actually a handicap. This was a replacement for shields which we cannot use. BUT it only applies to bear for so if you drop into man form you’re going to typically die.

Being able to tank T2 content is proof of Beo needing nerfs? That’s absurd.

I maintain down but not out is a poor trait.

Counter is a skill with a cooldown that is equal to guardian passive skills. It’s not as great as you like to think.

Removing our incoming healing won’t make Beo tank useless, but arguing to remove them because they’re “op” IS ridiculous when compared to a guard our self buffs are far weaker.

Maintaining agro with any tank now is easy. What is not easy is biting edge being man form, and thunderous having a 10m range initial agro on multiple targets is not easy.

As far as kite-tanking...we are still poor kite tanks if there are any mobs with slows due to rush not ignoring combat states like sprint. This means we cannot escape and take full damage in the back if slowed.

Trying to discount any of my accomplishments or skill because you are wrong is just sad. From the way you’re talking you cannot even get past T1 anvil. It actually takes a good bit of skill to play Beo tank WELL, don’t feel too bad if that’s not you.

Any schmuck can grab agro and sit there being healed on any semi-tank class.

[mrfigglesworth]

Hello Lotro Team,

I hope that you will take a moment to hear my thoughts on the state of the Beorning class. I will keep it short, but can expand on my thoughts if you would like. I know there isn’t much chatter about nerfing the tank line, but this is partly because there are still so few players with a Beorning at cap level.

I believe the Beorning tank-line is too powerful at the current time, outclassing all other tanks (even the Guardian).

First, we are able to achieve a staggering 75% physical mitigation. A physical hit that would inflict 150,000 to a Guardian would inflict only 125,000 to us. This size hit would inflict an astounding 200,000 to a Captain tank. Not only do we take 20% less physical damage than a Guardian class, but we are able to achieve morale levels rivaling that of Captain tanks. Well geared Beornings and Captains can have close to 400k morale, whereas a Guardian struggles to reach 300k.

Second, we have far too powerful self-heals. I am able to easily achieve over 10k heals per second on myself (16k with Thickened Hide). Combined with the ease of which enemies can be kited, this makes us extremely survivable in certain boss fights, even on T2/3 difficulty. Further combined with the higher mitigations, this makes us nearly indestructible.

Third, we have far too many force taunts. I avidly play all 5 tank classes (yes, that includes champ and warden), and I can say with certainty that maintaining aggro on a Beorning is too easy. We have access to three AOE taunts on very short cooldowns. If chained properly, it becomes literally impossible to lose aggro on enemies. Even if we do (which we don’t), we can use our ranged single-target taunt to pull them back. Furthermore, two of our taunts confer large incoming healing bonuses. Given the sturdiness of the class, this seems excessive.

Fourth, we are able to chain our 20 second long +10% evade buff into a 25s Thickened Hide back into another 20 second long +10+ evade buff. This rotation makes the Beornings “emergency skills” last longer than that of a Guardian and Captain, and mitigate more damage over that period of time.

Fifth, we are able to provide the Armour Crush and Bee Swarm debuffs onto our targets, vastly increasing the damage our fellowship does. While these buffs do not match those that a Captain provides, they are still present while a Guardian does not provide any buffs/debuffs of value to increase a fellowships DPS.

Sixth, we have two interrupts on relatively short cooldowns. This far outclasses the Captain interrupt, and also surpasses the Guardian interrupts, as one of their interrupts is locked behind a series of response skills.

Seventh, our Down But Not Out passive skills is currently broken. Regardless of which form you are in, it will provide a 20% morale heal when you reach 20% morale. This equates to a free 70k heal every time you drop below 20% (on a one minute cooldown).

The recent changes to the Beorning have had a number of important effects in the game.

(1) Captain tanks have become obsolete. We are only taken for our ability to keep up a second mark/banner. We take far too much damage compared to the other tanks, given our lack of Mitigations.
(2) Guardians have lost their ability to serve as viable main tanks. Friends of mine are not even let into the Anvil T2/3 anymore on guard if beornings are available. We cannot aggro as well as a Beorning. We cannot provide any boosts to our group. And a Bear is far more survivable.

I am not suggesting a large nerf, but some aspects of the Beorning tank should be looked at again. I have no incentive to play my other tanks when I can just stand there on Beorning and rotate taunts to easily maintain aggro while being more survivable than the other tanks simply because of my passive Mitigations and massive self-heals.

The class currently is sure fun to play, but it takes absolutely no skill for how powerful it is. It is so powerful that it can reliably tank T3 Glimmerdeep without a healer. Guardians can also do this, though it is much more difficult.

Despite personally playing a Beorning tank, I believe that we are too powerful at this time. That is why I am asking you to consider a nerf of the Beorning tank. You have done a good job scaling back the Healing Beorning, and I think its time to look at the Tank line too. I would love to at least hear your feedback!

Thank you!

if a hit is 500,000 unmitigated,

captain with tome of d, capped mits, banner and active buffs will take...
500000(.37)(.7) = 129,5000

beorning with time of d, capped mits, and active buffs will take....
500000(.25)(.9) = 112,500

guardian with time of d, capped mits, and active buffs will take....
500000(.3)(.9) = 135,000

the guard will take roughly 20% more, the captain roughly 15% more.



but that is just phys dmg. not only that but phys dmg that cant be bped.

what about tact dmg, of which there is plenty. or dmg that can be bped, of which there is not much of. beorning is behind both classes in these categories by a SIGNIFICANT margin.



take the same hit and buffs but tactical hit now.......

captain:
500000(.37)(.7) = 129500 (same)

beorning;
500000(.35)(.9) 157500

guard,
500000(.3)(.9) 135000 (same)

beorning takes 21% bigger hit than captain, and guard takes 4% bigger hit.


this isn't even considering group buffs or survival cds. 10% evade is nice but its nowhere near sold, or ihw+lsd. thickened hide is pretty much your only "hit button or die" skill beo has.

guards and captains arent going anywhere....

[dsltn07]

if a hit is 500,000 unmitigated,

captain with tome of d, capped mits, banner and active buffs will take...
500000(.37)(.7) = 129,5000

beorning with time of d, capped mits, and active buffs will take....
500000(.25)(.9) = 112,500

guardian with time of d, capped mits, and active buffs will take....
500000(.3)(.9) = 135,000

the guard will take roughly 20% more, the captain roughly 15% more.



but that is just phys dmg. not only that but phys dmg that cant be bped.

what about tact dmg, of which there is plenty. or dmg that can be bped, of which there is not much of. beorning is behind both classes in these categories by a SIGNIFICANT margin.



take the same hit and buffs but tactical hit now.......

captain:
500000(.37)(.7) = 129500 (same)

beorning;
500000(.35)(.9) 157500

guard,
500000(.3)(.9) 135000 (same)

beorning takes 21% bigger hit than captain, and guard takes 4% bigger hit.


this isn't even considering group buffs or survival cds. 10% evade is nice but its nowhere near sold, or ihw+lsd. thickened hide is pretty much your only "hit button or die" skill beo has.

guards and captains arent going anywhere....

I wasn’t going to bother. Thank you for properly doing the math to demonstrate.

[Iluvata]

I think you're underestimating the other tanks, like, a lot.


Lastly, today I learned 10% Evade buff is an emergency skill.

I also actively play captain, so I am not underestimating it. -15% incoming damage reduction up 75% of the time and -15% damage reduction up 40% of the time is nowhere near the value that full uptime mitigations bring. You will take a lot more damage on a captain than the other classes. Captains can still tank, I am not denying that, but they are being pushed far to the back with how OP Beornings are.

if a hit is 500,000 unmitigated,

captain with tome of d, capped mits, banner and active buffs will take...
500000(.37)(.7) = 129,5000

beorning with time of d, capped mits, and active buffs will take....
500000(.25)(.9) = 112,500

guardian with time of d, capped mits, and active buffs will take....
500000(.3)(.9) = 135,000

the guard will take roughly 20% more, the captain roughly 15% more.

I appreciate the reply! Your calculations for the Captain were helpful, but are slightly misleading. First of all, no true raiding kinship uses the mitigation banner because it partly ablates the purpose of bringing a captain. Second, a captain cannot have 100% uptime on his incoming damage reductions. If you want to be technical and weight the benefit, a captain would then take roughly 165k damage. This is more palatable than the 200k I originally stated, but still far more than the other tanks. More importantly, their buffs are characterized by cycles of uptime and downtime. This means when they have no to-arms buff active (35 seconds of every minute), they are taking 177,500 during those 30s. Therefore a Captain is highly susceptible to burst damage and would certainly not be able to hold up well at all in multiple enemy situations.

So to recap physical fights, a captain will average 165k damage per hit.
A guard will take 150k damage per hit.
A beorning will take 125k per hit.

Lets look at tactical damage now. A captain will go through his normal cycles of roughly 177,500 damage and 146,500 damage (roughly), averaging out to approximately 165k damage. (I know, the math is not exact. But its close enough to not matter).

A captain will take 165k damage.
A guard will take 150k as normal.
A beorning will take 175k.

So in the end, a captain takes 165k damage regardless of physical or tactical.
A guard takes 150k regardless of physical or tactical.
A beorning takes 150k damage when you average physical and tactical.

A captain is a single-target tank. I am fine with that. Not a problem.
But the Beorning taking the same amount of damage as a guardian is not okay because we has much more morale to offset the tactical damage. And trust me, the very much higher amount of morale they have MORE than offsets the damage they take.

[mrfigglesworth]

I appreciate the reply! Your calculations for the Captain were helpful, but are slightly misleading. First of all, no true raiding kinship uses the mitigation banner because it partly ablates the purpose of bringing a captain.

herald not banner, my mistake.

Second, a captain cannot have 100% uptime on his incoming damage reductions.

j dont recall off the top of my head if battle hardened lasts 100% uptime but if not it is 90% or more. I will check when I get home. I did not even include to arms in that, which lasts 25s every minute but brings my inc dmg to -45% half the time.

Therefore a Captain is highly susceptible to burst damage and would certainly not be able to hold up well at all in multiple enemy situations.

in the same scenario as my data above, that 500k hit would do 101, 750 if the captain had to arms up because his incoming damage would be -45%. -10% from tome, 5% from tactics, 15% battle hardened, and 15% from to arms. I did not add to arms to my earlier calculation because I consider it the same as something like counter. it isn't up enough to be considered baseline.

A captain will take 165k damage.
A guard will take 150k as normal.
A beorning will take 175k.

can you explain where these numbers are coming from? are you including baseline things like tome of defense?

[Iluvata]

Beo was entirely meant to be a main tank. Cappy was always meant to be a strong supporting offtank. Bear healing is weak.

All this rabble coming from a guy that believes Beorning heals are weak and that Beornings were meant to be main tanks.

I will quote Vastin for you, the gentleman that brought us these Beorning changes:

...bring the Beorning up to a Heavy armor spec.In addition, blue line Beornings will now have access to the Block ability. Between these changes and the wrath generation changes Bear tanks are getting quite a bit tougher - possibly even a bit too tough, but we'll let it ride in the current state and see how it plays out.

-Vastin

Whoops, I forgot guard is 5% fortification, giving them 70/70. This is versus Beo 75/65. I’d rather have the 70% tacmit.

Personal preference is irrelevant. Numbers are numbers.

Dropping bear form every 12-14 seconds to reapply hearten is generally a bad idea unless kiting very well for an extended period. I do have a Beo at cap and tank T2 anvil. You are missing something, in that the morale/armor buff for bear is actually a handicap. This was a replacement for shields which we cannot use. BUT it only applies to bear for so if you drop into man form you’re going to typically die.

I maintain down but not out is a poor trait.

I'm not here to tell you how to play your class, but you are playing your class wrong buddy.

Being able to tank T2 content is proof of Beo needing nerfs? That’s absurd.

No, it is not. When did I say it was?

Counter is a skill with a cooldown that is equal to guardian passive skills. It’s not as great as you like to think.

Removing our incoming healing won’t make Beo tank useless, but arguing to remove them because they’re “op” IS ridiculous when compared to a guard our self buffs are far weaker.

I'm not going to argue with you on this. Some people believe the Earth is flat, some people believe Counter and incoming healing is useless. It is what it is.

Maintaining agro with any tank now is easy. What is not easy is biting edge being man form, and thunderous having a 10m range initial agro on multiple targets is not easy.

If you are struggling to maintain aggro on a Bear, I urge you to take some time to rework your rotation.

As far as kite-tanking...we are still poor kite tanks if there are any mobs with slows due to rush not ignoring combat states like sprint. This means we cannot escape and take full damage in the back if slowed.

Its not about kiting 24/7, its about situations my friend. And for the second time, I am not just talking about Anvil boss 1 adds!

Trying to discount any of my accomplishments or skill because you are wrong is just sad. From the way you’re talking you cannot even get past T1 anvil. It actually takes a good bit of skill to play Beo tank WELL, don’t feel too bad if that’s not you.

Not trying to offend you, just illustrating that someone with a poor understanding of their class can tank T2 content because the class is OP.
I'm honestly not sure why you are getting so mad about it. I didn't say you were a bad player.

And I tank T3 Anvil my friend. Maybe instead of arguing with me, you could ask me for advice or listen to what I am saying.

Any schmuck can grab agro and sit there being healed on any semi-tank class.

Especially Beornings.

[Iluvata]

j dont recall off the top of my head if battle hardened lasts 100% uptime but if not it is 90% or more. I will check when I get home. I did not even include to arms in that, which lasts 25s every minute but brings my inc dmg to -45% half the time.

Battle Hardened is 75% uptime. I included that and To-Arms in my calculations.

in the same scenario as my data above, that 500k hit would do 101, 750 if the captain had to arms up because his incoming damage would be -45%. -10% from tome, 5% from tactics, 15% battle hardened, and 15% from to arms. I did not add to arms to my earlier calculation because I consider it the same as something like counter. it isn't up enough to be considered baseline.

Not sure where you are getting your damage reductions. 60% mitigations. 15% reduction from To-Arms with 40% uptime. 15% reduction from Battle-Hardened with 75% uptime. Unless I am mistaken, you are including more reductions in your calculations than the captain has.

can you explain where these numbers are coming from? are you including baseline things like tome of defense?

No need to include a Tome of Defence since all three classes can use it. It doesn't add anything to the calculations. My calculations are accounting for those things I listed above for the captain.

[dsltn07]

If you are going to quibble over uptimes, then it might be worth thinking about how the guarded buff for Beorning (the +10% Pmit) requires a parry/evade response to maintain the guarded buff. Let’s say a Beo is tanking Isvitha (strong role for Beo atm due to dps buffs). Let’s say her consecutive attacks are every 2 seconds. Let’s also say she has a 25% chance per attack to use a skill. So over 3 attacks (6s) you have a 10% combined P/E chance per hit. The 4th attack is a skill fire for blue eye (10s), purple eye (50s), or add summon (5s per call). You can consider each of these skills as downtime’s where our guarded buff is deteriorating. It has a 12s duration before tierdown. One purple eye will almost completely remove your guarded buff (60s from 5 to 0). Each blue eye removes a tier, and each add summon has a 50% chance of removing one tier.
Building the stacks, since it’s ~10% per hit is roughly a 2% chance to gain a stack per second while she’s attacking consecutively. Since it expires every 12 seconds, that means there is a 76% chance it will expire instead of tier up every 12 seconds.

This is assuming 10% combined P/E since capping them is ridiculous. Counter can be used to help increase this by 10%.
This is also assuming a boss is attacking every 2 seconds.
You can swap to man form to use the guarded skill, but then you’re trading out all your armor rating and risking a hit by boss for upwards of 200k.

Even worse, is that where you would expect the buff to shine (adds) it’s useless since all the adds now deal tactical damage.

Further, your captain has multiple panic skills whereas the Beo only has one. You also arguably have better dps buffs depending on group comp.

please stop asking to nerf another class that you don’t understand because it has a bigger maximum mitigation number than you.

[Iluvata]

If you are going to quibble over uptimes, then it might be worth thinking about how the guarded buff for Beorning (the +10% Pmit) requires a parry/evade response to maintain the guarded buff. Let’s say a Beo is tanking Isvitha (strong role for Beo atm due to dps buffs). Let’s say her consecutive attacks are every 2 seconds. Let’s also say she has a 25% chance per attack to use a skill. So over 3 attacks (6s) you have a 10% combined P/E chance per hit. The 4th attack is a skill fire for blue eye (10s), purple eye (50s), or add summon (5s per call). You can consider each of these skills as downtime’s where our guarded buff is deteriorating. It has a 12s duration before tierdown. One purple eye will almost completely remove your guarded buff (60s from 5 to 0). Each blue eye removes a tier, and each add summon has a 50% chance of removing one tier.
Building the stacks, since it’s ~10% per hit is roughly a 2% chance to gain a stack per second while she’s attacking consecutively. Since it expires every 12 seconds, that means there is a 76% chance it will expire instead of tier up every 12 seconds.

This is assuming 10% combined P/E since capping them is ridiculous. Counter can be used to help increase this by 10%.
This is also assuming a boss is attacking every 2 seconds.
You can swap to man form to use the guarded skill, but then you’re trading out all your armor rating and risking a hit by boss for upwards of 200k.

Even worse, is that where you would expect the buff to shine (adds) it’s useless since all the adds now deal tactical damage.

Further, your captain has multiple panic skills whereas the Beo only has one. You also arguably have better dps buffs depending on group comp.

please stop asking to nerf another class that you don’t understand because it has a bigger maximum mitigation number than you.

Guards have to build fortifications too. We (beornings) can easily get our guarded buff to max tier before the end of the purple eye, probably even faster.
Your T5 Guarded buff should never drop below T4. I'd be happy to explain why in private messages.

Dsltn07, you can BPE the tactical damage from the adds. This is because the adds deal frost damage from a physical hit.

Captains do have better DPS buffing, I am not denying that. But Beorning's 25s thickened hide is the best CD in the game. It lasts essentially as long as Guardians Pledge and Juggernaut combined. And it reduces ALL incoming damage by 60%. The Guard can only BPE with his CDs, meaning tactical-source attacks negate a Guardian's CDs.

I don't know if you read my previous posts, but I play the beorning actively. I don't have any incentive to maintank on guard anymore because of how EZ-mode Beorning is.



I expected a backlash since I posted this in the Beorning forums, but I didn't expect baseless responses.


Instead of taking my offers to help you improve your tanking on a Beorning, you resolved to bash me repeatedly. I will never understand people.

[dsltn07]

All this rabble coming from a guy that believes Beorning heals are weak and that Beornings were meant to be main tanks.

I will quote Vastin for you, the gentleman that brought us these Beorning changes:





Personal preference is irrelevant. Numbers are numbers.



I'm not here to tell you how to play your class, but you are playing your class wrong buddy.



No, it is not. When did I say it was?



I'm not going to argue with you on this. Some people believe the Earth is flat, some people believe Counter and incoming healing is useless. It is what it is.




If you are struggling to maintain aggro on a Bear, I urge you to take some time to rework your rotation.



Its not about kiting 24/7, its about situations my friend. And for the second time, I am not just talking about Anvil boss 1 adds!



Not trying to offend you, just illustrating that someone with a poor understanding of their class can tank T2 content because the class is OP.
I'm honestly not sure why you are getting so mad about it. I didn't say you were a bad player.

And I tank T3 Anvil my friend. Maybe instead of arguing with me, you could ask me for advice or listen to what I am saying.



Especially Beornings.

I’ll argue with you where you’re wrong, and a lot of what you’re talking about is factually wrong. My “opinion” on greatly preferring higher max % tacmit is because all of the content that will kill a tank requires tacmit.

I never said maintaining agro is hard, I said initial aggro on many spread out targets can be hard.

I never said incoming healing and counter are useless, I said they are not cooldown skills that can be effectively compared to guardian/cappy cooldown skills.

You’re very good at misquoting me. Props for that. Maybe climb down off your horse and recognize the reality of the situation. Calling for Blue Beo nerfs is absurd.
You want to nerf the strongest potentional Physical mitigation class and weakest tactical mit, with the weakest cooldown skills in content with the highest tactical damage.

[dsltn07]

Guards have to build fortifications too. We (beornings) can easily get our guarded buff to max tier before the end of the purple eye, probably even faster.
Your T5 Guarded buff should never drop below T4. I'd be happy to explain why in private messages.

Dsltn07, you can BPE the tactical damage from the adds. This is because the adds deal frost damage from a physical hit.

Captains do have better DPS buffing, I am not denying that. But Beorning's 25s thickened hide is the best CD in the game. It lasts essentially as long as Guardians Pledge and Juggernaut combined. And it reduces ALL incoming damage by 60%. The Guard can only BPE with his CDs, meaning tactical-source attacks negate a Guardian's CDs.

I don't know if you read my previous posts, but I play the beorning actively. I don't have any incentive to maintank on guard anymore because of how EZ-mode Beorning is.



I expected a backlash since I posted this in the Beorning forums, but I didn't expect baseless responses.


Instead of taking my offers to help you improve your tanking on a Beorning, you resolved to bash me repeatedly. I will never understand people.

My “baseless” responses are very quick, and I get frustrated with this sort of topic quickly because every other healing and tanking class cries for nerfs as soon as another class has something better than them. This is the main reason my old main character (warden) can no longer tank. For multiple years guardians threw fits about the warden and it kept getting nerfed until it couldn’t tank anymore.

[Iluvata]

I’ll argue with you where you’re wrong, and a lot of what you’re talking about is factually wrong. My “opinion” on greatly preferring higher max % tacmit is because all of the content that will kill a tank requires tacmit.

I never said maintaining agro is hard, I said initial aggro on many spread out targets can be hard.

I never said incoming healing and counter are useless, I said they are not cooldown skills that can be effectively compared to guardian/cappy cooldown skills.

You’re very good at misquoting me. Props for that. Maybe climb down off your horse and recognize the reality of the situation. Calling for Blue Beo nerfs is absurd.
You want to nerf the strongest potentional Physical mitigation class and weakest tactical mit, with the weakest cooldown skills in content with the highest tactical damage.

I tire of arguing with you so I am shortening my responses to you.


Anvil is essentially 50% tactical mitigation, 50% physical mitigation. That is not opinion.

Come one now. TH lasts as long as GP and J combined. Counter is more useful than Redirect in many situations.



From your very first post, you attacked me and harassed me. Please stop posting in my thread.

[Cenifh]

I tire of arguing with you so I am shortening my responses to you.


Anvil is essentially 50% tactical mitigation, 50% physical mitigation. That is not opinion.

Come one now. TH lasts as long as GP and J combined. Counter is more useful than Redirect in many situations.



From your very first post, you attacked me and harassed me. Please stop posting in my thread.

You realize you can't evade tactical damage right?

Yellow captain + Guardian are the bread and butter of T3 anvil Everywhere! Your level of delusion is astonishing. Have yet to see any run being advertised as LF Bear tank.

Perhaps your friends being left out raid runs has nothing to do with the class they play.

[TheRedfox]

So what you're saying is you want Beo's guarded to go from 2% Phys mit per stack to 1% phys/tac per stack so they hit 70/70 like guards. And Wardens mits off taunt & gambits should be moved over to a passive skill from BPE, right and bumped up to hit 70/70 mits (Wards really do need some boost but not this). If we're going to normalize every tank to be the same then it's gonna get really dull to play.

[Iluvata]

You realize you can't evade tactical damage right?

Yellow captain + Guardian are the bread and butter of T3 anvil Everywhere! Your level of delusion is astonishing. Have yet to see any run being advertised as LF Bear tank.

Perhaps your friends being left out raid runs has nothing to do with the class they play.

You cannot BPE tactical-source damage. The tactical damage in the Anvil more often than not from physical-source attacks. This means they can be BPE'd.

No raiding kin that has a beorning tank would bother taking a guardian tank if they can avoid it.

It has everything to do with that. I'm not saying Guardians cant do T3, but no one would take them over a Bear anymore. Its just not sensible.


Don't call me delusional when you are the one that doesn't know what he is talking about.

[dsltn07]

So what you're saying is you want Beo's guarded to go from 2% Phys mit per stack to 1% phys/tac per stack so they hit 70/70 like guards. And Wardens mits off taunt & gambits should be moved over to a passive skill from BPE, right and bumped up to hit 70/70 mits (Wards really do need some boost but not this). If we're going to normalize every tank to be the same then it's gonna get really dull to play.

5% Tmit would actually be a strong buff for Beo, I could support it. If you didn’t realize, currently Beo is capped at 65% Tmit and that is what caused most of the disagreement between myself and Iluvata.

[Iluvata]

So what you're saying is you want Beo's guarded to go from 2% Phys mit per stack to 1% phys/tac per stack so they hit 70/70 like guards. And Wardens mits off taunt & gambits should be moved over to a passive skill from BPE, right and bumped up to hit 70/70 mits (Wards really do need some boost but not this). If we're going to normalize every tank to be the same then it's gonna get really dull to play.

I don't want to normalize every tank. I want to nerf the beorning. There is no reason why we should be able to main-tank anything. We can output respectable DPS and we are excellent healers. Guardians can't do anything except tank. So they should be the best at it.

Hunters mainly ST-DPS, so they are the best at it.
Champs mainly AOE, so they are the best at it.
Mini's only heal, so they are the best at it.
RKs heal and DPS, and they are good at both.
Wardens tank and DPS, and they are monsters of AOE DPS and good non-raid tanks.

Guardians only tank, so they should be the best at it.
Beornings Tank and Heal. We can be good at both, but its not fair to have us be so good at both. We are already the 2nd best healer, only slightly behind the minstrel.

[dsltn07]

I don't want to normalize every tank. I want to nerf the beorning. There is no reason why we should be able to main-tank anything. We can output respectable DPS and we are excellent healers. Guardians can't do anything except tank. So they should be the best at it.

Hunters mainly ST-DPS, so they are the best at it.
Champs mainly AOE, so they are the best at it.
Mini's only heal, so they are the best at it.
RKs heal and DPS, and they are great at both.
Wardens tank and DPS, and they are monsters of AOE DPS and good non-raid tanks.

Guardians only tank, so they should be the best at it.
Beornings Tank and Heal. We can be great at both, but its not fair to have us the best at either one.

Well if that’s the case we need to remove revealing mark while we are at it. That skill alone will heal dps more than any ST healer in the game. You also forget that Beo costs extra money just to play. It’s been the worst class at everything for a very long time. If you max out red line it is still worse than a red line cappy, so that’s not good. In general I’m contesting that Beo is the best tank. It’s good, maybe competitive with guards, but it’s not the best for most situations. Regarding heals, maybe. If they’re left alone yes.

You mentioned before how I argued for yellow bear. Most of that was in fear of overly severe nerfs. If it’s left alone as it is then it’s passable but still broken. Broken meaning too strong, and mechanically broken. Further, it wouldn’t be fair to 95% of Beo players who have geared and played as healers for five years to suddenly make healing entirely unviable. Mini’s are now arguably better than Beos. Some can parse higher than Beos too.

Wardens cannot tank anymore realistically. They used to be fantastic tanks but guards and cappies kept complaining for over 3 years and wardens went from great 6 man and raid tanks, down to maybe 3 man instance tanks.

Champs need some help. I’m not a champ, but they’re just not competitive.

On guards: I wouldn’t be opposed to their red line being capable of 100k dps (Beo does far less than this). I’ve always wanted class versatility. It broke when traits were converted to trees. Every class used to have fairly evenly scaled skills, and the traits more or less directly modified skills instead of all the crazy passive buffs we have now.

[mrfigglesworth]

Battle Hardened is 75% uptime.

[02/20 04:47:23 PM] Nighquille scored a hit with Pressing Attack on the Training-dummy for 381 Beleriand damage to Morale.
[02/20 04:47:38 PM] Nighquille scored a hit with Pressing Attack on the Training-dummy for 283 Beleriand damage to Morale.

15 seconds between pressing attacks. As i said, 90% or greater. Remember that sure strike reduces battle shout cd.

Not sure where you are getting your damage reductions.

-5% tactics buff from hitting sure strike while battle readied
-15% from battle hardened
3% mitigations from hope herald.

This gives the captain 63% tactical and physical mitigations at cap, as well as 20% reduced incoming damage full time or near enough to full time.

Finally, let's talk about the tome of defense.

No need to include a Tome of Defence since all three classes can use it. It doesn't add anything to the calculations.

Including the tome of defense is the same reason you include base mitigations into your calculations when considering what buffs do for the class. ie, guard and beorn can both increase pmit by 10%, but one is more significant than the other because of where their mits started from.

In the same way, those incoming damage reduction buffs for captain are more significant because of the tome of defense.

That -5% tactics is actually more powerful with a tome of defense
that -15% from battle hardened is actually more powerful with a tome of defense
that -15% from to arms is actually more powerful with a tome of defense,

because with a tome of D we are starting with a baseline of 90% incoming dmg instead of 100%.

That is why tome of defense is significant and should be calculated. Because captain skills combine additively with it, becoming more powerful with the tome than without.


Edit to add: Back to the big picture. Beorning COULD be considered OP when stacking mini mits, captain banner mits, and mits from the new armor, but it still has too many drawbacks vs other tanks: cds and bpe and tmits. Advantages: morale and pmit. This to me is acceptable and a way of balanced imbalance. once again, i say no to beo nerf.

[Iluvata]

Let me just repeat this:

If you take a geared Beorning Tank into Anvil, your group will never want to take any other tank. It is the influence of all of the factors that I laid out in the initial post that make it this way. Everyone is so caught up in the mitigations, but I have already explained how the massive morale pool of the bear (and the slew of other factors) more than offsets that 5% less tactical mitigation. The Bear is stronger and that is fact, not opinion.


I get it, everyone wants to defend their class, but the truth is the class is OP and needs a nerf. This is coming from someone with a maxed Bear, Guard, and Captain who has tanked T3 Anvil on all three. I also run a geared warden and champ tank, but not in the anvil.

I (and a few other guards I know) just want to take our guards back in but they are 2nd fiddle behind the beorning.


Do not be so quick to forget that Vastin originally tried to redesign the Beorning to be an interdictor, not a main-tank. Currently, beornings can tank better than anyone else. The Beorning needs a nerf.

[mrfigglesworth]

Let me just repeat this:

If you take a geared Beorning Tank into Anvil, your group will never want to take any other tank. It is the influence of all of the factors that I laid out in the initial post that make it this way. Everyone is so caught up in the mitigations, but I have already explained how the massive morale pool of the bear (and the slew of other factors) more than offsets that 5% less tactical mitigation. The Bear is stronger and that is fact, not opinion.


I get it, everyone wants to defend their class, but the truth is the class is OP and needs a nerf. This is coming from someone with a maxed Bear, Guard, and Captain who has tanked T3 Anvil on all three. I also run a geared warden and champ tank, but not in the anvil.

I (and a few other guards I know) just want to take our guards back in but they are 2nd fiddle behind the beorning.


Do not be so quick to forget that Vastin originally tried to redesign the Beorning to be an interdictor, not a main-tank. Currently, beornings can tank better than anyone else. The Beorning needs a nerf.

I think many people disagree that a nerf is necessary, that's all . We can agree to disagree, let the devs decide.