Update 28.2 PvMP Mega Feedback Thread

[Hephburz-2]

Right it was a good decision to have that council / pvp council eliminated as we balked at who was chosen (though not always). Beta is open to whoever has the time and resources between Tuesday to Thursday 5pm est to patch an entire br client by repairing files from scratch. I didn't have the time to get into the first one but I was preparing to go to the second one that never happened. If you go back in the other thread about feedback one of the first people giving feedback on wl was a guy who proclaimed to not have been playing for the last 3 years lol. Others I know enough to know that they either don't or barely log in once per week.

Well, that's not a representative description of BR at all - more to the point, the Devs have more commonly better engaged when BR has been held during the week in comparison to on the weekends. Secondly, from scratch? Do you delete BR after every testing round or something? More importantly, I think the bigger issue with BR is that feedback is rarely listened to.

Hook the forum into the game, why is it on this website where it's disconnected from a player's names anyway? I'm sure I'm not giving anyone news they didn't know that there are players who play day-to-day but for whatever reason won't come here to comment / read the discussion.

Show me one MMO that has a built-in forum into the game. That would require an absolute overhaul of the entire games internal UI - more to the point there would be people who still wouldn't use it anyway because it's not their thing.

So take the current example. There's no way we can reflect the discussion happening in OOCs here. The post is a few people within hours of patching that are pointing out that various stats are at x level. We have not seen T5 raiders who were doing the raid, or 6 man, or seen examples from our Friday and Sunday raid nights (on Ark anyway). We have seen the people with the privilege of logging in during the middle of the day and patching instantaneously. Of those people, we have players who are logging into their creeps to check the changes rather than riding straight out on their freeps.

The majority of long-time Creep players are not also T5 raiders, so?

Of the people playing we have an even smaller subset that within a few hours have given feedback.

It's not hard to instantaneously see how overtuned things are. Vastin openly admitted to overtuning creeps during the Beta, he did say already he was going to dial them back, clearly, not enough.

People have been getting one shot by level scaled hunters for an eternity at this point and we still play.

And people have been calling for creep buffs for an eternity, what is your point here? Simply because the shoe is on the other foot freeps shouldn't complain for a few years?

Why is the fear so enormous that creeps with stats will kill the game when we logged in under the most adverse conditions, sometimes forming groups and not getting a single kill after multiple wipes in the name of keeping the action alive.

Relevance?

In the Helms Deep beta, the developers were in the chat talking to us in-game and asking us questions with +'s next to their names. They can watch us stealthed if need be.

Different time. Bigger company. More money. Have you been living under a rock?

Theorycrafters who don't play have a place but regular players have the largest stake in the game because they play rain or shine and someone's words spoken carelessly can change their quality of life. If you go only by this thread your view of what's happening on the ground would be an apocalyptic nightmare.

I mean clearly, you didn't read the thread at all before commenting considering the OP is one of the longest creep players I know on the forums who always gives solid, backed-up feedback, and he isn't asking for anything unreasonable at all. As far as I can see, you are just unhappy that the day of the update there are already people crying out for nerfs, and you think that it's high-time the freeps suffered for a few years the same way Creep did. Evidently no interest in creating a balanced PvP environment, just spite.

[Kate00]

Again. That's not at all what I said. You're just irrationally freaking out. I just said that if a filer outheals a burglar with constant positional damage advantage (a burg should never get positional for more than a CC timer), with a -50 % incoming healing debuff occasionally slapped onto the target with absolutely zero effort (comfortably outhealing with 3 HoTs, which is pretty much a button pressed every 5 seconds), the heals are obviously overtuned.

Yes, I agree that freep healer, most notably blue RK and yellow bear, survivability is through the roof, but for filers there's an additional issue - there's nothing separating a defiler's "dps" build (yeah, it's not competitive in groups but it can kill many freep classes 1v1) and a defiler's healing. No trait that would make a healing defiler's dps much lower and a "dpsing" defiler's heals much weaker, not even a stance. Imo there should be something.

Just FYI, in the last half a year I've been in freepside Moors for less than 2 hours in total. Please stop making things up, stop putting words into my mouth and stop this whataboutism. It's simply a bit overtuned.

It is absolutely NOT overtuned. 1 healing class shouldnt struggle with 1 dps class. Do you have any idea how long it takes to kill any freep as a defiler or rather how many classes its impossible to kill as a defiler? Hun I main a defiler and you are rank 7 and have probably only played the class for a week. Please dont ask for stuff that defilers dont need because there are literally 1000 more important things to "fix" than defiler healing and dps.

EDIT: you want to fix defilers? How about advocating for flies to actually work?

[Brolad]

Hun I main a defiler and you are rank 7 and have probably only played the class for a week.

That makes it all the more embarassing for you - I mean, you obviously are getting worse results out of playing defiler in comparison to me (hence why you think things aren't overtuned and I think things are overtuned) even though you have way more "experience" with the class and are a higher rank.

[Kate00]

That makes it all the more embarassing for you - I mean, you obviously are getting worse results out of playing defiler in comparison to me (hence why you think things aren't overtuned and I think things are overtuned) even though you have way more "experience" with the class and are a higher rank.

I'm not embarrassed .... I think its funny you believe 1 freep should be able to solo a defiler.

[zaboch]

It is absolutely NOT overtuned. 1 healing class shouldnt struggle with 1 dps class.

So, what would happen if a Freep DPS meets a Defiler then? What's the outcome?

[MuddledMage]

As a Creep who has been around a while, as evidenced by having an R13 BA, R12 DF and Weaver, R11 Warg and Reaver, and R9 WL I would first like to thank Vastin for even attempting to re-work the balance in the Moors considering the state things had reached. IMFAO he did an admirable job.

I have to assume it's tough trying to set things up so a Freep who doesn't raid but has good PvE level gear can venture out past GV and enjoy the experience. There's a huge difference between having an enjoyable challenge and thinking you've entered a Don Quixote nightmare. By the same token we have new Creeps in the Moors who weren't even cannon fodder to fully geared Raid players. If the Freeps don't have Creeps to oppose there won't be a Moors so some balance has to be maintained.

As to the changes made, I've gotten about 12 hours on my BA and like it. Learning a new skill rotation has been a hoot and am already forgetting Snare and SB. It's also wonderful to re-discover skills you haven't used for 5+ years because 3k damage against a charging Champ wasn't memorable.

Last night I took my DF out of Grams and went after a well geared Raid Champ I've fought since being merged over to Crick. Before last night it was a foregone conclusion, but he's still running for GV as far as I know. Today and tonight I intend to go look up and old friend who runs an R15 GDN to renew our acquaintance...hopefully it will be another 15 minute fight like the "old days".

So let's let people enjoy the changes, learn to cope, learn to play our toons like we used to have to do, and enjoy the idea of person-to-person conflict. Then Vastin can worry about tweakng to address issues.

[Kate00]

So, what would happen if a Freep DPS meets a Defiler then? What's the outcome?

They sprint away, they stay in stealth, they df, they call for help, or depending on the class they die.

Kinda the same thing that happens to solo creeps when they meet a healing class.

[zaboch]

They sprint away, they stay in stealth, they df, they call for help, or depending on the class they die.

Kinda the same thing that happens to solo creeps when they meet a healing class.

Except that Defiler can churn out decent DPS numbers, which no healing SPEC Freep class can right now and will more than likely kill a solo Freep.

[Spilo]

There was PVP gear. Wasn't balanced then either.

Ok, and? Does that shut down the entire argument right there?

Yesterday there were 6v6s against T5 geared Freeps, and then we had Freeps who were repeatedly getting nearly full barred- the variance is gear and skill- you can remove one of those from the equation, and until you do, you will always have to balance around Freeps or Creeps being notably underpowered because there will continue to be a significant variance in power level of Freepside. It makes 0 sense for competitive integrity to be compromised in a PvP zone.

[Kate00]

Except that Defiler can churn out decent DPS numbers, which no healing SPEC Freep class can right now and will more than likely kill a solo Freep.

except that isnt true.

[Xerxes2007]

Ok, and? Does that shut down the entire argument right there?

I think it does. There's been at least 4 different attempts at PVP gear over the years. 2008 when they came out with the DOF, they tried again in like 2010 with the same gear but added an integration with LI relics, then in 2012 they tried again with Audacity Gear and in 2015 they tried new Audacity Gear with the Osgilliath rollout. 5th time's the charm? What's the definition of insanity again

Look, this is the dev team we asked them to remove the backdoor shuffle and they change TA only. And you want them touching gear? No thanks.

[zaboch]

except that isnt true.

Okay. What FREEP SPECIALIZATION that's based on healing has enough potential to outdamage a Defiler?

[Newyorc]

Except that Defiler can churn out decent DPS numbers, which no healing SPEC Freep class can right now and will more than likely kill a solo Freep.

Defiler dps is pitiful. The Defiler is a true healing class and the only reason it has any dps at all is for PvE.

One of the issues that most needs addressing has to do with trade-offs. Healers shouldn't be hitting for 50 - 100K. Likewise, dps specs shouldn't be able to self-heal completely or nearly so. Burgs have 2 (or is it 3) very strong heals which is, of course, BS. No class that can do that much burst damage, can stealth, can sprint away, can b/p/e should be able to self-heal to that degree. Wardens are even worse.

Defilers are healers and shouldn't produce large damage numbers and they can't. That's all good. But freep classes are tuned for solo PvE; the Minstrel is a particularly egregious example of healing + damage and being in the Moors doesn't, to my knowledge, disable any of their skill set. (Could be wrong about that.) And it takes 5 - 6 creeps to kill a blue Minstrel. Way, way too powerful. But no creep should be able to solo a blue Minstrel either.

[Daec]

Defilers are healers and shouldn't produce large damage numbers and they can't. That's all good. But freep classes are tuned for solo PvE; the Minstrel is a particularly egregious example of healing + damage and being in the Moors doesn't, to my knowledge, disable any of their skill set. (Could be wrong about that.) And it takes 5 - 6 creeps to kill a blue Minstrel. Way, way too powerful. But no creep should be able to solo a blue Minstrel either.

You do realize being in blue means the minstrel loses almost all of its actual damage skills and being in red the mini loses a massive amount of healing including pretty much all bonuses to its significant inductions? A mini dpsing in blue is laughable and is probably on par with a WL pre-patch. Thats kinda the point people are making, freep healers have to choose.

[Intolerance]

This thread is funny.

Clearly, the Moors are finally balanced perfectly, with no class having excessive mits, morale, DPS, or heals.

Sarcasm, cynicism, or sincerity?

You tell me...

[Dranak123]

Okay. What FREEP SPECIALIZATION that's based on healing has enough potential to outdamage a Defiler?

hello folks. my point at the current time is directed towards freep gear variability. whilst I believe that creep variability is wider with increasing rank than freep rank variability, due to skill unlocks (the most critical of which can be store purchased anyway), I do however also believe that a wider gap exists between freep 'build statting' based on a high variability in gear.
It is highly understandable that comparisons will be made against the best geared freeps who have invested heavily in the main game to gear up or have perhaps opened their wallet and let the moths out.
what that leaves behind is a silent minority (?) of freeps who do not have the best essences, or relics, or virtues, or BiS items, or 95 trait points etc. these players turn up to play and have fun and often find it difficult to plug some of the gaps just mentioned. obviously some are just grind but others are more elusive.
I would suggest therefore that SSG could make some of the craft items needed and relics available to buy for 15,000 commendations each. This would represent a fair commitment of effert to gain such 'bound to account' goodies. It would help to put freeps into a tighter band of potential ability so as to make balance against creeps a less 'foggy' picture to perceive. Furthermore a system of gear purchase and trade-in upgrades could enable players to tier through towards if not the best then fairly high ranked gear with again a significant input of effort required to obtain the 'bound to account' item, which makes our performance band narrower still......and therefore some semblance of balance more achievable with less variable swing from creep to freep.
as you may have guessed I could parrot on all day like this as lots of aggrieved British folks love to make a cup of tea and write a snotty letter to some personage in a position of authority to 'get it off their chest'...….so ill leave it there. I could continue ...but another day perhaps.

[Hephburz-2]

It is absolutely NOT overtuned. 1 healing class shouldnt struggle with 1 dps class. Do you have any idea how long it takes to kill any freep as a defiler or rather how many classes its impossible to kill as a defiler? Hun I main a defiler and you are rank 7 and have probably only played the class for a week. Please dont ask for stuff that defilers dont need because there are literally 1000 more important things to "fix" than defiler healing and dps.

EDIT: you want to fix defilers? How about advocating for flies to actually work?

You have completely misread and misunderstood the point of the post that started this arguement. Allow me to clarify.

A Burglar was attacking a R4 warg. The defiler was healing the Warg. Point 1.
The R4 warg was in glass cannon - i.e. no mits traited. Point 2.
The R4 warg had a -50% incoming healing debuff up 100% of the time. Point 3.
The Burglar maintained positional damage throughout the entire time they were dpsing the warg (+% more damage). Point 4.
The Defiler was happily pressing no more than 3 skills and the warg stayed at full HP without any issue. Point 5.

-

No one, anywhere, said that a Freep should be able to solo a Defiler. In the above situation, the Defiler SHOULD have struggled in keeping a low rank, glass cannon warg alive, with -50% inc heal debuff active 100% of the time. They didn't struggle. That's overtuned. If you cannot see that that is a problem - you equally have no interest in creating a balanced PvMP environment.

[Kate00]

You have completely misread and misunderstood the point of the post that started this arguement. Allow me to clarify.

A Burglar was attacking a R4 warg. The defiler was healing the Warg. Point 1.
The R4 warg was in glass cannon - i.e. no mits traited. Point 2.
The R4 warg had a -50% incoming healing debuff up 100% of the time. Point 3.
The Burglar maintained positional damage throughout the entire time they were dpsing the warg (+% more damage). Point 4.
The Defiler was happily pressing no more than 3 skills and the warg stayed at full HP without any issue. Point 5.

-

No one, anywhere, said that a Freep should be able to solo a Defiler. In the above situation, the Defiler SHOULD have struggled in keeping a low rank, glass cannon warg alive, with -50% inc heal debuff active 100% of the time. They didn't. That's overtuned.

Ok then sure nerf minis, bears, and rks with the defilers ... seems fair. I mean why in the world should 1 healer be able to keep 1 player alive against 1 dps.

[Caanwick]

There was PVP gear. Wasn't balanced then either.

True, there were multiple iterations of PvP gear for Freeps, but Freeps were never locked into using it. Freeps could still use PvE/Instance/Raid gear which precluded any real chance to have balance in PvP. Now if they lock Freeps into new PvP-only gear, they'll be able to balance to the stats on that gear and not have to worry about the next raid's gear throwing things out of whack.

[Hephburz-2]

Ok then sure nerf minis, bears, and rks with the defilers ... seems fair. I mean why in the world should 1 healer be able to keep 1 player alive against 1 dps.

The R4 warg was in glass cannon - i.e. no mits traited. Point 2.
The R4 warg had a -50% incoming healing debuff up 100% of the time. Point 3.
The Burglar maintained positional damage throughout the entire time they were dpsing the warg (+% more damage). Point 4.
The Defiler was happily pressing no more than 3 skills and the warg stayed at full HP without any issue. Point 5.

Still not reading are we?

[Kate00]

The R4 warg was in glass cannon - i.e. no mits traited. Point 2.
The R4 warg had a -50% incoming healing debuff up 100% of the time. Point 3.
The Burglar maintained positional damage throughout the entire time they were dpsing the warg (+% more damage). Point 4.
The Defiler was happily pressing no more than 3 skills and the warg stayed at full HP without any issue. Point 5.

Still not reading are we?

are you still not getting that minis, bears and rks can do the same thing?

[Xerxes2007]

True, there were multiple iterations of PvP gear for Freeps, but Freeps were never locked into using it. Freeps could still use PvE/Instance/Raid gear which precluded any real chance to have balance in PvP. Now if they lock Freeps into new PvP-only gear, they'll be able to balance to the stats on that gear and not have to worry about the next raid's gear throwing things out of whack.

The audacity gear in 2012 and its second "season" I think in 2013 Freeps were locked in. No balance then either. You guys are trying to foist this gear cap on freeps for 1v1 balance, but what you're not understanding is, balance is greater than a damage number. If you "balance" freeps and creeps (which given who we're dealing with, I think is impossible) it'll a) never last as the moors will be left unupdated for the next 5 years after balance is achieved, and b) we'll find other points of imbalance namely numbers and mobility. So now we've achieved damage and healing balance yet Creeps will have double the numbers of the freeps they balanced against and the ability to drop in on them nearly wherever they may be. That doesn't sound very fair.

The only way they're going to achieve "balance" is a completely new pvp system where there's 1v1 arena built around session play and those of you that want to play that way can go do that. The moors are never going to be that.

[Daec]

are you still not getting that minis, bears and rks can do the same thing?

So whats you're saying is a high rank warg who has positional damage the whole time would not be able to kill an undergeared freep while they're standing in blight if a mini was healing them?

I'd like to put this to the test.

[Hephburz-2]

So whats you're saying is a high rank warg who has positional damage the whole time would not be able to kill an undergeared freep while they're standing in blight if a mini was healing them?

I'd like to put this to the test.

And that freep would die. Hands down.

[Hilawolf]

WL still seems underpowered to me. Heals are weak, single target heal is 7% of my morale pool with an induction. Not a fan of the out of group AOE heals, I think it will promote heal tagging. I would rather go back to in group heals and buff them up, it will be difficult to keep someone up when the bubble is down. If the healing stays the same, then I think the debuffs need to be increased. From memory, MR is a 80k tac mit debuff, and the banner of terror and point defense did not seem very affective either. Without PvP gear, this will affect undergeared freeps more. I think a % based debuff would be much better. 20% debuff for MR and 10% debuff for the banner of terror for example. It's been awhile since I played captain, but I think they can increase incoming damage by 65% (banner+oathies+mark). Seems like game play would be much more interesting if the buff/debuffs were more meaningful.