U24.2 Captain Class Update Feedback

[Zaheer]

Please make grave wound also not be able to miss when specced to be a taunt

its the last thing im asking for with cappy changes, give it the BoE treatment please. I know many many many cappy tanks who will love you for this

Dont you think that 3 tauns like this is enough already? We ain't guardians, keep it atleast a bit toned.

Keep grave wound as it is in yellow line, so what if it gets BPE'd, the point is that you use elendil in emergency situations, which happens if Grave wound gets BPE'd

Blue line got the healing boost it deserved, but the capstone traits are still very underwhelming. The healing on Valour should be significantly increased, or altered in effect entirely. For example, it could give 1% extra tactical crit chance per stack. Reform the Lines is still quite underwhelming for a 2-minute cd.

If Reform the Lines is to stay as it is, please note the following bug: if the captain gets stunned during the animation, the captain's health will be subtracted, but the AoE heal will not be applied.

Additionally, blue capstains still face the same problem they have always faced; a lack of single target burst healing. Please consider making Words of Courage fill that role, instead of a relatively worthless HoT effect. Captains have enough HoTs as it is. Perhaps the overall AoE healing should be somewhat reduced, if captains gain significant single target healing.

I think that gili is pretty on point, except, blue captains always lack ST, but I agree that it maybe could be beter? Though I get 13-17k hps st.

BUT Boe shouldn't take the hardened state anymore if it get the treatment.

And please reduce the mark cd as far as possible, best would be no CD.

Mark cd is terrible, but exploits should be avoided, maybe Vastin has to rethink revealing out.

I think that the Hardened state should remain as it is, if you rotate correctly through your yellow line and you keep using sure strike on cooldown, you should be able to fill the gap with elendil and then back into hardened.

Beta #2 Parse without telling mark, oathies, banner



Note:
In Beta #1, same conditions I parsed 40.7K so this is a 12% increase from last BR
Ran a few additional parses (some were slightly above, some slightly below) + my rotation can still be improved.

DPS seems to be rather okay, it could be a little more but I rather wonder what the DPS output is WITHOUT swapping. Someone able to post that?

Also, 168k dmg is pretty okay. I think that was a SL hit on crit. But maybe overall it needs a small increase? I'm unable to judge properly over this as I'm not able to access BR.


I'm unable to access bullroarer so someone pls test the buglist through :P

[LotroVidz]

So you have not yet done anything to generate AOE threat?

[Mukor]

Which exploits. If they're afraid that we would switch the mark between different foes to spare the five seconds. Just put a debuff on us, no receiving heal from revealing for 5s.
This would prevent the douple usage too.
But we should stay able to switch fast between targets.

[Aeviternus]

- Inspiriting Presence does NOT give you a 100% crit chance on all your heals (except for rallying cry/words of courage) which is insanely bad news. Make all the heals work like tactical skills as that's what the cappy buffs are based on.

This is not entirely accurate. The unfortunate fact is that HoTs simply don't auto crit like initial heals do. Ioreth's Call on minstrel works the same way. The HoT component isn't guaranteed to crit, even after using Ioreth's Call. Rallying Cry and Words of Courage are simply the only tactical heals that captains have, and they are guaranteed to crit with Inspiriting Presence up. So it's working as intended.

I don't think it needs to be altered, either, that would make Inspiriting Presence too strong.

[Altair6]

Revealing Mark skill now has a 5 second cooldown.
Noble/Telling Mark skills now have a 3 second cooldown.

Because? I mean what's changed, particularly with Telling Mark, that's now made it necessary to have a cool-down on these?

All these years and I never realized that being able to immediately apply Telling Mark to my next target when solo made me OP.

[Mukor]

Because? I mean what's changed, particularly with Telling Mark, that's now made it necessary to have a cool-down on these?

All these years and I never realized that being able to immediately apply Telling Mark to my next target when solo made me OP.

For telling amd noble nothing changed except they get the CD.
For revealing I'm not sure if they set a return cd on the marked target, so switching could exploit the 5s reflect CD.
But this would be bad programming even with the CD. So we could set two marks on two targets and go aoe.
Better would be a receiving CD on the chars. Sow e could spare the cd and everyone could have his own 5s if he accidentally of forced were outside the box.

[elzeqq]

Red line heals are too broken.
This is from yesterday TG T5, was not even trying to heal actually.

[To Kinship] Gundabad Captain (1m 51.8s);
Jehdrud - Heal: 5.712M; HPS: 51,099;

To Kinship] Karkasht Crow-feeder (2m 8.7s);
Jehdrud - Heal: 7.878M; HPS: 61,211;

[To Kinship] Frór the Lost > Maximum (5m 38.8s); Jehdrud - Heal: 4.128M; HPS: 12,183;


If you wanna balance your game you might need to reconsider how hard you broke captain heals.

[Vastin]

Ok, Strength in Numbers' implementation has been aggravating me since I first encountered it with several annoying issues, so I'm redesigning the little bugger.

Next iteration will apply a SINGLE effect that tiers up in both magnitude and duration with the number of allies, up to +5. The Strength in Numbers trait will give you a +2 tier bonus, allowing you to bump it up to Tier 8.

This will be immensely less spammy in your feed, and I can scale it more discretely, so that T1 isn't useless and T8 isn't crazy OP.

-Vastin

[Vastin]

[To Kinship] Gundabad Captain (1m 51.8s);
Jehdrud - Heal: 5.712M; HPS: 51,099;

To Kinship] Karkasht Crow-feeder (2m 8.7s);
Jehdrud - Heal: 7.878M; HPS: 61,211;

[To Kinship] Frór the Lost > Maximum (5m 38.8s); Jehdrud - Heal: 4.128M; HPS: 12,183;

If you could give me a sense of which heals are generating most of this in some kind of parse, I'd be quite happy to address it. Unfortunately HPS outputs are far harder for me to test in anything approaching realistic conditions than DPS outputs are because they are so heavily depending on player/player dynamics, which is why those numbers have generally been further afield than the DPS numbers in my reworks.

-Vastin

[elzeqq]

If you could give me a sense of which heals are generating most of this in some kind of parse, I'd be quite happy to address it. Unfortunately HPS outputs are far harder for me to test in anything approaching realistic conditions than DPS outputs are because they are so heavily depending on player/player dynamics, which is why those numbers have generally been further afield than the DPS numbers in my reworks.

-Vastin

Mostly rallying cry

[Hephburz-2]

Ok, Strength in Numbers' implementation has been aggravating me since I first encountered it with several annoying issues, so I'm redesigning the little bugger.

Next iteration will apply a SINGLE effect that tiers up in both magnitude and duration with the number of allies, up to +5. The Strength in Numbers trait will give you a +2 tier bonus, allowing you to bump it up to Tier 8.

This will be immensely less spammy in your feed, and I can scale it more discretely, so that T1 isn't useless and T8 isn't crazy OP.

-Vastin

Sounds, interesting. Will be nice to see in practice. In other news, any update on;

• Still wondering whether or not the 5/10s Cooldown reduction on battle-shout has been considered?
• BoE bleed still does not reflect modern stat numbers (1.1k every 5s for 30s in Redline).
• Revealing mark has also been changed from a passive mark to an aggressive one - is this change WAI?
• Trait - 'Honourable Blow' from Blueline still isn't applying the +4% incoming healing buff when you use valiant strike on the target with revealing mark.
• Stun Immunity from the Lore-Master still prevents the usage of Fighting Withdrawal. (If this is too difficult to fix why not split the elements of the skill, A) One skill being a break out B) One skill being the +40% parry buff?)
• Making Revealing Mark a 20m radius from the target centre OR 10m radius from the end of the target circle, as the current 10m from target circle will not work with the current Raid bosses.

[Gertes]

If you could give me a sense of which heals are generating most of this in some kind of parse, I'd be quite happy to address it. Unfortunately HPS outputs are far harder for me to test in anything approaching realistic conditions than DPS outputs are because they are so heavily depending on player/player dynamics, which is why those numbers have generally been further afield than the DPS numbers in my reworks.

-Vastin

The problem is captain heals have so many potentially modifiers:

the following is just for Rallying Cry, what should be the main source of heal for red capys.

on the weapon,
+43.8% Captain Area-effect Healing
+29,2% Battle-hardened Outgoing Healing Buff

on the emblem,
+43,8% Healing Critical Magnitude
+43,8% Rallying Cry Healing
+43,8% Vocal Skills Healing

(all % values are from the wiki with 69 out of 79 tiers

+ diverse traits in blue line that buff healing.

A red captain with all these legacies and traits will heal on the current beta build godlike (even on live its not bad), but without any of these traits or just a few, the heals are obviously smaller.

[Thurinuor]

I want to bring another captain bug to your attention: All herold actions are located in the "system channel" instead of the "fight channel". So it is very spammy when you use a herold companion. Maybe it is possible to move it to the right channel. You can see it on the screenshot.

[HolyDuckTape]

Red line heals are too broken.
This is from yesterday TG T5, was not even trying to heal actually.

[To Kinship] Gundabad Captain (1m 51.8s);
Jehdrud - Heal: 5.712M; HPS: 51,099;

To Kinship] Karkasht Crow-feeder (2m 8.7s);
Jehdrud - Heal: 7.878M; HPS: 61,211;

[To Kinship] Frór the Lost > Maximum (5m 38.8s); Jehdrud - Heal: 4.128M; HPS: 12,183;


If you wanna balance your game you might need to reconsider how hard you broke captain heals.

Pls don't say this, now they will nerf blue cappy healing even harder
Vastin, try to nerf red/yellow cappy healing without affecting blue cappy. Blue cappy took a big disappointing hit. From build 1 to build 2 and further nerfs will make blue cappy absolute trash again

[elzeqq]

Pls don't say this, now they will nerf blue cappy healing even harder
Vastin, try to nerf red/yellow cappy healing without affecting blue cappy. Blue cappy took a big disappointing hit. From build 1 to build 2 and further nerfs will make blue cappy absolute trash again

First they should make content which requires this amount of heals and then buff the healers, not make every healer godmode for absolutely no reason. Both red and blue captain heals on beta are so ridiculously broken they deserve way bigger nerf.

[Hephburz-2]

Honestly, I have to agree...

The overall bump to heals are nice, especially the pathetic HoT from rallying cry, but what is the point of these super overpowered godmode classes? Current state of Beornings; Bizarre beyond comparison. Current state of Minstrels; generally just too OP. Current state of Burglars; Don't even get me started.

We need to move away from this god-mode complex surrounding certain classes, especially when the content really doesn't require it. Captain is one of the few classes in a really good position, it just needed bug fixes + scaling its skills to modern numbers, but please, let's keep it reasonable....

[Arabani]

Are we really going to measure and normalise the class healing using short time burst fights done by an overgeared character?

Just increasing healing numbers is not enough. As some people have pointed out, Captain lacks single target healing and saves. We need real heals, big heals, good single target heals; we do not need more aoe healing, assuming the numbers go up in general. We also need our saves back: Last Stand plus Reform the Line combination, Shield of Dunedain. These were iconic Blue Captain spells which suddenly became tank only. Or just give us something similar. Besides Last Stand should be core line for every Captain.

Not once I suggested to give us reactives: both single and group ones; they suit combat medic playstyle perfectly. I'm pretty sure you are familiar with the concept, if not you can ask your "brothers" from DBG.

Moreover, Captain dps needs to be increased, at least to Guardian level. And yes, Blue Captain should have good sustained dps as well since helping to bring a target down is a part of a close combat healer job.

[elzeqq]

Are we really going to measure and normalise the class healing using short time burst fights done by an overgeared character?

Just increasing healing numbers is not enough. As some people have pointed out, Captain lacks single target healing and saves. We need real heals, big heals, good single target heals; we do not need more aoe healing, assuming the numbers go up in general. We also need our saves back: Last Stand plus Reform the Line combination, Shield of Dunedain. These were iconic Blue Captain spells which suddenly became tank only. Or just give us something similar. Besides Last Stand should be core line for every Captain.

Not once I suggested to give us reactives: both single and group ones; they suit combat medic playstyle perfectly. I'm pretty sure you are familiar with the concept, if not you can ask your "brothers" from DBG.

Moreover, Captain dps needs to be increased, at least to Guardian level. And yes, Blue Captain should have good sustained dps as well since helping to bring a target down is a part of a close combat healer job.

Whats the point of having broken healing class doing over 100k HPS when theres no content that requires it?

[Aeviternus]

Looking at HPS as a metric for the viability of a healing spec is ridiculous, and has only come about as a result of the fact that Combat Analysis does not distinguish effective healing from overhealing. Just about every healer in LotRO, except RK, has access to ludicrous amounts of AoE healing that is pretty much never needed. Nerfing classes based on their HPS is laughable, and I hope that a game developer understands what is actually important here.

[Mukor]

For the healing problem. I thing the biggest issue here for balancing is that you can't seperate blue from the others traitlines.
As explained the base heal from rallyng is low, but with all the bonuses legacoes/blue traits) it's get a big boost.

For the Revealing area, for me it's looks like a big boss only problem on smaller the 10m from center( nearly outer circle is fine.
20m radius, from the center, I would say, would be to m uh in smaller foes. So area radius should be r(foe) +10m. So it would be even for all foes no matter of size,no problems on large bosses/ not to much on small ones.

[Mukor]

Whats the point of having broken healing class doing over 100k HPS when theres no content that requires it?

Wait we don't need a 100k HPS healing class? Then why we've beornings.

Even if this numbers currently are far to much, if we get all to this for balancing between the classes. The next step can be to increase the content difficulty that we need this numbers.

[Earid]

I think capi healing on br is just fine It makes it more fun being able to heal and potentially heal 6 mans in full blue. Havent gotten a chance to test it.


I did some parses on red capi (not capped mastery or crit as I'm usually yellow) and gotten 46k as highest. I must say the rotation still feels clunky. I might not have the perfect rotation down even tho i'm a long time captain player and raider. Anyways that goes for a lot of captains out there I guess.

I feel like there is a downtime in the rotation where i need to auto attack. I've spoken to a few captains i've seen parsing and they agreed.

The suggested CD reduction of Shadows Lament would fill this up insanely good. I dont understand who wld be against it. @vastin please implement it. Even with shorter cd it wld still feel like a worthwile capstone skill imo.


the need for the bleed pulse swap legacy is also bugging me a bit... @vastin what's ur take on this?

[Zaheer]

Red line heals are too broken.
This is from yesterday TG T5, was not even trying to heal actually.

[To Kinship] Gundabad Captain (1m 51.8s);
Jehdrud - Heal: 5.712M; HPS: 51,099;

To Kinship] Karkasht Crow-feeder (2m 8.7s);
Jehdrud - Heal: 7.878M; HPS: 61,211;

[To Kinship] Frór the Lost > Maximum (5m 38.8s); Jehdrud - Heal: 4.128M; HPS: 12,183;


If you wanna balance your game you might need to reconsider how hard you broke captain heals.

You're incorrect, this red captain was using MC selfheal, which brings that amount to 51k hps as a large portion comes to selfhealing.

Apart form that, 100k hps as a healing captain really is not much, as a large amount is being AOE healing and gets largely overhealed. They're less capable of dealing with spike, so that when you see a large number at a blue captain, it's not as OP as it might seem.

51k hps from rallyingcry is not nearly possible alone, I'm assuming this is partially contributed to Inspire and MC selfheal.

I also think that these numbers aren't realistic, I'm assuming that there's messed with it. Even tho they may be correct, I'm assuming some kind of spamming was used like pet spam.

Please provide the footage of the red captain playing, so we all can observe why he's healing like that.

If you could give me a sense of which heals are generating most of this in some kind of parse, I'd be quite happy to address it. Unfortunately HPS outputs are far harder for me to test in anything approaching realistic conditions than DPS outputs are because they are so heavily depending on player/player dynamics, which is why those numbers have generally been further afield than the DPS numbers in my reworks.

-Vastin

The high numbers come from a red captain that traits into deep blue. So for example, he uses Gallant display, MC selfheal, Rallyingcry and inspire. But due blueline its crit magnitude bonus, these heals still hit like 20-25k each, especially gallant display counts up here as per target. Rallyingcry is only a major factor because its the single biggest AOE heal of a captain. But I'm quite sure that these are the cause of it. 51K hps in a group from just rallyingcry is unlikely. Rallyingcry being strong as AOE heal is nothing new, that is what it has always been, Elzeqqq may decline this, but I'll have the proof as backup from before helms deep.

*actually, the proof is all over youtube, I don't need to post it :P

It's a single burst heal every 15 s (if it crits)

I think gallant display is the major contributor here that causes a red captain to have 51k hps as it counts per target 15-25k every 5 seconds.


In the past, we used to have a mechanic inside the captain that if you heal upon use of words of courage, gallant display, you would sacrifice morale (hence morale sacrifice of reform the lines)

I think it's a good idea to bump this up, to avoid red captains abusing the mechanics of blue line toomuch e.g. Gallant display and words of courage. (as blue line captains could sustain themselves better with these heals)

[Earid]

You're incorrect, this red captain was using MC selfheal, which brings that amount to 51k hps as a large portion comes to selfhealing.

Apart form that, 100k hps as a healing captain really is not much, as a large amount is being AOE healing and gets largely overhealed. They're less capable of dealing with spike, so that when you see a large number at a blue captain, it's not as OP as it might seem.

Agree

[Mukor]

Jep. This is the problem you can't reduce the HPS in red without Nerfing blue to uselessness again.

With 92 points we can go to traitlines down the road.

Maybe the traitsystem should get changed to 2 points on primary line and 3 per off-line.

Or new traits per line that we would have to spend more points in the primary line.

This is not a captain only problem, all becomes to powerful atm.