The Conspicuous Absence of Burglar Nerfs

[Aeviternus]

It has been months since Burglars received the update that made them literally the most overpowered DPS class in the game, bar none. Over the course of this expansion, we have seen one slight burglar nerf, in the form of a damage reduction to FB and DES. Granted, since those two skills make up 50% of their overall damage, this was noticable. However, it isn't nearly enough. Currently, Burglars have:
- The strongest single target (ST) DPS in the game
- The best defensive cooldowns in the game (yes, even better than tanks)
- The best AoE in the game up to 3-4 targets (they can only hit 3, but their DPS is still on par with champs on 4)

This has been the case ever since the burglar update, and I've been saying it since that came onto Bullroarer. If your aim is to balance this game to the best of your ability, then something needs to be done about this. It's perfectly fine for Burglars to have the level of DPS that they currently have, if they are the squishiest class in the game. But they are not. They are the sturdiest class in the game. It's perfectly fine for Burglars to do as much AoE DPS as they are doing, but not while doing the highest ST DPS at the same time.

Most of these issues are easily addressed. To fix burglar survivability:
- Remove the damage reduction from Provoke
- Remove Ready and Able from red line
- Reduce Touch and Go healing to 20-30% of max. morale
- Remove the Force Taunt from Knives Out
To fix the DPS issue:
- Make All-In only usable in-combat (like with Oathbreakers)
- Make FB and DES Single Target again by default
- Reduce the damage on FB and DES by another 10%
- Add a toggle skill that makes all Crit Chain abilities deal AoE damage, but reduces outgoing damage by 50% and decreases attack speed. This way, Burglars can compete in AoE DPS, but can't deal top tier ST DPS simultaneously.

[Brinuw]

I cant say much in the way of Red Burgs, but on behalf of a Blue Burg please rebalance skill damage. Even traited and legacied to maximize bleed damage FB and DES are still by far my top dps contributors. When the burg rebalance happened I got excited that Blue Burgs could have a place as a support dps, managing moderate damage output while providing decent damage debuffs and a reflective heal to fill the hole left by the revealing mark nerf, but alas unless you trait FB your numbers will not worth the spot you sit in.

Its honestly kinda sad to see the number of "flavor of the month" classes in raid groups these days because they have just led to uninspired raid line ups. Filling 5 dps spots with 2 burgs and 3 yellow RK's is just bland since one's support capability is already covered by the yellow burg and the other brings hardly any support at all.

I do think there should be a nerf to red line burgs. Maybe move the AoE part of their crit chain to blue line and keep red line at the top of the single target pile, or nerf damage of red specific skills/traits. I do not thing the class as a whole should punish due to one trait line being OP however.

[Aeviternus]

I cant say much in the way of Red Burgs, but on behalf of a Blue Burg please rebalance skill damage. Even traited and legacied to maximize bleed damage FB and DES are still by far my top dps contributors. When the burg rebalance happened I got excited that Blue Burgs could have a place as a support dps, managing moderate damage output while providing decent damage debuffs and a reflective heal to fill the hole left by the revealing mark nerf, but alas unless you trait FB your numbers will not worth the spot you sit in.

Its honestly kinda sad to see the number of "flavor of the month" classes in raid groups these days because they have just led to uninspired raid line ups. Filling 5 dps spots with 2 burgs and 3 yellow RK's is just bland since one's support capability is already covered by the yellow burg and the other brings hardly any support at all.

I do think there should be a nerf to red line burgs. Maybe move the AoE part of their crit chain to blue line and keep red line at the top of the single target pile, or nerf damage of red specific skills/traits. I do not thing the class as a whole should punish due to one trait line being OP however.

Firstly, I would say blue burglars are just a rare breed like yellow hunters, and are generally not considered when talking about class balance. In principle, we should take them into account, but for practical purposes, it's pointless, because we all know SSG don't have the resources to even care about tertiary trait lines (let alone that the blue burglar's role is very ill defined).

Having said that, I think an alternative solution to what I proposed in my initial post, would be to give Blue Burglars significant AoE damage capacity, and remove it from red line. That way, burgs will function in a way similar to champions, and we won't have to deal with the issue of having one spec that can do the highest ST DPS, as well as the highest 3-4 target cleave at the same time.

[OdysseyEvernight]

i am up for all the nerves but PLEASE:

give us the old trick counter defence back from pre helms deep.

[Snobs]

Unpopular opinion:
Average Burgs don't get the numbers you see posted by some people here. Average Burgs are not Top DPS. Hell, with the Fate "Bug" that only affected RKs' and Wardens' DPS (which isn't even a real bug to begin with) even Top Burgs only were #2/3 for DPS, not even counting in the fact that RKs also got range and DNF and Wardens are superb for removing Corruptions (which was quite important for the Shelob fight for example). For the T3 WF Race, overall Burgs were below RKs and Wardens.

Yes, with the Fate "bug" getting fixed, Burgs will probably be #1 in DPS again and I agree that with the amount of defensives a Burg got (T&G heal and Knives Out primarily), they're too tanky. However, let's not forget that there is soo much optimisation potential on the Burglar class that RKs and Wardens simply don't have. RK is a class that can literally be played by an "Anti-AFK-Macro" and still put out decent DPS. Also, Burg is only great for up to 3 Targets on a consistent fight, meaning if he can cleave permanently. Otherwise, his AOE is nowhere near RKs/Wardens/Champs.

Wardens for example were extremely well balanced prior to the Fate "Bug". There's no need to change anything about them imo.
Hunters and Champs obviously need a buff.

Average RKs start off at a much higher DPS compared to average Burgs and then on the other side, Burglars can fine-tune extremely many things to increase their DPS.
However, if you want to buff RKs, then give them a meaningful rotation that can not be done by monkeys and also allow them to fine-tune (which is currently very underwhelming for RKs). Also don't forget that RKs offer range DPS and DNFs.

On the other hand, if you want to nerf Burglars, then the average Burg shouldn't go below the other classes' average players in DPS. If you don't take the time to look at how much fine-tuning Burglar requires to get the numbers people are posting, then don't blindly ask for nerfs. People always just take a look at the dummy parses. Obviously, Burglar parses much better on an AFK dummy that gives you 100% positional damage uptime than on a Boss or add fights that don't.

Burglar defensives should be nerfed, yes. However, I disagree about the DPS nerfs/suggestions. FB and DES as AOE abilities made Burglars a viable option for 3 and 6man content which I don't think is a bad thing. Hunters for example would also need to have AOE to make them viable/good for Group Content (in addition to the ST buff that they desperately need).

[Aeviternus]

Unpopular opinion:
Average Burgs don't get the numbers you see posted by some people here. Average Burgs are not Top DPS. Hell, with the Fate "Bug" that only affected RKs' and Wardens' DPS (which isn't even a real bug to begin with) even Top Burgs only were #2/3 for DPS, not even counting in the fact that RKs also got range and DNF and Wardens are superb for removing Corruptions (which was quite important for the Shelob fight for example). For the T3 WF Race, overall Burgs were below RKs and Wardens.

Yes, with the Fate "bug" getting fixed, Burgs will probably be #1 in DPS again and I agree that with the amount of defensives a Burg got (T&G heal and Knives Out primarily), they're too tanky. However, let's not forget that there is soo much optimisation potential on the Burglar class that RKs and Wardens simply don't have. RK is a class that can literally be played by an "Anti-AFK-Macro" and still put out decent DPS. Also, Burg is only great for up to 3 Targets on a consistent fight, meaning if he can cleave permanently. Otherwise, his AOE is nowhere near RKs/Wardens/Champs.

Wardens for example were extremely well balanced prior to the Fate "Bug". There's no need to change anything about them imo.
Hunters and Champs obviously need a buff.

Average RKs start off at a much higher DPS compared to average Burgs and then on the other side, Burglars can fine-tune extremely many things to increase their DPS.
However, if you want to buff RKs, then give them a meaningful rotation that can not be done by monkeys and also allow them to fine-tune (which is currently very underwhelming for RKs). Also don't forget that RKs offer range DPS and DNFs.

On the other hand, if you want to nerf Burglars, then the average Burg shouldn't go below the other classes' average players in DPS. If you don't take the time to look at how much fine-tuning Burglar requires to get the numbers people are posting, then don't blindly ask for nerfs. People always just take a look at the dummy parses. Obviously, Burglar parses much better on an AFK dummy that gives you 100% positional damage uptime than on a Boss or add fights that don't.

Burglar defensives should be nerfed, yes. However, I disagree about the DPS nerfs/suggestions. FB and DES as AOE abilities made Burglars a viable option for 3 and 6man content which I don't think is a bad thing. Hunters for example would also need to have AOE to make them viable/good for Group Content (in addition to the ST buff that they desperately need).

That's reasonable critique of my original post, and I'm willing to accept that. I don't generally think of class balancing as being done with regards to one particular skill level, though. If burglars are still overperforming at the highest level, I think that's an issue.
For example, if we balanced Champions around what DPS the average champion does, the top tier Champions would be far too strong. I don't think that's fair. I think the average champion should instead be left behind, then, and use this as incentive to improve. I would say the same for Burglars.

Regarding the AoE; you did not read my post fully, because I suggested a different mechanism through which Burglars could still do AoE, just not while doing ST DPS at the same time.

Finally, I don't think RKs were ahead of Burgs in DPS at all, even with the fate bug, they just saw more representation for different reasons. Easier to play, in-combat resses (especially valuable for progression raiding), and ranged.
Bottom line is: we can all agree that Burglar defensives need a nerf, and opinions are divided about whether or not their DPS should be nerfed. Personally, I think it's ludicrous that the highest ST DPS spec in the game can also do the best cleave at the same time. I also think a further nerf to ST DPS is justified, considering reports of 230k+ dummy parses. No other class can even come near such numbers.

[Djo]

That's reasonable critique of my original post, and I'm willing to accept that. I don't generally think of class balancing as being done with regards to one particular skill level, though. If burglars are still overperforming at the highest level, I think that's an issue.
For example, if we balanced Champions around what DPS the average champion does, the top tier Champions would be far too strong. I don't think that's fair. I think the average champion should instead be left behind, then, and use this as incentive to improve. I would say the same for Burglars.

Regarding the AoE; you did not read my post fully, because I suggested a different mechanism through which Burglars could still do AoE, just not while doing ST DPS at the same time.

Finally, I don't think RKs were ahead of Burgs in DPS at all, even with the fate bug, they just saw more representation for different reasons. Easier to play, in-combat resses (especially valuable for progression raiding), and ranged.
Bottom line is: we can all agree that Burglar defensives need a nerf, and opinions are divided about whether or not their DPS should be nerfed. Personally, I think it's ludicrous that the highest ST DPS spec in the game can also do the best cleave at the same time. I also think a further nerf to ST DPS is justified, considering reports of 230k+ dummy parses. No other class can even come near such numbers.

Good morning,
in fact, in the highest dps raids we observe are the rk and wardens. On the defensive side the rk have the personal motivation and the bubble, the warden has the impossible surrender. The burglars lose dps in the moves and must be careful to stay behind the enemy's back.When I see the messages announcing 230 on a dummy I wonder who can make that score without the essence of destiny and without all in.


I'm afraid that pvp claims get mixed up with pve claims.
In most of the posts I noticed that the dps and survivability issues were actually mostly written by pvp players.


Nowadays in most bands the burglar is in yellow line. The dps are provided by the rk and warden, sometimes champions and burglars.
Before thinking about the nerve of the burglar, I thought that the priority would be to allow our hunter friends to participate in raids again.


Djo

[MaiaOlorin]

Personally, I think it's ludicrous that the highest ST DPS spec in the game can also do the best cleave at the same time. I also think a further nerf to ST DPS is justified, considering reports of 230k+ dummy parses. No other class can even come near such numbers.

Just passing by, reading the above... I can understand how burgs can be considered too tanky. But pretending they are n°1 ST DPS is bollocks. And I'm very eager to see any records of burg's parses going up to 230k... (that is, if you mean a 3min parse on a residence dummy). That's either a fantasy or one more exploit trick based on broken mechanics or macros.

[Aeviternus]

Good morning,
in fact, in the highest dps raids we observe are the rk and wardens. On the defensive side the rk have the personal motivation and the bubble, the warden has the impossible surrender. The burglars lose dps in the moves and must be careful to stay behind the enemy's back.When I see the messages announcing 230 on a dummy I wonder who can make that score without the essence of destiny and without all in.

Wardens are the highest DPS on live due to the fate bug. Once that gets fixed, as it has been on Bullroarer, Burglars will be the highest ST DPS. They already do more than RKs on live. Perhaps you personally don't. In that case, that's an indicator that you have areas to improve in.

I'm afraid that pvp claims get mixed up with pve claims.
In most of the posts I noticed that the dps and survivability issues were actually mostly written by pvp players.

Nice attempt at deflection, but I haven't set foot inside of PvMP for more than a year.

Nowadays in most bands the burglar is in yellow line. The dps are provided by the rk and warden, sometimes champions and burglars.
Before thinking about the nerve of the burglar, I thought that the priority would be to allow our hunter friends to participate in raids again.

They're two separate issues. Sure, hunters should get some buffs. But Burglars should get nerfed. At least their survivability, if nothing else.

Just passing by, reading the above... I can understand how burgs can be considered too tanky. But pretending they are n°1 ST DPS is bollocks. And I'm very eager to see any records of burg's parses going up to 230k... (that is, if you mean a 3min parse on a residence dummy). That's either a fantasy or one more exploit trick based on broken mechanics or macros.

Fantasy? On the contrary. There's another forum thread in the general section that discussed each class's DPS. Burglars and Champions (after the buffs) are the highest ST DPS. Meanwhile, Burglars also have 3-target cleave and the survivability of a tank.
And that's assuming that 165k dummy parses for Burglars are the average, when I've heard claims of much higher parses, meaning Burglar DPS in raids would be absolutely busted under those conditions.

[Djo]

please, can you or someone you know show us in a stream
270k on a dummy (yes i have to improve myself ; without all in and with 600k Physical Mastery and 600k Crit i can reach 130k dps on residence dummy after 3min)
Thanks

[Aeviternus]

please, can you or someone you know show us in a stream
270k on a dummy (yes i have to improve myself ; without all in and with 600k Physical Mastery and 600k Crit i can reach 130k dps on residence dummy after 3min)
Thanks

That's exactly what I've been asking for as well. Regardless, I've already seen proof of 230k, which is also crazy high.

[Djo]

So, no one can show it's true ?