SSG...A Question

[Intolerance]

Ever going to update the Hunter class?

It's quite literally a slap in the face to players who choose what's supposed to be the highest single target DPS class in the game, only to be out-DPS'd by other classes; classes that also bring much more utility to group instances & raids.

EVERY SINGLE DAY I see groups asking for DPS...just not Hunter DPS.

Usually it's RK DPS, but that's a different topic for a different day.

Why do they say that though?

Because everyone knows Hunter DPS is sub-par to other classes, while also offering less overall utility.

I'm not even going to ask please.

I'll just ask that you do your jobs.

Thanks!

[Varulv]

Ever going to update the Hunter class?

It's quite literally a slap in the face to players who choose what's supposed to be the highest single target DPS class in the game, only to be out-DPS'd by other classes; classes that also bring much more utility to group instances & raids.

EVERY SINGLE DAY I see groups asking for DPS...just not Hunter DPS.

Usually it's RK DPS, but that's a different topic for a different day.

Why do they say that though?

Because everyone knows Hunter DPS is sub-par to other classes, while also offering less overall utility.

I'm not even going to ask please.

I'll just ask that you do your jobs.

Thanks!

WORD!

SSG apparently just doesn't care - I've rarely experienced such ignorance.
I am annoyed with every shop point I bought. I can do without funny events and parties - you should rather use the time to fix the classes. the hunter is useless in the endcontent

[WorrBinpike]

Repeating, you see this often in Worldchat

"DD remmo T1, no hunters plz."

[Tatharil]

Ever going to update the Hunter class?

It's quite literally a slap in the face to players who choose what's supposed to be the highest single target DPS class in the game, only to be out-DPS'd by other classes; classes that also bring much more utility to group instances & raids.

EVERY SINGLE DAY I see groups asking for DPS...just not Hunter DPS.

Usually it's RK DPS, but that's a different topic for a different day.

Why do they say that though?

Because everyone knows Hunter DPS is sub-par to other classes, while also offering less overall utility.

I'm not even going to ask please.

I'll just ask that you do your jobs.

Thanks!

And the saddest part of it: Once they will finally do their job and pay attention to hunter dps, yellow hunters will probably be the ones, that will have to pay the price ... again. We were promised to get some attention, when you red and blue got your update, that ruined our dps further. This was over 2 years ago. What did we get? Not even a word since then.

[Elmagor]

And the saddest part of it: Once they will finally do their job and pay attention to hunter dps, yellow hunters will probably be the ones, that will have to pay the price ... again. We were promised to get some attention, when you red and blue got your update, that ruined our dps further. This was over 2 years ago. What did we get? Not even a word since then.

You have your 2 years, champions get nothing

[Narunthon]

I have your 2 years, champions get nothing

This isn't a competition on which class has been neglected more by SSG. Please dont make it like that. As corny as it sounds we should stand together on this.

[Elmagor]

This isn't a competition on which class has been neglected more by SSG. Please dont make it like that. As corny as it sounds we should stand together on this.

Stand together for what? To make all classes OP damage dealers? As example, I have LM, Captain, Ministrel. All of them can be compared even with Hunter in terms of damage. Never, even when mini was buffed. And why I need damage for them?

[Tatharil]

You have your 2 years, champions get nothing

2 years is the time since we were promised to get at least a look at trapper of foes, some sketch, where it should be, what their plans are....
It is broken since HD launch and got worse and worse. 2 years ago Red and blue changes nerfed the already weak yellow line hard.

So no, it is not only those 2 years. Yellow is at the bottom for many more years, 2 years is the time when we got some nice empty words after a kick in the guts.

[WhifOfDespair]

Stand together for what? To make all classes OP damage dealers? As example, I have LM, Captain, Ministrel. All of them can be compared even with Hunter in terms of damage. Never, even when mini was buffed. And why I need damage for them?

I would hope we should all 'stand together' in the desire that each class is enabled to fulfill it's designed purpose. To "make all classes OP damage dealers" is a straw man.

The primary designed (grouping) purpose of Hunters is to have the top single-target DPS in the game.

The primary designed (grouping) purpose of Champions is to have the top AOE DPS in the game.

Neither of those design goals are achieved with the current state of the game.

Neither requires both being "OP" at what the other does. They are complementary roles.

[DKenny]

And the saddest part of it: Once they will finally do their job and pay attention to hunter dps, yellow hunters will probably be the ones, that will have to pay the price ... again. We were promised to get some attention, when you red and blue got your update, that ruined our dps further. This was over 2 years ago. What did we get? Not even a word since then.

Yes, the "class balance" revamp was a total disaster from a hunter perspective. What they should have done was some quick simply skill damage tweaks to restore the induction-focus skill balance that they broke with U19. Then the rest of the effort could have been put into fixing yellow to finally make it viable. Instead what was done was a horrific revamp of red and blue lines, which completely wrecked blue and left yellow even worse than ever. Red was at least still viable, if a bit of a mess, until later "class balance" work ultimately created OP burg and RK (and to a lesser extent, others). Now not even red line dps is competitive, and hunter has no other utility. Making yellow RK so OP based on so few skills was the ultimate perversion of the effort, as the claim had been that blue hunter was a "one-button rotation" (which was false) and that formed the justification for the mutilation of blue line hunter. Unfortunately I doubt you'll ever get a fix for yellow line hunter. I doubt they're even capable of fixing it even if they wanted to, which they obviously don't.

[Elmagor]

I would hope we should all 'stand together' in the desire that each class is enabled to fulfill it's designed purpose. To "make all classes OP damage dealers" is a straw man.

The primary designed (grouping) purpose of Hunters is to have the top single-target DPS in the game.

The primary designed (grouping) purpose of Champions is to have the top AOE DPS in the game.

Neither of those design goals are achieved with the current state of the game.

Neither requires both being "OP" at what the other does. They are complementary roles.

And now you suddenly understand what different players seen different purpose for different classes. As example, Wardens in top 3 DD right now, BUT many players don't like it, because they want to tank with them. That means if SSG buff their tanking skills they can 1)Create another OP class and broke balance 2)Buff tanking skills, and nerf damage dealing skills, that turn all current wardens who build them for years as DD to enrage. And even if Champions have best in the world AOE DPS, who bring them into instance what don't needs AOE DPS? Main problem what they buff all DPS classes except hunters + buff all group content. Buffing hunters without changing anything else don't fix problem, just delay it into future.

[WhifOfDespair]

And now you suddenly understand what different players seen different purpose for different classes. As example, Wardens in top 3 DD right now, BUT many players don't like it, because they want to tank with them. That means if SSG buff their tanking skills they can 1)Create another OP class and broke balance 2)Buff tanking skills, and nerf damage dealing skills, that turn all current wardens who build them for years as DD to enrage. And even if Champions have best in the world AOE DPS, who bring them into instance what don't needs AOE DPS? Main problem what they buff all DPS classes except hunters + buff all group content. Buffing hunters without changing anything else don't fix problem, just delay it into future.

Excuse me? Aside from the fact that your reply seems to have completely missed the point of my comment, you don't get to tell me what I "suddenly understand" about the different classes. I've been playing this game steadily since 2007, when it first came out.

The game was originally designed with each class having a specific primary role and one or two secondary roles. Both roles have to be adequate such that any class should be of value to a group (whether in primary or secondary role) in group content. If that is not the case, then either the class is broken or the content is broken.

[WhiteWolf21x]

The biggest issue with class balance is simply a lack of manpower. In a perfect world you would have 1 developer per class. SSG has 3 developers (Vastin, Tybur and FriendlyHat. There might be more hiding behind the scenes but I doubt it.) trying to manage 10 classes plus world balance, plus pvmp balance, plus itemization, plus li's, plus virtues and any other in game system. Its 3 people trying to do a 20=30 man job. Things are going to get left behind, abandoned or neglected. Its just the way it is.

That being said I wouldn't be surprised to see hunters get a flat % damage boost band-aid in the near future. Its not ideal but better then nothing.

[Elmagor]

Excuse me? Aside from the fact that your reply seems to have completely missed the point of my comment, you don't get to tell me what I "suddenly understand" about the different classes. I've been playing this game steadily since 2007, when it first came out.

The game was originally designed with each class having a specific primary role and one or two secondary roles. Both roles have to be adequate such that any class should be of value to a group (whether in primary or secondary role) in group content. If that is not the case, then either the class is broken or the content is broken.

Ok, what are two secondary roles for Hunter in raid content? He can buff team? No. He can debuff enemy? No. He can control? No. He can heal? No. He can deal AoE? No. Primary role for hunter is damage dealer and he still damage dealer. He damage more when half of classes in the game. I agree what his damage not in top 3, but if you talking about different roles and different classes, with your logic hunter mechanic was broken since 2007, because he don't have any secondary roles in all. And even if you buff his damage don't help him fit in any secondary roles in all. And you can't say what this content broken, because other classes don't have such problems as hunter. Funny thing - yesterday players ask me kite Remmorchant T2 1st boss on poison stage, because they don't understand their poistion during fight. Ok. I kite boss twice with yellow captain. For 25 minutes. And they don't deal enough damage. May be we don't have broken classes, may be we don't have broken content, may be players just don't understand how deal enough damage in short period of time?

[Zohal]

Ok, what are two secondary roles for Hunter in raid content? He can buff team? No. He can debuff enemy? No. He can control? No. He can heal? No. He can deal AoE? No. ...

If you consider AoE a secondary role, I think you should consider the ability to do burst damage to adds a secondary role as well. It is not uncommon that you have to kill some add before it reaches a spot/completes an action/something else, and it is a useful ability to be able to switch targets very quickly and deal lots of damage in a short period of time.

[WhifOfDespair]

Ok, what are two secondary roles for Hunter in raid content? He can buff team? No. He can debuff enemy? No. He can control? No. He can heal? No. He can deal AoE? No. Primary role for hunter is damage dealer and he still damage dealer. He damage more when half of classes in the game. I agree what his damage not in top 3, but if you talking about different roles and different classes, with your logic hunter mechanic was broken since 2007, because he don't have any secondary roles in all.

All you are doing is describing how RIGHT NOW at this particular moment in time, a Hunter's primary AND secondary roles are nerfed RIGHT NOW.

AS DESIGNED from the beginning - the secondary group roles for Hunter were supposed to be CC, poison control & travel buff. And there have been several stretches during the last 13 years when those roles have actually been valuable. In the very early days there were nowhere near the number of travel options for other classes - fewer stables ,fewer 'return to' scrolls and almost no run buff items. Also, many of the early content instances such as in the Shadows of Angmar days made poison control a major responsibility of every hunter. You would get yelled at sometimes for doing too much DPS and not paying attention to healing your fellows. And there was a long stretch of time in prior years when the Trapper of Foes line was very, very powerful at CC. During that time it was fun to play TOF both in solo (though slow at killing) and in groups. Playing TOF took a lot of skill & patience but was very rewarding because you could be in control of every situation.

What has happened in recent times is that as end-game has moved up, TOF has lost it's comparative effectiveness relative to what other lines bring (and has fallen farther behind with DPS), the proliferation of travel options has neutralized the Hunter's role as a taxi / run buff and poison is less of a strategic element of recent group content.

What many end-game Hunters on these threads are pointing out is that, if Hunters do not have viable secondary roles, then their primary role (single-target ranged DPS) HAS to be without peer in order for them to be valuable to groups.

Your response makes assertions about what is as if it always was and always will be. Neither is true. This game is constantly evolving and the roles of the classes has changed and will change.

You also make constant disparaging remarks towards the fact that there are multiple threads by end-game Hunter players pointing out the problems they are facing due to the current situation. This despite the fact that you are admittedly someone who does not have even remotely close to an end-game Hunter toon. I have a suggestion for you: Don't read them. Don't comment on them. Otherwise, your remarks are the very definition of trolling.

[Elmagor]

All you are doing is describing how RIGHT NOW at this particular moment in time, a Hunter's primary AND secondary roles are nerfed RIGHT NOW.

AS DESIGNED from the beginning - the secondary group roles for Hunter were supposed to be CC, poison control & travel buff. And there have been several stretches during the last 13 years when those roles have actually been valuable. In the very early days there were nowhere near the number of travel options for other classes - fewer stables ,fewer 'return to' scrolls and almost no run buff items. Also, many of the early content instances such as in the Shadows of Angmar days made poison control a major responsibility of every hunter. You would get yelled at sometimes for doing too much DPS and not paying attention to healing your fellows. And there was a long stretch of time in prior years when the Trapper of Foes line was very, very powerful at CC. During that time it was fun to play TOF both in solo (though slow at killing) and in groups. Playing TOF took a lot of skill & patience but was very rewarding because you could be in control of every situation.

What has happened in recent times is that as end-game has moved up, TOF has lost it's comparative effectiveness relative to what other lines bring (and has fallen farther behind with DPS), the proliferation of travel options has neutralized the Hunter's role as a taxi / run buff and poison is less of a strategic element of recent group content.

What many end-game Hunters on these threads are pointing out is that, if Hunters do not have viable secondary roles, then their primary role (single-target ranged DPS) HAS to be without peer in order for them to be valuable to groups.

Your response makes assertions about what is as if it always was and always will be. Neither is true. This game is constantly evolving and the roles of the classes has changed and will change.

You also make constant disparaging remarks towards the fact that there are multiple threads by end-game Hunter players pointing out the problems they are facing due to the current situation. This despite the fact that you are admittedly someone who does not have even remotely close to an end-game Hunter toon. I have a suggestion for you: Don't read them. Don't comment on them. Otherwise, your remarks are the very definition of trolling.

You don't provide any information about how SSG can fix situation right now. Even when you agree what hunters secondary role wasn't such important for years, you still keep attacking and insulting me just because I dare to say what hunters not such important, and because I dare to don't have hunter with 130 level. Yes, many players use hunters as taxi. Can you blame them? No. You say what roles of the classes changes since ToA days, in same time you keep talking about how hunters able to do important things in the past. So you can agree what SSG don't evolve hunter roles for years? Of course. Why blame me? Blame SSG. You don't need to be hunter to tell hard truth about hunters. If you don't like that truth, why insulting me? What to you want to do with that? Remove poison removing skills from other classes to make hunter important again? Remove 30+ faction based teleporting skills from other players?

[WhifOfDespair]

You don't provide any information about how SSG can fix situation right now. Even when you agree what hunters secondary role wasn't such important for years, you still keep attacking and insulting me just because I dare to say what hunters not such important, and because I dare to don't have hunter with 130 level. Yes, many players use hunters as taxi. Can you blame them? No. You say what roles of the classes changes since ToA days, in same time you keep talking about how hunters able to do important things in the past. So you can agree what SSG don't evolve hunter roles for years? Of course. Why blame me? Blame SSG. You don't need to be hunter to tell hard truth about hunters. If you don't like that truth, why insulting me? What to you want to do with that? Remove poison removing skills from other classes to make hunter important again? Remove 30+ faction based teleporting skills from other players?

1) It is not the point of this thread of comments to suggest fixes. My initial reply to you was simply to point out your straw man assertion that folks were asking SSG to "make all classes OP damage dealers".
2) I don't at all agree "what(sic) hunters secondary role wasn't such important for years".
3) I am not attacking or insulting you. I'm pointing out that YOU keep attacking and insulting others, allegedly in some sort of reaction to the prevalence of threads on a topic that you do not like. I'm advising you that if that is your reaction to those threads to simply not read and respond to those topics. That you continue to do so is trollish behavior.
4) I am not blaming you (for the state of hunters in this game).
5) You are not telling "hard truth about hunters". You are repeating misrepresentations and burning down straw men. Again, trollish behavior.

[KJEowyn]

Have to say as a hunter returning from hiatus, (Did the Throne T2 grind, but then had some RL stuff that took me away from a bit,) I'm just trying to enjoy questing in the new areas (which I like,) and am somewhat dreading hitting lvl cap given the current state of end-game hunters. Judging from the number of posts I see in chat for raids that explicitly exclude hunters, I'm not sure how much access I'll have on my hunter to much of that content.

Even when hunters were (briefly) top tier single target dps, RKS were still included in raids because of their secondary utility. But the reverse doesn't seem true when RKS hold top DPS, because hunters don't have any useful secondary utility to offer currently. Either hunters need to have their DPS brought back up to make us competitive for raid spots, or we need to be given some kind of secondary utility that makes us useful, even if our dps isn't as high as other classes.

[Enzolas]

You don't provide any information about how SSG can fix situation right now. Even when you agree what hunters secondary role wasn't such important for years, you still keep attacking and insulting me just because I dare to say what hunters not such important, and because I dare to don't have hunter with 130 level. Yes, many players use hunters as taxi. Can you blame them? No. You say what roles of the classes changes since ToA days, in same time you keep talking about how hunters able to do important things in the past. So you can agree what SSG don't evolve hunter roles for years? Of course. Why blame me? Blame SSG. You don't need to be hunter to tell hard truth about hunters. If you don't like that truth, why insulting me? What to you want to do with that? Remove poison removing skills from other classes to make hunter important again? Remove 30+ faction based teleporting skills from other players?

Because you came to the hunters section without a level 130 hunter and tell them (the hunters) that they have no problems.

[Elmagor]

Because you came to the hunters section without a level 130 hunter and tell them (the hunters) that they have no problems.

I never say what they don't have problems. They have problems, of course, and you don't need to have 130 level to find out that. I don't see how SSG can fix that problem.

[Brolad]

I never say what they don't have problems. They have problems, of course, and you don't need to have 130 level to find out that. I don't see how SSG can fix that problem.

The currently most obvious pressing problem is bad DPS compared to other DPS classes and bad group utility compared to other DPS classes. That can be addressed by increasing hunter DPS (sorry but I considered this one very easy to see) and/or adding some group utility via, for example, more impactful debuffs that help others' DPS (also rather obvious).