Blue warden

[Cynemna]

Blue line warden needs a fix, we are way far behind guardians, captains even bears.. Wardens needs to be a welcomed tanking class.. Please state your suggestions so may be Devs hears about us

My must meeded suggestion imo is to have our self heals been fixed to be percentage based instead of a fixed numebr.

Please state what your suggestions should be

[Radford67]

Not at end game so not going to venture an opinion on fixes other than the self heal increase would be useful and % seems an easier way to fix.

I play Blue Warden as when I returned to the game [lockdown...] it noted the role as protector and it was a new class [we played when game first opened] so I thought try it out - my old Kin friends returned as well so we started again - with me as tank on a premium [purchased] tank class, others taking main damage or support roles
As we had played in the past and enjoy discovery given the game has had several huge expansions since we played, we did not find out everything before playing the game - we took what was written in the game as, well, accurate.

Anyhow, suffice to say, looking around there is no shortage of veteran expertise in relation to Blue Warden fixes and several threads which seem to have been ignored, but so what it's a forum no reason not to repeat - so I wanted to say Warden fixes in tanking would be something new or returning players, reading the advertised strengths of the warden to inform their purchases, would find helpful, and from my reading of this forum, there are many who played Blue wardens who would appreciate a fix to bring them back to greater usefulness so they can enjoy your game playing these again.

So I agree with the OP and hope others have ideas to bring.

Cheers

[Strider5548]

Blue line warden needs a fix, we are way far behind guardians, captains even bears.. Wardens needs to be a welcomed tanking class.. Please state your suggestions so may be Devs hears about us

My must meeded suggestion imo is to have our self heals been fixed to be percentage based instead of a fixed numebr.

Please state what your suggestions should be

Yes Warden tanking is completely broken, but it's not a secret to anyone. Here are just a few threads highlighting Warden issues:

https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...rable-aa-tanks
https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...ing-Bugs/page4
https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...tigation-bonus
https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...-gain-problems
https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...tion-and-build
https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...oken-as-of-u26
https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...Gambit-Healing
https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...eedback-Thread
https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...nd-suggestions

Here is one I recently posted in the General Forums, feel free to add your thoughts to it:

https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...Warden-Tanking

No class is worse at their primary function than Warden tanks right now. The fact that warden tanks are virtually non-existent for a tanking class is a real problem and honestly a tragedy given how interesting a class the Warden is.

I really wish Vastin and team didn't spend months overbuffing creeps and focused on class balance instead. I love PvP, but we just wasted all this time/resources on a broken system, where we have even less balance now than before. Meanwhile Wardens are a legitimately broken tank class in LOTRO.

One slight bit of hope is that Tybur acknowledged that Wardens are an issue (along with guards/RKs) in a post on the BR forums, but that doesn't mean they are going to work on them, just that they know the class is broke.

[Ethrildar]

I've made countless posts about fixes to the class throughout all trait lines but more specifically blue line the single biggest fixes would be:

1. Passive 20-30% morale increase for Blue-line. Wardens are the squishiest tanks and should have the biggest morale pools.
2. Decrease (improve/speed up) attack duration to match that of Red, so you don't lose muscle memory on gambits.
3. Reduce reliance on continuous spam of self-BPE/Mits buffs to allow more room to fill the DPS-tank niche.
4. Passive blue-line Finesse boost to assist in the above and reduce resists.
5. Make all self heals - including morale-taps and Conviction - percentage based across all lines for future-proofing purposes. Adjust percentages based on the line i.e. Red/Yellow should not have access to heals as significant as Blue.
6. Fix NS so it prevents one-shots again and reduce the cooldown massively, or add to the skill to adjust it's usability. It's got twice the cooldown of other tanks cooldowns and yet is utter junk in comparison, even when it works.
7. Add a clickable, immediate, survivability cooldown that is not based in Block/Parry/Evade. It should be pure mitigated damage or reduced incoming damage %, or whatever.
8. Improve group utility by allowing the Warden to provide either some defensive or ideally offensive buff(s) to the group. I would prefer this to be a group-wide buff instead of a target-specific debuff, for simplicity and versatility when tanking.
9. Fix the Blue-line trait tree so that 85% of the traits aren't worthless garbage.

There are 10000 potential other fixes that would be nice, but these would make the biggest difference. Simply being an "avoidance tank" in a time where no meaningful incoming damage can actually be avoided, isn't good enough anymore.

[Strider5548]

I've made countless posts about fixes to the class throughout all trait lines but more specifically blue line the single biggest fixes would be:

1. Improve group utility by allowing the Warden to provide either some defensive or ideally offensive buff(s) to the group. I would prefer this to be a group-wide buff instead of a target-specific debuff, for simplicity and versatility when tanking.

There are 10000 potential other fixes that would be nice, but these would make the biggest difference. Simply being an "avoidance tank" in a time where no meaningful incoming damage can actually be avoided, isn't good enough anymore.

Yes to all your suggestions, and yes there are many other fixes that would be required but I agree yours are the most pressing. For the group defensive buffs, I would argue they should give Wardens a raid-wide defensive buff, that would be unique and in line with bears doing raid-wide heals.

In any case, yes, the 'avoidance tank' concept was completely ignored when they decided to make BPE completely useless. Tanking is so mind numbingly stupid nowadays it's no surprise cappies are complete gods and other tanks all fail. I don't understand why this isn't a bigger issue for SSG.

I see cappy tanks, not even with high end raid gear, posting 100k+ HPS from combat analysis. Wardens are based on self healing, and our best self heal does what, 18k morale every 4 seconds for 18 seconds? Give me a break, you will get one shot to hell 10 times through never surrender before your self heal gets to 2 ticks (36k Morale!).

It really is a complete joke, we have no way of absorbing group damage, no in combat run speed boost, no survival skills (NS is not a real skill), low morale pools, low finesse, medium armour, self heals that aren't worth the time to execute, and all of our main stats (evade, parry, block, inc heal, resist) are total jokes.

I started off posting thoughtful and respectful feedback across many threads, but honestly looking at how long this has been going on it gets me extremely frustrated. I don't understand how so much time can be spent working on PvMP and making bad decisions around LI's while the insane tanking situation in LOTRO is not being addressed.

[Joedangod]

I see cappy tanks, not even with high end raid gear, posting 100k+ HPS from combat analysis.

100k+ HPS on the raid. Self healing is closer to ~20-25k HPS iirc, which puts it roughly in line with Beorning self healing. It's a bit stupid how much of this healing output is tied into Revealing Mark but the total output isn't absurd by any margin. Conceptually it does appear that Yellow Captains are meant to be generating aggro through healing and support, with Wardens/Guardians/Champions being a bit more traditional in their method of threat generation (whacking the enemy) and Beornings just pumping out infinite forced taunts.

Mostly just trying to stress that comparing Captain healing to Warden healing is a bit incorrect as you're comparing one tank specs aggro generation method to another tanks survival method. It'd be a bit more logical to weigh Captain raid healing against Warden DPS output.

[Omen_Kaizer]

Yes to all your suggestions, and yes there are many other fixes that would be required but I agree yours are the most pressing. For the group defensive buffs, I would argue they should give Wardens a raid-wide defensive buff, that would be unique and in line with bears doing raid-wide heals.

...

I see cappy tanks, not even with high end raid gear, posting 100k+ HPS from combat analysis. Wardens are based on self healing, and our best self heal does what, 18k morale every 4 seconds for 18 seconds? Give me a break, you will get one shot to hell 10 times through never surrender before your self heal gets to 2 ticks (36k Morale!).

Cappy tanks get about 25k self HPS; that 100k from CA accounts for how much they heal everybody, especially since they typically have Revealing Mark up. Last I checked on my warden, I was pushing 20k, but I didnt think to see if NS had procced and bloated it.

Bear tanks dont do raidwide heals, all that is locked away in yellow line.

Largely agree with the rest of what yall are saying. Would be nice to have NS work for it's intended purpose and have a second not-BPE cooldown along the lines of Thickened Hide and SotD, even if that homogenizes tanks. A -20% inc dam buff for 10s on a 30s proc cooldown tied to a shield mastery (a la the stun immunity from shield tactics) would sure be nice for reactive gameplay and would help mitigate the reliance on the Remm set's +5% mit bonus from NS which will not be around in the future. (As it stands, 70% mits self buffed is awesome for passive survivability but doesnt make up for lack of cooldowns). And one boon, which also doesnt make up for lack of cooldowns, that may not be true at future level caps is that none of the heavies ever cap tact mit especially after considering t3 mit penetration whereas wardens with 0 tmit essences do or get much closer after self buffs. The limitation being that self buffs are hard to maintain when there are constant waves of adds to grab since AoE threat takes concerted effort on the initial grab + hold (i.e. ranular wargs) whereas all single target and longterm AoE aggro is breezy. Edit: thinking more, this seems like something that could be handled with practice (which I dont have on warden tank anymore), since there's decent time to refresh between Ranular warg spawns.

Morale is comparable to a cappy tank IF there is a cappy in fellowship. Just be careful buffing other tanks to equal a cappy in morale while giving them the other tools they nee; too high and you'll just see a red + blue or 2 red cappies per raid (raid damage profile or multiple burn targets allowing) if damage is high enough to need full motivate coverage, as in the current meta comp for Killbeast.

[Strider5548]

Cappy tanks get about 25k self HPS; that 100k from CA accounts for how much they heal everybody, especially since they typically have Revealing Mark up. Last I checked on my warden, I was pushing 20k, but I didnt think to see if NS had procced and bloated it.

Bear tanks dont do raidwide heals, all that is locked away in yellow line.

Yea my bad, I should have clarified I meant yellow bears. I have a bear as well, and was just trying to make the point that raid-wide healing is unique to yellow bears, no other class (afaik) has a raid-wide damage absorb, so thought it might be interesting. I don't even know if that would be useful tbh, just throwing out ideas.

As for the cappy HPS, that's a fair point. Still though...I'm not a Warden expert, but what would you reckon a Warden tank could pull from self HPS? My guess is maybe 10k if they sacrifice all of their defensive and offensive gambits and focus on keeping tier 1/2/3 heals + conviction up at all times. I do think being able to heal the rest of the group (that 75k spread) is also really valuable.

EDIT: Just realized you wrote that you were pulling in 20k HPS, that's interesting I will test that myself too later. I am surprised at how high that is given the magnitude of our heals and the time between ticks, there is a good chance ur playing smarter than me though.

[Joedangod]

Yea my bad, I should have clarified I meant yellow bears. I have a bear as well, and was just trying to make the point that raid-wide healing is unique to yellow bears, no other class (afaik) has a raid-wide damage absorb, so thought it might be interesting. I don't even know if that would be useful tbh, just throwing out ideas .

Fates entwined/Essay of Exaltation are raidwide absorbs iirc. Somewhat besides the point as there is a notable difference between a healer having a raidwide defensive ability and a tank having a raidwide defensive ability. Tanks are, after all, typically self-focused when it comes to defence.

As for the cappy HPS, that's a fair point. Still though...I'm not a Warden expert, but what would you reckon a Warden tank could pull from self HPS? My guess is maybe 10k if they sacrifice all of their defensive and offensive gambits and focus on keeping tier 1/2/3 heals + conviction up at all times. I do think being able to heal the rest of the group (that 75k spread) is also really valuable.

That 75k+ going out to the rest of the raid certainly is valuable but as mentioned before that healing from Captains comes at the expense of their DPS. You could easily flip the situation by comparing blue warden DPS to yellow Captain dps, from that angle Blue wardens would look overpowered.

As far as Warden healing goes; it’s definitely a bit low in low target situations but it’s probably worth mentioning they can reach somewhere in excess of 50k HPS in 10 target situations via resolution spam. Number of targets available makes a big difference here.

[wrath247]

Sorry for asking this, never tanked on my warden but: So what are the main issues with warden tanking?

It doesn't seem to be self-heal, I always assumed it was aggro grabbing and sustaining it?

[Omen_Kaizer]

Yea my bad, I should have clarified I meant yellow bears. I have a bear as well, and was just trying to make the point that raid-wide healing is unique to yellow bears, no other class (afaik) has a raid-wide damage absorb, so thought it might be interesting. I don't even know if that would be useful tbh, just throwing out ideas.

As for the cappy HPS, that's a fair point. Still though...I'm not a Warden expert, but what would you reckon a Warden tank could pull from self HPS? My guess is maybe 10k if they sacrifice all of their defensive and offensive gambits and focus on keeping tier 1/2/3 heals + conviction up at all times. I do think being able to heal the rest of the group (that 75k spread) is also really valuable.

EDIT: Just realized you wrote that you were pulling in 20k HPS, that's interesting I will test that myself too later. I am surprised at how high that is given the magnitude of our heals and the time between ticks, there is a good chance ur playing smarter than me though.

Ah I get your point with bears now, that's fair.

So I just tanked two t3 shakas. Az & Maug weren't great because I had to focus aggro at start. On Shaka & Groz+Ulk it was between 19-21k HPS on myself, but 4-5k HPS was one Never Surrender firing off each time, and usually a pot accounted for a little too (but tbh, captains see that pot and possibly LS in their 20-25k too). Comp was rough without an LM and a rusty healer, which is why NS procced in the first place. (The clears were alt-ugly, but that's what you get when you're farming embers like mad right now ). My DPS was not meaningful at all, like <10k. I have a rotation where I alternate sh-sp line, sh-fi line, sh-sp line, fi-sh line, but the rare times I wardtank now I don't mess with fi-sh line except in aoe situations (like for grabbing [not maintaining] the twins); I don't care about the evade buffs from that line atm. That's why my DPS is trash as all tanks (no comment on chank which I have no idea on) are.

[Omen_Kaizer]

Sorry for asking this, never tanked on my warden but: So what are the main issues with warden tanking?

It doesn't seem to be self-heal, I always assumed it was aggro grabbing and sustaining it?

Lack of cooldowns for burst damage and lack of utility (redundant to that of the DPS warden). No big cooldowns like SotD or Thick to reduces scripted damage or save your bacon, no short cooldowns to put less stress on the healers in sharper situations like To Arms and Redirect.

Aggro's fine, you don't even have to hit an "aggro" taunt on single bosses with warning shot, defiant challenge, warning shot, then just pure upkeep for the debuff/buff respectively. AOE aggro takes work for the initial grab and you'll probably lapse your heals to maintain buffs right after you're done spamming aggro.

Heal's on the lower end, but not abysmal. Passive damage reduction is OK but takes input greater than that of other tanks I have, and a big chunk of it is just this level cap from the remm raid gear.

[Ethrildar]

I see cappy tanks, not even with high end raid gear, posting 100k+ HPS from combat analysis. Wardens are based on self healing, and our best self heal does what, 18k morale every 4 seconds for 18 seconds? Give me a break, you will get one shot to hell 10 times through never surrender before your self heal gets to 2 ticks (36k Morale!).

100k in a raid setting is on the lower end. In a raid fight where the group remains near the tank at all times like Remm B3 I can easily sustain 170k HPS on Yellow Cappy. 40k of that is on myself, the other 130k is mostly over-healing that does nothing, but it's still there.

100k+ HPS on the raid. Self healing is closer to ~20-25k HPS iirc, which puts it roughly in line with Beorning self healing..

As per the above, a bit on the low side. I get 30k lower end and 50k higher end self HPS. That said, for an average/slightly above average Cappy tank 25k is probably about right so there's that I guess.

Still though...I'm not a Warden expert, but what would you reckon a Warden tank could pull from self HPS? My guess is maybe 10k if they sacrifice all of their defensive and offensive gambits and focus on keeping tier 1/2/3 heals + conviction up at all times. I do think being able to heal the rest of the group (that 75k spread) is also really valuable.

I've not mained Warden for a while, last time I properly tanked was when Thikil Gundu was worthwhile, and I could pull 35k HPS on that if I did nothing but aggro-bot and spam self heals. I'd imagine with the tiny scaling of late you can probably push it slightly above that, but that was back when 50% of the classes mits weren't tied to gambits, so you could actually afford to just heal if you needed to. Nowadays doing that is a death sentence, so realistically likely way lower than 35k.

Either way it's the "self healing avoidance tank" so it shouldn't be getting less HPS than Guardians do, which it does in most scenarios ATM.

Fates entwined/Essay of Exaltation are raidwide absorbs iirc.

Fates is Fellowship only, not raid-wide. Essay is any nearby player up to the target cap, does not discriminate between groups.

Tanks are, after all, typically self-focused when it comes to defence.

In your opinion, maybe. Not in mine. Guardians and Captains have a host of group defensives, small and large. Who are they defending the group from by virtue of simply being tanks? Champs are the only tank that really offers no group survivability, which fits in pretty well with their berserker/"kill everything in sight" mentality.

As far as Warden healing goes; it’s definitely a bit low in low target situations but it’s probably worth mentioning they can reach somewhere in excess of 50k HPS in 10 target situations via resolution spam. Number of targets available makes a big difference here.

50k in 10 target situations means they're taking 10x the damage, so this is meaningless. I don't even want to add that Thrill of Danger gives you similar numbers, then you rotate other skills to either avoid all the incoming damage or outheal it. It comes to something when Wardens make Guardians look OP in the sorry state they're in, but mob-group tanking and survivability is definitely one of their strongest suits.

Sorry for asking this, never tanked on my warden but: So what are the main issues with warden tanking?

It doesn't seem to be self-heal, I always assumed it was aggro grabbing and sustaining it?

Getting obliterated before you can get all of your 78 self-buffs up.
No meaningful minor or major survivability skills, if you can't gambit it before you die, RIP you and your group.
It's a "proactive" class but you can't be proactive in a lot of cases because the gambit system often slows you down or you can't run in with all your buffs up, and some critical components i.e. trying to prevent a stun with Shield Tactics requires such perfect timing it's not even worth trying most of the time.

Most tanks charge into a group of mobs, let their morale dip a little and then drop a cooldown that keeps them on an even keel until either the healer, or their self-sustain can settle in and everything's fine. Warden just doesn't have this, you run in and hope to live long enough to get stuff up. Bosses are either: Totally fine NP or Oops I got 1shot and NS didn't proc.... Or: NS procced and then I got re-1shot again 10 seconds later.

It needs survivability clickables that are not gambits and work reactively, and it needs consolidation of its self buffs to allow much less time spend repeatedly applying them, and much more time spent damaging and self-healing alongside a very large increase to self-heal potency.

[Riddim The Legend]

We have indeed seen extensive feedback on the Warden. And we have not forgotten Rune-Keepers either :-). However, it can only help us when we do go to make changes, to have detailed / consolidated feedback. We do read the class sub-forums as well as these preview threads searching for class feedback. We also read the General Discussion and Feedback forum of course, but it is easier for specific feedback to get lost / buried there.

Just so you know.

[Ethrildar]

Just so you know.

I can just see the patch notes now:

Warden morale-taps have been reduced, as we felt they were slightly over-potent.
Warden BPE has been removed since you guys told us it wasn't doing anything.
Wardens will now need to spend 3 Mithril Coins per gambit execution.
Wardens now have a new skill: Fear No Evil - 25 seconds of -15% incoming damage*
....

*Requires your credit card information to be entered on each use, but we know you Wardens have quick fingers so shouldn't be a problem.

[Joedangod]

100k in a raid setting is on the lower end. In a raid fight where the group remains near the tank at all times like Remm B3 I can easily sustain 170k HPS on Yellow Cappy. 40k of that is on myself, the other 130k is mostly over-healing that does nothing, but it's still there.

I'd appreciate it if you could submit evidence for those figures. It'd be nice to update the comparison thread.

In your opinion, maybe. Not in mine. Guardians and Captains have a host of group defensives, small and large. Who are they defending the group from by virtue of simply being tanks? Champs are the only tank that really offers no group survivability, which fits in pretty well with their berserker/"kill everything in sight" mentality.

Excluding Captains on the grounds of "no/poor traitline separation", Guardians have two group defensives but these are only for blue line, yellow has none. Beornings have no group defensives. Champions have no group defensives. Warden has two if you're counting Conviction (which is first and foremost a self buff) and neither of those two are impactful or have ever been impactful. Groupwide defensive abilities only really become a staple of tanks if you're looking at Captains as a prime example of what tanks should be. That would be a weird thing to do.

50k in 10 target situations means they're taking 10x the damage, so this is meaningless. I don't even want to add that Thrill of Danger gives you similar numbers, then you rotate other skills to either avoid all the incoming damage or outheal it. It comes to something when Wardens make Guardians look OP in the sorry state they're in, but mob-group tanking and survivability is definitely one of their strongest suits.

In terms of content design damage taken doesn't really scale linearly based on number of targets. Generally speaking low target encounters tend to churn out more damage per mob, encounters with a high number of targets tend to be tuned so that each target individually does less damage. A fairly reliable 50k+ HPS that can be sustained for notably longer than Guardians 10s Thrill of Danger is nothing to scoff at.

[Ethrildar]

I'd appreciate it if you could submit evidence for those figures. It'd be nice to update the comparison thread.

These figures are A) not too difficult to obtain by any decent Captain and B) I don't raid Remm (or anything, really) anymore, I won't be spending hours finding a competent group to get to Boss 3 just so I can prove a point to some rando on the internet. You hate Captain so much, saying it's so hilariously easy and OP, just go roll one and steamroll all the content and you'll have all the evidence you need. Hell, Discord me and I'll teach you how to play it if you want. I think you'll have a far different stance on the class when you actually take pen away from paper and put yourself in its boots.

Drivel about how tanks shouldn't be defensive

I won't have this argument with you again, about 10 people disagreed with you the last time you spouted this nonsense and nothing's changed since then. Tanks in general offer a great deal of either defensive, offensive (or both) support to the groups, deal with it, or continue spouting niche arguments in an attempt to diminish/derail the point, either way I won't continue to respond on this point.

Also just lol at Conviction being meaningful group support worth of mention. I'm dying :')

In terms of content design damage taken doesn't really scale linearly based on number of targets. Generally speaking low target encounters tend to churn out more damage per mob, encounters with a high number of targets tend to be tuned so that each target individually does less damage.

True, also obvious and needless to state. The fact of the matter is that if you're pulling, say, the ~15 mob pulls in Stairs at T5 you're taking around 60k TPS on a Captain, probably a fair chunk more on Warden, and whilst spamming heals you're not maintaining defensive buffs.

A fairly reliable 50k+ HPS that can be sustained for notably longer than Guardians 10s Thrill of Danger is nothing to scoff at.

Except Guardian doesn't just have Thrill of Danger, does it???

Again, properly rotating cooldowns allows for impressive survival time if done competently. I don't know why this is such a struggle for you to understand, thread after thread. ToD is a tiny cooldown so you use that, then wait to get to 20% morale, CaB, morale pot, Pledge, ToD again, wait to get to 10% morale, Warriors Fortitude, wait to get to 20% morale, ToD again, wait to get to 20% morale, Juggernaut..... You can do this nearly indefinitely if you're also utilising AoE stuns optimally. Where this crumbles, making Guardians junk, is in bosses where BPE is meaningless and you take hits that make CaB/ToD negligible because they're every 5 seconds.

The point, which you consistently miss, is that straight-up heals per second isn't the be all and end all, you can combat groups of mobs in multiple ways, and this is not the issue Warden faces, it's getting spanked right off the bat by groups or bosses alike, or being 1shot by bosses the moment one of the many things you have to manage drops off for a split second.

[Joedangod]

These figures are A) not too difficult to obtain by any decent Captain and B) I don't raid Remm (or anything, really) anymore, I won't be spending hours finding a competent group to get to Boss 3 just so I can prove a point to some rando on the internet. You hate Captain so much, saying it's so hilariously easy and OP, just go roll one and steamroll all the content and you'll have all the evidence you need. Hell, Discord me and I'll teach you how to play it if you want. I think you'll have a far different stance on the class when you actually take pen away from paper and put yourself in its boots.

Okaaaayyyyy, so I guess we'll just have to ignore your outlier figures on grounds of "Unwilling to supply supporting evidence and would rather insult other people instead".

I won't have this argument with you again, about 10 people disagreed with you the last time you spouted this nonsense and nothing's changed since then. Tanks in general offer a great deal of either defensive, offensive (or both) support to the groups, deal with it, or continue spouting niche arguments in an attempt to diminish/derail the point, either way I won't continue to respond on this point.

Also just lol at Conviction being meaningful group support worth of mention. I'm dying :')

Right, so you didn't read what was written there. After all it noted that A) Groupwide defensive support abilities are fairly rare on tanks with most specs not having any and B) Conviction isn't meaningful group support.

True, also obvious and needless to state.

Makes one wonder why you stated the contrary.

The point, which you consistently miss, is that straight-up heals per second isn't the be all and end all.

Never said it was, the discussion at the time was simply on the topic of...warden self heals. Mentioning that Wardens self healing spikes in high target situations is pretty pertinent to said discussion.

[Ethrildar]

Okaaaayyyyy, so I guess we'll just have to ignore your outlier figures on grounds of "Unwilling to supply supporting evidence and would rather insult other people instead".

Insulting? Yikes, time to grow a thicker skin buddy. Literally nothing I said there was an insult, I merely suggested that instead of all this "on paper XYZ is true!" stuff, you actually go and play the classes you're constantly bashing on and taking over the forums on. If "proving" (as if I need to prove myself lmao) it to you was as simple as jumping online and spending a couple of minutes doing so, I would gladly add to the data pool, however several hours of my time is simply not necessary. I'm providing you with further information with which to form a more comprehensive argument for buffing Wardens and you throw it in my face as if I'm making it up. Lol. Just... Lol.

I won't argue with you further, it's like a damn interpretive dance... You move the goal posts with every new post and twist everything to make you appear right when you're so blatantly wrong on.. Just so damn much.

"But technically...!!" - As you snip out a tiny section of what you said and ignore all the falsities you post before it.

Mentioning that Wardens self healing spikes in high target situations is pretty pertinent to said discussion.

...As does their TPS, in direct correlation or otherwise. Nobody struggled with this concept and you didn't need to bring it up in the first place.

You enjoy derailing and destroying yet another thread, attempting to revamp/balance/provide suggestions for a class that is utterly trash right now. Good job, I'll avoid responding to your comments further.

[Strider5548]

That 75k+ going out to the rest of the raid certainly is valuable but as mentioned before that healing from Captains comes at the expense of their DPS. You could easily flip the situation by comparing blue warden DPS to yellow Captain dps, from that angle Blue wardens would look overpowered.

I don't agree here. If you actually play a blue warden, I guarantee you there are a max of 3 gambits you will use that do damage. You don't have time to try to DPS, and even if you did Warden tanks (lol I say it as if there are more than 5 of them out there) don't have enough PM or Crit to actually do any meaningful damage.

My blue warden uses 2 pieces of DPS gear, the rest is all defensive. I use PM titles on my sword and jav, all defensive virtues except for wit, and I stack vitality essences. Going full on tank build I am still squishy as hell, but if I run a DPS rotation on target dummy I get maybe 60k DPS.

Now, imagine you are tanking, trying desperately to keep your mits up with long gambits while fitting in self-heal gambits that do almost nothing in between. There's no time to DPS, on single target as a tank you will do less DPS than a cappy. I have compared and confirmed.

The argument that Wardens are worse tanks because they do DPS as tanks is completely flawed, I wish it were true, but for it to be true Wardens would need to be about 10x better tanks and about 3-4x better DPS while tanking.

[quiznoxious]

My blue warden uses 2 pieces of DPS gear, the rest is all defensive. I use PM titles on my sword and jav, all defensive virtues except for wit, and I stack vitality essences. Going full on tank build I am still squishy as hell, but if I run a DPS rotation on target dummy I get maybe 60k DPS.

funny

[Joedangod]

You move the goal posts with every new post and twist everything to make you appear right when you're so blatantly wrong on.. Just so damn much.

Tanks are, after all, typically self-focused when it comes to defence.

In your opinion, maybe. Not in mine. Guardians and Captains have a host of group defensives, small and large. Who are they defending the group from by virtue of simply being tanks? Champs are the only tank that really offers no group survivability, which fits in pretty well with their berserker/"kill everything in sight" mentality.

Excluding Captains on the grounds of "no/poor traitline separation", Guardians have two group defensives but these are only for blue line, yellow has none. Beornings have no group defensives. Champions have no group defensives. Warden has two if you're counting Conviction (which is first and foremost a self buff) and neither of those two are impactful or have ever been impactful. Groupwide defensive abilities only really become a staple of tanks if you're looking at Captains as a prime example of what tanks should be. That would be a weird thing to do.

Tanks in general offer a great deal of either defensive, offensive (or both) support to the groups, deal with it

You should really get someone in to look at that glass house of yours.

[Krindel]

Every tank class has some defense utility to protect his group or fellowhip member in form of protection skill, mitigation buff or outgoing damage debuff, problem is that some of this skills are too strong, or works just fine and some of them are not scaled properly or they are bad in concept.

Blue beorning - Sacrifice, Claw Swipe, Slam
Yellow captain - In Harm's Way, To Arms, Shield of the Dúnedain, Muster Courage fear resistance
Blue champion - Champion's Challenge, Horn of Champions, Blade Wall
Blue guardian - Shield Wall, Fortification, Litany of Defiance, War chant
Yellow guardian - War chant, Protection
Yellow captain - In Harm's Way, To Arms, Shield of the Dúnedain, Muster Courage fear resistance
Blue warden - For the Free Peoples, Warning Shot, maybe Suppression from ranged Offensive Strike gambits

[Strider5548]

Every tank class has some defense utility to protect his group or fellowhip member in form of protection skill, mitigation buff or outgoing damage debuff, problem is that some of this skills are too strong, or works just fine and some of them are not scaled properly or they are bad in concept.

Blue beorning - Sacrifice, Claw Swipe, Slam
Yellow captain - In Harm's Way, To Arms, Shield of the Dúnedain, Muster Courage fear resistance
Blue champion - Champion's Challenge, Horn of Champions, Blade Wall
Blue guardian - Shield Wall, Fortification, Litany of Defiance, War chant
Yellow guardian - War chant, Protection
Yellow captain - In Harm's Way, To Arms, Shield of the Dúnedain, Muster Courage fear resistance
Blue warden - For the Free Peoples, Warning Shot, maybe Suppression from ranged Offensive Strike gambits

I know you meant it because it's obvious, but just to clarify in case someone from SSG reads this and thinks "oh Wardens are fine that row of text is longer than all the others"...

For the Free Peoples takes way too long to build up, it lasts way too short, and the final impact is a small mitigation buff for the group. It is essentially worthless. Given how long it takes to build into it should be a permanent buff throughout the entire fight until combat is dropped. What would be better, is if they actually gave us a useful skill.

Warning shot is just a single target taunt, which every tank class has.

[Cynemna]

I didn't think I would get many replies on this.. thank you all and it feels like everyone suffers..I wish they have a look on this thread