Champ Red Line DPS rotation

[Tullkas]

Hi, I'd like to work on my champs ST dps rotation and LIs, what are some sample rotations and which skills are used with 2handers , which skills for dual wield in ST rotation, and which legacies on those LIs. With proper rotation n LI swapping what are good 3min parses to shoot for?
Thanks All

[Aeviternus]

I'd say any 140k+ parse is good. Any parse above 130k (but below 140k) can just be bad RNG. Anything below that is to be attributed to an unoptimised "rotation". I use that word reluctantly, because I don't think you can easily script a Champ rotation. The fervour generation from crits dictates whether or not you can use certain skills. You need to prioritise abilities in the correct order, while mixing in Wild Attack to maintain the critical chance buff, when possible. The skill priority that I follow is: 4-5 stacks Remorseless > Dev Strike > Ferocious > Brutal > BW > 1-3 stacks Remorseless. Then you mix in Swift Strike when possible, and Wild Attack when everything else in on cooldown.
(Some people will claim it's optimal to use Blade Wall with legacies and traits in a Single Target rotation. I have found no evidence for this.) Edit: I made this comment in error, it indeed better to use BW, when utilising all the associated legacies/traits. When testing this before, I forgot to include the AoE damage legacy.
Dual wield: Dev Strike, Remorseless Strike, Wild Attack, BW. Rest with two-hander.

LIs (updated with BW legacies):

[Gertes]

Some people will claim it's optimal to use Blade Wall with legacies and traits in a Single Target rotation. I have found no evidence for this.
Dual wield: Dev Strike, Remorseless Strike, Wild Attack. Rest with two-hander.

Well its very simple, blade wall deals more dmg then swift strike or wild attack.

[Aeviternus]

Well its very simple, blade wall deals more dmg then swift strike or wild attack.

Firstly, you can't swap Swift Strike for Wild Attack. Swift Strike is something you should be able to mix in without delaying anything else. So the comparison is actually Wild Attack vs. Blade Wall. I will not even take into consideration that Wild Attack applies a crit chance buff on crits, and builds stack of Emboldened Blade(s). Just looking at the raw damage:



28000 + 35400 > 37000+23200. Granted, I'm currently not traited for 10% more Blade Skills damage. However, Strike skills have a higher critical chance compared to Blade Skills, which makes Wild Attack generally do more damage. Combined with the crit buff and Emboldened Blade(s) stacks, it is clearly the superior choice.

Edit: Accounting for the AoE damage legacy as well, I think Blade Wall will indeed do more raw damage than Wild Attack, but it still won't come with the added benefit of crit chance and EB stacks.

[Gertes]

This is how it looks on my setup.
Also keep in mind that deep strikes hit more often, when you use non strike skills.

[Aeviternus]

This is how it looks on my setup.
Also keep in mind that deep strikes hit more often, when you use non strike skills.

It's a fair consideration to make, I'll try to optimise my build around it and try again. I tried it before and did not find it to be an increase, but I was missing the AoE damage legacy.

I would still say looking at the numbers alone, it's inconclusive, due to differences in crit chance/crit mag and the crit chance buff from WA and EB stacks.

[Ethrildar]

Blade Wall is much harder hitting, there are several supporting legacies and traits and it hits 5-10 targets...

[flirtswithmediocrity]

I'd say any 140k+ parse is good. Any parse above 130k can just be bad RNG. Anything below that is to be attributed to an unoptimised "rotation". I use that word reluctantly, because I don't think you can easily script a Champ rotation. The fervour generation from crits dictates whether or not you can use certain skills. You need to prioritise abilities in the correct order, while mixing in Wild Attack to maintain the critical chance buff, when possible. The skill priority that I follow is: 4-5 stacks Remorseless > Dev Strike > Ferocious > Brutal > 1-3 stacks Remorseless. Then you mix in Swift Strike when possible, and Wild Attack when everything else in on cooldown.
Some people will claim it's optimal to use Blade Wall with legacies and traits in a Single Target rotation. I have found no evidence for this.
Dual wield: Dev Strike, Remorseless Strike, Wild Attack. Rest with two-hander.

LIs:

curious. for the 140k, that # is assuming

capped crit
capped mastery
shelob raid red set
token
ithilharn roll
veteran's strength
scroll of minas ithil guard

?

cheers. swfen@arkenstone

[Aeviternus]

I have only done a few tries, half of them spoiled by lag, the other half could be lucky RNG, but it does seem that incorporating BW into a ST rotation is indeed a DPS increase. I'll update my original post with that information.

curious. for the 140k, that # is assuming

capped crit
capped mastery
shelob raid red set
token
ithilharn roll
veteran's strength
scroll of minas ithil guard

I don't use the Scroll of Minas Ithil Guard/Ithilharn Rolls, seems like a waste of resources. The rest, yes. And I've capped my mastery without scrolls, because I'm lazy, so I don't use scrolls (also helps when you die and get ressed and don't have scrolls).

[Softello]

Yeah, would love to see real #'s people are getting, without any buffs at all. Just using all skill and CD. I have a dwarf and I'm only getting 115k-125k. Almost most geared with T1 raid stuff. Not sure if the gap is that big from men, elves and High Elves.

[Aeviternus]

Yeah, would love to see real #'s people are getting, without any buffs at all. Just using all skill and CD. I have a dwarf and I'm only getting 115k-125k. Almost most geared with T1 raid stuff. Not sure if the gap is that big from men, elves and High Elves.

I figured the 4m30 parse was a little suspicious, so I included the Dummy's chat line. I don't know why it kept me in combat for that long. If you divide the damage by 180, you will get the actual DPS number. This is the only parse I did that didn't lag out at one point or another, so I would say good RNG results in upwards of 145k DPS. I only used a Hope token in this parse (testing BW on ST).

[Gothrir]

Yeah, would love to see real #'s people are getting, without any buffs at all. Just using all skill and CD. I have a dwarf and I'm only getting 115k-125k. Almost most geared with T1 raid stuff. Not sure if the gap is that big from men, elves and High Elves.

On dwarf champ I'm getting similar numbers - consistently 115-125k depending on lag and RNG, with some lucky 130-132s. Wish they finally fix the slow animations. Using blade wall too - 5 points in blade skills dmg and blade wall's own trait from yellow + AoE legacy and Blade Wall's legacy.

[Brinuw]

I know my rotation isnt optimized for every single skill and could probably be tweaked further but for me my rotation is as such:

(dw) Wild Attack, Blade Wall, (2h) Brutal Strike, Swift Blade, (dw) Devastating Strike, (2h) Ferocious Strike, Battle Frenzy, (dw) Remorseless Strike
Then for the next cycle:
(dw) Wild Attack, Blade Wall, (2h) Brutal Strike, Swift Blade, (dw) Remorseless Strike

and i continue alternating those two. once Merciful Strike becomes available it becomes:
(dw) Wild Attack, Blade Wall, (2h) Brutal Strike, Swift Blade, (dw) Devastating Strike, (2h) Ferocious Strike, Battle Frenzy, Merciful Strike
then I try to add a Remorseless between Wild Attach and Blade wall but I'm thinking that just ignoring Merciful Strike all together might be a better option.

As I said, its not the most optimized rotation, but its something that I can replicate indefinitely while pulling decent numbers (100k training dummy, hope/scroll/food).

[Schaijian]

Yeah, would love to see real #'s people are getting, without any buffs at all. Just using all skill and CD. I have a dwarf and I'm only getting 115k-125k. Almost most geared with T1 raid stuff. Not sure if the gap is that big from men, elves and High Elves.

Do only dwarfs have slower animations? On the progression discord some people claimed that elves also suffer from that problem. Would be nice to know as I am playing a male elves champion and can't reach those 140k parses even with "rotations" quite similar to those mentioned here.

[Aeviternus]

Do only dwarfs have slower animations? On the progression discord some people claimed that elves also suffer from that problem. Would be nice to know as I am playing a male elves champion and can't reach those 140k parses even with "rotations" quite similar to those mentioned here.

I would suggest you make a rough comparison of how many hits you landed with each skill, and compare to the parse that I posted. See if there is a glaring difference.

[Schaijian]

I would suggest you make a rough comparison of how many hits you landed with each skill, and compare to the parse that I posted. See if there is a glaring difference.

I can't do this at the moment, will do so later, but first difference I see is the attacks per second. You did 620 attacks during the 180s parse. That's 3.44 APS whereas I only have around 3 APS (2.9-3.1 depending on laggs). This could either be due to a non optimized use of skills (which I will hopefully see in my skill breakdown) or it really is from slower animations.

[Gertes]

I can't do this at the moment, will do so later, but first difference I see is the attacks per second. You did 620 attacks during the 180s parse. That's 3.44 APS whereas I only have around 3 APS (2.9-3.1 depending on laggs). This could either be due to a non optimized use of skills (which I will hopefully see in my skill breakdown) or it really is from slower animations.

I also have between 3-3.4 on my elf, there a quite some factors like mele attacks or deep strikes, that distort the real aps.
Also, he has 3 reflects dont know if they come from storva bracers or Exchange of Blows -> this is also something that gives a wrong picture of a real parse.

[Aeviternus]

I also have between 3-3.4 on my elf, there a quite some factors like mele attacks or deep strikes, that distort the real aps.
Also, he has 3 reflects dont know if they come from storva bracers or Exchange of Blows -> this is also something that gives a wrong picture of a real parse.

That's the Storvagun bracelet, did not get my second Lost City bracelet yet. I don't think 3 hits makes any sort of difference for overall APS, regardless, though. The main difference is from bleed ticks.

[Schaijian]

I also have between 3-3.4 on my elf, there a quite some factors like mele attacks or deep strikes, that distort the real aps.
Also, he has 3 reflects dont know if they come from storva bracers or Exchange of Blows -> this is also something that gives a wrong picture of a real parse.

Isn't your champion a high elf?

[flirtswithmediocrity]

I can't do this at the moment, will do so later, but first difference I see is the attacks per second. You did 620 attacks during the 180s parse. That's 3.44 APS whereas I only have around 3 APS (2.9-3.1 depending on laggs). This could either be due to a non optimized use of skills (which I will hopefully see in my skill breakdown) or it really is from slower animations.

First off, thanks to Feailuve for showing whats possible and sharing some details. It's fun to know what's possible and narrow down how we can improve. As an elf my attack per second is also at 3.0. If you watch the following youtube videos you will see similar attacks per second, although these videos are man champs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQsxt7pRDNk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tF5Wndh_YXE

what I found most interesting was the wild attack usage. 26 strikes which means 13 wild attack's. Since wild attack grants 10 seconds of +5% crit that would mean 130 seconds for crit benefit out of 180 seconds, but the crit rate is still quite high at 44.5%


swfen@arkenstone

[Aeviternus]

First off, thanks to Feailuve for showing whats possible and sharing some details. It's fun to know what's possible and narrow down how we can improve. As an elf my attack per second is also at 3.0. If you watch the following youtube videos you will see similar attacks per second, although these videos are man champs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQsxt7pRDNk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tF5Wndh_YXE

what I found most interesting was the wild attack usage. 26 strikes which means 13 wild attack's. Since wild attack grants 10 seconds of +5% crit that would mean 130 seconds for crit benefit out of 180 seconds, but the crit rate is still quite high at 44.5%


swfen@arkenstone

I don't think APS is a proper way to assess the differences in playstyle/rotation. It depends on little such things as unlucky crits (i.e. more bleed ticks), and how often you are wielding your two-hander inbetween skills for auto attacks. The latter isn't something that's actually worth worrying about to increase your DPS, but I know for a fact that my "rest mode" (i.e. time inbetween skills) is to be using dual wield. Perhaps this is different for others, which might lead to a disparity in auto attack count.

That's why I suggested to look at the number of hits with particular skills, rather than APS.

[Gunhard]

Use of bw became good in st rotation after last patch most probably, coz was testing it couple months before on br and there was barely any difference to use it instead of wa.

[flirtswithmediocrity]

I don't think APS is a proper way to assess the differences in playstyle/rotation. It depends on little such things as unlucky crits (i.e. more bleed ticks), and how often you are wielding your two-hander inbetween skills for auto attacks. The latter isn't something that's actually worth worrying about to increase your DPS, but I know for a fact that my "rest mode" (i.e. time inbetween skills) is to be using dual wield. Perhaps this is different for others, which might lead to a disparity in auto attack count.

That's why I suggested to look at the number of hits with particular skills, rather than APS.

true. If one counts the hits from skills that matter ( Remorseless, Brutal, Ferocious, Wild Attack, Swift Strike, Blade Wall, Devastating ), the total in the OP's parse above is 326.

After 20+ 3minute dummy parses I am consistently between 280-290 hits for the skills listed above, 326 is a 14% increase, I'm sure some of that is skill difference, but 14% is quite a bit. Are there are male elf champs out there who can accomplish 305+ hits for the skills listed above in a 3min dummy parse?

[Aeviternus]

true. If one counts the hits from skills that matter ( Remorseless, Brutal, Ferocious, Wild Attack, Swift Strike, Blade Wall, Devastating ), the total in the OP's parse above is 326.

After 20+ 3minute dummy parses I am consistently between 280-290 hits for the skills listed above, 326 is a 14% increase, I'm sure some of that is skill difference, but 14% is quite a bit. Are there are male elf champs out there who can accomplish 305+ hits for the skills listed above in a 3min dummy parse?

I just uploaded this so that you can compare your rotation with it, if you wish. And, if you were wondering, this parse resulted in 135k DPS, with no buffs whatsoever.



PS. I actually think I messed up a few times towards the end. But it should at least give you a general impression of what the rotation should look like. I don't claim mine is perfect, but it seems to yield good results.

[Gunhard]

tAfter 20+ 3minute dummy parses I am consistently between 280-290 hits for the skills listed above, 326 is a 14% increase, I'm sure some of that is skill difference, but 14% is quite a bit. Are there are male elf champs out there who can accomplish 305+ hits for the skills listed above in a 3min dummy parse?

He probably use 2 pieces from anvil set with -10% attack duration. Typical lotro gear progression - when you hit rating caps on major stats for your role you use set bonus gear from previous caps. For some classes like lm you dont even care about current cap gear coz of set bonuses being too good.

To say something about animation bug its most likely the same person should test different races, coz since no gcd on skills like in wow your rotation may vary a lot. Saying this im curious if dwarf and stout axes have slower animation than other races. Maybe gonna try it on next br open.