The dragons of Morgoth - spoiler warning for Gundabad epic story

[Tirian-Hammerfist]

Loving the epic so far (not had chance to finish it yet!), but after the Sunder-battle instance, I've been left with a question. Given that this is involved in the new epic, there are spoilers below for those that haven't got that far yet.

The instance tells us that nine dragons attacked Biriz-zahar in the First Age, and that five were slain.

This means us that four survived. In the instance, we saw:
- Etterfang
- Thorog
- Hrimil

This leaves one mystery dragon who was there and survived, but was not seen in the instance. My bet is either on Smaug (as Etterfang's brother), Thostir the Rank or Draigoch. It would be cool to find out - and to encounter Thostir at some point, given that, after the new raid, Thostir is likely to be the only known dragon left alive.

[Brinuw]

There is also the possibility that Bregmor was the 9th dragon. [Spoiler]Bregmor was the frost dragon that we actually try and stop from being killed in Volume 1, Book 14, Chapter 12 by Mordrambor's forces, but arrived too late[/Spoiler]

[Tirian-Hammerfist]

There is also the possibility that Bregmor was the 9th dragon. [Spoiler]Bregmor was the frost dragon that we actually try and stop from being killed in Volume 1, Book 14, Chapter 12 by Mordrambor's forces, but arrived too late[/Spoiler]

I did consider Bregmor, although I remember Mordrambor describing him as a ‘lesser’ dragon, which put me more in mind of a Vethug Wintermind type drake.

I’ve had another thought, and my apologies if this was made obvious in the story or was already implied and I missed it - perhaps one of the five slain dragons was the one that we find the bones of in Min Navaid in Clovengap?

[Skohgar]

It would be nice to see another random raid dragon like Draigoch maybe somewhere in the mountains of Harad or Rhun who could have fled from morgoth and survived as right now Hrimil and Thostir are portrayed as the last 2

[Brinswith]

Seeing Thorog was a great cameo. I loved that part of the epic.

[Morgahad]

Loving the epic so far (not had chance to finish it yet!), but after the Sunder-battle instance, I've been left with a question. Given that this is involved in the new epic, there are spoilers below for those that haven't got that far yet.

The instance tells us that nine dragons attacked Biriz-zahar in the First Age, and that five were slain.

This means us that four survived. In the instance, we saw:
- Etterfang
- Thorog
- Hrimil

This leaves one mystery dragon who was there and survived, but was not seen in the instance. My bet is either on Smaug (as Etterfang's brother), Thostir the Rank or Draigoch. It would be cool to find out - and to encounter Thostir at some point, given that, after the new raid, Thostir is likely to be the only known dragon left alive.

IMO its smaug - Etterfang brother like thorog is hrimil brother

Draigoth was not the morgoth Dragon - what is explained in lost lore smaug in ered mithrim

[Tirian-Hammerfist]

IMO its smaug - Etterfang brother like thorog is hrimil brother

Draigoth was not the morgoth Dragon - what is explained in lost lore smaug in ered mithrim

Just had a look back at the lost lore - I don’t think it says that Draigoch wasn’t one of Morgoth’s dragons (and I think all dragons were?), but you’re right that Smaug didn’t know of Draigoch, implying that they hadn’t met before (and as Etterfang and Smaug are siblings, they probably would have been aware of each other if Etterfang had fought alongside Draigoch in the Sunder-battle. That doesn’t rule out Thostir though.

[Fundin_II]

My guess is Thostír the Rank is still alive somewhere, maybe he went back to the Orocani mtns (Red mtns) east of Rhun where he sacked a dwarf hold in the past (from lost lore of AoM):

"Indeed, it was Dragons that had laid claim to Tínya and Tulcya. A fire-drake, Thostír the Rank, and a cold-drake, Hrímil Frost-heart, had destroyed the Dwarf-kingdoms of the eastern mountains, and knowingly or not, they swallowed the Rings of Power as well as the Dwarf-kings who wielded them."

Fundin and the dwarves and all allies look forward to hunting down Throstir, hopefully in the Orocani Mountains!

Fundin II

[Vilan]

If you run Abyss and finish the exploration deed, you can mouse over the items for... I think it's the Pit of Frost and Pit of Fire? Anyway they mention that Hrimil and Thostir were trapped in the Abyss but escaped when Barad-Dur collapsed. So pretty safe to say Thostir is still alive and up to no good somewhere.

[Hierona]

Been wondering this for a while about the Timeline. MoL, pls correct me if I'm wrong in this but I have been looking for when the dwarves awoke and the moment the Sunderbattle was fought and it fell. Let's rewind:

Years of the Tress:
- 10.061 The elves awake, with the dwarves not far behind.
- 10.349 Some elves are captured and made into orcs. Assuming dwarves at this point exist and are building their kingdoms, which include Gundabad
- 14.373 The Years of the Trees end 4000 years later.

Durin the Deathless dies after 2,395 years which means he died in the Years of the Trees.

The Sunderbattle however is told that it is in the first age and Durin is still alive, including Motsog who just lived a normal lifespan so like 200 years. Am I missing something, or is it the case that dwarves awake much later around the time of man? Cause otherwise how are there dragons around?

[MadeofLions]

The Sunderbattle however is told that it is in the first age and Durin is still alive, including Motsog who just lived a normal lifespan so like 200 years.

The specifics and timing of things in the Elder Days obviously get into things we can't talk about in too much detail, but Motsog also had a much longer than normal lifespan -- he awoke shortly after Durin, well before the appearance of Men. I'm not sure what you mean by 'why are there dragons still around?' since they were very much involved in the Biggest Of Battles at the end of the First Age, which means they're fair game at the time of the Sunder-battle, which is about two hundred years before that.

MoL

[Gnagerwine]

The specifics and timing of things in the Elder Days obviously get into things we can't talk about in too much detail, but Motsog also had a much longer than normal lifespan -- he awoke shortly after Durin, well before the appearance of Men. I'm not sure what you mean by 'why are there dragons still around?' since they were very much involved in the Biggest Of Battles at the end of the First Age, which means they're fair game at the time of the Sunder-battle, which is about two hundred years before that.

MoL

~200 years before the end of the First Age? Ooh, that's some new info! While you're at it, I also want to clear up a point from Legacy of Durin. After seeing a vision of Durin VI being slain by Durin's Bane and Durin V slain by Thorog, Prince Durin asks Mótsog, "Does it always end thus?" and Mótsog answers, "Aye. That is the fate of Durin in every age in which he appears."

So this sounds like in your version of the story, every Durin dies violently, right? Durin IV could have easily died during the War of the Last Alliance, and Durin I in the wars of the First Age. But last we saw Durin III was sealing Khazad-dûm, and all we know of Durin II is he invited the Zhélruka to Gundabad. How do you imagine they met their ends? Or are you saving that for future story?

[MadeofLions]

So this sounds like in your version of the story, every Durin dies violently, right?

Not necessarily -- I think what Motsog is saying here isn't that 'every Durin dies fighting,' just that 'every Durin dies,' which is of course not a surprise, but it's not the most welcome news for the person to whom he's speaking.

In our notes, for instance, both Durin I and Durin IV die in the years following their respective wars, although that might not be mentioned in-game anywhere.

MoL

[TesalionLortus]

In our notes, for instance, both Durin I and Durin IV die in the years following their respective wars, although that might not be mentioned in-game anywhere.

MoL

This is roughly the impression that the story inflicted on me (keeping in mind that "short" for dwarves may be a bit longer than we would usually think of). Not that they all died in fighting but overall it was somewhat always a sad fate, rather than this happy, glorious existence full of just successes with nice, cool "retirement" and death during a drinking party. The entire story of Motsog and how, despite all that's happened, Durin chose to spend time with his old, disgraced friend, coming down and down all these steps and paths, kinda hits pretty strongly - as if there was something amiss above and a hole to be filled, for some reason, due to all the burdens, and one might assume not even his wife was perfectly ok with his "trips" - perhaps.

[Gnagerwine]

Ok, that clears it up. Thanks MadeOfLions!

[Tirian-Hammerfist]

Not necessarily -- I think what Motsog is saying here isn't that 'every Durin dies fighting,' just that 'every Durin dies,' which is of course not a surprise, but it's not the most welcome news for the person to whom he's speaking.

In our notes, for instance, both Durin I and Durin IV die in the years following their respective wars, although that might not be mentioned in-game anywhere.

MoL

Didn’t Durin IV die in the cutscene when killed by Sauron on the slopes of Mount Doom?

[MadeofLions]

Didn’t Durin IV die in the cutscene when killed by Sauron on the slopes of Mount Doom?

Nope. Are you thinking of... I want to say maybe Huneric Hundred-slayer of the Thiuda? The others who don't make it out of that cutscene are pretty obvious.

Durin IV would have been fighting down below, alongside many other brave souls, but he wasn't part of the core group fighting Sauron on the Day of Many Dooms.

MoL

[Tirian-Hammerfist]

Nope. Are you thinking of... I want to say maybe Huneric Hundred-slayer of the Thiuda? The others who don't make it out of that cutscene are pretty obvious.

Durin IV would have been fighting down below, alongside many other brave souls, but he wasn't part of the core group fighting Sauron on the Day of Many Dooms.

MoL

Just watched the cutscene back - I’d remembered Huneric was there, but think that I’d assumed Durin was there too because he had and Huneric had been together fighting the eastern forces. However, in the cutscene it is the Prince of Dol Amroth that dies after Huneric - so not sure how I got the two of those confused!

[Hierona]

The specifics and timing of things in the Elder Days obviously get into things we can't talk about in too much detail, but Motsog also had a much longer than normal lifespan -- he awoke shortly after Durin, well before the appearance of Men. I'm not sure what you mean by 'why are there dragons still around?' since they were very much involved in the Biggest Of Battles at the end of the First Age, which means they're fair game at the time of the Sunder-battle, which is about two hundred years before that.

MoL

Oh that is interesting. So you saying Durin and Motsog lived for about the same amount of time. Would be an interesting part to go into. I was adding to this part on the wiki https://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Timeline, and I came across the dwarves.

10349
The first elves are captured and tortured in Utumno and the first Orcs are brought to life.
The first dwarves awake in Arda.

14,373
The moon rises for the first time.
Fingolfin enters Middle-earth.
The Years of the Trees end.

590
The First Age ends with the defeat of Morgoth. Most of Beleriand sinks beneath the sea.

That would mean Durin the Deathless lived for over 5000 years, but seeing as he is called the Deathless I can get into that. I was clinging to something that was never actually stated that Durin lived to be around 2500 years and this would mean the Sunder-grot was set in the Years of the Trees, which would make dragons, especially winged dragons a rare sight, but if we extend the lifespan it makes more sense. This means Durin dies around the age of 5000 and Motsog dies around 4800 years of age. Khazad-Dûm would have been made around the year 300 of the First Age instead of the year 10400 of the Years of the Trees where I assumed it was, but we now know Gundabad was made around then.

Ty for you time MoL, made it clear.


PS; If you could, do you know how long the Siege of Gundabad took roughly?

[MadeofLions]

PS; If you could, do you know how long the Siege of Gundabad took roughly?

I don't want to put an exact date on it, because every time we do we run into the age-old question of 'how are players crossing such distances in so little time? My immersion!'

But I think Hrimil wants to get the dwarves and their over-eager prince to Gundabad as soon as possible, so she can handle things. That would mean the arrival of the Gabil-akka happens pretty quickly, and the actual siege is just however long it takes to break through the ice: longer in our real world than it would have been in Middle-earth, so measured in weeks instead of the months it took for hit expansion 'Fate of Gundabad' to arrive.

Tolkien would have had the timing much more exact! But in the medium of videogames things can be a little more fuzzy, and we've never been shy about hitting Pause and cramming a lot more gameplay into a short period of time than we could otherwise get away with.

MoL

[Hierona]

I don't want to put an exact date on it, because every time we do we run into the age-old question of 'how are players crossing such distances in so little time? My immersion!'

But I think Hrimil wants to get the dwarves and their over-eager prince to Gundabad as soon as possible, so she can handle things. That would mean the arrival of the Gabil-akka happens pretty quickly, and the actual siege is just however long it takes to break through the ice: longer in our real world than it would have been in Middle-earth, so measured in weeks instead of the months it took for hit expansion 'Fate of Gundabad' to arrive.

Tolkien would have had the timing much more exact! But in the medium of videogames things can be a little more fuzzy, and we've never been shy about hitting Pause and cramming a lot more gameplay into a short period of time than we could otherwise get away with.

MoL

Thank you very much sir. Have a good one and looking forward to the stories of the upcoming updates.

[TesalionLortus]

so measured in weeks instead of the months it took for hit expansion 'Fate of Gundabad' to arrive.

It was a trench war but also more of a dwarven-style Blitzkrieg. Rather than just sit there for months the trenches and tunnels move forward pretty quickly :P

If that was weeks + resilience of the dwarves (so why they can still fight despite that previous war effort against Sauron), then not such a great "immersion" issue. If that was a story of men, however... that would change things.

I wanted to ask another question - how long do you think the campaign inside the mountain took? - but then I realized this is one of those "hard to define" since it doesn't have a definitive end, with all the dailies and missions being a part of it, and there is still some fighting even with Hrimil gone. Though I suppose... once you give us a date/event from the LOTR timeline, then we'll see how it is.