T3 Instances - Loot

[1Asy1]

As the title says, i've seen literally nothing over the course of about 8-10 runs now.

From what i have seen its mainly jewellery, appreciate that's all that is currently in the loot table, but armour would be nice.

Once kin members have acquired "Led the charge in XXXX" i really don't see the point in re-running just for sake of group content.

SSG you've done the hard part, created 3 decent 6 mans, but forgot to give us a reason to run them!

Lob

[Demosthenes11]

Frankly, i disagree.

So far i've seen a handful of pretty purple armor and jewellery with essence slots, that are a decent upgrade of the 3-mans loot. In fact, everything dropping is an obvious upgrade to previous gear.
I've also hardly played the content, so drop rate seems fine too.
Some kinnies have got their hands on teal pockets and necklaces, the best around. New, better teals can also be exchanged for embers.
All in all, if you want to min max, you can literally change every single piece for the better.

I like the idea of loot escalation through updates to be honest and it seems there's plenty of new stuff available to motivate players. I'm expecting another gear update when T5 is released. So i see no reason to worry. Plus i'm kind of scared of the possibility of OP loot which, if offered right now, would ruin the raid.

Only thing i'm missing is named, gold, unique items of SoA with 0.1% drop chance for the hardcore population. Hopeless romantics .

[1Asy1]

Frankly, i disagree.

So far i've seen a handful of pretty purple armor and jewellery with essence slots, that are a decent upgrade of the 3-mans loot. In fact, everything dropping is an obvious upgrade to previous gear.
I've also hardly played the content, so drop rate seems fine too.
Some kinnies have got their hands on teal pockets and necklaces, the best around. New, better teals can also be exchanged for embers.
All in all, if you want to min max, you can literally change every single piece for the better.

I like the idea of loot escalation through updates to be honest and it seems there's plenty of new stuff available to motivate players. I'm expecting another gear update when T5 is released. So i see no reason to worry. Plus i'm kind of scared of the possibility of OP loot which, if offered right now, would ruin the raid.

Only thing i'm missing is named, gold, unique items of SoA with 0.1% drop chance for the hardcore population. Hopeless romantics .

I agree the jewellery is better and I mentioned that in the original post, you must be having better look than us though as I’ve seen 1-2 pieces.

With regard to the rest it’s average at best and superseded by loot box/ember armour.

The balance isn’t right - gloves, chest and shoulders should of been introduced imo to complete the set (excluding teal crafted helm).

I’m not looking for OP loot either - just more loot than a crafting item and a average purple item per run. I would equally like to see the return of gold class items.

Pretty sure I’m not alone in this as I’ve heard a number of complaints from other players from within kin and outside.

Lob

[Chris91]

We had our fair share of teal pockets and necklaces..haven't seen a single bracelet or chest yet, those seem to exist only in the item index. Has anyone seen one drop yet?

Only thing i'm missing is named, gold, unique items of SoA with 0.1% drop chance for the hardcore population. Hopeless romantics .

NO, god no

You run the instance dozens of times, nothing drops and then the random who caused 5 wipes because they are ignoring every mechanic immediately gets it. That's beyond frustrating

We call it the noob bonus, because the worst players always get lucky with gold items

[Demosthenes11]

We had our fair share of teal pockets and necklaces..haven't seen a single bracelet or chest yet, those seem to exist only in the item index. Has anyone seen one drop yet?



NO, god no

You run the instance dozens of times, nothing drops and then the random who caused 5 wipes because they are ignoring every mechanic immediately gets it. That's beyond frustrating

We call it the noob bonus, because the worst players always get lucky with gold items

It's a smart, low cost way to attract hardcore players and for my taste it adds some welcome flavor.The noob bonus argument is only partly true. Most players having that kind of loot are players who've spent countless hours farming it. For a determined min maxer, acquiring the best loot isn't that big of a deal, since it's basically what drives him to play the game. If that is true, then where exactly does the objection lie? Is it a question of fairness? And if yes, what's fair?

Anyway, this is hardly a meaningful discussion. I doubt we'll ever get such items, and to be honest i don't think they're that important. I was expressing a wish, not a demand.

1)I agree the jewellery is better and I mentioned that in the original post, you must be having better look than us though as I’ve seen 1-2 pieces. The balance isn’t right - gloves, chest and shoulders should of been introduced imo to complete the set (excluding teal crafted helm).
2) With regard to the rest it’s average at best and superseded by loot box/ember armour.
3) Pretty sure I’m not alone in this as I’ve heard a number of complaints from other players from within kin and outside.

1) There are purple chests with slot essences far superior to the ones of 3-mans. There are also shoulders with 2 essence slots and teal pocket and necklace. These i've seen.

2) I agree here. Ember gear shouldn't be better.

3) Is that a point? :P

[Chris91]

It's a smart, low cost way to attract hardcore players and for my taste it adds some welcome flavor.The noob bonus argument is only partly true. Most players having that kind of loot are players who've spent countless hours farming it. For a determined min maxer, acquiring the best loot isn't that big of a deal, since it's basically what drives him to play the game. If that is true, then where exactly does the objection lie? Is it a question of fairness? And if yes, what's fair?

Anyway, this is hardly a meaningful discussion. I doubt we'll ever get such items, and to be honest i don't think they're that important. I was expressing a wish, not a demand.

I'd rather see items gated behind more difficult content, higher tiers, more wipes in progression and so on than a lower drop chance. I absolutely despise luck as a mechanism because the undeserving are always the luckiest

I'd rather see T10 with a 100% drop chance and I don't care if the Witchking hits for 1 million rather than a 0,1% drop chance

[Demosthenes11]

I'd rather see items gated behind more difficult content, higher tiers, more wipes in progression and so on than a lower drop chance. I absolutely despise luck as a mechanism because the undeserving are always the luckiest

I'd rather see T10 with a 100% drop chance and I don't care if the Witchking hits for 1 million rather than a 0,1% drop chance

Luck is fine and it is always a mechanism...Concerning the undeserving, i really don't mind if a bad player scores an insanely rare, good item that one time he decided to try content that he typically can't manage and was lucky enough to be invited to a group that carried him, if that's what you despise.

Now it is true that unique gold loot was once barred behind very high difficulty content. So i agree these two premises should be viewed as interdependent.

[1Asy1]

It's a smart, low cost way to attract hardcore players and for my taste it adds some welcome flavor.The noob bonus argument is only partly true. Most players having that kind of loot are players who've spent countless hours farming it. For a determined min maxer, acquiring the best loot isn't that big of a deal, since it's basically what drives him to play the game. If that is true, then where exactly does the objection lie? Is it a question of fairness? And if yes, what's fair?

Anyway, this is hardly a meaningful discussion. I doubt we'll ever get such items, and to be honest i don't think they're that important. I was expressing a wish, not a demand.



1) There are purple chests with slot essences far superior to the ones of 3-mans. There are also shoulders with 2 essence slots and teal pocket and necklace. These i've seen.

2) I agree here. Ember gear shouldn't be better.

3) Is that a point? :P

1) I haven’t seen either of these items, hopefully I’ll see them at some point.

2) Which is what most people are using now (again).

3) I guess it is, people play for different reasons... but if you’ve got a looted orientated group with multiple alts, loot becomes a big motivator.

[Osglinthor]

Well tbh loot/loot system is prety underwhelming overall.Would rly like too see more unique pieces with class specific bonuses even random usless sht like reflect on braclets is more pleasent to look at than plain stats but it is what it is.From roughly 20 t3 6 man saw only 1 teal bracelet and some usefull purple loot mostly shoulders/gloves.Would prefer more locks/removal of favored system but that is topic for another thread.There is almost no freedom in running content atm,after weekend almost immpossible to fill/pug groups.Not to mention soon to come sht wich makes this probably only game in history of mmorpgs where you cant max out toon if its only toon you play.But enough with off topics.Should rly add more diverse loot,also saw 0 good tanking pieces from 6 man.

[Kander]

Well tbh loot/loot system is prety underwhelming overall.Would rly like too see more unique pieces with class specific bonuses even random usless sht like reflect on braclets is more pleasent to look at than plain stats but it is what it is.From roughly 20 t3 6 man saw only 1 teal bracelet and some usefull purple loot mostly shoulders/gloves.Would prefer more locks/removal of favored system but that is topic for another thread.There is almost no freedom in running content atm,after weekend almost immpossible to fill/pug groups.Not to mention soon to come sht wich makes this probably only game in history of mmorpgs where you cant max out toon if its only toon you play.But enough with off topics.Should rly add more diverse loot,also saw 0 good tanking pieces from 6 man.

Despite being off-topic issues, you really hit the nail with them. Basically weekly locks exist to limit ember farm, and makes the game truly annoying if you are looking for a specific armour piece, and makes it worse if you want to do a decent loot table.

Now to the main post:

Instance gear (whatever drop you get from it) in t3+ should be better than the equivalent you acquire from ember boxes, it's ridiculous that nearly 75% of all BiS gear are from ember boxes. Extremely pay to win. Also I think it would be best if you got an instance gear box rather than an actual random piece, maybe something like what Osgiliath drops were? I am terribly used already to hunters/burglars getting gear with block in it. I hope they fix it in the raid loot.

I disagree with the post though, I think it's still worth it running the 6 man after getting deeds/titles, but maybe loot tables should be a bit wider in what items they give. Seems like there's barely 5 pieces that drop again and again.

And really, consider removing the featured or at least increase it to 1-2 PER DAY, instead of per week, basically if you focus in instances it's impossible to reach monday without at least 2 characters locked in all instances. (common loot is nearly the same as locked, since featured loot is the base loot now, I've seen 1 single purple item drop in a common t5 in over 10 runs, that's also unacceptable).

[1Asy1]

Despite being off-topic issues, you really hit the nail with them. Basically weekly locks exist to limit ember farm, and makes the game truly annoying if you are looking for a specific armour piece, and makes it worse if you want to do a decent loot table.

Now to the main post:

Instance gear (whatever drop you get from it) in t3+ should be better than the equivalent you acquire from ember boxes, it's ridiculous that nearly 75% of all BiS gear are from ember boxes. Extremely pay to win. Also I think it would be best if you got an instance gear box rather than an actual random piece, maybe something like what Osgiliath drops were? I am terribly used already to hunters/burglars getting gear with block in it. I hope they fix it in the raid loot.

I disagree with the post though, I think it's still worth it running the 6 man after getting deeds/titles, but maybe loot tables should be a bit wider in what items they give. Seems like there's barely 5 pieces that drop again and again.

And really, consider removing the featured or at least increase it to 1-2 PER DAY, instead of per week, basically if you focus in instances it's impossible to reach monday without at least 2 characters locked in all instances. (common loot is nearly the same as locked, since featured loot is the base loot now, I've seen 1 single purple item drop in a common t5 in over 10 runs, that's also unacceptable).

Don’t get me wrong, I want to run the instances but the effort vs. Reward needs more balance. I did 3 more T3s last night, not a single teal. All of the purple items were average.

Lots of good suggestions above but it never seems to get implemented.

[Ethrildar]

Armour piece drop-rates are very low in the six-mans, yet to see a chest piece.

NO, god no

You run the instance dozens of times, nothing drops and then the random who caused 5 wipes because they are ignoring every mechanic immediately gets it. That's beyond frustrating

I am in agreement with you here, extremely low drop-rate RNG BiS pieces are a horrible "mechanic". Give capable and competent players a way to earn these rewards.

It's a smart, low cost way to attract hardcore players and for my taste it adds some welcome flavor.

2) I agree here. Ember gear shouldn't be better.

It doesn't attract anyone, because we're limited to two runs of any given instance per week per character, all it does is serve to annoy most of the population that diligently complete these runs on their "hardest" tiers week in, week out, and never acquire the final piece their build needs, particularly if it is - like the old gold class items - a piece that makes your class WAY more powerful than one without the item (Revered Warden's earring, Champ Boots, looking at you...).

Additionally, Embers gear really isn't "better" in most cases than the six-man gear, it's only better for armour pieces than the three man gear, the jewels are still way subpar for most classes and do not compete the with ilvl 416/417 pieces you can get. Embers gear is viable now, and is BiS in a couple of slots, but this will change with Tier 5s I'd imagine. I'm not bothered with Embers being a viable way to acquire a couple of pieces of gear for a build, and instance loot the rest.

it's ridiculous that nearly 75% of all BiS gear are from ember boxes.

Seems like there's barely 5 pieces that drop again and again.

And really, consider removing the featured or at least increase it to 1-2 PER DAY, instead of per week, basically if you focus in instances it's impossible to reach monday without at least 2 characters locked in all instances. (common loot is nearly the same as locked, since featured loot is the base loot now, I've seen 1 single purple item drop in a common t5 in over 10 runs, that's also unacceptable).

Embers gear is in no way, shape, or form, BiS for 75% of slots lol. That's absolutely ridiculous, as someone who has a few characters very well geared, I can almost entirely ignore the "jewel" Ember boxes, 90% of the "gear" Ember boxes, and the off-hands/shields are entirely wasted. I hate SSG clawing money at every turn, but this seems like a fine implementation for me. Get some BiS gear with Embers (that I earn from doing the 3-6mans), and some as drops. Seems fine.

Don’t get me wrong, I want to run the instances but the effort vs. Reward needs more balance. I did 3 more T3s last night, not a single teal. All of the purple items were average.

As with the 3mans, likely that teals will come with Tier 5. What's the requirement for teal gear? As long as it's better than what you've got, who cares what rarity it is?

[Kander]

Embers gear is in no way, shape, or form, BiS for 75% of slots lol. That's absolutely ridiculous, as someone who has a few characters very well geared, I can almost entirely ignore the "jewel" Ember boxes, 90% of the "gear" Ember boxes, and the off-hands/shields are entirely wasted. I hate SSG clawing money at every turn, but this seems like a fine implementation for me. Get some BiS gear with Embers (that I earn from doing the 3-6mans), and some as drops. Seems fine.

For medium armour dps classes: Bracelets, rings, earrings, shoulders, gloves, chest piece, all of them are BiS from ember boxes. 9/13 pieces.
For light armour dps classes: rings, earrings, shoulders, gloves, cap, chest. 8/14 pieces.

I wasn't considering the offhand nor necklace or head piece since they are crafted anyways and those are not an alternative from either ember box nor instances drops. Although necklace there could be a debate of it being better from instances due to extra slot, the same debate can be done of ember box helm, so I decided to count neither of them as the total stat you get is nearly the same and all are useful stats in those pieces.

Oh and btw, I think SSG should consider swapping the tactical mastery in healing gear for critical rating, or just outgoing healing. There's just too many pieces with tactical mastery + outgoing healing in them, making them nearly useless.

[LotroVidz]

For the effort you need to put into T3 the loot is totally garbage. SSG wants you to buy keys and get ember gear.

[Demosthenes11]

Sorry to be the fun guy at the party, but it sounds like most of what's being discussed here is ideas on how the game should move on aside of the real world.

OP asked for better loot so that players are motivated to run the instances. Let's ignore the fact that instances are already being run regularly, which means the majority of raiders, who were active in the previous cluster, are still around, hence motivated. Let's also ignore the fact there are objections concerning drop chance of loot, which can only be harvested twice per week per char, less than two weeks past release, as if there's enough data to draw conclusions. Now supposing good loot is the ratio of reward versus effort needed to acquire it that the average player deems enough to visit the content, what reasons will there be left for the average player to keep going if such loot is introduced atop of increased drop chance and! lock removal? If getting good loot fast is the only concern here, let's not pretend anyone gives a damn about balanced, quality game-play.

Improving the game cannot depend solely on personal preferences. Any chronically developed product cannot improve sans pursuit of sustained income. Selfish interests (e.g. ''i want more loot for my effort'') are rational as long as they fathom the company's obvious need for economic profit. So anything making the game better must ensure players' continuous investment of resources regardless of its subjective reasons. It is in the best interest of everyone interested in making or playing it.

Lastly, in a non deterministic loot mechanism, such as the one in place, there is always the classic possibility of a player being rewarded loot despite of the amount of effort he/she put into it. Everyone involved has the exactly same chance to grab something in each, isolated, successful run. One ticket is enough to win the lottery. If that's unfair to the rest of the buyers who spent a fortune on tickets that lost the drawing, the problem lies in the involvement of possibility itself, not some vague idea of fairness that categorizes player skill based on luck.

Back to the real world, personally i have run the new stuff very few times. Items inside embers boxes are -with a couple of exceptions- worse than the ones found inside boss chests. Then again, if we agree that those two sets of items should in no way compete, what we're fundamentally objecting to is the ability to upgrade character potential by spending cash, rather than playing the content. This is a good argument, since it's also connected to the question of improvement above. Though irrelevant with the effort and reward balance issue, because the most efficient way -for anyone not willing to pay- to farm embers is actually playing the content. Moreover, in the runs i participated there hasn't been a single chest opening, in which at least one out of six fellows did not get something obviously better against what was slotted, which in turn was the most of what players could have obtained from the previous instances. Here we are, with progressively better, harder content, that offers progressively better gear, with the exact same drop chance, expecting even better instances with better gear leading up to a raid in several months. What is, if any, the objective reason to complain?

[Arandour]

I kinda dont agree,from what i see so far they try to keep some "balance".Some very good items drops from T3 6 man instances and also many of them are the top right now with out questioning like pocket,necklace and also some very nice purple armor items.
If you need different stats from some of those that you get in there you can buy with embers those new teal ones and also you can craft some items so can complete your gear.At T5 the 3 man instances still have some teal items that you cannot find so good anywhere else like boots and legs.We have some kind of variety right now and i think its a good think.You can also gear up alts with items you dont need for your main and buy some teal ones for them when you reach the embers cap.
I think a bit later they will introduce T4 and T5 for those instances and probably put some new teal pieces armor inside so i dont think that will be good idea to put everything in from now.If they dont upgrade the instances to biggest tiers then yes i agree they should put teal armor and more teal jewel's now,Like those teals that can barter with embers but bigger ofc.They could do it right now tho put a bit bigger than those barter teals and later put upgraded versions when the instances become harder but they should get also some money from keys ofc :P

[1Asy1]

Well I’m gonna have to frankly disagree with the above comments.

Having run the instances back to back for the last 1-2 weeks, the loot is garbage.

It’s a standing joke amongst the players from 3-4 different kins that I’ve run the instances with, so much so numbers have already stopped playing and have left for other games.

Hopefully T5 will reignite interest.

Fully appreciate you’re all entitled to your own opinion, but it’s not good and could of been way better given the actual instances are decently designed.

[LotroVidz]

Well I’m gonna have to frankly disagree with the above comments.

Having run the instances back to back for the last 1-2 weeks, the loot is garbage.

It’s a standing joke amongst the players from 3-4 different kins that I’ve run the instances with, so much so numbers have already stopped playing and have left for other games.

Hopefully T5 will reignite interest.

Fully appreciate you’re all entitled to your own opinion, but it’s not good and could of been way better given the actual instances are decently designed.

T5 will be so much slower and tedious, literally none likes T5 that i talk to. Also the scions are just there to make it even slower, buffing morale by 250% and lowers incoming damage to 30%.. Isn't T5 slow enough?

[onisura]

T5 will be so much slower and tedious, literally none likes T5 that i talk to. Also the scions are just there to make it even slower, buffing morale by 250% and lowers incoming damage to 30%.. Isn't T5 slow enough?

I personally ( and i think most players) don't mind playing 2-3 hours for a decent loot . Instead what we have now is playing with couple toons every week for random purple drops and some rare teal ones that in most cases are garbage aswell .
Overall instances have really decent fights and designs but item wise running 30 times to get a teal pocket that's worst than Thrang one , big yikes...

[Zariliv92]

if i have to guess i'd say every third or max fourth run i see a blue necklace or pocket dropping (multiple drops possible)... i think the droprate is ok

i'm more concerned about the droprate of purple chest (black lore) and gloves (nazguls) tbh^^

[Demosthenes11]

Well I’m gonna have to frankly disagree with the above comments.

Having run the instances back to back for the last 1-2 weeks, the loot is garbage.

It’s a standing joke amongst the players from 3-4 different kins that I’ve run the instances with, so much so numbers have already stopped playing and have left for other games.

Hopefully T5 will reignite interest.

Fully appreciate you’re all entitled to your own opinion, but it’s not good and could of been way better given the actual instances are decently designed.

Back to back for 1-2 weeks makes up for 4-8 runs of each dungeon(?), depending on how many capped, geared alts you got. You probably have your hands on at least one or a couple of teals and a handful of purples with slot essences. Why is that not enough? Available items are noticeably improving stats while not increasing them out of proportion and drop chance is decent. Better stats would mean a character can cap everything and increased drop chance would mean the instances don't require farm to provide the gear.

People who left because of garbage loot would have probably left 1 month -or less- in the update after dressing 12 chars with whatever fugazi might have had lured them in to begin with. I don't see the difference.

I also support everyone's right to an opinion, albeit yours comes across as an ungrounded plea for fast, good loot, because apparently that's what you want. This is understandable, but nothing else.

I personally ( and i think most players) don't mind playing 2-3 hours for a decent loot . Instead what we have now is playing with couple toons every week for random purple drops and some rare teal ones that in most cases are garbage aswell .
Overall instances have really decent fights and designs but item wise running 30 times to get a teal pocket that's worst than Thrang one , big yikes...

Can you describe garbage? Do you want better stats? Drop certainty? Different coloring? Lock removal? Or some funky naming?

[Emaldiom]

With a good group and no wipes, no afk etc the amount of time needed for each of these instances is roughly this:

Lamentation: - 1 hour - 1,5 hour
Black-lore: - ~40 min
Kings: 10 min

Now this is only after the whole group know every single tactic and have done it a few times. If there is 2-3 wipes on bosses the time requirement is drastically improved.

There should always be loot that is hard to get and has low drop chance. These items are then the main reason to run them, but they also need to be way better than the items you can get from other places.
Right now the teal items (Pocket and Necklace) gives you 2 essence slot but at the cost of way less vitality (compared to crafted) and even a nerf to crit\mastery\ogh\finesse etc

If these items had increased stats overall + 2 essences then it would be good, but right now the difference is only marginal (For me as a min\maxer i still want them)

The amount of time it takes to get these items compared to what upgrade you get is very very low.

1 Lamentation run can quickly take more time than 1 Anvil run did at farm. Anvil dropped raid armour + best in slot items for all classes on all bosses.
Loot cannot be compared but the runs still takes the same time.

[Ethrildar]

Biggest issue really is that every item has the same cookie-cutter set of stats, with the stat-slices adjusted if it has a slot, or two slots, or no slots.

This makes for extremely boring (but easy, mind..) gearing, and tiny improvements in gear when a piece does drop from the next released instance set, i.e. 3mans to 6mans. I am sure the new teal items with Tier 5 (assuming there are teals) and purple items with 2 more item levels will increase my gear by a further 5% effectiveness in total. Which is nice, but as mentioned by other people, the RNG nature of drops leaves me waiting for a teal necklace/pocket to drop whilst repeatedly receiving the same (literally junk) tanking ring with block and fate on it.

Itemization in this game has taken a nose-dive into laziness. I'd prefer no-stat 3slot gear & jewels so I can just get the stats I want, at this point tbh.

[onisura]

Can you describe garbage? Do you want better stats? Drop certainty? Different coloring? Lock removal? Or some funky naming?

By garbage i mean that all tank pockets are worst than Thrang ones, most Will pockets are still worst than Thikil golden ones with 400+item lvl and most necklaces are almost same with crafted ones having double stats.
The only decent loot i got past weeks was one necklace with tact mit and resistance and a few purple armor drops that have no impact on tanking anyway because you can tank still on anvil gear...
Ofc i want better stats especially on T5s that are coming.Ofc i want better chances and rewarding loot.Idc about colouring but i would like golden class items if the chances to get one is the same like now. Lock removal would be nice because after Friday all my alts are locked.Idk about names as long itemization is on point because right now its more like farm instances for embers and buy half your armor and jewels from Npc which is understandable ,they have to sell keys.

[1Asy1]

Updated.