Changes to Motes/Ember/Figments

[hillard1959]

it's capitalism...

a company is regarded successfull based on how much profit they make,
not by the quality of the product or how satisfied the customers are

That's Capitalism run amok. Really, unless they're rolling out some changes they're not talking about yet that aren't designed to suck the money straight out of your wallet, this is a very bad step. Even now, everyone who was yelling about the game being P2W are now justified, further damaging the game's reputation. If they do make some positive changes in the next few updates... well... it's kinda too late. The damage is done. This just makes a game that has a reputation for being too expensive look even more expensive. No amount of free content coupons are going to change that.

What's next? NFTs?

[Feldanor]

You will continue to get Embers from weeklies. We can also take a look at sources of Figments as needed.

yeh youre really out of touch with the community if you think thats a sufficient answer. Are you adding new weeklies? What form are these likely to take? Will they drop in instances? You cant release this info that makes SSG look like money grabbing fools, without more information where we will get our embers!

[Starkorm]

You will continue to get Embers from weeklies. We can also take a look at sources of Figments as needed.

So I can get 1500 embers a week when the cap is 100,000?

[Zyot]

You will continue to get Embers from weeklies. We can also take a look at sources of Figments as needed.

Does that mean that weeklies and loot boxes will be the only source?

If it so...you are making a huge mistake. Cancel this asap.

[Glohir]

So basically you increase the cap, but drastically decrease the way people can get embers? This feels like one big moneygrab and will bite SSG in the ### when players decide not to bother and just swap to a different game instead of spending more money on this one.

[Calding]

This transition between embers and motes has been happening since level cap 120, and it is refreshing to have some documentation on the expected outcome. However, until now it has only been for level cap increases!

Now if I understand the announcement properly, every time a new region is released SSG will empty our ember balance (transferred to motes if that does not take us over quota) and convert any quest gear which disenchants to embers into motes (outside of adventurer gear from ember boxes).

The only reason I can see for this change is that it will mean that unless we acquire the new content we will not be able to obtain ember gear, even if the level cap is not changing. Perhaps I have become a bit pessimistic and have overlooked something, but this is a sad change in my opinion.

[WeirdJedi]

So I can get 1500 embers a week when the cap is 100,000?

Hmm. I count more than that. There's the ember-worthy craft that requires shards for 1000. Both mission weeklies that give 500 each. Then both of the Gundabad weeklies that give 500 each. Then the sigils for ember exchange for 500.

This doesn't include the 300 you get from some of the deeds, but those aren't repeatable.

[Nicname]

You will continue to get Embers from weeklies. We can also take a look at sources of Figments as needed.

With all due respect, that is no way to treat customers. That's literally Pay2Win what this Update points at. You can earn like what, 1.5k Embers rn? lets see... if I have an Item I need for Min/Maxing, lets say for a raid that requires certain stats, and that Item costs, lets say, 8k Embers (like AD), I can either run 6 weeks the weekly quest until I have a required piece... OOOOOOR I could go into the store, and outparse anyone that doesn't have the monetary resources to do so. Don't misunderstand me, I've been paying mothly for years, since I think this is a beautiful game and want to worship your work, I even get, that many complaints are just a bit heavy for such a small team. But what you're up to right now, is just shoving an Update in the throats of loyal paying customers and telling us "If you don't like the changes, you can pay, and if you can't either get along with it and quit endgame or get out of the way."

I'm really disappointed right now. Not only that there has been huge clamour about tremendous balancing issues, Itemization, Bugs in Instance, hilarious lag (i thought outpatching weaponswap made the deal?), no, you guys just focused on the single only thing that was none of your playerbases concern, but your, or EG7s - Money.
I gladly pay for content, as far as I can, but not if I'm forced to. But when I do, I expect some kind of worship, not for me, but the entire playerbase. Charge us if you feel the need to do it, but at least offer the expected service for the coin.

[scifispirit]

This transition between embers and motes has been happening since level cap 120, and it is refreshing to have some documentation on the expected outcome. However, until now it has only been for level cap increases!

Now if I understand the announcement properly, every time a new region is released SSG will empty our ember balance (transferred to motes if that does not take us over quota) and convert any quest gear which disenchants to embers into motes (outside of adventurer gear from ember boxes).

The only reason I can see for this change is that it will mean that unless we acquire the new content we will not be able to obtain ember gear, even if the level cap is not changing. Perhaps I have become a bit pessimistic and have overlooked something, but this is a sad change in my opinion.

I understand that embers will only come from new gear, but it pisses me off that they're gonna take the embers *we already earned* right out of our wallets and just make them motes. Leave our wallets alone!!! Change stuff we don't own in-game, fine, but what's in my wallet I EARNED. I frigging WORKED FOR it. And, honestly, how dare you just take it back.

[Feldanor]

I understand that embers will only come from new gear, but it pisses me off that they're gonna take the embers *we already earned* right out of our wallets and just make them motes. Leave our wallets alone!!! Change stuff we don't own in-game, fine, but what's in my wallet I EARNED. I frigging WORKED FOR it. And, honestly, how dare you just take it back.

to a degree i think they have to convert it to motes. If you hit lvl cap and can just go barter a bunch of boxes you got a load of gear fast. Gotta worry more about actually getting embers now since SSG look to be money grabbing ba... well im sure you can fill in the rest.

[PointyEaredBowTwanger]

4. The sources of Embers of Enchantment will continue to change as our newest content chances. The only gear that disenchants into Embers will come from Adventurer's Lootboxes.

So... that'll be PayToWin then, something that is pretty much universally hated. Why? Why change something that actually has worked pretty well, with the only real complaint being that the currency cap is too low? Why this? Why not other issues, like lag preventing people from running instance, or instance bugs, or... so many things people have been *begging* for a fix on, and instead you break something that worked to make a PayToWin system in a game that people are already paying for, one way or another.

Where's the incentive for people to actually play coming from, if they can't improve their gear through playing because they can't get the currency needed to do so?

WHY will you be taking away Embers that will now take an extremely long time to collect if and when you see fit with something you're calling a 'major update'? I need an item that costs, say 8k embers. I have 7k and the reset this week will *maybe* allow me to collect enough on the weeklies. But, oops, update on Wednesday and suddenly I have 7k extra motes which I don't need, and 0 embers, which I do. That's actually a disincentive to bother continuing with the grind. It's also yet another way to continue the push against casual players.

[pittcrew1]

As a fairly casual player at this point, mostly doing solo content, these changes will dramatically reduce my incentives for playing things like missions and the various sources of Motes from past zones, as they're currently a great source for Figments and therefore earning the cosmetics. I have never really found many of the Mote traders relevant or useful; I mostly converted Motes into Figments. Without that, I won't seek out earning Motes.

On one hand, I am somewhat appreciative of this. I have addictive and completionist tendencies, so I try to earn every cosmetic just for the sake of it. Taking away my ability to earn those in game is going to reduce the amount of effort I "have" to put in to playing endlessly repeatable, scaling content. That is kind of good. But weren't missions and the like developed to provide that kind of filler content for people (especially solo) to have things to do? It seems somewhat odd to strip a fairly big part of their appeal from them.

I think it's worth seriously considering how these changes would affect player engagement and play time in various systems of the game, in contrast with net revenue projections as a result of them. I'm sure you've done that to some extent. But I really don't know if the trade-off would be worth making. Although it may be nice to reduce instance-creation strain for the server with reduced interest in missions and such, I don't know if it'd be worth the trade-off of fewer players playing and them having less to do.

It does seem like the reasoning behind segmenting the different currencies into more clear sources and uses is being done to limit access to them and therefore to drive more sales of Keys. I don't particularly like that, but I can see why it may be a goal and why you may feel like it's necessary after re-evaluating how things/sales have gone. I, for one, will not buy any more Keys than I have (which has been almost none) if this change goes through as written. It will just reduce my ambition to get certain things that are no longer reasonably in my reach.

I do understand that Figments acquisition has maybe gotten beyond what it was really originally balanced for, since Motes continue to get more and more sources to them. However, if that is any -or even the main- significant reason inspiring these changes, I'd at least recommend a more targeted change to help limit/reduce that, rather than completely removing the conversations. For example, maybe make it so that Mote/Ember->Figment conversions still exist, but at a diminished rate, such as 1000->300 or 1000->500. I also really don't see the issue with allowing Ember->Mote trades existing at 1:1; most people wouldn't reasonably do that anyway.

Does making "newer cosmetics cost more Figments when first released" mean the current prices or previously-released ones will drop and the "initial release" prices will be comparable to what we have seen now (i.e. 7.5k max for an expensive mount, 6k for an expensive housing item, 5k for an expensive armor), or does it mean those prices will remain as is and newer items will be even more expensive (10-15k)? I suspect it's the latter; if so, that would be very concerning, considering the impact of that increase will be compounded by the fact that in-game sources for Figments are being reduced so drastically at the same time. That said, I probably simply wouldn't worry about getting the newer items immediately anyway, and would wait for the prices to fall. I suspect many would do the same.

As for the currency cap raises, I'm all for them. I'd like Figments to raise a bit higher, but it's fine as is.

[ElLongior]

Does that mean that weeklies and loot boxes will be the only source?

If it so...you are making a huge mistake. Cancel this asap.

DO CANCEL THIS.. previous updates are grind. now it is ####..... I play this for 13 year worst thing ever.. thanks for nothing

[Nydhogg]

I understand that embers will be converted into motes with a level cap increase, this is how it initially worked as well. It makes sense you don't want people to buy 150 gear on day 1 cause they ran a lot of 140 content. However I take issue with the following two changes:

> The only gear that disenchants into Embers will come from Adventurer’s Lootboxes.

This sounds like the only way to get a decent source of embers is not playing the game, but going to the store to open lootboxes? The few embers we get from weeklies aren't even close to what we can earn now playing cap level instances to acquire gear to ember. Fortunately we can speed up the process in the store?

> Motes and Embers will no longer convert to Figments of Splendour.

This is terrible. The store is the only way to get figments year round if the conversion is removed.

[Winzhi]

At least add content to do at end game (dungeons and raids) before you add such a blatant p2w change and fix the lag so more people wants to stick around and play the game.

[Caladria-Gr]

This is an absolutely horrible decision that negatively impacts the game in more ways you can think. I am not even gonna mention how a flagrant and distasteful attempt at a cash-grab this is...

Firstly, forcefully downgrading currency we have already gathered and earned, that's a big no.

Secondly, you are actively discouraging people from running instances. If my character is geared, I have no reason to help anyone do any instances, cause I will be getting no embers.

Thirdly, you are giving us gear barterers from which we can spend embers if we have completed the raid or fs instances at a certain tier of difficulty, which we could use to gear our alts or get the piece we have been unable to acquire after several runs due to your RNG loots system. Now you are forcing us to pay you even more money instead.

Fourthly, so far we had quite a few options to acquire embers and barter gear. PLAY THE GAME (Do instances) and disenchant the drops, do weekly/daily quests, crafting, and buying keys. Now you choose to reduce our options and shepherd us into playing and enjoying the game the way you want to and not the way we want to.

I could go on, but I feel that trying to reason with people that have obviously lost touch with reality is pointless.

[wispsong]

I understand that embers will be converted into motes with a level cap increase, this is how it initially worked as well. It makes sense you don't want people to buy 150 gear on day 1 cause they ran a lot of 140 content. However I take issue with the following two changes:

> The only gear that disenchants into Embers will come from Adventurer’s Lootboxes.

This sounds like the only way to get a decent source of embers is not playing the game, but going to the store to open lootboxes? The few embers we get from weeklies aren't even close to what we can earn now playing cap level instances to acquire gear to ember. Fortunately we can speed up the process in the store?

> Motes and Embers will no longer convert to Figments of Splendour.

This is terrible. The store is the only way to get figments year round if the conversion is removed.

Exactly. My principle is not to gamble in game yet the drive to gambling in Lotro becomes worse. I rather pay LP knowing the item I buy then this. So why not add the box items directly to the store? What is wrong with actually seeing the items instead of gambling keys? Everybody would see the P2W? Everybody knows already. I would like the items from the barters but I don't need them.

Last LP sale I had to think hard before buying (due to special hobbit gifts unavailable except through gambling) and the more items you put behind gamble instead of directly in the store the less LP I need. And with the conversion gone I don't need the barter cosmetics. Players like me are not all of a sudden run to buy keys for a pet or housing item.

[Nubja]

oh yeah milk that cow a little more SSG. Gonna use this money to buy servers?

[scifispirit]

to a degree i think they have to convert it to motes. If you hit lvl cap and can just go barter a bunch of boxes you got a load of gear fast. Gotta worry more about actually getting embers now since SSG look to be money grabbing ba... well im sure you can fill in the rest.

I hear you and idk, maybe i just can't wrap my brain around this the way I should, but I take serious issue with them converting *what's already mine*. I currently have a thousand embers. I earned them. Pisses me off they are just gonna take them away. Convert stuff in boxes and instances and gear. Don't convert MY stuff straight outta MY wallet.

[Braer]

"improve the overall player experience" Only our glorious CM has the danglies to suggest that's the intent. All the "joy" one gets from opening a loot box I suppose! Still random bound to char gear tosh in them?

"When we increase the level cap, or during other large item level update intervals, all of your existing Embers of Enchantment will automatically become Motes."

What determines a large item level increase, +4 or with a quest pack/mini expansion? So having the currency waiting on an item level increase won't work because it all gets turned to motes that can only barter the same level gear you have already? No, get the new content asap and rush to open the slowly implemented Ember weeklies? Or stone up and forever ignore the last 10 levels of this fan fiction end game? Like walking around with someone's hand on the wallet in your pocket all day. Will coffer mechanics change too?

How many keys does it take for a full set of gear? What's the LP cost for enough keys? I must say the grind for embers has been a pain of late, LP farming might be the less tedious option for some now.

For myself with 7 or 8 characters a larger Embers capacity would have been more useful but not when I miss so many of the Update Announcements and face the potential of all embers disappearing over night. I assume the new trend to offer back ember bartered gear with motes on flaming to continue? Imagine the player experience feedback the day their 100,000 embers gets turned into motes! What's the point of a much bigger cap when everyone will spend it as soon as you gain enough to barter the piece you want.

The one thing I do agree with is stopping the transfer to figments that allowed players to make a choice to hamper their gear advances in favour of cosmetic gains but it's dwarfed by mixing advancement with cosmetics/fluff bought with LP in the store. But I guess the loot boxes are still going to provide a mix of currencies.


Just another increase in game inconvenience by the looks of it.

P.S. There is no way that Cordovan is looking forward to seeing our feedback on this unless he delights in our pain.

[ShireDweller]

I understand that embers will only come from new gear, but it pisses me off that they're gonna take the embers *we already earned* right out of our wallets and just make them motes. Leave our wallets alone!!! Change stuff we don't own in-game, fine, but what's in my wallet I EARNED. I frigging WORKED FOR it. And, honestly, how dare you just take it back.

I'm right there with you on this one.

[Fureo]

Since the introduction of Ashes it seems like you never really knew how to handle this ressource.
We went from no cap to 10.000. We got to a point where the value of disenchant got halfed because "there were to many instances to farm Ashes". Now we don't have a lot of instances at all.
We had fairly reasonable barter prices to insanely high prices in AD.
Since ever this system has no consistancy and it was introduced to balance RNG based drops from instances. The whole concept of endgame gear grind, is such a mess and i don't know, but as long as you don't tell us changes for the future it will get even worse.

[BotLike]

They increase the caps by 10x. You think the prices for items/cosmetic will stay the same ?
Big mistake.
The reason they increase the caps is to make currently earned embers less valuable. Fully capped embers won't even worth a single item after update 22.
I mean , if that's not their intention , what is ?

Also , something people seem to have missed : Embers won't last the whole level cap. Every ''major update'' they'll turn all embers into motes.
Each level cap has several major updates , their intention is 1 major update every 3 months. So every 3 months you start all over again , and instance loot is no longer an option.
We already got very few embers from instance loot , but now it will be zero.
You know what that mean ? It means most items each instance drops will be absolute trash. Even on highest difficulties. Poorly designed items ( which are a LOT ) will simply be a waste of bag space. You loot trash , you destroy trash , you move on.
Your best bet is to do the same boring dailies over and over again every 3 months , orrrrrrr...... surprise surprise , buy keys.

This is literally pay to win , it's disgusting. I hate pay to win , i hate personal loot , i'll do the raid and then quit this trash laggy and cashgrabbing game.

PS. In the next 1 month , they'll change a tiny bit of the announcement to act like they're listening to the playerbase. You'll see. Bottom line is , nothing will be better , only worse.

[wispsong]

"improve the overall player experience" Only our glorious CM has the danglies to suggest that's the intent. All the "joy" one gets from opening a loot box I suppose! Still random bound to char gear tosh in them?

"When we increase the level cap, or during other large item level update intervals, all of your existing Embers of Enchantment will automatically become Motes."

What determines a large item level increase, +4 or with a quest pack/mini expansion? So having the currency waiting on an item level increase won't work because it all gets turned to motes that can only barter the same level gear you have already? No, get the new content asap and rush to open the slowly implemented Ember weeklies? Or stone up and forever ignore the last 10 levels of this fan fiction end game? Like walking around with someone's hand on the wallet in your pocket all day. Will coffer mechanics change too?

How many keys does it take for a full set of gear? What's the LP cost for enough keys? I must say the grind for embers has been a pain of late, LP farming might be the less tedious option for some now.

For myself with 7 or 8 characters a larger Embers capacity would have been more useful but not when I miss so many of the Update Announcements and face the potential of all embers disappearing over night. I assume the new trend to offer back ember bartered gear with motes on flaming to continue? Imagine the player experience feedback the day their 100,000 embers gets turned into motes! What's the point of a much bigger cap when everyone will spend it as soon as you gain enough to barter the piece you want.

The one thing I do agree with is stopping the transfer to figments that allowed players to make a choice to hamper their gear advances in favour of cosmetic gains but it's dwarfed by mixing advancement with cosmetics/fluff bought with LP in the store. But I guess the loot boxes are still going to provide a mix of currencies.


Just another increase in game inconvenience by the looks of it.

What is wrong with choice? I still won't bother with gear advance because it's boring and never ending. I bought a piece here or there when needed and off-hands to stay under cap but no worry about that now.

[Feldanor]

I hear you and idk, maybe i just can't wrap my brain around this the way I should, but I take serious issue with them converting *what's already mine*. I currently have a thousand embers. I earned them. Pisses me off they are just gonna take them away. Convert stuff in boxes and instances and gear. Don't convert MY stuff straight outta MY wallet.

Id agree and will agree with your initial point 100% if the main way is to buy keys for boxes. Either way this whole announcement is trash