U24.2 Captain Class Update Feedback

[Erionor]

Same comment I posted in the other thread, to make sure it gets seen:

I don’t understand why the mechanics of the blue mark needed to change. So many better alternatives have been suggested for this to prevent it being too OP, but keeping the same mechanic e.g.

1. Reduce healing returned from damage to 10%, or 5%
2. Reduce fellowship members’ healing to 5%, but keep captain self-healing at the original 15%
3. Make the 15% heal a blue-line-only trait, with the base mark at 5%, so you can get the 5% in red or yellow lines, but only get the stronger heal if you commit to blue.

etc.

The new mechanic for the blue mark on BR is quite odd, and creates a problem with the “every 5 seconds” heal, and the range being only 10m on larger bosses. You don’t need be cooldown with the existing mark on live, nor do you have to watch where you stand to get it.

[Thurlias]

Getting between 62-64k depending on opener RNG but damage seems better. (Fully buffed)

Still downtime throughout the rotation so either battle-shout or shadow's lament need a 15s CD.

[Knight.]

Looking at HPS as a metric for the viability of a healing spec is ridiculous, and has only come about as a result of the fact that Combat Analysis does not distinguish effective healing from overhealing. Just about every healer in LotRO, except RK, has access to ludicrous amounts of AoE healing that is pretty much never needed. Nerfing classes based on their HPS is laughable, and I hope that a game developer understands what is actually important here.

Exactly This.
HPS is a one metric, not the sole metric.

Instance design, mechanics and ability to effectively heal throughout an entire dungeon isn't so easily measured with short parses and zero context.
You almost want to do a side by side comparison of a fixed group make up in 3,6,12 person instance and see how similarly geared RK, Beorn, Mini, Capt healers hold up.

I also don't think you can class "red capt" or "yellow capt" as just one thing and look to try to deny them heals or buffs.
The Captain is by it's very nature is a hybrid class. I'm aware that the Red Captain Elze is talking about spec's deep into blue and focuses on support healing.

As a Red Capt you have the option (subject to trait points) to spec deeper into blue to boost healing and utility or more into yellow to get additional morale and bleed damage.
Likewise, as a Yellow Capt you have to make the choice of additional healing, utility and stability from blue Vs cross spec into red to boost fellowship buffs and damage.
If you want to cross spec into all 3 lines to tag certain things, if often involves paying a heavier price and losing stuff from your primary line that would have been nice to keep - that's just the nature of trait lines and isn't unique to Captain.

Ok, Strength in Numbers' implementation has been aggravating me since I first encountered it with several annoying issues, so I'm redesigning the little bugger.

Next iteration will apply a SINGLE effect that tiers up in both magnitude and duration with the number of allies, up to +5. The Strength in Numbers trait will give you a +2 tier bonus, allowing you to bump it up to Tier 8.

This will be immensely less spammy in your feed, and I can scale it more discretely, so that T1 isn't useless and T8 isn't crazy OP.

-Vastin

Thank You.
What are your thoughts on heals and CD procs from Exemplar?

Getting between 62-64k depending on opener RNG but damage seems better. (Fully buffed)

Still downtime throughout the rotation so either battle-shout or shadow's lament need a 15s CD.

Nice - I was wondering where things sit fully buffed with a tighter rotation this update. That's a solid parse.
Fully agree - having Shadows Lament or Battle Shout reduced to 5 seconds would make our rotation much better and reduce, it not all together eliminate "dead time".

[Mukor]

Same comment I posted in the other thread, to make sure it gets seen:

I don’t understand why the mechanics of the blue mark needed to change. So many better alternatives have been suggested for this to prevent it being too OP, but keeping the same mechanic e.g.

1. Reduce healing returned from damage to 10%, or 5%
2. Reduce fellowship members’ healing to 5%, but keep captain self-healing at the original 15%
3. Make the 15% heal a blue-line-only trait, with the base mark at 5%, so you can get the 5% in red or yellow lines, but only get the stronger heal if you commit to blue.

etc.

The new mechanic for the blue mark on BR is quite odd, and creates a problem with the “every 5 seconds” heal, and the range being only 10m on larger bosses. You don’t need be cooldown with the existing mark on live, nor do you have to watch where you stand to get it.

I think the new mechanic is a good one, with one problem (large bosses).
But all in all it's a good change less over the group heal with it and it takes the advantage of range, so melee get to be a better option. So the nerf the mark has needed

[Zaheer]

Nice - I was wondering where things sit fully buffed with a tighter rotation this update. That's a solid parse.
Fully agree - having Shadows Lament or Battle Shout reduced to 5 seconds would make our rotation much better and reduce, it not all together eliminate "dead time".

I heavily disagree against this, making shadow's lament 15 CD for a full rotation is too short. You need the 20 seconds to build up ur DPS. So it's battle shout NOT shadow's lament.

If you bring down Shadow's lament to 15s, you'll ruin the rotation, your Shadow's lament will be coming off cooldown before you finished with rotating through everything again, which makes a waste of DPS and buildup. You'll essentially break the rotation of the captain, ruining it's optimal DPS and burst output. For this reason you cannot change shadow lament's its cooldown.

If you think you're helping out by reducing SL to 15 seconds, you're not, it's not only extremely inefficient, but it will ruin the rotation aswell, making it more flat and less burst.

PS: If you wonder why I'm all up in the forums, I'm here to defend my class for suggestions like this. I do not allow anyone to alter the class from what it once was(ruining the experience). This I say because of your last assumption, that you made. The capstone should remain the same, as for it's burst damage, for reference see above, thank you.

[flirtswithmediocrity]

Setting : First troll in t3 3man glimmer deep, just me and herald. Full LI's 164k crit, 40% outgoing healing


Blue : 12k hps ( self ), 8k hps ( blade brother )
Yellow : 8k hps ( self ), 6k hps ( blade brother )

Commentary points :

-- Rally cry hot is a bit too strong :: I would decrease this 25%.
-- Yellow self heals is a bit too strong:: suggest decrease reveal to 4.5% in yellow/red or its going to be yellow cpt + 2dps for minas morgal 3mans.
-- Aoe healing vs st healing :: I think our potency in blue is right on atm, aoe #'s are big, but single target healing on tank is what really counts in challenging content. At current levels cpt would be hard pressed to keep the tank up in t3 instance or t2/t3 anvil.
-- gap in red line :: there are dead spots in readline even when spamming sure strike, please reduce cooldown of grave wound to 10s ( so we can keep up bleed ) and battle shout to 15s.

blue line healing distribution

[Mukor]

Setting : First troll in t3 3man glimmer deep, just me and herald. Full LI's 164k crit, 40% outgoing healing


Blue : 12k hps ( self ), 8k hps ( blade brother )
Yellow : 8k hps ( self ), 6k hps ( blade brother )

Commentary points :

-- Rally cry hot is a bit too strong :: I would decrease this 25%.
-- Yellow self heals is a bit too strong:: suggest decrease reveal to 4.5% in yellow/red or its going to be yellow cpt + 2dps for minas morgal 3mans.
-- Aoe healing vs st healing :: I think our potency in blue is right on atm, aoe #'s are big, but single target healing on tank is what really counts in challenging content. At current levels cpt would be hard pressed to keep the tank up in t3 instance or t2/t3 anvil.
-- gap in red line :: there are dead spots in readline even when spamming sure strike, please reduce cooldown of grave wound to 10s ( so we can keep up bleed ) and battle shout to 15s.

blue line healing distribution

Rallying is OK and shouldn't get anymore changes. (Edit: 477-682 initial + 162-231 each 3s for 15s/ naked with notrhing traited in blue-> there is nothing left to decrease)
Yellow selfheals are to low (without revealing), and revealing is only strong on tanks all others get less heal with the new mark and it would get laughable with less percentage. Especially with the lower area it's on a good spot.

[gripply]

Are we really going to measure and normalise the class healing using short time burst fights done by an overgeared character?

Just increasing healing numbers is not enough. As some people have pointed out, Captain lacks single target healing and saves. We need real heals, big heals, good single target heals; we do not need more aoe healing, assuming the numbers go up in general. We also need our saves back: Last Stand plus Reform the Line combination, Shield of Dunedain. These were iconic Blue Captain spells which suddenly became tank only. Or just give us something similar. Besides Last Stand should be core line for every Captain.

Not once I suggested to give us reactives: both single and group ones; they suit combat medic playstyle perfectly. I'm pretty sure you are familiar with the concept, if not you can ask your "brothers" from DBG.

Moreover, Captain dps needs to be increased, at least to Guardian level. And yes, Blue Captain should have good sustained dps as well since helping to bring a target down is a part of a close combat healer job.

Best comment, IMO.

I know I'm an old curmudgeon and I liked my pre-traits cappy best. The saves were supposed to be the ones in YELLOW trait now. So absurd to have them split up. So, no saves in blue.

Burst heals, because of the utter pointlessness of trying to keep the companion active in a real fight, and the millions of ways the brother skills can be broken, the heal from that is meaningless. Iirc, that was a really nice burst... if you could use it. Mostly you couldn't.

I also agree with whoever said that there are way too many fancy legacies for healing. All you need is:

% Healing
% Healing Crit Magnitude
% (pick one burst heal skill)

Once the oodles of noodles are clarified and trimmed, the actual face value of the heals will become more meaningful and simple to tune. Then we can stop arguing like "My heals are terrible" vs "My heals are awesome."

I don't have a solution for how to bring the save skill back to blue. I think traits may have done irreparable harm to my playstyle.

[Knight.]

Had a bit of a Captain session with myself, Aegiys and Thurlias in Eyes & Guard Tavern on BR last night.

All of us ran fully buffed with capped mastery, over capped critical rating (420K+), swap emblems, telling mark, oathies, banner, +5% attack tome, +5% damage food etc. 60K+ parses were achievable. We also saw a few 62Ks and Thurlias had one very good parse where he hit 66K (screenshot).

My rotation still needs tightening up a bit:



The parses were very reliant on getting a good start, swap emblem, grave wound pulses (check difference between two screenshots above) and fluctuated significantly due to RNG on crits & devastates. Although much improved from live, rotation still has "dead time" which has to be filled using utility skills and if you mess up on rotation slightly, often it has a knock on effect where everything feels "out of sync" (clunky) due to long skill CDs.

As already proposed I really feel a 5sec CD reduction for Battleshout / Shadows Lament combined with reducing CD on cutting attack to 10 seconds would make a big difference here.

It's also really important to note that not every captain is going to have access to this kind of gear, instances/raids may not lend themselves to running as light as we were on tactical mitigations and all of us selected extra bleed damage from yellow line at the cost of sacrificing dual rez from blue & bypassing "fellowship of the blade" from red (both of which are considered "must haves" in group content).

[Earid]

Might not be a popular opinion as some people here are already thinking captain heals are to good BUT I think words of courage should be a bigger single target heal to allow captain to reliably have some sort of spike heal other than a rallying cry that crits (which is only a spike heal when it crits and with defeat response, so 2 variables there)

[HolyDuckTape]

Might not be a popular opinion as some people here are already thinking captain heals are to good BUT I think words of courage should be a bigger single target heal to allow captain to reliably have some sort of spike heal other than a rallying cry that crits (which is only a spike heal when it crits and with defeat response, so 2 variables there)

I agree, what people don't seem to understand is that most blue cappy skills got a 15sec cd and are only good when thry crit. If rallying cry does not crit, have fun with your 20k heal every 15seconds which is pretty much useless. Cappy indeed needs a reliable heal for spike dmg

[Zanna95]

I think as long as people will only look at HPS and not actual heals, blue captain will be never balanced in the correct way. Who cares about 100k HPS if the tank dies anyway? Even when the level cap was 100/105 Captain's HPS was strong, but his lack of emergency ST healing made it a bad choice compared to other healers. Now we have the same problem and we rely far too much on critical heals.

And if you want to place blue line in the right spot without making the heals of other lines OP, the easy solution is to give blue line capstone traits/skills a major relevance since they are the only ones you can't get access to in other lines. And i believe Vastin does not need any more healing parses to understand how much Valour and Reform the Lines are underwhelming in this regard. Giving such traits/skills the relevance they deserve would allow for easier adjustments for other lines without affecting blue line that much and it would make the healing experience in blue line more unique and fun overall.

[Zaheer]

Had a bit of a Captain session with myself, Aegiys and Thurlias in Eyes & Guard Tavern on BR last night.

All of us ran fully buffed with capped mastery, over capped critical rating (420K+), swap emblems, telling mark, oathies, banner, +5% attack tome, +5% damage food etc. 60K+ parses were achievable. We also saw a few 62Ks and Thurlias had one very good parse where he hit 66K (screenshot).

My rotation still needs tightening up a bit:



The parses were very reliant on getting a good start, swap emblem, grave wound pulses (check difference between two screenshots above) and fluctuated significantly due to RNG on crits & devastates. Although much improved from live, rotation still has "dead time" which has to be filled using utility skills and if you mess up on rotation slightly, often it has a knock on effect where everything feels "out of sync" (clunky) due to long skill CDs.

As already proposed I really feel a 5sec CD reduction for Battleshout / Shadows Lament combined with reducing CD on cutting attack to 10 seconds would make a big difference here.

It's also really important to note that not every captain is going to have access to this kind of gear, instances/raids may not lend themselves to running as light as we were on tactical mitigations and all of us selected extra bleed damage from yellow line at the cost of sacrificing dual rez from blue & bypassing "fellowship of the blade" from red (both of which are considered "must haves" in group content).

It's gonna be a cd in battle shout then, cuz of the reason that I stated earlier. The capstone cannot be reduced in cooldown, you can't do that. The other option might be a reduction on surestrike cooldown, to fasten up battle-shout. Else a reduction on battle shout. The 3th option is a cd overall to quicken up the rotation. This means a CD reduction on all rotation skills with 0.5/1/2 seconds. This will also incl CD redu on shadows lament but the problem is that the rotation has to remain in sync. Reducing shadows lament its CD will disrupt this and break down all the buildup on dmg buff we made, which is not supposed to happen.

Shadows lament cannot be reduced in CD, stop pushing for it.

[Mukor]

It's gonna be a cd in battle shout then, cuz of the reason that I stated earlier. The capstone cannot be reduced in cooldown, you can't do that. The other option might be a reduction on surestrike cooldown, to fasten up battle-shout. Else a reduction on battle shout. The 3th option is a cd overall to quicken up the rotation. This means a CD reduction on all rotation skills with 0.5/1/2 seconds. This will also incl CD redu on shadows lament but the problem is that the rotation has to remain in sync. Reducing shadows lament its CD will disrupt this and break down all the buildup on dmg buff we made, which is not supposed to happen.

Shadows lament cannot be reduced in CD, stop pushing for it.

CD reduction of battle shout and/or sure strike, ny the half would be nice.

Or let the cds as they´re and make shadows lament to a real burst (this would help landscape/solo a lot and won´t affect groupplay this much) double the base dmg.

[RicoFTW]

Had a bit of a Captain session with myself, Aegiys and Thurlias in Eyes & Guard Tavern on BR last night.

All of us ran fully buffed with capped mastery, over capped critical rating (420K+), swap emblems, telling mark, oathies, banner, +5% attack tome, +5% damage food etc. 60K+ parses were achievable. We also saw a few 62Ks and Thurlias had one very good parse where he hit 66K (screenshot).

My rotation still needs tightening up a bit:



The parses were very reliant on getting a good start, swap emblem, grave wound pulses (check difference between two screenshots above) and fluctuated significantly due to RNG on crits & devastates. Although much improved from live, rotation still has "dead time" which has to be filled using utility skills and if you mess up on rotation slightly, often it has a knock on effect where everything feels "out of sync" (clunky) due to long skill CDs.

As already proposed I really feel a 5sec CD reduction for Battleshout / Shadows Lament combined with reducing CD on cutting attack to 10 seconds would make a big difference here.

It's also really important to note that not every captain is going to have access to this kind of gear, instances/raids may not lend themselves to running as light as we were on tactical mitigations and all of us selected extra bleed damage from yellow line at the cost of sacrificing dual rez from blue & bypassing "fellowship of the blade" from red (both of which are considered "must haves" in group content).

Just a bit curious about the 269 GW ticks. Mine is usually around 200, 210 the highest so far I believe. When you look at his first screen, his GW has done 212, while the screen you posted says 269 in the same 3 minutes mark. Which compared to anyone is quite a big gap.

[Zaheer]

CD reduction of battle shout and/or sure strike, ny the half would be nice.

Or let the cds as they´re and make shadows lament to a real burst (this would help landscape/solo a lot and won´t affect groupplay this much) double the base dmg.

I do agree with knight that the gaps are a problem, but don't agree about SL it's reduction. There needs to come another solution

I think as long as people will only look at HPS and not actual heals, blue captain will be never balanced in the correct way. Who cares about 100k HPS if the tank dies anyway? Even when the level cap was 100/105 Captain's HPS was strong, but his lack of emergency ST healing made it a bad choice compared to other healers. Now we have the same problem and we rely far too much on critical heals.

And if you want to place blue line in the right spot without making the heals of other lines OP, the easy solution is to give blue line capstone traits/skills a major relevance since they are the only ones you can't get access to in other lines. And i believe Vastin does not need any more healing parses to understand how much Valour and Reform the Lines are underwhelming in this regard. Giving such traits/skills the relevance they deserve would allow for easier adjustments for other lines without affecting blue line that much and it would make the healing experience in blue line more unique and fun overall.

I agree in this, this is why I think SSG needs to take more time for the captain to pass it. If they're short on time, they can try fixing things later on aswell. As long as they fix blue line on the longer term. This means a little improvement of blue line for each update they do.

[Mukor]

I do agree with knight that the gaps are a problem, but don't agree about SL it's reduction. There needs to come another solution

NO SL-CD, should stay as it is, only increase the dmg of it that it becomes a real burst. (Double the base dmg)
CD reduction only on BS and/or SS. (half the cd)

[Mukor]

For the healing problem, may be traited blue BoE could become a big ST-heal on the targets target. Similar to the thoughs to make it a st-taunt traited yellow.
Antoher special thing to red (maybe next SL is a sure devaste, or next skill activate a defeat event), and BoE would become debending on the choosen traitline unique.
At leastr more as now.

[Thurlias]

Just a bit curious about the 269 GW ticks. Mine is usually around 200, 210 the highest so far I believe. When you look at his first screen, his GW has done 212, while the screen you posted says 269 in the same 3 minutes mark. Which compared to anyone is quite a big gap.

They were 2 dummies down at the start and it disappeared after the first minute or so meaning I was cleaving grave wounds onto it.

[Zaheer]

NO SL-CD, should stay as it is, only increase the dmg of it that it becomes a real burst. (Double the base dmg)
CD reduction only on BS and/or SS. (half the cd)

This is SL unbuffed with maxed crit /mastery (if sure strike ran)
Do you think SL needs even more damage when it can devastate at 330k+ with over capped crit and max mastery?

Keep in mind, SL dmg will go up significantly when used on a target with telling + all buffs and both states up.

[Valgalad]

I like the way people are testing with unrealistc Gear or asking for Nerf when it's still work in progress - do you realize most of the people don't run with T3 or even T2 armor ?

[Mukor]

This is SL unbuffed with maxed crit /mastery (if sure strike ran)
Do you think SL needs even more damage when it can devastate at 330k+ with over capped crit and max mastery?

Keep in mind, SL dmg will go up significantly when used on a target with telling + all buffs and both states up.

Ah k, weared my tanking emblem, with it I was only at ~20k .with the +50%sl dmg and 83% light legacies I reach ~50k with sure strike running. this is enough

[Zaheer]

I like the way people are testing with unrealistc Gear or asking for Nerf when it's still work in progress - do you realize most of the people don't run with T3 or even T2 armor ?

Yes we know that, why u think we state the stats with it.

[Arabani]

It can devastate for 330k, or it can hit for 30k, and the last one happens much more often. Once again, critical hits should never be a benchmark for developing a class. They are just an addition, a variable.

[Mukor]

It can devastate for 330k, or it can hit for 30k, and the last one happens much more often. Once again, critical hits should never be a benchmark for developing a class. They are just an addition, a variable.

This train left the station years ago.