Blue Champion Changes

[ydoc]

I think it would be great for champs to have a bit better tanking ability than they do at the moment, as we are always short of tanks and it is always nice for players to be able to jump into more than one role, like captains can do. The only suggestion I disagree with is the heavy shield suggested by one poster above, as I think this should be purely the domain of guardians, like the warden shield is just for wardens.

Suggestion 1: I would rather see the champ stick with no shield, to remain distinctive, and get their defensive benefits from elsewhere, like being able to block/parry/evade more attacks. For me this fits in with a champion being the most skilled class in close combat techniques, defending himself through impressive displays of artful swordplay rather than standing behind a big slab of steel and using brute force (guardian) or inspiring through gallantry and determination (captain).

Suggestion 2: to help with unavoidable boss attacks, there should be a champ skill like “acrobatic dodge” (rubbish name I know) that automatically avoids all attacks for say, five or ten seconds. This would help with the big “belly flop” type attacks, but only if the player times it right.

I'd rather keep the Chank without a shield aswell, but bottom line the stats from the shield or offhand are one of the biggest things going against them right now, and I'd like to not see more poorly scaled stats just thrown onto the tree like they've done with Block, which will 100% need to be scaled up at each Lvl increase to stay relevant. Which is the main reason why I suggested a buckler, since they can be used in tandem with a 2hand.

Maybe something like "Absolute Dodge" or "True Dodge", but personally I don't feel as though its entirely in the spirit of the Champion,I think of unmatched strength and prowess, not quite someone whose quick on their feet or particularly agile, when I think of the word I imagine a fearsome warrior gritting his teeth in triumph as he bears down on another fighter in a sword lock. So perhaps "Full Control" or something else befitting of a fighter that does not back down.

[Int]

MORE? How dare you Oliver.

[HotStuffs]

captain op

no point in other lines till it gets adressed

champion can still tank three and six man instances however. maybe even raid tier one

[Int]

captain op

no point in other lines till it gets adressed

champion can still tank three and six man instances however. maybe even raid tier one

That conclusion assumes that the role of a blue line champion would be the same as a captain, and also assumes there is no other reason to have a viable blue line. It also assumes that champions are waiting to be invited to a raid, rather than forming on one their own. It also only addresses the order at which thing should be done, which doesn't really matter.

[Hephburz-2]

Now that Red & Yellow line have received some "love" in their damage boost, is this potentially the time to look at potentially changing Blue Champion?

[HotStuffs]

Now that Red & Yellow line have received some "love" in their damage boost, is this potentially the time to look at potentially changing Blue Champion?

shouldnt they focus on actual tanking classes first?

[Hephburz-2]

shouldnt they focus on actual tanking classes first?

You can go and ask them to do that in a different thread, my concern is not for the other classes, nor do I care, but keep trying to derail like your above comment.

[Int]

You can go and ask them to do that in a different thread, my concern is not for the other classes, nor do I care, but keep trying to derail like your above comment.

IMHO what they should do is:
1) come up with a clear picture of what the role they want each of the lines for each of the classes (sure, some lines could be 90% versions of another line in another class)
2) communicate these roles to the players
3) revamp all the classes in order to make them match their role and be perfectly scalable
3) tweak the classes so that they are balanced with each other
4) create instances/raids that utilize each role

Personally, I would like blue line to become an off-tank that is capable of DPSing ads, thus solving the problem of ads if used correctly. The 15 second bubble with a 40 second cooldown would make sense in this role. You have 15 seconds to take out the ads, and must DPS the boss slow enough to allow 40 seconds between ads (sounds like a fun game mechanism to me). Also, you could gear for DPS (might and PM), since that would still be your primary role. The bubble would protect you for a limited amount of time needed to DPS the ads (the bubble could be increased greatly since it is already limited by a 15 second time limit and a 40 second CD - they would still not be able to be primary tanks). DPS the ads too slow and you're dead. DPS the boss too quickly and you're dead. This role would match well with the AOE champions can do, and would also match well with their ability to kite (if needed) and still do damage from AOE.

However, if they want to be lazy and create future work for themselves, then I would be somewhat satisfied with blue line if they simply made it a 90% version of another tanking class. It would likely need to be "fixed" every update, but if the goal was to make it 90% as good at tanking as another class, then that should be fairly easy to achieve.

I agree that there is no reason to put off fixing this problem. Yes there are a lot of problems in the game. Class problems is the #1 issue as far as I am concerned. If they want to charge 1000 LOTRO points in order to unlock a blue-line fix, then I will happily pay. If they want to make it a feature that you have to purchase with cash, then I will gladly pay. If they want to make it a part of an ultimate fan bundle, then I would even pay.

[Arandour]

Now that Red & Yellow line have received some "love" in their damage boost, is this potentially the time to look at potentially changing Blue Champion?

Our main role is to dps that means Red and Yellow line.We asked about lot of changes cause we have so many issues for years for our Red and Yellow specs and they gave us only a damage buff.Hunters that had so much attention all this years instead of getting only a row damage buff they got a proper class balance pass AGAIN with lots of fixes and changes.Developers time is very precius for champions that didnt had any attention since 2017 and got now only a row damage buff.When they fix at least our basic isues from our two primary role specs then if they have time they should also check our secondary spec.Dealing at the moment with our secondary role with out fixing first our primary its just waste of time and will change nothing for the majority of champion players.

[Int]

Our main role is to dps that means Red and Yellow line.We asked about lot of changes cause we have so many issues for years for our Red and Yellow specs and they gave us only a damage buff.Hunters that had so much attention all this years instead of getting only a row damage buff they got a proper class balance pass AGAIN with lots of fixes and changes.Developers time is very precius for champions that didnt had any attention since 2017 and got now only a row damage buff.When they fix at least our basic isues from our two primary role specs then if they have time they should also check our secondary spec.Dealing at the moment with our secondary role with out fixing first our primary its just waste of time and will change nothing for the majority of champion players.

Hunters complained and almost immediately got a slew of changes in the last update. That tells me that getting changes has little to do with developer's time issues. Either they just don't want to work on champions, or champions aren't complaining enough.

[Arandour]

Hunters complained and almost immediately got a slew of changes in the last update. That tells me that getting changes has little to do with developer's time issues. Either they just don't want to work on champions, or champions aren't complaining enough.

Maybe they cannot or they dont want to bother cause the issues are very complicated like lower deva crits than simple critical hits for example,give mitigation bypass to red,changes to get rid of weapon swapping and so on.But definitely are not complicated or hard to make percentages the bracing attack,give more heal to fight on,reduce the sprint cd,upscale properly and buff some skills/trait bonuses and so on.So there is no excuse and definitely they could do something.
We were complaining much more and longer than hunters.But cause of the mechanics they were obsolete like we was in Abyss and first Mordors expansion so probably cause they lost most of the content they wanted to give them something back like what they did with us back then.

[Int]

Maybe they cannot or they dont want to bother cause the issues are very complicated like lower deva crits than simple critical hits for example,give mitigation bypass to red,changes to get rid of weapon swapping and so on.But definitely are not complicated or hard to make percentages the bracing attack,give more heal to fight on,reduce the sprint cd,upscale properly and buff some skills/trait bonuses and so on.So there is no excuse and definitely they could do something.
We were complaining much more and longer than hunters.But cause of the mechanics they were obsolete like we was in Abyss and first Mordors expansion so probably cause they lost most of the content they wanted to give them something back like what they did with us back then.

I think you make some good points. It seems to me that the devs love to make anti-melee/pro-ranged mechanisms. It is hard to think of anti-ranged mechanisms in this game. One path to making champs' blue line viable would be to make it similar to other tanks - but not as tanky as guards. I would be okay with that. However, my opinion (which I know doesn't reflect everyone) would be that there is an opportunity to create a different type of tank that fits with champions better. I would make the champ's blue line still about getting might, rather than about stacking vitality (which would mean switching between lines or maintaining multiple lines would be easier). I would make their role in a raid to be picking up ads and DPSing them asap so that the raid can turn back to the boss.

- Rather than using morale to survive, give champs a big enough bubble to take massive, but short-lived hits from lots of high-dps, relatively low morale ads
- The champ bubble may need to be increased significantly. The CD and/or length may need to be altered.
- Champs would still not be a good "main tank" because they can't withstand sustained DPS between when their bubble runs out and when the CD runs out.
- Equipping might, crit rating, and PMast would help with this role (like every other champ role)
- Ads could have low Finesse, low crit rating, high Pmast making BPE (which champs get in spades with might) important for tanking the ads
- Blue champs could put off massive amounts of threat to attract the ads, while the main tank holds the boss with taunts (champs have a pathetic taunt ability)
- If the ads aren’t killed while the champ bubble is active, then the champ might die (exhaled combat may allow for 1 minor “mistake” every 90 seconds (may want to increase CD if bubble is increased)
- If the champ dies, then other ads might flock to the highest DPS, highest healer, or overwhelm the tank
- If the group does DPS on the boss too quickly, then the champ bubble will still be on CD
- possibly the ads even increase their DPS at about 20 seconds

To me that seems like a fun and sensible way to use the champ blue line that would make it useful, but not completely necessary (i.e. there would be other ways to get past the fight). However, I understand that other people might have different opinions, and as long it is viable, then I can respect that.

[Daenirion]

Regarding recent changes:

• Glory now reduces all damage, not just melee damage. Seems fine.
  
• Champion's Challenge now puts a short but powerful damage debuff on the target (-30%, 5 seconds) to help a skilled Champion mitigate large called attacks. I had a similar idea, but having an effect like this on a force taunt makes little sense and is problematic, especially if you're red or yellow. Champion's survivability has been lacking across all specs since you took away their bubble. I'd suggest to make Adamant baseline for all 3 specs and instead copy paste Champion's Duel from redline to blue and change it to the -30% incoming damage effect. Reduce the CD of Champion's challenge to 15s from 30.
  
• The blue line Vitality trait is now called "Stalwart Blade" and grants a maximum 5% parry chance bonus in addition to its vitality benefit. Meh
  
• Sprint cooldown has been reduced from 5 minutes to 2 minutes, and down to 60 seconds with buffs. Sprint duration is 45s with a pre-imbued swap weapon

Additional suggestions:

• Reduce True Heroics CD from 120s to 90s and the critical chance buff should be applied to the entire group if you're specd Blue
• Buff Sudden Defence

[mrfigglesworth]

Champions challenge is short but not powerful, as it subtracts mastery % instead of Multiplies by .7. In essence, it's nothing near lm -30% debuff. In t2 + situations, this means that whoever is challenged will be debuffed by like 5%.

[Malganis_Lefay]

not a fan that Horn of Champions gets a force taunt >>by default<< that basicly costs (red and yellow) champs even more of our meager utiliy in group content

i hope the devs move that force taunt component to deafening horn trait and leave the base version the way it is

[HolyDuckTape]

not a fan that Horn of Champions gets a force taunt >>by default<< that basicly costs (red and yellow) champs even more of our meager utiliy in group content

i hope the devs move that force taunt component to deafening horn trait and leave the base version the way it is

+1 but preferably i would like to just see their main AoE taunt cd reduced instead of adding this taunt to begin with. It is meant to be utility, not a taunt. This will become very counterproductive for blue champs. And ofcourse a 30sec AoE taunt is too OP if ur not a captain or warden. What are they scared of? Ohno true heroics on a 45s cd will be too OP because of the power it gives to the group!!! /s