@Vastin - Endgame Beorning Heals Need a Nerf

[Iluvata]

No proof and over exaggeration is all i see here......again.

RB should probably be FS only though.

If you could upload screenshots directly to these forums, I would. Otherwise its too much work to upload it somewhere else that I don't have an account to and then link it here.

Don't be passive-aggressive with accusations of lying.

[Happychappy]

If you could upload screenshots directly to these forums, I would. Otherwise its too much work to upload it somewhere else that I don't have an account to and then link it here.

Don't be passive-aggressive with accusations of lying.

It is the truth.

Where is your proof? We can all make numbers up.

Exaggerating is not quite the same as lying. Overestimate may be a better word for you then as you seem to be seeing so much into it lol. Which you are doing to suit your own ends. Maybe it is your knowledge that i am questioning and not your integrity.....or maybe it's both

As i pointed out before, you are putting your own words in as if i had said them. Your credibility is nose diving even more rapidly lol.

Good luck though as you are going no where fast with this argument

[Pavlin]

Hello Lotro Team,

I hope that you will take a moment to hear my thoughts on the state of the Beorning class in Raids.

The Beorning heal-line is far too powerful at the current time, outclassing all other healers by a long-shot.

The beorning healers that I raid with have recently begun to approach 40k HPS single-target, and 150k AoE HPS. The largest source of damage in the Anvil T3 is boss 2 while Ingor is alive. That fight stabilizes at around 25k TPS, meaning a beorning is now able to single-heal the main-tank. It has obfuscated the usefulness of a minstrel, who are weak healers in comparison. Many kinships can already one-shot every boss on T3 thanks to Beorning heals, while it takes more attempts when there are no beorning healers present.

The class currently is sure fun to play, but it takes absolutely no skill for how powerful it is. This is in stark contrast to healing on a RK or Minstrel which require practice, timing, and skill.

I am not suggesting a large nerf, but some aspects of the Beorning heals should be looked at again. Maybe nerf it back to 20-25k HPS instead of 30-35k HPS. There is little incentive to bring in other healers if two Beornings are available.

I personally play a Beorning healer, and I believe that we are too powerful at this time. That is why I am asking you to consider a nerf of the Beorning heals. I would love to at least hear your feedback!

Thank you!

And :
@Vastin - Beorning Tank Needs a Nerf
Started by Iluvata,

You are some beo hater or what? When to wait for " red beo need a nerf" ??? Your argmuments are false + you have no idea how the class work. Have a nice day. (keep in mind some ppl cant swim. dont flood the forum with tears)

[eanamdar]

Thanks to the complaints, that SSG foolishly listened to, Bears have been nerfed and are no longer welcome in any group. The only thing worse than your favorite class being unplayable, is having payed extra for the class. SSG needs to actually test before nerfing, look a the whole game, not just PVMP and end game raids (which account for a minority of game play).

What is it with mini's needing kept on a pedestal? the call has always been interesting, but why is there at attitude that it has to be the "alpha" healing class, competitive DPS, a top solo class, and top MVMP. For 10 of the 12 years I've played I've just watched and shook my head at the constant favor shown to minis ... why is one class prioritized all others? In this case minis were whining about Beorning heals, and guess what happened ....

[Aeviternus]

Thanks to the complaints, that SSG foolishly listened to, Bears have been nerfed and are no longer welcome in any group. The only thing worse than your favorite class being unplayable, is having payed extra for the class. SSG needs to actually test before nerfing, look a the whole game, not just PVMP and end game raids (which account for a minority of game play).

What are you talking about? Not a single change has been made to Beornings since the inception of this thread. There are four minor changes on BR, none of which are nerfs, they are bug fixes. You're literally talking nonsense, Beornings are still by far the best healers in the game.

What is it with mini's needing kept on a pedestal? the call has always been interesting, but why is there at attitude that it has to be the "alpha" healing class, competitive DPS, a top solo class, and top MVMP. For 10 of the 12 years I've played I've just watched and shook my head at the constant favor shown to minis ... why is one class prioritized all others? In this case minis were whining about Beorning heals, and guess what happened ....

Yes, tell me more, what happened?

[eanamdar]

I think you're asleep at the wheel. Bears finally got some love, making us competitive healers. Mini's started whining, and there was a nerf to bear healing. If you want dates you'll have to research them, I don't calendar game changes.

[ColMcStacky]

Honestly, why is this even a discussion? Bear healing is fine at the moment output-wise. It'd be nice if there were a few things changed, but I feel like that should be very low on the list of priorities for the devs. Keep in mind, Beornings don't have much of an ability to reduce a tank's incoming damage like how Mini/RK can. As such, their healing output is justifiably higher.

Every class has issues/bugs/scaling problems, and Beorning is no exception. Especially considering for how long Beorning was an unwanted class, I think it's perfectly OK to leave it be for the time being, as it isn't brokenly overpowered or anything; just a bit strong.

[Zohal]

What are you talking about? Not a single change has been made to Beornings since the inception of this thread. There are four minor changes on BR, none of which are nerfs, they are bug fixes. You're literally talking nonsense, Beornings are still by far the best healers in the game.

Yes, tell me more, what happened?

I think he is referring to Update 23.3 from February 4th 2019:

Beornings:
Beornings can now use crossbows starting at level 1.
Encouraging Roar's healing over time component has been reduced by 15%, and its tier magnitude has been reduced from 1, 2, and 3 to 1, 1.5, and 2.
Beorning Abyss' set bonus now distributes Encouraging Roar's healing over time component at 20% power increase of 33%.

[Iluvata]

And :
@Vastin - Beorning Tank Needs a Nerf
Started by Iluvata,

You are some beo hater or what? When to wait for " red beo need a nerf" ??? Your argmuments are false + you have no idea how the class work. Have a nice day. (keep in mind some ppl cant swim. dont flood the forum with tears)

If you truly think I have no idea how the class works, then thank you sincerely for proving my point about Beornings being overscaled. I can hit 25k+ ST heals with DPS gear.

Thank you for your support, friend.

[Aeviternus]

I think he is referring to Update 23.3 from February 4th 2019:

This thread was made after that change went live, so that would still not make any sense.

[Iluvata]

Honestly, why is this even a discussion? Bear healing is fine at the moment output-wise. It'd be nice if there were a few things changed, but I feel like that should be very low on the list of priorities for the devs. Keep in mind, Beornings don't have much of an ability to reduce a tank's incoming damage like how Mini/RK can. As such, their healing output is justifiably higher.

Every class has issues/bugs/scaling problems, and Beorning is no exception. Especially considering for how long Beorning was an unwanted class, I think it's perfectly OK to leave it be for the time being, as it isn't brokenly overpowered or anything; just a bit strong.

If you do the math, the higher HPS output of a Beorning more than makes up for the lack of incoming damage reduction.


Anyway, I’ve been asked by a few kinmates to stop posting here. I will respect their wishes. But just know that if you argue with the FACT that Beorning heals are OP, you are lying to yourself.

[Mukor]

This thread was made after that change went live, so that would still not make any sense.

Class get nerfed and is still op. So I see this thread makes no sense.

[Aeviternus]

Class get nerfed and is still op. So I see this thread makes no sense.

This line of "logic" makes no sense. Just the fact that the class received minor nerfs does not mean it isn't still too strong.

Sacrifice, Piercing Roar, Armour Crush, Bee Swarm, Nature's Bond, stun immunity on channeled ability, very high healer DPS (which is actually significant), and ridiculously high levels of AoE healing. Yes, this spec is too strong.

[NavarreBlood]

Honestly, why is this even a discussion? Bear healing is fine at the moment output-wise. It'd be nice if there were a few things changed, but I feel like that should be very low on the list of priorities for the devs. Keep in mind, Beornings don't have much of an ability to reduce a tank's incoming damage like how Mini/RK can. As such, their healing output is justifiably higher.

Every class has issues/bugs/scaling problems, and Beorning is no exception. Especially considering for how long Beorning was an unwanted class, I think it's perfectly OK to leave it be for the time being, as it isn't brokenly overpowered or anything; just a bit strong.

If/when the minstrel trait reflecting cry ever gets fixed to actually reduce incoming damage then minstrel will have 15% reduction from that trait, plus 4/9% from inspire fellows depending on if 4 pieces of Abyss gear are used, and up to 3% increase in mitigations, and a 10% temporary reduction from coda.

But without the 15% reflecting cry minstrel's constant incoming dps reduction generally feels low at 4/9% reduction from inspire fellows + 3% mits from SoS, with an occasional extra 10% damage reduction from coda.

I'm not sure how this compares with RK/beorn incoming damage reduction / mitigation increases.

[Teyaha]

This line of "logic" makes no sense. Just the fact that the class received minor nerfs does not mean it isn't still too strong.

Sacrifice, Piercing Roar, Armour Crush, Bee Swarm, Nature's Bond, stun immunity on channeled ability, very high healer DPS (which is actually significant), and ridiculously high levels of AoE healing. Yes, this spec is too strong.

you have to buy this class. with money. on top of everything else in this game. it should be very strong at something.

there will always be a best and a worst in every role. welcome to mmorpgs. the only time this isn't true is in games with no classes no pvp and do not rely on the holy trinity.

[Mukor]

you have to buy this class. with money. on top of everything else in this game. it should be very strong at something.

there will always be a best and a worst in every role. welcome to mmorpgs. the only time this isn't true is in games with no classes no pvp and do not rely on the holy trinity.

You don´t buy opness with the calsses, you buy other mechanics wich maybe are fun for you.
the system should balance all classes for a role. for healers, one class is doting, on big initail heals, the other reduces the inc dmg so less numbers are effective as the others, for example (same for other roles). But no different what you choose as a leder the success must be rerachable with the same level of difficulty.
But at the end everyone who bought/ will buy the beo should buy him cause he has fun to switch forms and not cause it´s the best class for one role.
all to buy classes have mechanics which raise them from the others. beos the form switching (which poorly get under, a few times men to build wrath but not more/men form need more relevant skills), wardens have their gamits, rks their whole debuffing the foe to be stronger system and a mage class. this is why you should buy the classes cause you want the style not cause their´re the best in something.

[Iluvata]

Just to throw this one out there lol. Perhaps it is the Tanks that need a nerf. Why is ease of content blamed on healers only?

A tank can do small content easily solo. High morale and good survival.
A dps puts out huge damage numbers.

What does a healer have if it is nerfed down and just a weak assist/support.

I think there is far more to it that needs looking at but thats just my opinion. I wouldn't think of creating a thread about it without providing some arguments other than "EVERYONE knows", it is just my opinion.

It is not the other healers or tanks that are the problem. It is that the Beorning is way overscaled with healing. Max TPS in the game is 28k on Boss 2. Beornings heal that much by themselves. Mini's and RK's heal much less than that. The fights already take 10-20 minutes each, so DPS doesn't need a nerf. The TPS is huge at 28k (that is an entire morale pool every 10s), so tanks do not need a nerf.

Beorning needs a scale-down. Why do you think everyone is Valaring a Beorning? It is OP and everyone is rushing to take advantage of it. Once again, I'm not asking for a huge nerf. I am just asking that end-game beornings have their heals scaled back to 25k ST-HPS instead of 35k ST-HPS. This is still far more than the RK, and still slightly above the mini in terms of ST-HPS.


Also, almost every class can solo anything. You can solo the resource-instance scourges on any class, except maybe burg, for example.

[Happychappy]

It is not the healers or tanks that are the problem. It is that the Beorning is way overscaled with healing. Max TPS in the game is 28k on Boss 2. Beornings heal that much by themselves. Mini's and RK's heal much less than that. The fights already take 10-20 minutes each, so DPS doesn't need a nerf. The TPS is huge at 28k (that is an entire morale pool every 10s), so tanks do not need a nerf.

Beorning needs a scale-down. Why do you think everyone is Valaring a Beorning? It is OP and everyone is rushing to take advantage of it.

Could be that the Beorning is fun to play and is an effective tank and healer now. The Beorning was not good before and so players did not roll one.

But i do agree that RB should be FS only. How about settle with that for now and see how that works? Small adjustments are better than some heavy handed over nerfing that threads like this can cause and has happened before.

[Iluvata]

Could be that the Beorning is fun to play and is an effective tank and healer now. The Beorning was not good before and so players did not roll one.

But i do agree that RB should be FS only. How about settle with that for now and see how that works? Small adjustments are better than some heavy handed over nerfing that threads like this can cause and has happened before.

The beorning is very fun to play. I love the class. Remember, I am specifically asking for end-game healing nerfs, not normal-play nerfs.

Personally, from a T3-raiders perspective, I think the AOE heal capability of the Beorning is fine. I don't mind that part so much. The healing is reactive instead of proactive since it has to heal after the damage is done unlike RKs and Mini's who can bubble before a big hit. It is the extremely high ST-HPS that makes content trivial. Again, I am not asking for a heavy handed nerf, just a small rescale. Plus, if we just nerf the AOE heals but leave the ST-HPS the same, then the Beorning will be a clone of the other healers. The cross-group AOE heals are what makes it unique, awesome, and fun as heck to play.

HappyChappy, I really appreciate the much more mature discussion that you are having with me in your last few posts. Thank you!

[Iluvata]

At this time, the group setup of raids is very diversified.


Guardians, Captains, and Beornings can all tank and bring different strengths and limitations.
RKs, Hunters, Champs, and maybe Wardens and burgs after the update can all DPS, and bring different strengths and limitations.
LMs, Captains, Wardens and Burgs can all buff/debuff, and bring different strengths and limitations.
Minis, Beornings, and RKs (kinda) can all heal, with different strengths and limitations.

In regards to healing, since this is what the thread is about:

-Mini's are great ST healers, and also provide solid FS-AOE Heals. They have bubbles and buffs to protect and boost their allies.
-RKs are good ST healers, but where they excel is damage reduction and proactive bubbles/protections of their allies. They are invaluable against flops, eyes, and other telegraphed damage sources.
-Beornings are unparalleled ST-healers and unparalleled AOE-healers, with unparalled DPS buffs. I think the ST-heals should be reduced so that they are still unparalleled AOE-healers, with a ST-HPS that is still competitive.
Beornings are purely reactive healers, with only one skill to mitigate telegraphed damage on only one ally at a time. If we nerf the AOE but keep the ST high, then they are just watered down-minstrels. But keeping the AOE the same while reducing ST slightly makes them an invaluable addition to every raid.

Just my thoughts

[Zohal]

Guardians, Captains, and Beornings can all tank and bring different strengths and limitations.
RKs, Hunters, Champs, and maybe Wardens and burgs after the update can all DPS, and bring different strengths and limitations.
LMs, Captains, Wardens and Burgs can all buff/debuff, and bring different strengths and limitations.
Minis, Beornings, and RKs (kinda) can all heal, with different strengths and limitations.

Wow, that's a very sad list for a warden. A former main tank.

[Iluvata]

Wow, that's a very sad list for a warden. A former main tank.

Agreed

Fortunately, wardens still do have a role in the Raid, even at T3, if they so desire. It just wont be as a tank.

[Pavlin]

If you truly think I have no idea how the class works, then thank you sincerely for proving my point about Beornings being overscaled. I can hit 25k+ ST heals with DPS gear.

Thank you for your support, friend.

And you can do the same with every healer/ no i dont mean blue cpt/
So what?
And yes i`m sure you have no idea how the class work.
Question is. Why you cry for nerf when beo is not 1st in any role ?
Because of pvmp? I dont care about PvMp.
But even there beo is not the class which need to be nerfed 1st.

Agreed

Fortunately, wardens still do have a role in the Raid, even at T3, if they so desire. It just wont be as a tank.

So dps then ? Why give spot to red wrd when any other /than bear/ dps do better?

[Iluvata]

I think the recent burglar update tells us everything we need to know. Vastin tends to overscale things. Look at the burg who was just buffed and now has the highest DPS in the game. Burgs can hit upwards of 100k ST without buffs, and around 200k SINGLE-TARGET with buffs.

And you can do the same with every healer/ no i dont mean blue cpt/
So what?
And yes i`m sure you have no idea how the class work.
Question is. Why you cry for nerf when beo is not 1st in any role ?
Because of pvmp? I dont care about PvMp.
But even there beo is not the class which need to be nerfed 1st.

You cannot even hit 25k HPS with every healer. RK can't even come close to that. Minstrel can hit 25k HPS nowadays, but only very good raid-mini's ever do.

Right, I have no idea how the class works and I heal for 25k HPS ST and 120K aoe IN DPS GEAR. Thanks again for proving my point that beorning heals are OP.

What? Beornings are tied for the 1st spot heal role. The only reason mini's are tied with them is for mini-buffs.... This is common knowledge.

I don't care about PvMP either. This thread is about end-game healing.

And who do you think needs to be nerfed first?

So dps then ? Why give spot to red wrd when any other /than bear/ dps do better?

Wardens have a role in buffing/debuffing in end-game raids. They boost the DPS output of their fellowship/raid by a considerable margin. Also, for boss 2, Wardens have some of the best AOE DPS around.

[LinNaneth]

Minstrel can hit 25k HPS nowadays, but only very good raid-mini's ever do.

Any half decent minstrel, not necessarily raiding material, can very easily hit over 25k. 25k is what a minstrel hits when they either aren't trying, or have a poor rotation in place or lack knowledge on how the class heals. I've seen minstrels hit well over 100k+ hps, I myself tend to average between 60k to 90k hps, so what you've said is merely you trying to make the other healers look worse in an attempt to make beornings look overpowered, when they are in fact in a good spot.