@Vastin - Endgame Beorning Heals Need a Nerf

[Iluvata]

Hello Lotro Team,

I hope that you will take a moment to hear my thoughts on the state of the Beorning class in Raids.

The Beorning heal-line is far too powerful at the current time, outclassing all other healers by a long-shot.

The beorning healers that I raid with have recently begun to approach 40k HPS single-target, and 150k AoE HPS. The largest source of damage in the Anvil T3 is boss 2 while Ingor is alive. That fight stabilizes at around 25k TPS, meaning a beorning is now able to single-heal the main-tank. It has obfuscated the usefulness of a minstrel, who are weak healers in comparison. Many kinships can already one-shot every boss on T3 thanks to Beorning heals, while it takes more attempts when there are no beorning healers present.

The class currently is sure fun to play, but it takes absolutely no skill for how powerful it is. This is in stark contrast to healing on a RK or Minstrel which require practice, timing, and skill.

I am not suggesting a large nerf, but some aspects of the Beorning heals should be looked at again. Maybe nerf it back to 20-25k HPS instead of 30-35k HPS. There is little incentive to bring in other healers if two Beornings are available.

I personally play a Beorning healer, and I believe that we are too powerful at this time. That is why I am asking you to consider a nerf of the Beorning heals. I would love to at least hear your feedback!

Thank you!

[Gertes]

Hello Lotro Team,

I hope that you will take a moment to hear my thoughts on the state of the Beorning class in Raids.

The Beorning heal-line is far too powerful at the current time, outclassing all other healers by a long-shot.

The beorning healers that I raid with have recently begun to approach 40k HPS single-target, and 150k AoE HPS. The largest source of damage in the Anvil T3 is boss 2 while Ingor is alive. That fight stabilizes at around 25k TPS, meaning a beorning is now able to single-heal the main-tank. It has obfuscated the usefulness of a minstrel, who are weak healers in comparison. Many kinships can already one-shot every boss on T3 thanks to Beorning heals, while it takes more attempts when there are no beorning healers present.

The class currently is sure fun to play, but it takes absolutely no skill for how powerful it is. This is in stark contrast to healing on a RK or Minstrel which require practice, timing, and skill.

I am not suggesting a large nerf, but some aspects of the Beorning heals should be looked at again. Maybe nerf it back to 20-25k HPS instead of 30-35k HPS. There is little incentive to bring in other healers if two Beornings are available.

I personally play a Beorning healer, and I believe that we are too powerful at this time. That is why I am asking you to consider a nerf of the Beorning heals. I would love to at least hear your feedback!

Thank you!

I think heal in general is to strong, from what i have seen Minis are also able to heal insane numbers, but i agree with you that beo heal is very easy to play (in his basic healing role).

[Mukor]

Beos will never replace minis.
Be happy about their numbers which allows minis go yellow again. Perfect combo since the "Our Fates Entwined" nerf.

[sapienze]

I think heal in general is to strong, from what i have seen Minis are also able to heal insane numbers, but i agree with you that beo heal is very easy to play (in his basic healing role).

Minstrel has its limited moments where it can nearly single target outheal even two bears but its situational and requires a coordinated effort. Also it is a cool down driven moment. Which means its not much more than an emergency option.


Outside of Minstrel Anthem buffs, the Minstrel takes second place to the Beorning heals.

[Happychappy]

Dont minstrels get other stuff like buffs and morale bubbles plus emergency skills etc?

The minstrel healing was made more complex than the old bolster spam days, at peoples request. Is everyone happy with the way it turned out? probably not.

Does the Beorning need to be more complex, when it is stated above its a fun class to play? NO.

The Beorning heals fine as it is and does little else. The debuffs arent worth much.
The Minstrel heals fine as it is and has some nice buffs/bubbles etc.

Both are working fine? ok then move on nothing to see here!

[JERH]

"Many kinships can already one-shot every boss on T3 thanks to Beorning heals"

"Inconceivable!" - "I don't think that means, what you think it means .."

"One-shot!" - "I don't think that means, what you think it means ..

Not sure how a healer allows a raid to "one-shot" any boss with multi-million hp. I can't see 12 characters each taking one shot at a boss killing the T3 boss. I can see that AoE healing overkill can help a raid to get higher dps and take a T3 boss down quicker but "one-shot"? LOL.

[Iluvata]

Minstrel bubbles, damage reductions, and emergency skills are the only way mini's stay somewhat viable against a beorning healer. But these do not make up for having half the HPS as a top-end Bear. Bears can instantly full-heal everyone in the raid up after a Boss 1 Flop, Elder Drake AOE attack, a blue or purple eye that hits the group, and more. Mini's and RKs can't or have to consume a valuable CD to do so. Moveover, as I referenced, a Bear can outheal the highest amount of TPS by nearly 15K HPS, while even a great minstrel cannot.

@Happychappy, The beorning does need to either be made more complex or less powerful. It is unfair that average players are able to become Raid Gods because they Valar'd a mega-Bear. Some classes are easier to play than others, but all classes require skill to be great at them. The beorning requires no skill, as you rotate through like 4 skills for 150k AOE HPS. I do not heal often, but even I can hit 25k HPS-ST on Bear while wearing unslotted gear and heal jewellery.

The debuffs are also worth a lot, so I'm not sure what you are saying. Armour Crush alone is an absolutely massive DPS increase.

Minstrels and beornings are both viable healers, but it is so unbalanced in favor of the beorning that every other healer has started to power-level or Valar Beornings because they are WAY to OP at the moment. Beorning heals are overscaled for the amount of damage enemy mobs put out.

Fine, instead of the word "nerf", lets start using "re-scale" or "re-balance".

@JERH, by one-shot, I am referring to the fact that you can clear each boss in one attempt because the HPS are so massive that no one in your raid is even at risk of dying. I am not referring to anyone in the raid killing the boss in 1 hit.




Also, no need to be hurtful and tell me I have no skill or I suck. I didn't come into this forums attacking anyone and I would request to be treated in kind as well. I do not need to prove my skill to you, but I can affirm that I am a good player and have completed the Raid on T3 numerous times.

[Chris91]

Dont minstrels get other stuff like buffs and morale bubbles plus emergency skills etc?

The minstrel healing was made more complex than the old bolster spam days, at peoples request. Is everyone happy with the way it turned out? probably not.

Does the Beorning need to be more complex, when it is stated above its a fun class to play? NO.

The Beorning heals fine as it is and does little else. The debuffs arent worth much.
The Minstrel heals fine as it is and has some nice buffs/bubbles etc.

Both are working fine? ok then move on nothing to see here!

If you seriously think that Beos have little else except for heals than you need to learn the class

Beos have by far the most support of all healing classes

Honestly it would be good if the Armour crush would be moved to the blue trait set, so that healing bears wouldn't have such an OP support and be more in line with Minis (RKs still have pretty much no offensive support) and that there was a reason to take a tanking bear as a boss tank. Currently tanking bears offer nothing over a cappy because a healing bear has all the support anyway

[Iluvata]

Honestly it would be good if the Armour crush would be moved to the blue trait set, so that healing bears wouldn't have such an OP support and be more in line with Minis (RKs still have pretty much no offensive support)

That is a very good point about armour crush being locked to blue line. I think changes like this could help balance a lot of classes. It would help balance the roles a bit, but something should still be done about the absurd nearly-40k ST-HPS lol

This has to be an oversight of scaling, given that the highest damage TPS in the T3 raid is less than 30k. In order to outheal that much TPS, you need either two mini's added together, or just one Beorning.

[sapienze]

Dont minstrels get other stuff like buffs and morale bubbles plus emergency skills etc?

The minstrel healing was made more complex than the old bolster spam days, at peoples request. Is everyone happy with the way it turned out? probably not.

Does the Beorning need to be more complex, when it is stated above its a fun class to play? NO.

The Beorning heals fine as it is and does little else. The debuffs arent worth much.
The Minstrel heals fine as it is and has some nice buffs/bubbles etc.

Both are working fine? ok then move on nothing to see here!

Every raid Minstrel knows their heals are crit reliant. The base heals do come along with Anthem buffs and in tandem off some utlility to a raid group. Morale bubbles are nice and better than before but no Minstrel imo should rely on these as a save all clutch choice. At best the bubbles offers a extra second or two for saving grace.


Minstrel healing wasn't made more complex. In fact, it is easier today than the last several releases. Removing Bolster spam just rooted out the ezpzy Minstrels and gave them a choice. To remain engaged or to choose another class.


Beorning aoe heals are out of line compared to other healing classes. The fact some of the healing skills are raid wide instead of fellowship wide is partly the reason this is true. Lol Beorning brings a bunch to the table concerning buffs and debuffs.

Yes, both are working fine. It's just one is working better than the others when it comes to raid group survival.

[Happychappy]

Every raid Minstrel knows their heals are crit reliant. The base heals do come along with Anthem buffs and in tandem off some utlility to a raid group. Morale bubbles are nice and better than before but no Minstrel imo should rely on these as a save all clutch choice. At best the bubbles offers a extra second or two for saving grace.


Minstrel healing wasn't made more complex. In fact, it is easier today than the last several releases. Removing Bolster spam just rooted out the ezpzy Minstrels and gave them a choice. To remain engaged or to choose another class.


Beorning aoe heals are out of line compared to other healing classes. The fact some of the healing skills are raid wide instead of fellowship wide is partly the reason this is true. Lol Beorning brings a bunch to the table concerning buffs and debuffs.

Yes, both are working fine. It's just one is working better than the others when it comes to raid group survival.

Yes i do agree on the raid wide healing of certain Beorning skills. But that is an old topic and perhaps should be fixed.

Minstrel healing was at its easiest when it was just bolster spam and nothing else was needed because the healing was so high. How is what we have now easier than just hitting one button?



Most of the debuffs dont actually do anywhere near the values they say incase you hadnt noticed. Armour crush is good i agree and could be a Blue or even red specialisation trait. What "bunch" of debuffs/buffs are you referring to particularily?
But Minstrels have their own buffs and debuffs which are nice also. They have morale bubbles and Emergency skills.

The Bear has more burst AoE healing but on longer cooldowns, nice to heal a group up but then its gone on Cooldown.

Certain set items can boost a Beornings healing but that doesnt mean the Beorning should be nerfed.

A RK can debuff a mob in healing if it wanted to.

This all sounds like the Dps and Tanks in this game needs nerfing down then Armour crush would be nerfed anyway lol. But the healing is fine, except for it being raid wide and not FS only, which i also agreed on long ago. But Beornings were not good then and didnt step on any toes so no one cared. Toes are definitely being stepped on now lol.

Champs are the best AoE in the game and how hard are they to play lol? If complexity is a big factor then the Warden should be number one tank and dps by a big margin. A healing Beorning uses a lot more skills than just 4 lol.

@iluvata No where did i even use the word "Suck". You made that up!

[Iluvata]

Yes i do agree on the raid wide healing of certain Beorning skills. But that is an old topic and perhaps should be fixed.

Minstrel healing was at its easiest when it was just bolster spam and nothing else was needed because the healing was so high. How is what we have now easier than just hitting one button?



Most of the debuffs dont actually do anywhere near the values they say incase you hadnt noticed. Armour crush is good i agree and could be a Blue or even red specialisation trait. What "bunch" of debuffs/buffs are you referring to particularily?
But Minstrels have their own buffs and debuffs which are nice also. They have morale bubbles and Emergency skills.

The Bear has more burst AoE healing but on longer cooldowns, nice to heal a group up but then its gone on Cooldown.

Certain set items can boost a Beornings healing but that doesnt mean the Beorning should be nerfed.

A RK can debuff a mob in healing if it wanted to.

This all sounds like the Dps and Tanks in this game needs nerfing down then Armour crush would be nerfed anyway lol. But the healing is fine, except for it being raid wide and not FS only, which i also agreed on long ago. But Beornings were not good then and didnt step on any toes so no one cared. Toes are definitely being stepped on now lol.

Champs are the best AoE in the game and how hard are they to play lol? If complexity is a big factor then the Warden should be number one tank and dps by a big margin. A healing Beorning uses a lot more skills than just 4 lol.

@iluvata No where did i even use the word "Suck". You made that up!

That is why I brought it up again It should be fixed, but hasn't been yet.

Armour Crush and Bee Swarm together increase the raid's damage by more than mini buffs do.

Rejuvenating Bellow is a 10s CD. The group never needs AOE heals more than once every 10 seconds.

But how can you justify that Beorning heals should not be nerfed when it is approaching 40k HPS Single-Target and 150k AOE. The ST HPS needs a nerf more than the AOE since that massive HPS prevents a tank from dying (the most important thing, right?)

Champs are very difficult to play if you animation cancel and swap weapons for max DPS. If you don't, their AOE is not much better than high end RK's can hit.

@HappyChappy Fair enough, but you were pretty aggressive right off the bat.

[Happychappy]

That is why I brought it up again It should be fixed, but hasn't been yet.

Armour Crush and Bee Swarm together increase the raid's damage by more than mini buffs do.

Rejuvenating Bellow is a 10s CD. The group never needs AOE heals more than once every 10 seconds.

But how can you justify that Beorning heals should not be nerfed when it is approaching 40k HPS Single-Target and 150k AOE. The ST HPS needs a nerf more than the AOE since that massive HPS prevents a tank from dying (the most important thing, right?)

Champs are very difficult to play if you animation cancel and swap weapons for max DPS. If you don't, their AOE is not much better than high end RK's can hit.

@HappyChappy Fair enough, but you were pretty aggressive right off the bat.

I would like to see the screen shots of Beorning healing vs Mini healing etc. Making numbers up with no proof is no argument at all.

Bee swarm does barely anything in a raid.

Mini buffs are less effective in a T3 raid as everyone is usually overcapped, though anthem of war is a dps buff. Perhaps ask for mini buffs to be looked at a bit more then they would be in a far better spot.

The minstrel could almost use 2 inspire fellows in the time of a RB which has a mitigation buff attached to it also. Fellowships heart for extra when needed. Triumphant spirit is available fairly often. You have a group morale bubble. You have lots of heals that have a small group heal attached.

Making Rejuvenating bellow FS only would be a big nerf to AoE healing. That would be enough for now.
I dont see how a minstrel can not single target heal just as good, probably better.

Ease of use does not justify how effective a class should be. As i said if that were the case then Wardens would be number one at everything they can do. Weapon swapping isnt exactly hard.

The minstrel became more complex because they were stupidly easy and at players request. The Beorning is fun and performing well, players like the playstyle and no one has said they are boring or too easy, or not many have . They could use a couple more heal skills but until then leave them well alone. Minstrels do nont have to switch forms constantly or keep an eye on their power bars. How about we nerf minstrel power usage and make them actually worry about running out of power again?

If the group heal is not needed more than every 10 seconds then the minstrel has ample time to heal its FS. Are you basing this off one raids mechanic? A beorning could easily get caught with its heals on cooldown or out of wrath or in between forms in some situations, a Minstrel will never run out of power and has a lot of backup healing at their disposal.

There are also more laid back players in the game who dont want so much complexity. Not everyone will use macros and gaming keyboards/mouses or plugins etc. They just want to enjoy the game and enjoy the class. A lot of players dont play the warden for same reasons. If you want more complexity then stick with the Minstrel and ask for a small buff here and there. Its not like the mini is actually that difficult to play anyway.

You are proposing a 30% or so healing nerf and removal of some debuffs and to change the playstyle of the Beorning completely. That is just a little OTT lol.

There is no point in fueling this thread any longer. Everyone has different opinions and no actual real proof has been provided.

[Litreb]

That is why I brought it up again It should be fixed, but hasn't been yet.

Armour Crush and Bee Swarm together increase the raid's damage by more than mini buffs do.

Rejuvenating Bellow is a 10s CD. The group never needs AOE heals more than once every 10 seconds.

But how can you justify that Beorning heals should not be nerfed when it is approaching 40k HPS Single-Target and 150k AOE. The ST HPS needs a nerf more than the AOE since that massive HPS prevents a tank from dying (the most important thing, right?)

Champs are very difficult to play if you animation cancel and swap weapons for max DPS. If you don't, their AOE is not much better than high end RK's can hit.

@HappyChappy Fair enough, but you were pretty aggressive right off the bat.

Nerf the amount of bad suggestions on forum instead!

[Pavlin]

The class currently is sure fun to play, but it takes absolutely no skill for how powerful it is. This is in stark contrast to healing on a RK or Minstrel which require practice, timing, and skill.


Thank you!

Rly? Since when mini and rk healers require SKILLS to play ?

Beo atleast require some planing and resource menagment.
Wont speak about rk, but beo never beat mini. Both in pugs and premade.
Beo pull big numbers in the hps metter because have no limit of grp healing. This not make ministrels or rks weaker healers.
But some ppl care only about numbers....
Nerf beo, and ppl will stop playing it, because it will be useless. It have 1 uselfull skill line atm and you want a nerf ?
(yep i say one. if you want a tank better pick a cpt or guard)

[Morwyn333]

RK healers are irrelevant now since fates nerf, groups only take minis and bears and now recently everyone plays bear, all 3 should be viable, same with captain imo.

[head0nfire]

Yes, yes, beornings are in an overpowered state right now. But historically, when Turbine and SSG nerf classes, they nerf them INTO THE GROUND. Posting threads like this is like playing with fire while your hands have gasoline on them; even if you're correct on every point, the devs are more likely to destroy the class than to balance it.

Personally, I think it's better for any or every class to be overpowered than useless. Not that either of those is ideal, but this game is far from ideal.

[Happychappy]

I would nerf the Tanks and the Dps so that healing actually matters more. They can put out some big numbers, so let healers see some big numbers also and not just be a lacklustre heal support.

[sapienze]

I would nerf the Tanks and the Dps so that healing actually matters more. They can put out some big numbers, so let healers see some big numbers also and not just be a lacklustre heal support.

Lmao! You seem bent on diverting the OP Beorning healing into let's nerf every class because reasons.




Beorning aoe healing should be limited to fellowship heals only.

[Happychappy]

Lmao! You seem bent on diverting the OP Beorning healing into let's nerf every class because reasons.




Beorning aoe healing should be limited to fellowship heals only.

LOL

[Arabani]

Seriously,what is wrong with you guys? Please stop asking for nerfs, ask for buffing underperfoming classes and specs.

[Iluvata]

Seriously,what is wrong with you guys? Please stop asking for nerfs, ask for buffing underperfoming classes and specs.

We are asking for nerfs because almost every other class if performing well in at least one role, not underperforming. Beornings are overperforming in healing (and tanking IMO), making raids trivial.

For classes that severely need buffs, I'll let others handle that.

[Aeviternus]

Seriously,what is wrong with you guys? Please stop asking for nerfs, ask for buffing underperfoming classes and specs.

The answer couldn't be more obvious; specs should balanced around the current content. If Beornings are the only healers that trivialise said content, it entirely stands to reason that they should be nerfed. If other classes were instead buffed, that would simply make these classes overperform in the current end game content as well.

So, as a matter of fact, Beornings should indeed be nerfed.

[Litreb]

Read between the lines guys! Its just a bunch of sad creepplayers that cant handle that bears finally can do something useful!

[Happychappy]

No proof and over exaggeration is all i see here......again.

RB should probably be FS only though.