Get rid of combat in session play or make it very easy

[DavidmeetHal]

I love session play, but oh my god, I hate the combat. It's on level, you have to slog your way through mobs, and you are using skills you've never seen before, and it's in an instance that's about storytelling, not experience or loot.

It's not the difficulty, it's the annoyance factor. I like session play for the narrative, not mobs.

At least make the combat a cake walk. Regular instances? Bring it on! I like a challenge. Instances are made for combat, and I like it.

But session play? There's no point in on level combat when there are no rewards and the focus is storytelling. It's tedious and annoying.

[Halphast]

Agreed. I've never seen it actually work in a positive way for a game to force you to play another character. You chose your race and class for a reason; the game shouldn't force you to play another race/class and learn new skills/attacks for a 5-10 minute storytelling instance with no real rewards.

"Now my child it's time to learn the history of Moria and its downfall."

"Oh Grandfather, are you talking about the horrible Balrog that was released and killed the king?"

"Well that was part of it... but did you know that a servant dwarf had to fight 20 cave-claws just before the balrog was freed?"

"....neat...?"

"No but you don't understand- he had these really mediocre abilities and it was kind of a struggle for him."

"Ok?"

"You're not paying attention. So he approached the very first cave-claw, and it went 'Reaaa, reaaaa,' threatening to attack..."

"Do I need to know this, Grandfather?"

"And then he used his knockdown ability on the cave-claw which surprised it somewhat for a short time. That enabled the dwarf to use his next skill..."

"Grandfather this isn't part of the real story is it-"

"Be quiet! Well the first battle with the first cave-claw raged on while the king and the visiting elves waited and watched. They became slightly impatient but it had to be done."

"I think I want to go out to play now..."

"No, you will sit here and listen. So finally the first cave-claw was defeated! Then the servant walked slowly through the cave looking for the second..."

[Fegefeuer]

Why do you want this? I'm sure everyone will miss the angmarim vs slugs quest

Tbh, I wouldn't like combat to be removed, I just wish they would make the skills more powerful, specially in the SoA ones. I enjoy the Moria and Rohan session plays (Folca vs Boar is one of my favourites).

But I agree that Laerdan in Eregion or the infamous Angmarim vs slugs are terrible.

[Nebless]

I honestly DON'T look forward to session play for this very reason.

I've yet to 'become' a class I'm familiar with so there's that and then the combat is just mind numbing boring. Set it up so we one shot everything just to move the story along and it would be fine with me.

[OldMadeOfLions]

I love session play, but oh my god, I hate the combat. It's on level, you have to slog your way through mobs, and you are using skills you've never seen before, and it's in an instance that's about storytelling, not experience or loot.

I'm with you on the tedium vs. fun debate.

The reason for the imbalance is because our sessionplay characters don't follow the same statistical progressions that normal characters do, but the enemies they fight generally exist in the big pool of ordinary monsters. Because they're one-off characters tied to specific content, they're pretty easily forgotten as time marches on and the designer who made them gets busy with other things. But the big pool of monsters tends to get stronger and tougher and better as Vastin makes his adjustments, and the sessionplay characters get left behind, earning my poor Angmarim Cultist a wholly-undeserved reputation as One Of The Low Points.

Well, somewhat undeserved.

Anyway, we do this thing called Bug-Fixing Friday where we each pick some bugs to focus on at the end of the week, and I think this Friday I might see what I can do about making these sessionplays less of a pain. I'm leaning towards knocking down the monster morale in every case, and we'll see if that helps.

MoL

[Pavlin]

Make non session play cinematic
The ones you dont play on your character atleast.
Or make them skipable.
Wonder about the troll who even add a session play daily /ne from dol amroth if i remember correct/
It not even rewards xp or rep

And yes i`m seriours. Make them skipable /if you already done them once per account/

[Thurinuor]

I'm with you on the tedium vs. fun debate.

The reason for the imbalance is because our sessionplay characters don't follow the same statistical progressions that normal characters do, but the enemies they fight generally exist in the big pool of ordinary monsters. Because they're one-off characters tied to specific content, they're pretty easily forgotten as time marches on and the designer who made them gets busy with other things. But the big pool of monsters tends to get stronger and tougher and better as Vastin makes his adjustments, and the sessionplay characters get left behind, earning my poor Angmarim Cultist a wholly-undeserved reputation as One Of The Low Points.

Well, somewhat undeserved.

Anyway, we do this thing called Bug-Fixing Friday where we each pick some bugs to focus on at the end of the week, and I think this Friday I might see what I can do about making these sessionplays less of a pain. I'm leaning towards knocking down the monster morale in every case, and we'll see if that helps.

MoL

Thanks for the explanation! I like the idea of bugfixing fridays! Keep on the good work and thanks! <3

[DanteIL]

"Now my child it's time to learn the history of Moria and its downfall."

[LOL]

"No, you will sit here and listen. So finally the first cave-claw was defeated! Then the servant walked slowly through the cave looking for the second..."

Too funny! Perfectly captures the experience of that session play.

[Frisco]

I love you MoL, but that Angmarim quest was a slog from day 1. You'd use 3 skills and be auto-attacking the rest of the instance because power regen is basically nil. I think maybe that's fixed now though?

[SkyWarpPro]

In relation to this somewhat, is the first big battle at helms deep. My burglar has failed that battle way too many times and I can't seem to figure out how to get past it to continue playing.

[Moondog548]

I'm with you on the tedium vs. fun debate.

The reason for the imbalance is because our sessionplay characters don't follow the same statistical progressions that normal characters do, but the enemies they fight generally exist in the big pool of ordinary monsters. Because they're one-off characters tied to specific content, they're pretty easily forgotten as time marches on and the designer who made them gets busy with other things. But the big pool of monsters tends to get stronger and tougher and better as Vastin makes his adjustments, and the sessionplay characters get left behind, earning my poor Angmarim Cultist a wholly-undeserved reputation as One Of The Low Points.

Well, somewhat undeserved.

Anyway, we do this thing called Bug-Fixing Friday where we each pick some bugs to focus on at the end of the week, and I think this Friday I might see what I can do about making these sessionplays less of a pain. I'm leaning towards knocking down the monster morale in every case, and we'll see if that helps.

MoL

Great communication, thanks, and good luck!

[Sindhol]

session play [...] it's in an instance that's about storytelling

...and they don't have the combat to match, which is exactly what's wrong with them. Session plays are often very light on combat, and when there's combat everything's very easy, and you're playing an incomplete character without interesting mechanics. I think We Cannot Get Out is probably the high point, and it's not terrible, but pretty much every other session play is just a snoozefest.


As an example, let's take "The Legend of Folca", a level 89 session play quest in Rohan. It retells the legend of how a certain Folca killed a really big boar.

So, how is Folca portrayed? Well, he's a bare-chested Rohirrim with a spear and a shield, and his skills use warden skill icons. So far, so good: we're playing a warden, or something very like a warden, because this represents Folca's legendary abilities. Say I haven't played a warden before. Now I'm thinking that this is, perhaps, an introduction to the class (I mean, the Fall of Moria sort-of had a champion, right? Maybe that's how these things work). That's nice; I've heard things about wardens, so let's see what they can do.

Well, Folca's got only four skills, which is probably to make our introduction less confusing. No gambits, either. With you so far, though four skills seems a bit limited (especially with that 45s cooldown on the fourth). Now, the skills aren't anything like warden skills (no bleeds, a stun?), which is a bit odd, and there's no heals, taunts, ranged attacks, or indeed anything remotely warden-y. Good, well, Folca is hunting a boar, so maybe he has some hunter skills? Think again! No traps, no Passage of Nature, no Heartseeker with Shot through the Heart--nothing at all that suggests that Folca was anything but the lowest of trash mobs. Well, at least that means the struggle with the mighty boar is a right challenge, isn't it? Got to use those limited skills to the maximum! Well, erm, yes, that is, it's not quite like that: the challenge is less the boar, and more the bore, if you'll forgive the pun. You don't need sleep? I'm sorry, this instance probably isn't for you.

And now I'm disappointed and want to go play another game.


Now, there are examples of good storytelling through the skills on your bar. In the (otherwise extremely boring) Volume IV book 8 and 9 session plays, there's a really nice example that I won't spoil for anyone yet to do them. And there are examples of completely ludricous skills that couldn't possibly be balanced in real play being used to liven up a session play--the horn skill in We Cannot Get Out is great fun on the bridge (when it doesn't bug the mobs out, that is). But cases like these are really rather rare, and that's a shame. The session plays that are currently in the game barely scratch the surface of what could be done with the technology, and it hurts the story. If the character was a bit more interesting and powerful, then the enemy could be a bit more interesting and powerful, and then the combat would be a bit more interesting, and it would actually tell a story; then, perhaps, it wouldn't be so bad to spend a little longer in combat, wouldn't it?


In conclusion: Session plays don't need easier combat, they need more involved, more engaging, more relevant combat; less monologue, and more storytelling-through-mechanics (the gaming equivalent of "show, don't tell"). Give us something that can only be done in session play: control over a major character (Aragorn at Weathertop! Gandalf atop Orthanc! Gil-Galad before Barad-Dûr!) with skills to match, telling the story through their abilities. Hell, it doesn't even have to be a freep--I would be interested in playing a Nazgûl for a while, as long as I get to summon my glooms and cast my eyes and place my puddles for maximum mayhem .

[DavidmeetHal]

I'm with you on the tedium vs. fun debate.

The reason for the imbalance is because our sessionplay characters don't follow the same statistical progressions that normal characters do, but the enemies they fight generally exist in the big pool of ordinary monsters. Because they're one-off characters tied to specific content, they're pretty easily forgotten as time marches on and the designer who made them gets busy with other things. But the big pool of monsters tends to get stronger and tougher and better as Vastin makes his adjustments, and the sessionplay characters get left behind, earning my poor Angmarim Cultist a wholly-undeserved reputation as One Of The Low Points.

Well, somewhat undeserved.

Anyway, we do this thing called Bug-Fixing Friday where we each pick some bugs to focus on at the end of the week, and I think this Friday I might see what I can do about making these sessionplays less of a pain. I'm leaning towards knocking down the monster morale in every case, and we'll see if that helps.

MoL

This gives me hope, thank you!

[gildhur]

Anyway, we do this thing called Bug-Fixing Friday where we each pick some bugs to focus on at the end of the week, and I think this Friday I might see what I can do about making these sessionplays less of a pain. I'm leaning towards knocking down the monster morale in every case, and we'll see if that helps.

Can you also bring back Destiny Point rewards for kills in session play in lieu of XP? Not only does session play sometimes feel like a slog with some of the characters' lackluster abilities, but it also doesn't feel rewarding like doing standard quests that give XP, IXP, MXP for every kill.

[OldMadeOfLions]

Can you also bring back Destiny Point rewards for kills in session play in lieu of XP?

I'm gonna say no on this one -- the goal isn't to get you to spend more time in these spaces.

MoL

[OldMadeOfLions]

Greetings from Bug-fixing Friday!

These changes won't go in until a future update, but here's a preview of some of the changes I made today:

Made some adjustments to reduce tedium in 'Sessionplay: The Fall of Moria'
- Reduced the vitality of the cave-claws and deep-claws in Azanarukar
- Removed some of Nafni's slower-paced skills
- Added a new skill with a 30 second cooldown: Nafni's Speed
- Nafni's Speed boosts our playable dwarf's runspeed by 150%, letting him zip through the grand hall of Moria much more quickly

Made some adjustments to reduce tedium in 'Sessionplay: We Cannot Get Out'
- Reduced the vitality of the several types of Orcs (except for Mazog)

Made some adjustments to reduce tedium in 'Sessionplay: The Prisoner of Sammath Baul'
- Reduced the vitality of the slugs in Sammath Baul, and removed their slowing puddles
- Lowered the duration of the 'Motivating...' induction from 7 seconds to 3 seconds
- Lowered the duration of the 'Persuading...' induction from 10 seconds to 2 seconds
- Removed some of the Bloodletter's unnecessary skill clutter (Dark Faith, Time of Waste, Staying Alive)

Made some adjustments to reduce tedium in 'Sessionplay: The Fate of Laerdan'
- Reduced the vitality of Orcs, Half-orcs, and Angmarim

Made some adjustments to reduce tedium in 'Sessionplay: Daughter of Strife'
- Reduced the vitality of the Durub Orcs (but not the leader)


I still have a few things I have in mind for 'The Prisoner of Sammath Baul,' but I don't want to disturb the designers working on the raid by stealing their files out from under them, so I'll probably go back in for the last few adjustments in there at a later date. But these changes feel like a pretty good start.

MoL

[Laurelinarien]

Oh wow, three cheers to Bug-fixing Friday!

/toast

[Dinara]

Thank You MadeOfLions!!!

[DavidmeetHal]

Greetings from Bug-fixing Friday!

These changes won't go in until a future update, but here's a preview of some of the changes I made today:

Made some adjustments to reduce tedium in 'Sessionplay: The Fall of Moria'
- Reduced the vitality of the cave-claws and deep-claws in Azanarukar
- Removed some of Nafni's slower-paced skills
- Added a new skill with a 30 second cooldown: Nafni's Speed
- Nafni's Speed boosts our playable dwarf's runspeed by 150%, letting him zip through the grand hall of Moria much more quickly

Made some adjustments to reduce tedium in 'Sessionplay: We Cannot Get Out'
- Reduced the vitality of the several types of Orcs (except for Mazog)

Made some adjustments to reduce tedium in 'Sessionplay: The Prisoner of Sammath Baul'
- Reduced the vitality of the slugs in Sammath Baul, and removed their slowing puddles
- Lowered the duration of the 'Motivating...' induction from 7 seconds to 3 seconds
- Lowered the duration of the 'Persuading...' induction from 10 seconds to 2 seconds
- Removed some of the Bloodletter's unnecessary skill clutter (Dark Faith, Time of Waste, Staying Alive)

Made some adjustments to reduce tedium in 'Sessionplay: The Fate of Laerdan'
- Reduced the vitality of Orcs, Half-orcs, and Angmarim

Made some adjustments to reduce tedium in 'Sessionplay: Daughter of Strife'
- Reduced the vitality of the Durub Orcs (but not the leader)


I still have a few things I have in mind for 'The Prisoner of Sammath Baul,' but I don't want to disturb the designers working on the raid by stealing their files out from under them, so I'll probably go back in for the last few adjustments in there at a later date. But these changes feel like a pretty good start.

MoL

Dude, thank you!!!!!

[gildhur]

Made some adjustments to reduce tedium in 'Sessionplay: We Cannot Get Out'
- Reduced the vitality of the several types of Orcs (except for Mazog)

NOOOOOOOO

This is hands down the most fun session play instance in the game (the AOE horn knockback is a big part of it). The orcs already die really quickly with all the big AOE skills the dwarf has. The massive fight in Mazarbul isn't actually dangerous but it feels that way. I wouldn't have changed a thing about this instance ever.

[OldMadeOfLions]

The massive fight in Mazarbul isn't actually dangerous but it feels that way. I wouldn't have changed a thing about this instance ever.

No? You wouldn't change a thing about the single most bug-reported instance I've ever made?

I'll always love 'We Cannot Get Out,' but this is very much the one piece of content about which I've gotten the most complaints (of the 'I keep dying!' or 'How is this even possible?' variety) over the years, and the runner-up isn't even close. I've slowly been turning the dials back on it for the better part of twelve years, so it's hard to say which edition of it you've most enjoyed.

But today's changes were mainly about making it a smoother experience. I might revisit it next Friday to make sure the end still feels exciting.

MoL

[Ryvick]

Any particular reason reducing power costs on Session play skills to nil or 1 isn't an option? Just curious.

[Hallandil]

No? You wouldn't change a thing about the single most bug-reported instance I've ever made?

I'll always love 'We Cannot Get Out,' but this is very much the one piece of content about which I've gotten the most complaints (of the 'I keep dying!' or 'How is this even possible?' variety) over the years, and the runner-up isn't even close. I've slowly been turning the dials back on it for the better part of twelve years, so it's hard to say which edition of it you've most enjoyed.

But today's changes were mainly about making it a smoother experience. I might revisit it next Friday to make sure the end still feels exciting.

MoL

Could be that players who run into the hallway to fight the troll (instead of waiting for it to enter the room) accidentally one-shot themselves on a kill wall.

[Thornglen]

No? You wouldn't change a thing about the single most bug-reported instance I've ever made?

I'll always love 'We Cannot Get Out,' but this is very much the one piece of content about which I've gotten the most complaints (of the 'I keep dying!' or 'How is this even possible?' variety) over the years, and the runner-up isn't even close. I've slowly been turning the dials back on it for the better part of twelve years, so it's hard to say which edition of it you've most enjoyed.

But today's changes were mainly about making it a smoother experience. I might revisit it next Friday to make sure the end still feels exciting.

MoL

I know it is not something that we're likely to see where the mechanics and design of things like session play are already so established, but when there are solo Epic Story instances like this one where the whole point is for it to be tense and deadly, difficulty options would have been handy. Just want to get through it to see the Epic? Pick story mode. Want the danger and challenge? Pick challenge mode (with a warning like 'Death From Below').

I can dream.

[Harla]

Any particular reason reducing power costs on Session play skills to nil or 1 isn't an option? Just curious.

This has been done in a few places already - such as the instance where you play a Frodo, deciding to leave and Boromir tried to take the ring. There used to be a power cost on your skills as Frodo, which made fighting Boromir for any length of time impractical, but now they're all free, so you can worry-foot away from him indefinitely and never run out of power.

I always consider the session play encounters to be entertaining diversions - sometimes I'm in the mood for them, and sometimes I'm not, but that's not a fault about the plays themselves; that's me.

If anything, I feel disappointed when we're given a character with an interesting selection of unique (or semi-unique) skills, but then we don't really get a chance to use them - session plays where you have nifty-looking things on your bars, but no combat comes up.

I'm also a player who likes to push against the 'not intended' boundaries in terms of action (less so exploration; going out of bounds isn't my thing - killing what I'm not meant to be able to is.) I had a giggle a few days ago when one of my characters did the Frodo Session play, and when I killed Boromir, he dropped a 3rd age captain's symbol. It would be fun to see divergent ends on session failure... though I know that's too much work. You kill Boromir, and return to the camp, and they greet you and ask you where Boromir is, and Frodo is just, in that calmly affable hobbit way. "Oh, he tried to take the ring from me, so I killed him. Anyway. I've decided where we're going now. Any objections? No? Good. Let's be off." *Session Failure, Dark-Lord Hobbit End*

In 'We Cannot Get Out', I enjoyed the first iteration of this, where there was a certain amount of difficulty involved and you could potentially get wiped out if you didn't manage your skills wisely. I always fought and killed the trolls at the end, and I've been more disappointed that it's far less of a challenge these days.

On that note - I very much liked the way that was handled, since the trolls weren't necessary to beat the session, but could be engaged. In the initial version of the instance, it was a challenging and clearly unintended feat to best them... or you could just finish the instance without doing anything so daft. I would really appreciate session plays like that more - Where you can complete them without too much danger or difficulty, but where there was ways to play, things to do, or enemies to engage that are a real challenge or intended to be insurmountable, that you can attempt - ideally in a way that you finish the session requirements first and so will still have completed the session story already and will not have to repeat it if you fail, though I'd understand if that was more difficult or less feasible.