SSG needs to see this now

[Saruman_Of_Numbers]

I was going to comment that RP is hardly limited to so-called "boomers," but you might not consider my years of experience (even current) relevant. I hope you do; I will freely acknowledge your PvP experience is more relevant than mine. There are a number of large, very active RP groups that include a grand mix of young and old--even teens and kids.

As I mentioned in another post, the only reason I spoke up negatively in this thread is because of the blatant mischaracterization of non-PvP players in general. Otherwise, I support the idea of updating PvP to make it a better experience for PvMPers.

Some of the non-PvP players who stick their noses into PvMP do so out of fear that the main game will be altered to cater to PvP. Not all of the fears are without merit; the notion that PvP players don't stick their noses in other players' areas is historically untrue. Calls for open world PvP and changes to game systems and skills that could adversely affect PvE have appeared on these forums periodically. Not all the good or bad has been one-sided, and both sides overreact and take shots that are unnecessary and counterproductive. It's too bad. If the various groups would support each other, we might all get a better game out of it.

If an individual takes a shot at you, it is logical that you might respond to that individual accordingly. But it is no more reasonable for you to disparage entire groups of players over what a relative few have said than it is for others to disparage all PvPers because of what a relative few have said.

Clearly you misread my original comment when I said that roleplaying boomers are the main source of the calls for PVMP to be shut down. Not roleplaying youngins, not roleplaying groups of people... specifically the old and angry boomer roleplayers, who are specifically at odds with the overwhelmingly young PVMP crowd.

Also: The calls for open world PVP have always been mentioned as being a separate server or system from the main PVE game. The only people who mischaracterize it as something directly impacting PVE are the same boomers calling for PVMP to be shut down. PVPer's would want nothing more than for PVP to go off and be its own thing... Boomers want PVP to cease existing simply because its fun they can't have.

These boomers, for example, complained ceaselessly on Bombadil that "mean PVPers are killing us while we are deeding" on a server specifically designed to be an open world PVP server. They will never leave, they will never stop, they will always shove their noses into everything... the least the PVP'ers can do is mock them for their boomerisms and continue the call for Dev attention to the part of the game that hasn't received any, while the boomer desires of more housing and firework-pooping chicken hats are met with yearly deliveries.

[phaelan2]

Also: The calls for open world PVP have always been mentioned as being a separate server or system from the main PVE game.

Maybe recently in your tenure in LOTRO this is true, but over the lifetime of LOTRO certain PvPers have called for open world PvP on the regular servers, often in ways that would make it difficult for players to opt out. People remember that and react based on their prior experiences. Thank you for being one who advocates it being on a separate server or system.

The idea of a PvP server has merit, because it lets players with different playstyles enjoy the game in different ways without stomping on each other (unless, of course, you're on the PvP server or in the 'Moors where you want to stomp on each other ).

[ConsistantRager]

Well, hopefully we get an idea of what the devs intend to work on for the pvp update. Lot of things they could do for balance and quality of moors gameplay. Best three things they could do for gameplay in my opinion would be get rid of back doors, bring back old oc and ec, and get rid of auto flips. Those three changes would get rid of the shuffles we have now and a lot less one shot hugging. Balance will be more intricate to work on but all creep classes need changes.

Can we get a blue name response from whoever will be working on the update on what will the focus of the changes be? Or have a thread started by a blue name on BR forums for a place for suggestions or conversation leading up to the next patch?

Thank you!

[Urundus]

Some of the non-PvP players who stick their noses into PvMP do so out of fear that the main game will be altered to cater to PvP.

Can't really recall any changes in the past few years that have been catered towards, or even with PvMP in mind.
Quite frankly, most class and itemization changes we've got in recent times have been absolutely devastating for PvMP.
Some of the class changes that seemed rather harmless turned out to be extremely strong in a PvMP setting.
E.g. yellow RK stone, champ sprint with LI swap, burg tng/ko and aoe dps, cure abilities, self healing, and so on.

[Elmagor]

Some of the non-PvP players who stick their noses into PvMP do so out of fear that the main game will be altered to cater to PvP. Not all of the fears are without merit; the notion that PvP players don't stick their noses in other players' areas is historically untrue. Calls for open world PvP and changes to game systems and skills that could adversely affect PvE have appeared on these forums periodically. Not all the good or bad has been one-sided, and both sides overreact and take shots that are unnecessary and counterproductive. It's too bad. If the various groups would support each other, we might all get a better game out of it.

I spend 8 years in MMO with open PvP, in one of top PvP guilds, and I can say that: Lotro wasn't ready to have any PvP outside of few locations. Game don't suppose to have PvP, locations wasn't ready for that, game mechanic wasn't ready for that, and both freep and creep classes wasn't ready for that. It's pure miracle what PvP in Lotro still exists in our days. I can't imagine people who have a lot of PvP experience wasting their time and money for PvP in Lotro, and based on whole update mechanic, it was unbalanced in the past, and be more unbalanced in the future. Better close Ettenmoors and create it again from fresh start when fixing that mess, even if it takes years.

[phaelan2]

Can't really recall any changes in the past few years that have been catered towards, or even with PvMP in mind.
Quite frankly, most class and itemization changes we've got in recent times have been absolutely devastating for PvMP.
Some of the class changes that seemed rather harmless turned out to be extremely strong in a PvMP setting.
E.g. yellow RK stone, champ sprint with LI swap, burg tng/ko and aoe dps, cure abilities, self healing, and so on.

Agreed, there have not been changes specifically catering to PvMP. My comments were about past calls for such changes that could affect non-PvP as well--which thankfully didn't happen. It was just to explain why some people are gun shy when they see these threads.

You have identified a problem for PvMP in that changes made for the game in general did not take the effects on PvMP into account.

Back when I was an XML analyst/architect, one of my responsibilities as to assess the impact of schema or data model changes on all datasets and/or products that used that XML data. A single change could have ripple effects on both in-house products and external users of our data. Things will fall through the cracks on occasion, but steps should be taken to identify and try to alleviate potential issues before changes are rolled out.

[Rimenuir]

. But your comment is just as out of line. Gross mischaracterization of others is not a good way to influence people to support your efforts to improve the PvP experience.

I don't really think its out of line; it might be a little rude but not out of line. The biggest thing I don't understand about the LOTRO community is that players who have no experience in a certain field like raiding, pvp, or class balance try to make their point heard about these things. There's literal unbalance in PvP right now and players that don't pvp are saying it's fine. How the hell do they know that? They take away from actual PvPers because the SSG devs see CasualPlayer682 who loves all the festival content and gives great feedback about quests say its fine because they've known them to be a "trusted" view.

The biggest thing Dreads basically saying here is stay in your lane. For the most part a lot of PvPers stay out of the festival and cosmetic threads because we don't care about it. If you don't care about PvP, why come into the thread and make your point heard?

[Xerxes2007]

Well, hopefully we get an idea of what the devs intend to work on for the pvp update. Lot of things they could do for balance and quality of moors gameplay. Best three things they could do for gameplay in my opinion would be get rid of back doors, bring back old oc and ec, and get rid of auto flips. Those three changes would get rid of the shuffles we have now and a lot less one shot hugging

These are huge and would change the nature of the current game, which really needs changing. And then don't ever change it again, despite complaints. But in order for this to work, you also have to buff NPC's or the keeps just become zerg traps. Nice call on autoflips too, we haven't mentioned that before, but it's a big problem. SSG doesn't understand, but on servers with lower populations or nearly extinct populations, autoflips make freeps and creeps play guessing games on where the action is. They generally don't guess for long and just quit playing. Closing the failed Osgilliath would help too.

[BlitzKr1eg]

Ofc PVP isn't a big moneymaker for SSG... But it's kinda obvious isn't', I don't think many businesses except to make any money on a product that they don't invest in.

It's not like PVE side would make them any money if you had to do 10 year old content...

[Saruman_Of_Numbers]

Agreed, there have not been changes specifically catering to PvMP. My comments were about past calls for such changes that could affect non-PvP as well--which thankfully didn't happen. It was just to explain why some people are gun shy when they see these threads.

You have identified a problem for PvMP in that changes made for the game in general did not take the effects on PvMP into account.

Back when I was an XML analyst/architect, one of my responsibilities as to assess the impact of schema or data model changes on all datasets and/or products that used that XML data. A single change could have ripple effects on both in-house products and external users of our data. Things will fall through the cracks on occasion, but steps should be taken to identify and try to alleviate potential issues before changes are rolled out.

we have not identified the problem just now, the problem was identified and communicated 6 years ago, by multiple people, by the player council, by 10,000 forum posts, by 100 different analysis threads.

SSG simply chooses to ignore the simple solutions presented and refuses to put even 1% of their effort into the PVMP system.. instead they choose to waste it on useless failed gimmicks like Bombadil and on making chicken hats that shoot fireworks out their butt to appease the roleplaying cash cows.

This isn't a "Fall through the cracks"

This is "casually step on the fingers of the guy hanging onto the cliff as he screams at you to stop" but for 6 years.... and now we're down to the last finger.

[phaelan2]

I don't really think its out of line; it might be a little rude but not out of line. The biggest thing I don't understand about the LOTRO community is that players who have no experience in a certain field like raiding, pvp, or class balance try to make their point heard about these things. There's literal unbalance in PvP right now and players that don't pvp are saying it's fine. How the hell do they know that? They take away from actual PvPers because the SSG devs see CasualPlayer682 who loves all the festival content and gives great feedback about quests say its fine because they've known them to be a "trusted" view.

The biggest thing Dreads basically saying here is stay in your lane. For the most part a lot of PvPers stay out of the festival and cosmetic threads because we don't care about it. If you don't care about PvP, why come into the thread and make your point heard?

I explained why I popped into the thread, and the reasoning still stands--the comments I responded to were rude, inaccurate, and out of line. I don't like it when non-pvpers rag on pvpers and vice versa. Silly comments invite a response, and the forum is an open road. If he had stuck to the facts without hyperbole, I wouldn't have said a thing.

I was reading the thread because I'm interested in improving the game for everyone and wanted to get a better understanding of what's up with PvMP--which I have participated in (on Creep characters). Nothing I personally said indicates PvP is okay as it stands, because I know it's not.

[phaelan2]

we have not identified the problem just now, the problem was identified and communicated 6 years ago, by multiple people, by the player council, by 10,000 forum posts, by 100 different analysis threads.

SSG simply chooses to ignore the simple solutions presented and refuses to put even 1% of their effort into the PVMP system.. instead they choose to waste it on useless failed gimmicks like Bombadil and on making chicken hats that shoot fireworks out their butt to appease the roleplaying cash cows.

This isn't a "Fall through the cracks"

This is "casually step on the fingers of the guy hanging onto the cliff as he screams at you to stop" but for 6 years.... and now we're down to the last finger.

You missed the point. Turn off combat mode for a moment, and you will see I'm agreeing with you here.

You focused on the possible caveat (general to any development, not just LOTRO), not the whole statement. The point is, it does not appear that proper impact analysis was done when changes were made that affected PvMP. Now PvMP is suffering for it.

[Saruman_Of_Numbers]

You missed the point. Turn off combat mode for a moment, and you will see I'm agreeing with you here.

You focused on the possible caveat (general to any development, not just LOTRO), not the whole statement. The point is, it does not appear that proper impact analysis was done when changes were made that affected PvMP. Now PvMP is suffering for it.

Bold of you to assume that any impact analysis was done at all other than "PUSH IT TO LIVE"

I understand you're basically here to run defense for the dev team on an inexcusable half-decade long lapse in attention, but playing the wording game to try and deflect blame really just infuriates more people because its fundamentally dishonest

What people really want is a flat out admission of the simple truth: PVMP has become unlivable due to the actions of the dev team that knowingly and in full awareness neglected the development of a part of the game with the most passionate and tight knit community simply because they thought they could get away with it while courting their target demographic of cashcow roleplayers.

Cordovan won't admit it, you won't admit it, but that's what is happening here. Barring some actual development and modernization of PVMP, it will continued to be assumed to be the case by a large swathe of the PVMP community. There is no "combat mode", there is merely the honest and the dishonest.

[phaelan2]

Bold of you to assume that any impact analysis was done at all other than "PUSH IT TO LIVE"

I understand you're basically here to run defense for the dev team on an inexcusable half-decade long lapse in attention, but playing the wording game to try and deflect blame really just infuriates more people because its fundamentally dishonest

What people really want is a flat out admission of the simple truth: PVMP has become unlivable due to the actions of the dev team that knowingly and in full awareness neglected the development of a part of the game with the most passionate and tight knit community simply because they thought they could get away with it while courting their target demographic of cashcow roleplayers.

Cordovan won't admit it, you won't admit it, but that's what is happening here. Barring some actual development and modernization of PVMP, it will continued to be assumed to be the case by a large swathe of the PVMP community. There is no "combat mode", there is merely the honest and the dishonest.

Holy cow! Can you stop looking for issues with every comment? I didn't assume anything, I'm not defending the devs in this case--I AGREED WITH YOU! I suppose I could have left out the word "proper," but I doubt it would have made a difference.

See, I'll support the devs when I think they deserve it, and I'll raise issues with them the same way. It's not an all or nothing thing for me. Critical thinking allows for both.

[sapienze]

Maybe recently in your tenure in LOTRO this is true, but over the lifetime of LOTRO certain PvPers have called for open world PvP on the regular servers, often in ways that would make it difficult for players to opt out.

This bold above is far more false than true. I'd bet you can't find one serious thread on the topic that didn't include a suggested toggle opt out for PvMP.

Segregating players by way of separate PvP servers is an ill thought solution. The latest pseudo attempt wasn't even an honest attempt. The motive didn't have PvMP in mind or even as a secondary purpose. What it did do was previously predicted and confirmed by the time of its ending date. One unintended by product turned out to be a way to steal players names on original servers from character transfers. The whole thing was worthy of a facepalm.

[phaelan2]

This bold above is far more false than true. I'd bet you can't find one serious thread on the topic that didn't include a suggested toggle opt out for PvMP.

Segregating players by way of separate PvP servers is an ill thought solution. The latest pseudo attempt wasn't even an honest attempt. The motive didn't have PvMP in mind or even as a secondary purpose. What it did do was previously predicted and confirmed by the time of its ending date. One unintended by product turned out to be a way to steal players names on original servers from character transfers. The whole thing was worthy of a facepalm.

Most PvMPers were fine with their suggestions; a few seemed to think the only way to grow PvP was to coerce others to participate by hook or by crook. Those are the ones some players remember. The majority of the PvP community I've interacted with over the years are fine people. When I ran my Creeps, it was great to get advice and guidance along the way.

The whole server transfer/name loss mess can certainly be added to the list of facepalmable moments. Since Bombadil was a temporary server, that issue should have been foreseen and accounted for (impact analysis).

SSG (and Turbine before them) did and do a lot of things very, very well. But when they miss the mark, bad things happen.

[Saruman_Of_Numbers]

SSG (and Turbine before them) did and do a lot of things very, very well. But when they miss the mark, bad things happen.

"Stalin did a lot of things very very well... He defeated and enemy nation led the allies to victory! his glorious visage was plastered over ever wall and his name on ever street sign."

"But when he missed the mark, bad things happened"

[Narthalion]

The whole server transfer/name loss mess can certainly be added to the list of facepalmable moments. Since Bombadil was a temporary server, that issue should have been foreseen and accounted for (impact analysis).

You're absolutely right...it should have been foreseen. Sometimes it is mystifying why SSG does NOT see possible problems in advance...especially when so many of their customers DO see them (and try to point them out before-hand).

[phaelan2]

"Stalin did a lot of things very very well... He defeated and enemy nation led the allies to victory! his glorious visage was plastered over ever wall and his name on ever street sign."

"But when he missed the mark, bad things happened"

Good grief.

Maybe I can make things more relatable:

PvMP broken. Needs fixed.

Everyone else is angry old chickens with fireworks shooting from boomer butts.

[Narthalion]

Everyone else is angry old chickens with fireworks shooting from boomer butts.

Now THAT would be an interesting Title if we could earn it in-game.

Hang in there.

[Hivestel]

Good grief.

Don't let it get to you mate. We (the PvMP players) are pretty tense since our favorite part of the game has been ignored in updates, excepting the lazy stats fixes here and there. To be honest, I'm more disappointed than mad. Although the dev team has props from me for not shoving micro-transactions into our faces (too hard), there's a wider problem with the gaming industry. I've been told by older players that the devs were interacting with it's community a lot more in the past, and I'm not talking about what we still have, being policed by it in chat and in-game, I mean genuine interaction, having fun with us. I would love it if LOTRO would still be the exception in the industry and not just it's myths being exceptional.
The latest example of giving almost the entire game for free is at least a great thing that the company has done which I witnessed too. Contrary to the lifeless economic laws, milking people brings less money than creating communities. Short-term decisions will necessarily get you bought out by a bigger player, it won't necessarily bring joy to you or the people that trust you with their entertainment. I hope SSG, especially after I assume a raising in revenue after the big handout, can revalue it's behavior lately and AT LEAST communicate like a human interaction, not a business one like it did during the down-times.
I appreciate the fact that although you're not a PvMP player, you advocate for the devs to give it attention.

[Gutterat]

IMHO there's only one certain way we can persuade the developers to improve PVMP. 'SEND THEM TO THE SOFA PITS!!!'

[phaelan2]

Don't let it get to you mate. We (the PvMP players) are pretty tense since our favorite part of the game has been ignored in updates, excepting the lazy stats fixes here and there. To be honest, I'm more disappointed than mad. Although the dev team has props from me for not shoving micro-transactions into our faces (too hard), there's a wider problem with the gaming industry. I've been told by older players that the devs were interacting with it's community a lot more in the past, and I'm not talking about what we still have, being policed by it in chat and in-game, I mean genuine interaction, having fun with us. I would love it if LOTRO would still be the exception in the industry and not just it's myths being exceptional.
The latest example of giving almost the entire game for free is at least a great thing that the company has done which I witnessed too. Contrary to the lifeless economic laws, milking people brings less money than creating communities. Short-term decisions will necessarily get you bought out by a bigger player, it won't necessarily bring joy to you or the people that trust you with their entertainment. I hope SSG, especially after I assume a raising in revenue after the big handout, can revalue it's behavior lately and AT LEAST communicate like a human interaction, not a business one like it did during the down-times.
I appreciate the fact that although you're not a PvMP player, you advocate for the devs to give it attention.

No worries. "Good grief" was an alternative to the unwise wisecracks that came to mind. The latter part of my post was the "wiser" humor.

The dev interaction in the past was more prolific, and they did engage in more fun conversations as well.

That said, my understanding is that SSG was started by tiny dev team (smaller than most people here estimate)--to run two MMOs. Hopefully they have expanded the team since then. LOTRO and DDO would no longer exist if they hadn't taken over the reins, so even with the flaws and frustrations, I am grateful to them for keeping this game alive. Doesn't mean I won't turn up the heat when needed, but I try to take a balanced approach with that context in mind.

I participated in PvMP Creep side for a while; it was an okay change of pace for me. But just because it's not my cup of tea doesn't mean it's not a good brew for you.

[DavidmeetHal]

I don't like it when non-pvpers rag on pvpers and vice versa. .

Same here, I don't like it when the non-pvpers and pvpers rag on each other. No need for it.

[Rimenuir]

Same here, I don't like it when the non-pvpers and pvpers rag on each other. No need for it.

I agree for the most part. But when we have non PvPers come into a thread of YouTube comments section or Discord server and start talking about how PvP is fine as it is or never intended, and come in argumentative, then its acceptable imo. Whether or not the devs wanted PvP in 2007 means nothing now that its been around for 13 years and a monetized portion of the game. At the end of the day, we just want to play our game without feeling like the devs don't care. If you come in and try to state that they shouldn't then I'm sorry, but you're going to be ragged on.