Champions class need attention desperately.

[Arandour]

Champion at end game raids and fellowships at top tiers is the most hard dps class to play.Our dps output is lower than other dps classes and for us to do decent damage and be useful in a group we need to do perfect rotations,change damage type all the time, have very good gear and the harder of all making weapon swapping while we do every skill with 3 different Lis plus offhand so imagine how hard this is while many times the server have lag.
Now after burglars,yellow RKs and Wardens update we are even lower in "food chain".The only way a champion can be useful anymore is if he have the whole group for his advantage to mitigate his targets and the instance have many adds to be killed and i mean more than 3 cause if only 3 then burglars are more useful and they dont even have to turn from single to AOE like we do all the time.

-So in my opinion we need at least 15% more dps to Red line so it become viable and can keep up with other classes.

-We need to be more independent when it comes to mitigate targets.For example only in yellow line we have a 20% chance to bypass mitigation of the target for 15% and 10 sec duration, while RKs on yellow can mitigate 5% every 1 sec total 15% in 3 sec and hunters 5% every sec too with damaging skill plus fixed Bodkin Arrows 10% mit bypass from Red.We need something like that for Red line as well.For example you can make the Devastating strike instead of give 40% mitigation for that one skill to give 10-15% for all Red line skills.

-Skills like Fight on have 3 min cd and gives only 3% morale for 20 sec should go at least 5% with 2 min cd,Clobber from 10 sec should go to 8sec like Reavers in PVP have,Sprint have 3 min cd if you spend 3 points from traits,if not is completely useless with 5 min cd.

Do something cause the situation is real unfair here.Burglars do way more dps with not even have to try,yellow RKs too and even in Red they need only a lore master to do decent dps very easily while we need the whole group to work for us.

So give as some attention please.

[Mukor]

Not to forget that skills like deep strikes sometimes never do a single hit, cause of the missing initial dmg.
And yeah 100% sign that the survivalskills needs an upgeade same as the base dmg.

Won´t change much but just for mention.
Battle frenzy cd and phy mastery legacies is stucked since a few ranks.
Bladestrom self critbuff is still around 1k (=0) for our cuurent stats.

For the mitigationbypass problem I would like too see the raidsetbonus with crits and devastes bypass 20-30% (or even more) of the mitigations.

[jokor]

/signed

Op should made a petition.

For champion class update it's over because they finished their cycle and they start a new with pvpm update.

Maybe in 2021.

[Gertes]

I had exactly the same thing in mind today.
With now some experience now in the new instances, I was reminded again that the champion is so so much reliant on support from other classes to be really effective.
It makes worlds difference if my healer is a Berninger or an rk/mini, the physical mitigation debuff from the bear boosts my dps so insane. Usually, without support, I reach ~60k dps vs bosses and with a bear up to 90k+.

Just some numbers from the new testing dummies, i have gathered in my kin:
champ 60-70k (yellow reached similar numbers what is mostly due to the mitigation debuffs)
yellow rk 110-130k
burg ~115k

Champ needs (at least in red) some sort of reliable mitigation bypass so he becomes more independent on outside support. This will help him in 3man and 6mans, where you can't afford full support.

Every "competetiv" DD has some sort of good mitigation bypass.
°Hunter with Bodkin Arrows (10% mitigation bypass).
°Rk (yellow) 15% mitiagtion bypass with Writ of Lightning.
°Rk (red) -15% Armor with Molten Flame and -15% fire mits with Mystifying Flames.
°Burglar 10% mit bypass (with crit chain skills) by Location is Everything, also -5% critical defense with Vital Points or even more (aditional -10%) with Essence of the Critical Harmony
°Warden -5% (7,5-10% with double cast or uninspired weapon) mitigation with Diminished Target/Marked Target

To be fair Red champ has one bypass Devastation (devasting strike bypassed 40% mitigation), but this is jsut one, weak skill. If this trait would be changed to: All strikes skills bypass 10-15% of targets mitigation.
Champ would have one of his biggest weaknesses removed, the necessity of good group compositions to deal somewhatcompetetiv dps.

For the mitigationbypass problem I would like too see the raidsetbonus with crits and devastes bypass 20-30% (or even more) of the mitigations.

Fixing the biggest problem of the champ, with a raid set is no good idea, imo. With the next update the problem will occur again, also this would not heelp champs, to get spots in raids.

[Aldifrith]

/signed

Seems like champions skill dps scaling is pretty off. After every lvl-cap increase without class changes it gets worse. Just look at the poor base dmg of all skills (especially single target).

Some Questions:
How is it possible to have one of the highest crit multiplier and still hunters or burgs crits are three times bigger?
Why is the difference between full red line and full yellow line dps on one target ridiculously close again?
Every single buff/debuff with total numbers is useless again, why do we even have them?
etc. etc.

no total rework needed though, i like how its like to play champ atm and how they changed it last year
but by all means we need some tweaks regarding those outdated buffs/debuffs and base dmg numbers of almost all skills

[mrplaneswalker]

I had exactly the same thing in mind today.
With now some experience now in the new instances, I was reminded again that the champion is so so much reliant on support from other classes to be really effective.
It makes worlds difference if my healer is a Beorning or an rk/mini, the physical mitigation debuff from the bear boosts my dps so insane. Usually, without support, I reach ~60k dps vs bosses and with a bear up to 90k+.

Just some numbers from the new testing dummies, i have gathered in my kin:
champ 60-70k (yellow reached similar numbers what is mostly due to the mitigation debuffs)
yellow rk 110-130k
burg ~115k

Champ needs (at least in red) some sort of reliable mitigation bypass so he becomes more independent on outside support. This will help him in 3man and 6mans, where you can't afford full support.

I'm completely behind getting some tweaks. Reliable Mitigation bypass would be one way of going about it. My personal preference would be to dramatically reduce our crit scaling legacy and dramatically increase the base damage for ALL our skills.
Realistically, we need help. We're crit dependent which means we're gear dependent which makes us weak at the beginnings of expansions and strong at the ends. We've got some gnarly damage variations between dual wield & twohanders that should either be equalized or the "weapon mastery" trait needs a complete overhaul. Red line is in an awkward place, being dependent on frenzy to do damage (yellow line) and having similar damage potential to yellow line on single targets. Notwithstanding Deep Strikes not ticking immediately on application.

To any devs reading this thread, can we please get a hand? Raid set bonuses are... better than nothing but our class has some deep seated problems in all trait lines and it would be great if you could make the class stronger baseline so we aren't as reliant on temporary band-aid fixes as we've been getting since mordor, and before...

[Gothrir]

/signed

It's about time... Agree with all points above, we're too dependent on support and the perfect group composition; base damage is a joke. Some skills are missing normalization since Gondor - Flurry crit rating, Rend debuff, Horn debuff, etc. I feel like suitability is already decent, but is far behind other classes in the same role. Maybe Fight On can use can use a bump as a 'oh ####' skill considering its longer cooldown, but Bracing definitely needs a bigger buff, 6k heal is not even worth using, you're better off fishing for proc from renewing strikes / blade of courage.

About Deep Strikes, it could be an easy fix - just give the damage on the 0-th tick and add a 2s CD that it can't proc again - then you avoid the current situation of having the bleed constantly on, but rarely seeing the damage, and the 2 sec cooldown after then initial hit will prevent it of being too OP.

And please, please, please, PLEASE, fix dwarf champ skill animations. It's really disheartening putting in the same work to get ~10% less results, just because of racial clunky animations...

[Gorikon]

Agree with what was said.

Self heals:
- Bracing Attack needs to be buffed (maybe made percentage based?)
- Fight On is too weak and cooldown is too long. Should be changed to have a larger initial heal with a HoT afterwards.
- If someone plays blue line: Dire Need (blue line self heal) has become an absolute joke, since it derives its healing numbers from your maximum power value. Needs to be completely reworked.

Deep Strikes:
- Need an initial heal to avoid that constant refresh sometimes completely negates it...
- Could be changed to tier up. Since DS bleed it is based on Rend, and rend bleeds tier up, this shouldn't be too hard tom implement.


Also, I'd like to see a mechanic that fits the line description "Berserker". I imagine something like this:

Strike skills have a chance to apply a stack of "Berserk", ten stacks maximum. One stack gives something like +5% damage, +0.5% critical chance, +1% physical penetration, +5% power cost. (Numbers probably need to be tweaked & balanced.) You also get a "Finisher" strike skill that consumes existing stacks and deals more damage per stack consumed (for a really HARD hit with 10 stacks). So basically, the longer you stay in a fight, the more "berserk" you go with the drawback that your power cost gets so high it depletes your reserves. You start with lower dps than e.g. burg, but can surpass them in longer fights.

This should play out like this:
- Landscape: Not noticable with single mobs. Gives you an advantage for longer fights, and a finishing move for signatures.
- Three mans / Six mans without LM: Noticable damage buff, but you need to use your "Finisher" from time to time to get your power consumption under control.
- Six man with LM / Raid: Go full ARGLRARGLBLAAAAA, occasionally yelling at your LM that you NEED MOAR POWAH! Finisher can bes used tactically, e.g. when boss green bars at 70%, give him a nasty hit at 71%.

Thoughts?

[Aeganir]

/signed

Agreed that champ definitly needs more reliable self healing, percentage based healing would be the way to go (every class has %-healing right now, champ only has ####ty Fight On)

Deep Strikes:
- Need an initial heal to avoid that constant refresh sometimes completely negates it...
- Could be changed to tier up. Since DS bleed it is based on Rend, and rend bleeds tier up, this shouldn't be too hard tom implement.

I like the idea of stacking the bleed. For example: Initial hits on tier 1,2,3,4,5 - after tier 5 is on the target bleed has to run out and then it can be applied again starting from tier 1.

Not a friend of other new mechanics, I think the playstyle of champion is good as it is right now. I like to swap weapons, takes some effort. Still, champ definitly needs a base dmg bump. Crit magnitude got even worse now after lvl 130 scaling, even warden's get bigger crits now than champs.

Hope to see some changes here and there.

[zaboch]

Gertes are you really hitting 65-75k on a Red Champ? My Guardian's best parse was 52k and my LM was around 40k.

Damn, the Champs took a hit with this update then and this feels really sad. Hopefully, they'll get attention soon.

/signed

[Gertes]

Also, I'd like to see a mechanic that fits the line description "Berserker". I imagine something like this:

Strike skills have a chance to apply a stack of "Berserk", ten stacks maximum. One stack gives something like +5% damage, +0.5% critical chance, +1% physical penetration, +5% power cost. (Numbers probably need to be tweaked & balanced.) You also get a "Finisher" strike skill that consumes existing stacks and deals more damage per stack consumed (for a really HARD hit with 10 stacks). So basically, the longer you stay in a fight, the more "berserk" you go with the drawback that your power cost gets so high it depletes your reserves. You start with lower dps than e.g. burg, but can surpass them in longer fights.

I don't know if you remember the old continues bloodlust, this defined for me the red champ in the past.
You take more damage, but also deal more.
The description Berserker for redline is currently simply not fitting.

My solution would be, bring back the old continues bloodlust in some shape or form.
For example, it ticks up every 3 sec like (similar to duel) it has a maximum of 10 stacks. Each stack provides +5% mele Damage 0,5%crit chance, -5% incoming heal and +5 damage taken.
So you end up after 30sec with +50%meledamge, 5% crit , -50% incoming healing and +50% damage taken.

Something like this, i think the devs can get very creative here, to but the berserker playstyle in a more fitting shape.

[pinlu]

/Signed , my feelings are expressed as displayed by others above, and moving bracing attack to % and fight on to have quicker pulses with a shorter cooldown would lead to it having its own emergency cooldowns which it has lacked since the release of trait lines in comparison to before the changes .

[Schaijian]

Absolutely agreed. Champion is in dire need of a damage upgrade. The base damage must be increased in a way that the mobs do not think we want to pet them if our hits don't crit.
Additionally to many good thoughts in this thread I think that our crit magnitude legacy should work for devastating hits, too. At the moment it is rather ridiculous to have crits that are 50% higher than dev crits.
And talking of ridiculous...I'm looking at you 1293.... do I have to say more?

[oppoiuuyyere]

/signed

Agree..Champs need a good fix on their dps.

[Sthrax]

/signed

Other posts in the thread cover my thoughts quite nicely.

[Thurallor]

Based on this, Champs should be next on the list for some attention from Vastin.

[Andolvar]

/ signed

[Thoringir]

/signed

[Freenen]

/signed

[Araphorn]

Lots of positivity and some really great suggestions here, which is very nice to see.

I will add my signature here too.

/signed

[LoopingLouie]

/signed

please give some love to champ

[Casmond]

I'm kind of annoyed that Fear Nothing only removes one debuff. Sure, you can get the legacy that lowers the cooldown. But, then you are giving up something else. Previously, this wasn't much of an issue, but the mobs these days are really heavy on debuffs and other melee classes remove 3 at a time (example: Beorning). If you don't acquire the legacy you can remove one debuff every 45 seconds. That's not helpful.

[Askelin]

Champion is probably the dps class I've the most experience on but after levelling one to about mid 40-50 I've noticed they lack something that the updated classes have.
I think champions have the potential to dish out some of the best AOE DPS in the game but to make it happen takes far too much effort for what it's worth. Even Wardens probably have an easier time to get their bleeds going especially considering they have been recently blessed with an additional 2 DoT pulses.
Hunters and burgs are currently in the best positions with Beornings coming in close third if not just for their sheer versatility and more generous skill scaling.
Champs are a fun class, but in desperate need of some attention.
-Signed (although I'm not a champ bro)

[mikkye]

Champion at end game raids and fellowships at top tiers is the most hard dps class to play.Our dps output is lower than other dps classes and for us to do decent damage and be useful in a group we need to do perfect rotations,change damage type all the time, have very good gear and the harder of all making weapon swapping while we do every skill with 3 different Lis plus offhand so imagine how hard this is while many times the server have lag.
Now after burglars,yellow RKs and Wardens update we are even lower in "food chain".The only way a champion can be useful anymore is if he have the whole group for his advantage to mitigate his targets and the instance have many adds to be killed and i mean more than 3 cause if only 3 then burglars are more useful and they dont even have to turn from single to AOE like we do all the time.

-So in my opinion we need at least 10-15% more dps to Red line and about 5% to Yellow.

-We need to be more independent when it comes to mitigate targets.For example only in yellow we have a 20% chance to bypass mitigation of the target for 15%, while RKs on yellow can mitigate 5% every 1 sec total 15% in 3 sec, meaning that they almost dont need any support and hunters 5% every sec too with damaging skills.You should give as more than 20% chance while in Yellow and also we need something like that for Red line as well.For example you can make Horn of Gondor in Red to mitigate percentages and not only -7300 that it is right now.

-Skills like Fight on have 3 min cd and gives only 3% morale for 20 sec should go at least 5% with 2 min cd,Clobber from 10 sec should go to 8sec like Reavers in PVP have,Sprint have 3 min cd if you spend 3 points from traits,if not is completely useless with 5 min cd.

Do something cause the situation is real unfair here.Burglars do way more dps with not even have to try,yellow RKs too and even in Red they need only a lore master to do decent dps very easily while we need the whole group to work for us.
So give as some attention please.Thank you for your time.

I also feel that champion like hunter is a dps only class with slight tankiness abilities in blueline but predominantly dps. With that being said champion should have very good dps syellow should be roughly lower on st than red but sustainable and not purged by endless evades.

You cant really give classes that can only dps not one of the highest unfair and makes one class easily chosen over the other.

Burglar should've never happened it had drastic affects on pvmp balance also gave a high single target dps'sing melee class aoe dps capabilities... idk why this happened I argued against it long ago but it was allowed and now other classes who are less versatile are being left behind in favored of the new wave of burglar rk capt combos all because they each can perform 2 class roles very well instead of 1 like champion and other classes.


A champions should have a better survival self heal since it constantly takes aggro from crowds of npc's in mob clears throughout the game. I'd assume a heal like self motivation or conviction aoe healing would be nice since champions typically would lead charge into group of enemies in the books I hear this would be all lines.

Another survival skillt hat would be nice is something like a weaker guardians pledge but much weaker but strong enough and low enough cd to be effective and relied upon for yellow line champion only.

[arrgy]

There is something seriously wrong, when a little hobbit armed with a little dagger and hiding like a coward in the shadows, and blind luck can do insanely more damage then a combat warrior wielding two blades.

/signed