Threat Guide for Captains

[Armitas]

There has been some discussion on whether we have the threat to fulfill our roles as tank and I realized that we don't really have a good guide on how to maintain threat as a captain. This isn't to disagree with any claims for aggro buffs, but simply to pool our knowledge into a guide because captain threat isn't obvious and some have given up the role out of frustration. I'll get it started and if you have any suggestions/corrections leave it below and I'll add/correct above. I have missed out on several iterations of changes so something may have been changed without my knowledge.

Aggro.
When a captain switches to yellow spec he gets 4x(This may have secretly been adjusted to ~8x) his damage as threat, as well as additional threat from healing (2x?). Unlike other games you have played, or other lotro classes, you are going to need to juggle damage and healing to generate natural threat.

Damage threat.
Because your natural threat building comes from damage you will need to put startlit crystals in your 1h tanking sword. It can help to put the rune of striking relic in it, as well as the man sword bonus. Neither are major buffs to threat but they all help so long as they increase the damage you do.

Healing threat.
While damage threat is pretty obvious healing is easily overlooked. We have a megaton of incoming healing through buffs. I have seen my inc hit 89% and that isn't fully legged out. In general you will always have an additional +25% healing because "turning point" also triggers from partial BPE which happens a lot. We are also sharing our tank legendaries with our healing legendaries. So self healing is strong, despite not being a healer, and there are two very important heals to have that you might have overlooked. These two are gallant display which does damage as well as group healing, and Courageous convocation (muster courage heal). It seems to be the case that heal threat is greater when the person being healed is a mobs target. So these things are really strong when you are the cause of the heal AND the mobs target. The final main heal aggro is revealing mark. It's really wonky how this skill works, but by some mysterious means it generates aggro just by casting it. So if you open with revealing mark all the mobs will target you, on the way toward the mob cast battleshout which does damage aggro and pushes out a huge heal from revealing mark. You can also use muster courage but AFAIK you only get threat once for healing at max morale. The CRUCIAL thing is that you get all of them targeting you right at the start, because then your self healing will generate threat in addition to your damage. (you can switch to noble mark once you stabilize)

Threat copy.
A threat copy copies the aggro of the highest person on the mob aggro table that is not the tank and multiplies that threat. So if an RK just concluded a mob and pulled aggro casting this skill would acquire his amount of threat with a multiplier added to it. Threatening shout is your main threat copy. Grave wound will do this as well, but threatening shout is the only skill you have that can correct lost aggro at range. If one mob runs off of you this is all you have to get him back without dragging all your mobs toward friendlies. If those mobs have AOE it can be really bad. The "echo range" is not very far, so typically even if your healer has something on him at mid range casting it on the mobs on you will cause it to miss the mob that has pulled off of you. Knowing when and how to use it is the hardest part of tanking IMO. You need to know your group and what they are doing while you approach the mobs. Waiting till the mob pulls off can cause you to miss the opportunity to reach all the mobs with it. If a mob leaves for the healer and you cast it on that mob, missing those in melee range, you might lose one of close mobs to a dps compounding your problems. You need to kind of get a feel for when your group will have generated sufficient aggro to copy and cast it before the mob leaves you. For me it seems like about 4-5 seconds, or just enough for me to reach melee range and use 2 skills. Hitting it when you lost threat will maximize what the skill does but it can be problematic if you wait to that point and get stunned, slowed, or stuck in an animation delaying the cast allowing the mob to get too far from the herd. IMO it's safer to hit before you lose aggro, but long enough to build sufficient threat from your parties aggro.

Blade of Elendil.
IMO Blade of Elendil is an additional taunt that is a good idea to carry along, but not a good one to put in rotation as it kills your mitigation when you cast it. Sometimes a mob will come lose, threatening shout is down, grave wound is on CD and this is all you got. That is when you will be glad to have it.

MISC

• Have the highest burst DPS on target assist and focus your attacks on that same target.
• If you suspect you might lose aggro to a dps on a pull put Words of courage on him before the start, you can even use a weak RC. According to what I have read, switching between the target of aggro isn't immediate, giving you a grace period and reducing pingponging.
• Use Blade of Elendil over Grave wound when available because grave wound is immediate whereas BoE requires prerequisites. (laubgaenger)
• Can also use banner for the initial pull instead of Revealing mark. (laubgaenger)
• Consider using "Routing Cry" legacy as your last spot for your weapon. Our only natural damage threat for non single target is from routing cry and pressing attack. This is particularly important when you have a strong AOE class like Fire RK when most of your skills are single target with a long CD aoe threat.
• Don't forget to put on finesse. Outside of raid armor, I have only found it on pants, so use relics and essences until you can get it from gear. Shoot for 100k, 120k if you can spare it.

[Hephburz-2]

Blade of Elendil.
IMO Blade of Elendil is a good skill to carry, but not a good one to put in rotation as it kills your mitigation when you cast it. Sometimes a mob will come lose, threatening shout is down, grave wound is on CD and this is all you got. That is when you will be glad to have it. This skill will only force the mob to fight you for a brief duration, it won't do any additional threat generation.

This is not true, Blade of Elendil threat copy was fixed with Minas Morgul released, it now works like all other Captain Taunts.

[Mukor]

+300% threat generation makes ×4 by the way but it doesn't matter 0×x =0.
Captains would need a factor of ten do generate the same threat as an average dps.
They've the smallest dps of all tanks and no passive.

[Armitas]

This is not true, Blade of Elendil threat copy was fixed with Minas Morgul released, it now works like all other Captain Taunts.

Good to hear, thanks.

[Armitas]

+300% threat generation makes ×4 by the way but it doesn't matter 0×x =0.
Captains would need a factor of ten do generate the same threat as an average dps.
They've the smallest dps of all tanks and no passive.

Something I have been worried about is this stat inflation. We need damage for threat, but the only passive damage we are getting is coming from might. Might is really weak now in comparison to the inflated Physical Mastery essences and those essences are value adjusted with each stat inflation while might is the same small ratio it's always been. Some tank pieces have high Might(5K), but low vitality, and we are really needing that vitality. So we aren't getting a lot of might in the first place, while damage is more and more being derived exclusively through Physical Mastery. So each update dps leads higher and higher over threat. One fix might be to give an increased ratio on might regarding Physical mastery when in tank spec since that seems to be where it's falling behind.

[Laubgaenger]

+300% threat generation makes ×4 by the way but it doesn't matter 0×x =0.
Captains would need a factor of ten do generate the same threat as an average dps.
They've the smallest dps of all tanks and no passive.

I read that he wrote x3 not +300% so in Summ its 300%.

But have Captains in Endgame atm (Level 130) Problems with keeping the Aggro on Singletargets?
(Forcetaunts of other Classes excluded)

Damage threat.
Because your natural threat building comes from damage you will need to put startlit crystals in your 1h tanking sword. It can help to put the rune of striking relic in it, as well as the man sword bonus. Neither are major buffs to threat but they all help so long as they increase the damage you do. Unless changed, using a halberd at the start will also generate extra threat.

Can not share that with you.

From my point the Captains Melee Damage by the Sword does not Matter much. Some is nice if you have to tank more Targets.
All Captains have the Option of Sword Bonus, as the HE have that too.
The Passive Bonus of Thread Generation of the Halberds was changed some years ago. Halberds get an Increased Crit chance of Autoattacks.


Anor:
Tanked @65 and @75 Thrang feastinstances with the same Level 60 Sword.
I had shortly the Problem @75 to see if the buff was on or off. At @60 it was hard to see the damage difference.
Switched to Level 75 weapon, not for Damage, but to use better relicts on it.

Blade of Elendil.
IMO Blade of Elendil is a good skill to carry, but not a good one to put in rotation as it kills your mitigation when you cast it. Sometimes a mob will come lose, threatening shout is down, grave wound is on CD and this is all you got. That is when you will be glad to have it. This skill will only force the mob to fight you for a brief duration, it won't do any additional threat generation.

Hephburz-2 corrected it already.

But as in Damage Rota you can use BoE short before you can reapply the buff of DB/PA again.
For me is it great to get a 3rd Taunt by using that skill.
I use the Skills in the other order, as Grave Wound and Threating Shout are the both skills i can use without special requirements.
Often i use BoE and GW to keep aggro and use TS in core to get something to me - from reach.

The Problem, we have is that much works with feeling, when to press what.
Here the best is to know who does much damage at the start and who is starting fastest.
The initial healing on damagedealer with WoC you mention unter misc. with the Low version of RC you get also a small Hot on the Fellowship too.

See many Tanks that start wíth Threadcopy skills on Targets that they hit first.

MISC

I would add the Option for the first Pull to use the banner as initial Hit to a group if enemies.


Thanks for starting the summing up the Informations.
I still think that the Captains area is the best knowlegefilled area in that forum. Maybe it get a bit sleepy, but we can awake it again :-)

[Mukor]

Bit we get +300% threatgeneration in tankspec this makes 400% so 4×dpa.

[Omen_Kaizer]

https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...-threat-system

I havent tested the claims in this thread that we're getting ~8x threat multiplier to damage with MM. True about BoE copying though

[Armitas]

https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...-threat-system

I havent tested the claims in this thread that we're getting ~8x threat multiplier to damage with MM. True about BoE copying though

That makes sense. IIRC I do like 5-10k dps in yellow, which, at 4x, would put that at 40k aggro equivalence which should result in disaster; which I'm not seeing. At 8x it's 80k which explains why I'm keeping up with average dpsers while holding back taunts.

[Xerxes2007]

Sorry for the mini necro but question as I'm getting my capt ready for tanking duty and working LI's.. If you generate 4/8x threat through dps, and only 2x through healing, what about Pressing Attack legacy? Would that be good for tanking?

[Laubgaenger]

Sorry for the mini necro but question as I'm getting my capt ready for tanking duty and working LI's.. If you generate 4/8x threat through dps, and only 2x through healing, what about Pressing Attack legacy? Would that be good for tanking?

I use it, but if you imbrue your weapon, that Legacy becomes Battle-hardened Outgoing Healing Buff.
You can Switch Weapons for that skill, but i do not do that.
On Anor, we are at Level 85, i use it - as we have no option to imbrue.
On Belegaer (Common Server) i use an Imbrued Sword.
As the Imbrue Weapons come, the PA Skill changed, it has formerly only 2 Targets, now each Captain could hit 5 (+).

With Imbrue some Legacies change:

Battle States and Defeat Response Duration
becomes
Battle-hardened Incoming Damage (Debuff)

A very strong buff, you do not want to miss that.

Standard of Valour has no maxtarget, so i suggest it as an option to start a fight with it.

Have a look, where you have to tank more as 5 Targets. And does it matter if you have not all of them in that fight.

[Xerxes2007]

I use it, but if you imbrue your weapon, that Legacy becomes Battle-hardened Outgoing Healing Buff.
You can Switch Weapons for that skill, but i do not do that.
On Anor, we are at Level 85, i use it - as we have no option to imbrue.
On Belegaer (Common Server) i use an Imbrued Sword.
As the Imbrue Weapons come, the PA Skill changed, it has formerly only 2 Targets, now each Captain could hit 5 (+).

With Imbrue some Legacies change:

Battle States and Defeat Response Duration
becomes
Battle-hardened Incoming Damage (Debuff)

A very strong buff, you do not want to miss that.

Standard of Valour has no maxtarget, so i suggest it as an option to start a fight with it.

Have a look, where you have to tank more as 5 Targets. And does it matter if you have not all of them in that fight.

Sorry, I meant Pressing Attack and Devastating Blow Critical Rating

And what do you guys think of the new noble mark?

[ydoc]

Sorry, I meant Pressing Attack and Devastating Blow Critical Rating

And what do you guys think of the new noble mark?

It maxes out at +9000~, which is currently nothing at 130, considering we need over 300k(?) if I recall correctly.

New Noble mark? We've had the current one for atleast 3(?) years now so I'm unaware of what you mean by this

[Armitas]

New Noble mark? We've had the current one for atleast 3(?) years now so I'm unaware of what you mean by this

It got nerfed to 3% at 3seconds today because of it's interaction with attack speed. But get this, they currently plan to release a set with -25% LS cooldown, which gives you a LS in less than a minute when all factors are considered. Makes no sense to destroy this because it healed too much then put out something so utter overpowered. The new mark only triggers through skill attacks which at minimum can occur at 3s, but can also occur at the 4 second mark or later due to the timing of your skills. Further, it's a yellow mark, and due to the fact you want to stay in battle hardened you will be withholding many of your attack skills, likely leaving you with having to spam Sure strike at exact intervals. Sounds fun right? They made this mark utterly useless for any and all circumstances compared to revealing mark. We tried to tell them in beta but they didn't listen.

[Armitas]

Sorry, I meant Pressing Attack and Devastating Blow Critical Rating

Given that your tank set will also be doubling as your healing set it's a good choice to boost Rallying Cry through Pressing Attack which multiplies the value of that crit chance. You will generally get enough defeat responses in yellow through partial B/P/E but it can help a little in getting a routing cry stun out of an initial pull. Don't get it for the aggro, go with Routing Cry damage for that as it is one of your only two natural AOE threat generators.

[Pavlin]

2h cpt do it better. You cant use shield anyway. (proper one atleast)
And woke up already, your forced taunt DO NOT COPY threat.

[ydoc]

2h cpt do it better. You cant use shield anyway. (proper one atleast)
And woke up already, your forced taunt DO NOT COPY threat.

Lol I agree on the Shield being ###### in comparison but the stats lost from using a 2hander are not worth it. And yes Cappy taunts do copy threat.

[Pavlin]

[*]Have the highest burst DPS on target assist and focus your attacks on that same target.

There why ppl strugle. There why you will never get better or have fluid game.

Dps follow tank target, not opposite.

Tank lead, dps follow, and healer is here to correct mistakes, like to keep everyone alive if sm1 steal agro from tank, till tank get target back on him.

The only way you make dps rat is when you sure what that dps do.
Giving rat to the brain dead person, only because he dish most dps than others is a mistake.

And again. There is no copy threat. There is a forced taunt. Few skills REDIRECT agro in this game and cpt have non of them .

[Gorikon]

And again. There is no copy threat. There is a forced taunt. Few skills REDIRECT agro in this game and cpt have non of them .

Do you even tank?

Hit something with a Force Taunt at the beginning of a fight, and it will run off the moment the FT runs off. Hit something with a FT after DD's did some damage, and it will stick to you MUCH longer. This is because Force taunts check the threat table, take the highest threat that is not yours, multiply it by 8.85, then overwrite your threat with that value (if yours was lower). This mechanism works in the background and has been around since Helm's Deep.

Thread that describes this for Guardians:
https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...kills-generate

Threat copy works for all Force Taunts in the game. Though I think the copy mechanism is only active when you're using your tank skill line.

[Pavlin]

by any reason it not let me edit/add
so there is. the only copy threat skill i lotro i know
https://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/In_...eorning_Trait)
confirmed by ssg

[Gorikon]

by any reason it not let me edit/add
so there is. the only copy threat skill i lotro i know
https://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/In_...eorning_Trait)
confirmed by ssg

Well, the Force Taunt threat copy mechanism isn't described in any tooltip, but works nonetheless. Try for yourself:

1) Pull an undamaged mob with Threatening Shout (or any other Force Taunt that doesn't deal damage). Let a DD do a single attack to the mob. See what happend when the Force Taunt wears off.

2) Do it the other way around. Let the DD unleash one or two big hitters on the mob. Pull it off him with a Force Taunt. See what happens when the FT wears of. Or, what doesn't happen.
2.1) Press F1 so you do nothing. Let the DD continue attacking that mob. See how long it takes until the mob returns to the DD.

[xadoor]

Though I think the copy mechanism is only active when you're using your tank skill line.

Its this^^^^^^^^^^^, I traited a taunte while in redline thinkign I could pull aggro if the tank died, and it worked for exactly 5seconds. The threat copy is definitely there while yellow traited thou.

(I even tested it later in a 3 man just to verify the difference between yellow and red)

[Constrictions]

Damage and healing threat are entirely trivial as a captain tank.

If you're not a DPS-based tank (e.g. Warden, Blue champ) you're either managing aggro from your force taunts or not at all. This has almost unanimously been the case since U6 for every single tank in the game. Anyone who tells you otherwise is kidding themselves.

[Ethrildar]

Damage and healing threat are entirely trivial as a captain tank.

If you're not a DPS-based tank (e.g. Warden, Blue champ) you're either managing aggro from your force taunts or not at all. This has almost unanimously been the case since U6 for every single tank in the game. Anyone who tells you otherwise is kidding themselves.

^

3characterlimit

[ydoc]

Damage and healing threat are entirely trivial as a captain tank.

If you're not a DPS-based tank (e.g. Warden, Blue champ) you're either managing aggro from your force taunts or not at all. This has almost unanimously been the case since U6 for every single tank in the game. Anyone who tells you otherwise is kidding themselves.

I agree with you for the most part, but heal aggro is not entirely trivial, its not enough to keep a dps from pulling off you but when additional adds are introduced into a fight the 30-50k hps I can pull in Yellow is more than enough to keep them from running over to the healers and flooring them, which I say is pretty useful.