Dps

[MaxHunter]

Wanna do dps? Buy a Rk or a Warden

[Strider5548]

The hunter forum is almost completely dead, I suspect because most people stopped playing hunters now that they are a broken class, however we've got 3 pages here since January and with all the updates that have gone through there has been no acknowledgement of this issue from SSG. There was one update note that said "hunter damage is increased slightly" but no clarification on how or what %. 'Slightly' is a slap in the face when burgs/wardens/RK's are easily doing 2x the DPS of hunters with comparable gear.

There are significant issues with the hunter right now, we have a SINGLE usable trait line that provides ZERO group utility aside from DPS, yet we have extremely low DPS outputs. Blue and yellow need to be fixed, of course, but an immediate short term solution also needs to be applied to significantly boost the damage output of hunters. If hunters are not the top ST DPS class in the game then there is no reason to bring them to a group. If I can have a Warden that does more DPS and can off-tank when our MT goes down (yes I've seen it happen before in Remm more than once), if a burg can do more DPS than a hunter and significantly debuff the boss, if an RK can do significantly more DPS and provide the group with DNFs and debuff the mob and even switch to be a main healer if they want, then why on earth would you ever want a hunter? Now, nobody is even asking for hunters to be the top ST DPS in the game. I think they should be, but the fact that they are a fraction of literally every other class except champs means bringing a hunter into Remm is a waste of a spot.

But at least we can set campfires and port you to Bree....

[nikolaradic]

hunter never bean good class ,true have good dps in blue line but problem weth power was only on hunter no one else having thad and for bigest dps you needed too change tree ,bow and rest stuff now red hunter is have low damage if you compare too rk/burg/warden aoe dont even wanted talk basic not exist anymore and after playing in red last allmost 1 year i got feling thad in rotation mising 1 skill thad be beter dps and have too motch cd on skills too induction is big and anyme is slow and too motch quick shot skill used in batlle long fight

[Turuin]

Good afternoon,

Before I lay into the complaints, a few things about this thread have bothered me. I'd like to take a moment to address those first:

1. The new areas are amazing. Mordor Besieged, the Vale of Morgul and Minas Morgul are the best areas I've seen in LOTRO since Moria. I hope the developers don't feel the players on this thread are complaining about the zones and quest lines. They are, and I really mean this, the best content this game has seen in a very long time. Rounding the bend and seeing Minas Morgul for the first time, or fighting Nazgul in landscape... it's incredible. Well done.

2. Equal to the zones and quests are the instances, particularly Halls of Black Lore and Remmorchant. When I saw the cook appear in Black Lore for the first time I about lost it. He's by far my favorite boss fight from any instance (Would you like that pan seared?) XD Seeing him and the several other fights from previous encounters was a blast, and the final boss is a well-written villain. Remmorchant's boss three, the Pale Herald, is the most challenging encounter I've seen since Unbroken One. It's been a lot of fun to learn all the mechanics and build strats around them. I think it will remain a challenge, similar to UO, for a long time. Again, well done.

3. Last, even though many of us are envious of the DPS other classes are currently putting out, I think we're also glad that some of them are getting their time to shine. It's been a long time coming for Beorning and Warden, who seemed like neglected step children for a long while. I'm personally really happy that some of my friends who main Bear are getting to raid consistently on the class they love. Same with Warden. Please don't nerf these classes - it means a lot to the people who main them to have such significant potential in raid content.

Alright, all that said, and I do mean all of it - SSG, we really do need to talk about Hunter and Champion. These two classes are currently in terrible spots. RK DPS can reach upward of 500k in raids, with Epic Conclusion hitting for 2.5 million, with Burglar and Warden close behind them. Well geared Hunter DPS struggles to maintain 200k in a raid, and will more than likely fall down to 120k-160k DPS. Hunter's hardest hitting skills, Upshot and Heart Seeker, crit for 350k-440k with average gear. I'd ballpark HS hitting for 500k with best in slot gear, but my Hunter isn't there yet. For your reference, a poorly geared RK with sub-optimal rotation can parse 200k in a raid. Easily. Their ECs will crit for 1 million - 2 million. It's awkward.

This difference is a disaster for the Hunter class. It's a real problem. Blue line is not viable in group content, as the DPS is even lower than red, and yellow's debuffs and DPS output aren't useful enough to replace a Lore Master or Burglar.

My advice? I would increase Upshot and HS damage. Crits on average gear should be between 600k and 800k. With best in slot, they should both be hitting for between 900k to 1.3 million on a crit. Minimum. Hunter bleed damage skills, Blood Arrow, Exanguinate, and HS bleed, should all be buffed by ~20-40%. This will help with Hunter's sustained damage and keep us in the 300k DPS range. Still well below RK, but at least we'll look like a DPS class at that point, and not as bad as red Captain. The other option would be to keep bleed damage where it is, but significantly increase the damage of Quick Shot, maybe even as high as ~50%. As this is our primary Focus builder and is used frequently, it will also help level our sustained DPS to the 300k range.

Whatever you guys end up doing, I encourage you to reach out to Hunter players and see how bad it is. There are a lot of us out there who love this class, and while it's good that other classes are seeing the time of day, we shouldn't be 50% behind the best DPS class in the game. At our lowest, we should be around 20% behind, which, at this point, is about 300k DPS sustained in a raid.

Thanks for your time,

Rob

[Strider5548]

Good afternoon,

Before I lay into the complaints, a few things about this thread have bothered me. I'd like to take a moment to address those first:

1. The new areas are amazing. Mordor Besieged, the Vale of Morgul and Minas Morgul are the best areas I've seen in LOTRO since Moria. I hope the developers don't feel the players on this thread are complaining about the zones and quest lines. They are, and I really mean this, the best content this game has seen in a very long time. Rounding the bend and seeing Minas Morgul for the first time, or fighting Nazgul in landscape... it's incredible. Well done.

2. Equal to the zones and quests are the instances, particularly Halls of Black Lore and Remmorchant. When I saw the cook appear in Black Lore for the first time I about lost it. He's by far my favorite boss fight from any instance (Would you like that pan seared?) XD Seeing him and the several other fights from previous encounters was a blast, and the final boss is a well-written villain. Remmorchant's boss three, the Pale Herald, is the most challenging encounter I've seen since Unbroken One. It's been a lot of fun to learn all the mechanics and build strats around them. I think it will remain a challenge, similar to UO, for a long time. Again, well done.

3. Last, even though many of us are envious of the DPS other classes are currently putting out, I think we're also glad that some of them are getting their time to shine. It's been a long time coming for Beorning and Warden, who seemed like neglected step children for a long while. I'm personally really happy that some of my friends who main Bear are getting to raid consistently on the class they love. Same with Warden. Please don't nerf these classes - it means a lot to the people who main them to have such significant potential in raid content.

Alright, all that said, and I do mean all of it - SSG, we really do need to talk about Hunter and Champion. These two classes are currently in terrible spots. RK DPS can reach upward of 500k in raids, with Epic Conclusion hitting for 2.5 million, with Burglar and Warden close behind them. Well geared Hunter DPS struggles to maintain 200k in a raid, and will more than likely fall down to 120k-160k DPS. Hunter's hardest hitting skills, Upshot and Heart Seeker, crit for 350k-440k with average gear. I'd ballpark HS hitting for 500k with best in slot gear, but my Hunter isn't there yet. For your reference, a poorly geared RK with sub-optimal rotation can parse 200k in a raid. Easily. Their ECs will crit for 1 million - 2 million. It's awkward.

This difference is a disaster for the Hunter class. It's a real problem. Blue line is not viable in group content, as the DPS is even lower than red, and yellow's debuffs and DPS output aren't useful enough to replace a Lore Master or Burglar.

My advice? I would increase Upshot and HS damage. Crits on average gear should be between 600k and 800k. With best in slot, they should both be hitting for between 900k to 1.3 million on a crit. Minimum. Hunter bleed damage skills, Blood Arrow, Exanguinate, and HS bleed, should all be buffed by ~20-40%. This will help with Hunter's sustained damage and keep us in the 300k DPS range. Still well below RK, but at least we'll look like a DPS class at that point, and not as bad as red Captain. The other option would be to keep bleed damage where it is, but significantly increase the damage of Quick Shot, maybe even as high as ~50%. As this is our primary Focus builder and is used frequently, it will also help level our sustained DPS to the 300k range.

Whatever you guys end up doing, I encourage you to reach out to Hunter players and see how bad it is. There are a lot of us out there who love this class, and while it's good that other classes are seeing the time of day, we shouldn't be 50% behind the best DPS class in the game. At our lowest, we should be around 20% behind, which, at this point, is about 300k DPS sustained in a raid.

Thanks for your time,

Rob

Great post, I agree with everything you wrote, including the positive stuff. I too don't want to see anyone nerfed, I want to see champs and hunters buffed significantly.

Your suggestion about boosting damage for HS and Upshot is great, I made a suggestion earlier that Upshot should increase crit % chance and magnitude based on how much focus you have, if you unleash upshot with a full focus bar it should almost guarantee a crit. Our DoTs used to be good if you traited for them, now they are pathetic, we should be doing 2x the pulses we have currently and barbed arrow should stack at least 2 times. Penetrating shot debuff should also stack like barrage (up to 3x getting stronger each time), and the debuff should not ignore fire/light oil (nobody is using oils because of this).

There's a ton of other stuff they could easily do to fix hunters or even improve them to make us all happy and stop complaining. Move a couple bow legacies to melee for example. Give us better corruption removal that isn't melee and on 60s CD. Make our bubble not a complete joke.

I could keep listing things but I have made far too many forum threads/comments about this.

[mkcraft27]

Hunter's hardest hitting skills, Upshot and Heart Seeker, crit for 350k-440k with average gear. I'd ballpark HS hitting for 500k with best in slot gear, but my Hunter isn't there yet.

Upshot and heart seeker both hit for way over 1 million in a raid setting when geared. My record heart seeker is 1.98 million.

[zaboch]

Upshot and heart seeker both hit for way over 1 million in a raid setting when geared. My record heart seeker is 1.98 million.

1) Shelob doesn't count.

2) Still low, compared to other geared classes. Burglars can pull off 2m per hit with Flashing Blades and RKs Vivid Imagery hits well above 3m.

[mkcraft27]

1) Shelob doesn't count.

2) Still low, compared to other geared classes. Burglars can pull off 2m per hit with Flashing Blades and RKs Vivid Imagery hits well above 3m.

1) Good thing it wasnt on shelob then, it was boss 3

2) Im well aware other classes hit for way more. Im just pointing out that saying HS would hit for 500k when fully geared is nowhere close to what hunters can actually hit for.

[RicoFTW]

The fact that one or two skills can hit for a lot doesn't mean that hunter's damage is ok. If devs would have a closer look at what Ceaseless Argument can hit for (300k - 700k per crit depending on buffs) and compare it to Quick Shot damage (spamable skill with 0 cooldown just like Ceaseless). Pretty much permanent 59% crit chance for yellow RKs is a bit too much as well in my opinion.

[Turuin]

Upshot and heart seeker both hit for way over 1 million in a raid setting when geared. My record heart seeker is 1.98 million.

Thanks! That's good to know and some relief. A few questions, if you don't mind - were Oathbreakers up? Was Burn Hot active? Were you using a raid armor set?

[Turuin]

The fact that one or two skills can hit for a lot doesn't mean that hunter's damage is ok. If devs would have a closer look at what Ceaseless Argument can hit for (300k - 700k per crit depending on buffs) and compare it to Quick Shot damage (spamable skill with 0 cooldown just like Ceaseless). Pretty much permanent 59% crit chance for yellow RKs is a bit too much as well in my opinion.

^ Yep.

[Strider5548]

The fact that one or two skills can hit for a lot doesn't mean that hunter's damage is ok. If devs would have a closer look at what Ceaseless Argument can hit for (300k - 700k per crit depending on buffs) and compare it to Quick Shot damage (spamable skill with 0 cooldown just like Ceaseless). Pretty much permanent 59% crit chance for yellow RKs is a bit too much as well in my opinion.

Wow, they can hit for that hard? Makes me cry. I am not elite by any means but I have over 200% phys mastery and over 25% crit and the biggest crit I've ever had was on T1 Remm first boss, heart seeker for just over 700k damage. That's a 90s CD skill, quickshots crits are less than 50k....

[Kander]

Wow, they can hit for that hard? Makes me cry. I am not elite by any means but I have over 200% phys mastery and over 25% crit and the biggest crit I've ever had was on T1 Remm first boss, heart seeker for just over 700k damage. That's a 90s CD skill, quickshots crits are less than 50k....

Technically HS is not a 90s cd skill as every crit and dev reduces the CD by 2/4 seconds, at the end of a fight on average you use 1 HS each 30-40s max.
Anyways quick shot hits for too low, in the end almost all your damage comes from upshot + HS + spamming quick shot for recovering those 2 as fast as possible, and I'd say many focus skills are a total joke in terms of damage compared to what they used to be. Blood arrow is only worth using to activate exsanguinate + pen shot is only worth using for keeping buff active, rain of arrows is not even worth traiting as the aoe dps output is minimal with that long cd unless you have 10 targets. In the end the max amount of HS and Upshot you can use the more damage you do.

[WhifOfDespair]

Sigh ... I remember the good old days when Hunters had three viable roles. We could run the solo-minded kiting line with it's mid-tier damage, blow holes in giants with max-damage red line, and provide viable CC in the ol' trapper of foes line. Each with interesting strengths and weaknesses.

I never understood why they got rid of most of our CC. It gave us a nifty, creative and different way to play the class and an actual secondary role in groups.

But that's long gone and with no longer the ability to burn down big bosses fast enough, we are stuck with just solo'ing all the time.

I have been playing my Hunter main since right after beta -- over 12 years. And over the last few years, I pretty much have completely gone solo with him. The only groups I've joined in recent years have been to help lower level guys out.

All I hear now is how we Hunters are so nerfed and unwanted for groups that I don't even bother trying to join them - don't want to be embarrassed.

You know what I hate most? Are the nitwits on the forums who tell us to stop complaining and to play another class! So, we invested _years_ into a toon, who for many of those years was perfectly viable in groups as well as solo, and you are telling us we should roll another toon and spend years bring that one up to max? By the time that happens -- unless you use AoV it can take years for the average player to reach Lvl 100, let alone max -- future class rebalancing could have made _that_ new toon irrelevant!

I do enjoy playing my burg, warden, minstrel & champ alts. But they are years away from reaching end game. I only have so many hours in a week to play! So even though they (at least the warden & minstrel) are popular in groups, they are still mostly playing zones with fewer players and well, fewer groups. So even on THOSE toons I don't get in groups much any more!

[WorrBinpike]

last week i saw the SNG "DD for remorchant (no hunters please)"

That should say all.

But this is the way for MMOs. For a long time the hunter was considered OP due to the bugged barrage, now its RK and warden. 500K, lol.....

[Narunthon]

In Cordovans +cord of the rings live stream today, Cord LITERALLY made fun of end game hunters when someone brought up the current situation. Absolutely rude and dismissive of a genuine problem. This is what we are dealing with

[nu2war]

In Cordovans +cord of the rings live stream today, Cord LITERALLY made fun of end game hunters when someone brought up the current situation. Absolutely rude and dismissive of a genuine problem. This is what we are dealing with

This doesn't surprise me at all. How much money do you think they have made just from long time Hunters who have started other classes and purchased a Valar for it, just to be able to play end game content? Not to mention all the keys they buy to get it geared well. Hunters position will not change until they will make more from fixing them than from letting them remain as they are now.

[Merlinous1]

Cord, dont make fun of hunters (as seen in live stream-he did). A rather large population of the game you are the "Community Manager" of plays hunters and had worked on them for years even. Their hunters arent viable at end game now. Their DPS isnt worth taking in the new Remmorchant raid. FIX the hunters and focus on actual changes this game needs not like when LOTRO released a new race *cough* Stoutaxe *cough*...focus on the things that will help your game and keep it going past the release of the new LOTR MMO. FIX THIS GAME

BTW, I am not a Hunter and I know the class is not viable currently. I main a Lore Master.

[Saphyrra]

Bit of a double post but i threw some ideas in the general discussion: https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...=1#post8000983

Rather than become emotional lets put our pen to paper and get some ideas into Cord.
Its clear that Hunters cant meet most classes for DPS but for me its the stark lack of modern utility - every emergency skill carries heavy animations or is really lethargic (yes i am looking at you poison cleanse) and lack the utility of not having stuff like DNF, quick swap to bubble people with 50k bubbles and back to dps means there really isn't an reason for raids to pick a hunter over an RK (based on this example).

[DKenny]

Bit of a double post but i threw some ideas in the general discussion: https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...=1#post8000983

Rather than become emotional lets put our pen to paper and get some ideas into Cord.
Its clear that Hunters cant meet most classes for DPS but for me its the stark lack of modern utility - every emergency skill carries heavy animations or is really lethargic (yes i am looking at you poison cleanse) and lack the utility of not having stuff like DNF, quick swap to bubble people with 50k bubbles and back to dps means there really isn't an reason for raids to pick a hunter over an RK (based on this example).

With all due respect, I've not seen any evidence that they will use such suggestions. With the last turn of the wheel, hunters were less and less useful over about a 2+ year period. Finally the message got through that the hunter class needed higher dps. While there were may excellent suggestions on the forums as to how to fix it, when we got a "quick fix" with U19, it had been decided that focus skill damage would be boosted much more than induction skill damage. While it did result in higher dps, it also threw off the induction - focus balance of red line and resulted in blue line doing higher damage than red. When the "class balance" revamp came around, blue line was mutilated and changes were made that resulted in yellow line being even more useless than it had been, which was already pretty useless. And now red line dps has fallen behind as well and the hunter class is back to where it was prior to U19, or even worse off. So the message may, eventually, get through that hunters need higher dps. When it comes to how that is accomplished, elaborate suggestions for changes will amount to nothing though. But sincerely, good luck.