State of the Runekeeper - post revamp

[Chris91]

Ok, so I thought I'd take the time to write down my thoughts of where the Runekeeper currently stand in all 3 specs. This is not a "Runekeeper needs desparate attention right now !!!" thread but rather just an analysis of the current state and wishes going forward especially when we go towards finetuning after the first round of relatively rough class revamps


Healing:
- from a raw hps/defensive point of view the class is in a good spot
- the rotation is also great, skill potency vs cooldown is fine
- single target healing is clearly the classes strength compared to other healers while AoE healing is more challenging (which is good design)
- the scaling of ratings that happened recently has buffed the already significant support arsenal of the Minstrel while we still have no support

What I'd do
- my first suggestion would be to implement the old featured instance set bonus as a blue line trait bonus (increasing inc crit from Flurry of Words from 3% to 8%)
- anything else that helps the group offensively, whether thats buffs or debuffs is fine
- except for support no other changes are needed

Lightning:
- overall the damage is in a good spot solo and in 3 man instances
- for 6mans and raids the Lightning RK suffers from the fact that there is no outside mitigation debuffs for lightning damage (except 5% from Warden)
- the new semi-melee playstyle is great and should be expanded
- some skills are unfortunately useless (most important our signature skill Epic Conclusion)
- our capstone Concession and Rebuttal is badly designed (if one uses a rotation that maximizes dps one wastes CnR stacks, if one maximizes usage of CnR stack one loses dps)

What I'd do
- increase the proc chance for Static Surge from 10% to 15% (as I said, I like the new almost melee playstyle and think it should be expanded)
- Epic Conclusion should get it's damage increased to similiar values as Static Surge and Vivid Imagery (currently with full attunement and Closing Remarks buff Static Surge's tooltip 85k-110k, Vivid Imagery is 83k-118k and Epic Conclusion is only 67-87k)
- Epic Conclusion should no longer consume Closing Remarks, as long as that is the case the skill will be virtually useless, as Closing Remarks is just too strong a buff to cash it out. Removing all attunement is enough od a tradeoff (as that also means removing 9% Critical chance)
- Epic Conclusion should get it's range reduced to 5-7m (as I said, being a light armoured melee class is cool and all our big hitters are 5m, now that the other 2 changes would make Epic Conclusion epic again I think this would further add to the uniqueness of the class)
- Revamp Concession and Rebuttal:
"Concession and Rebuttal" becomes a passive mechanic of the class, critical hits with skills that consume attunement (or all hits with skills that consume attunement? subject to balance) generate 1 stack of "Concession and Rebuttal". The capstone skill "Concession and Rebuttal" still generates 5 stacks immediately.
Stacks of Concession and Rebuttal are no longer consumed by the buffed skills directly, instead they are consumed by Scribe's Spark. Using Scribe's Spark with Concession and Rebuttal stacks removes 1 stack and buffs the next skill that follows to it's CnR version (similiar to how improved Feint Attack unlocks the Stealth version of certain Burglar skills)

This would fix multiple things:
Scribe's Spark is useless and RKs don't have it on their skill bar -> the skill would play a role in the rotation
Currently you waste CnR stacks when you refresh for example T3 Writ of Lightning even though a normal Writ of Lightning would be enough -> since you now would be able to choose whether to spend the stack independent from using the skill through the use of Scribe's Spark you could use CnR stacks optimally while at the same time also using an optimal dps rotation

- some support class needs a debuff for ~-15% lightning mitigation so that we have the same jump from solo to raid support that other classes have
- giving us the Abyss lightning set bonus on 130 raid gear can work as a short term bandaid, but I'd really like to see support across damage types equalized

Fire:
- the damage isn't that great however Fire provides good support and is easy to play
- with lightning being a proper single target line (especially if the support problem is adressed) Fire could take more of an AoE/support approach

What I'd do
- change the Mystifying Flames trait from having 3 ranks to 1 rank (currently different versions of that trait stack, so 1 RK could provide a 15% fire mit debuff, another one a 10% one). This makes the already OP Fire Mitigation debuffs even stronger
- use the 2 freed up trait ranks for a new trait +1/+2 AoE skill targets
- reduce the cooldown of Combustion from 15s to 12s
- maybe reduce the damage of Smouldering Wrath and Essay of Fire by ~10% (that kinda depends where Fire sits compared to other classes in raid scenarios)

I'd like Fire to be somewhere between a pure dps class (which lightning should be) and a support class (like yellow Burg) when it comes to single target, with it being used for AoE primarily or to buff other dps while still providing decent damage

So these are my current thoughts

[Hephburz-2]

Lightning:
- for 6mans and raids the Lightning RK suffers from the fact that there is no outside mitigation debuffs for lightning damage (except 5% from Warden)
- some skills are unfortunately useless (most important our signature skill Epic Conclusion)
- our capstone Concession and Rebuttal is badly designed (if one uses a rotation that maximizes dps one wastes CnR stacks, if one maximizes usage of CnR stack one loses dps)

I disagree with mostly what you've stated here.

Following on from the recent ratings increase in last weeks update 25.2 I did some testing with LM+Champ on the bosses in the Tier 5 3mans, and my results were as follows; the bosses have Incredible mitigations to all sources without any debuffs, this is the second highest mitigation a target is able to have. After placing both Ancient Craft + Rend on the target, the mitigations dropped to Average (Visusal representation Incredible > Remarkable > Superior > Good > Fair > Average (The only two below Average are Poor > Feeble)), and this is just with two base debuffs that will be present on most if not all targets in group/raid content.

If you then throw in the lightning RKs own -15% mitigation debuff + Warden + other potential debuffs like the Captain Herald/Archer armour rend debuff, you are looking at bringing everything down to feeble anyway. (As evidence, after using Ancient Craft + Rend, I then used Tar + Benediction of the Raven on the target, and the targets Fire Mit was already on Feeble and this is without any Fire RK debuffs).

So I disagree with your point about lightning RK suffering.

--

In terms of Epic Conclusion and C&R - here are my thoughts. I believe C&R has too long a cooldown, and EC only works well when used in conjuction with C&R. I see this is a DPS increase not decrease, let me explain:

Ceaseless argument does more damage that writ of lightning in all situations, so other than the need to re-apply the debuff, I am not using WoL, generally I throw it in just before I use Essence of Storm. Vivid Imagery & Static Surge are used off cooldown, Sustaining bolt is only used with the Static buff - Shocking Words / Scribe's Spark are never used, and EC is only used in conjuction with C&R.

Now moving on; after making sure you have tier 3 WoL on the target, and waiting until you have the closing remarks buff (So after you use EC the cooldown is halved), you then pop C&R and use EC > WoL > EC > WoL > EC, only using EC when you have the closing remarks buff, you have 15seconds between each EC to re-proc this buff, I have found it very rarely it is NOT up by the time you want to cast the next EC, during the time C&R is active, you simply avoid using Sustaining Bolt, and spam ceaseless (EoS / VI off cooldown and SS if procs, none of which consume a C&R stack), using WoL to refresh the buff before it expires.

This results in more DPS than not using C&R / EC - at least from my own testing.

[Krindel]

Minstrel can debuff light mitigation by more than 200k which should help to increase damage of yellow RK and Warden, but Call of Earendil is low range skill in Resonance and Melody Stance and debuff duration is only 10s, also healing minstrels usualy do not bother to trait this skill and their finesse is too low anyway.
Edit: I am sorry, light and lightning are two different damage types, ignore my post.

[Hephburz-2]

Minstrel can debuff light mitigation by more than 200k which should help to increase damage of yellow RK and Warden, but Call of Earendil is low range skill in Resonance and Melody Stance and debuff duration is only 10s, also healing minstrels usualy do not bother to trait this skill and their finesse is too low anyway.

Again, not true.

There is a difference between Light damage and Lightning damage - Wardens, Minstrels, Captains and LMs all have access to light damage skills (even Hunters if they use light-oils), but Rks are Lightning or Fire, and thus the minstrels debuff from Call of Earendil / Orome does not affect their damage.

[Zariliv92]

I disagree with mostly what you've stated here.

Following on from the recent ratings increase in last weeks update 25.2 I did some testing with LM+Champ on the bosses in the Tier 5 3mans, and my results were as follows; the bosses have Incredible mitigations to all sources without any debuffs, this is the second highest mitigation a target is able to have. After placing both Ancient Craft + Rend on the target, the mitigations dropped to Average (Visusal representation Incredible > Remarkable > Superior > Good > Fair > Average (The only two below Average are Poor > Feeble)), and this is just with two base debuffs that will be present on most if not all targets in group/raid content.

If you then throw in the lightning RKs own -15% mitigation debuff + Warden + other potential debuffs like the Captain Herald/Archer armour rend debuff, you are looking at bringing everything down to feeble anyway. (As evidence, after using Ancient Craft + Rend, I then used Tar + Benediction of the Raven on the target, and the targets Fire Mit was already on Feeble and this is without any Fire RK debuffs).

So I disagree with your point about lightning RK suffering.

--

In terms of Epic Conclusion and C&R - here are my thoughts. I believe C&R has too long a cooldown, and EC only works well when used in conjuction with C&R. I see this is a DPS increase not decrease, let me explain:

Ceaseless argument does more damage that writ of lightning in all situations, so other than the need to re-apply the debuff, I am not using WoL, generally I throw it in just before I use Essence of Storm. Vivid Imagery & Static Surge are used off cooldown, Sustaining bolt is only used with the Static buff - Shocking Words / Scribe's Spark are never used, and EC is only used in conjuction with C&R.

Now moving on; after making sure you have tier 3 WoL on the target, and waiting until you have the closing remarks buff (So after you use EC the cooldown is halved), you then pop C&R and use EC > WoL > EC > WoL > EC, only using EC when you have the closing remarks buff, you have 15seconds between each EC to re-proc this buff, I have found it very rarely it is NOT up by the time you want to cast the next EC, during the time C&R is active, you simply avoid using Sustaining Bolt, and spam ceaseless (EoS / VI off cooldown and SS if procs, none of which consume a C&R stack), using WoL to refresh the buff before it expires.

This results in more DPS than not using C&R / EC - at least from my own testing.

in my experience you loose dmg when you use EC, even with C&R, it doesnt matter... The loss of closing remarks and whole attunement is simply too big, its like up to 30% crit chance and some crit dmg for the next 10-20 seconds?(depending on how lucky you are)

getting attunement back also takes more time than in red, as CA only gives you one attunement

it may not be a dmg loss if EC crits, but im not in for gambling^^

[Gorikon]

In reference to:

Now moving on; after making sure you have tier 3 WoL on the target, and waiting until you have the closing remarks buff (So after you use EC the cooldown is halved), you then pop C&R and use EC > WoL > EC > WoL > EC, only using EC when you have the closing remarks buff, you have 15seconds between each EC to re-proc this buff, I have found it very rarely it is NOT up by the time you want to cast the next EC, during the time C&R is active, you simply avoid using Sustaining Bolt, and spam ceaseless (EoS / VI off cooldown and SS if procs, none of which consume a C&R stack), using WoL to refresh the buff before it expires.

This results in more DPS than not using C&R / EC - at least from my own testing.

Ok, when you use C&R in conjunction with EC like you describe, you gain a bit DPS. Doesnt change that...
- C&R is badly designed. You have to avoid all other skills that consume a charge to get that DPS gain. A well designed buff would give each consuming skill something worthwile. It certainly doesn't.
- When C&R is on cooldown, you probably do not use EC either. Because in this scenario, it decreases DPS, since it
-- consument attunement
-- consumes Closing Remarks
-- even when consuming both & critting, doesn't hit hard enough to justify losing both buffs, and that's WITH Rune-satchel legacy.

Also:

Shocking Words / Scribe's Spark are never used

I think we can agree this is bad design, too. Another two skills that aren't used.
- Scribe's Spark needs some kind of additional effect that makes it worth using. At the moment, is does the same thing as Ceaseless Argument, only worse.
- Shocking Words is ok if you need to stun something. The damage alone doesn't justify loosing attunement.

The only attunement consumer we use regularily at the moment is Sustaining Bolt, and only when the Charged buff is active, so it does _not_ consume attunement. Consumer skills should hit hard enough to justify loosing the buff that attunement gives us.

[Chris91]

I disagree with mostly what you've stated here.

Following on from the recent ratings increase in last weeks update 25.2 I did some testing with LM+Champ on the bosses in the Tier 5 3mans, and my results were as follows; the bosses have Incredible mitigations to all sources without any debuffs, this is the second highest mitigation a target is able to have. After placing both Ancient Craft + Rend on the target, the mitigations dropped to Average (Visusal representation Incredible > Remarkable > Superior > Good > Fair > Average (The only two below Average are Poor > Feeble)), and this is just with two base debuffs that will be present on most if not all targets in group/raid content.

If you then throw in the lightning RKs own -15% mitigation debuff + Warden + other potential debuffs like the Captain Herald/Archer armour rend debuff, you are looking at bringing everything down to feeble anyway. (As evidence, after using Ancient Craft + Rend, I then used Tar + Benediction of the Raven on the target, and the targets Fire Mit was already on Feeble and this is without any Fire RK debuffs).

So I disagree with your point about lightning RK suffering.

I'll be honest, I haven't tested it yet..it's on my to do list

If they overscaled ratings so much that 15-20% percentage based debuff is enough to reduce raid boss mits to very low well I guess we'll be fine for now

I'd still like them to take a look at the debuffs and kinda equalize them across damage types..after all this is not a "fix us now" thread, we'll be fine (not toping the charts but competitive), but more of a long term wishlist when they do a second round of class passes

In terms of Epic Conclusion and C&R - here are my thoughts. I believe C&R has too long a cooldown, and EC only works well when used in conjuction with C&R. I see this is a DPS increase not decrease, let me explain:

Ceaseless argument does more damage that writ of lightning in all situations, so other than the need to re-apply the debuff, I am not using WoL, generally I throw it in just before I use Essence of Storm. Vivid Imagery & Static Surge are used off cooldown, Sustaining bolt is only used with the Static buff - Shocking Words / Scribe's Spark are never used, and EC is only used in conjuction with C&R.

Now moving on; after making sure you have tier 3 WoL on the target, and waiting until you have the closing remarks buff (So after you use EC the cooldown is halved), you then pop C&R and use EC > WoL > EC > WoL > EC, only using EC when you have the closing remarks buff, you have 15seconds between each EC to re-proc this buff, I have found it very rarely it is NOT up by the time you want to cast the next EC, during the time C&R is active, you simply avoid using Sustaining Bolt, and spam ceaseless (EoS / VI off cooldown and SS if procs, none of which consume a C&R stack), using WoL to refresh the buff before it expires.

This results in more DPS than not using C&R / EC - at least from my own testing.

I completely disagree, CnR is just badly designed..

Even IF we assume that using CnR EC does improve dps (I haven't seen that in my tests), what essentially happens when you do your rotation is EC takes the place of Sustaining Bolt and vice versa during the CnR window
You'd use EC with procs and Sustaining Bolt not at all rather than Sustaining Bolt with procs and EC not at all

That is NO improvement for how the class plays and feels at all, it's just a sidegrade. And even then, I second the opinion that if EC does not crit you loose dps

The only advantage your suggestion has over mine is it's easier to implement in terms of development time spent, but since we don't need immediate attention that should not be a concern. I'd rather wait longer to get the horribly flawed capstone working in a well designed fashion rather than have that horribly flawed thing a little more often

I second everything Gorikon said

[Gorikon]

it may not be a dmg loss if EC crits, but im not in for gambling^^

I second the opinion that if EC does not crit you loose dps

Hmm. This gives me an idea. How about:
- base damage of Epic Conclusion is bumped up a bit
- EC still consumes Closing Remarks buff. But instead of giving a damage buff, cashing out CR guarantees a crit?

I still do use EC from time to time, but only when the CR buff is one or two seconds away from running out anyway. Then, the only problem remaining is the low damage of the non-crit. A guaranteed crit would solve that, and people would fire away happily.

Anyone having a good idea for a mechanic that would make Shocking Words interesting again? (Apart from a simple DPS buff)

[honidian]

I know this thread is kind of old, but I was inspired to throw my thoughts in the ring since most of the abilities that RKs get as capstones are lackluster.

Hmm. This gives me an idea. How about:
- base damage of Epic Conclusion is bumped up a bit
- EC still consumes Closing Remarks buff. But instead of giving a damage buff, cashing out CR guarantees a crit?

I still do use EC from time to time, but only when the CR buff is one or two seconds away from running out anyway. Then, the only problem remaining is the low damage of the non-crit. A guaranteed crit would solve that, and people would fire away happily.

Anyone having a good idea for a mechanic that would make Shocking Words interesting again? (Apart from a simple DPS buff)

I don't think a guaranteed crit on CR EC is a good idea over having 40% increased damage on the attack. Instead, I'd make it so Scribe's Spark can trigger guaranteed crits on attunement consumers, or increasing crit chance for those abilities depending on how much attunement is consumed. Right now, I just throw SS into my rotation to at least be dealing some damage but I think it would be more interesting if we needed to think about HOW we use that ability. Adding some interaction with attunement consumers would help with making the class more rewarding for skilled players.

I agree that SW is often not used because losing attunement isn't worth a 5.5 second stun on one person. That being said, the above addition to SS could add some extra effects to your abilities; Integrate CnR into SS so whenever you use the ability it gives you a stack, which can be consumed for an empowered ability.
--SW now deals half damage and dazes in an area in addition to stunning the original target (and either a bigger lightning bolt or more lightning bolts to show the power) instead of the CURRENT: applies a slow after the stun ends
--SB restoring power is fine
--WoL giving three stacks is great because we can use it on an add to rapidly reduce mitigations
--EC applies a DoT for a portion of the damage dealt (anyone know what % of damage is applied as a DoT?) this also can stay

I think the problem lies with SS not being a good basic ability, and reworking it slightly to give us buffs that we can consume, or debuffs on enemies would be nice.