Changes to Motes/Ember/Figments

[ShireDweller]

And my spending will change due to this, not my playstyle.



Then maybe put them in the store where we see what we get for our LP.


I don't need more information; it is clear that they want every player to buy keys for a lucky chance. Not going to happen on my part. I wouldn't mind buying these items diectly in the store where I can see what I get for my money, but I won't gamble.



Ember prices are too high, and I prefer fluff that lasts over gear that expires. I wonder why they are so reluctant to sell directly in the store where I can get what I want and go instead this gambling route. I see the day coming then every item will be a gamble and then I won't need any more LP.

For all the disdain GW2 gets when people refer to it as "Fashion Wars", the way they handle cosmetics is pretty much what you're asking for here. They are in the store for gems, which you don't have to spend real money for, you can purchase gems with in-game gold. The store outfit preview function lets you see what it looks like on your character. There are a LOT of cosmetics and I have no doubt that they bring in a lot of revenue.

Some items are initially available only via lootbox, then move to the regular store on a rotating basis. You can earn one lootbox key per week by doing the first chapter of the personal story after reaching level 10 (super quick to do). Lots of people keep an extra character slot for their weekly key run. I do this and save up the keys to open the boxes twice a year (birthday and Christmas). Lootboxes drop from mobs in the game so they build up pretty quickly (they stack in your inventory).

I've never yet purchased store cosmetics b/c the gear you can get in game is nice-looking enough for me.

[Curuer_Bauglir]

I mentioned some of the sources in the reply post, but generally speaking: landscape quests, instance quests, Reward Track, Events, in addition to expanding on existing sources, these're all places we can look to include for more sources of Figments and Embers.

If your answer is you can look into more sources for figments, then you obviously made these changes without a plan to deal with the consequences of your changes.

If players choose to spend LP on lootboxes, that's been their choice for a long time.

You conveniently leave out that players have long had a choice to either commit the time and effort to complete content OR bypass the effort and spend LP on lootboxes in order to obtain what they desire. You are removing a significant source of figments and leaving players very little choice but the lootboxes. Again, you can't claim that buying lootboxes is a player choice when you are almost completely removing the alternative choice. It becomes a necessity at that point.

[Nicname]

I think it's fair to say that we have to keep improving our loot system and these changes won't work by themselves. LOTRO is a big game, and these currencies affect huge chunks of it in varying ways. I'm comfortable saying we'll keep taking feedback and working to improve the looting system, but we have limited resources, and I'm not convinced these changes by themselves wouldn't alleviate some of the issues you're describing as well.

I think many players (not speaking for cosmetic collectors) have their biggest concern regarding the Loot system. The anger towards Ember changes is mainly coming from a point where the lootsystem is kind of wrecked and feels unrewarding because after spending tremendous amount of effort to complete certain content RNG kicks in and says - try again next week and (especially when you haven't hit farm status on a certain Boss) spend 4 hours; again!
Especially in a raid (for example AD where you had dozens of different BiS Items but a specific class has usually one specific BiS Item they're aiming for) and out of 12 people just two receive an Item, and hopefully it's not ####... That's nowhere near motivating to run this content again. That's the reason why people aim for completions and grind for embers, because it feels more rewarding than the current loot system.

Just an idea - most of the folks I play with, of whom many are Endgame raiders (any tier covered) still consider Throne of dread terror lootsystem as one of the best the game has ever had. Most of them don't have a clue of why it's been abolished. Maybe look at that one.

Conclusion: i guess many would swallow that embers pill, but not before there are significant changes to the current loot system. because embers revamp and current lootsystem at the same time - that ain't gonna work.

[spaltung]

If players choose to spend LP on lootboxes, that's been their choice for a long time. But those're supplemental options - are focus is on better aligning the experience.

What a player want it's not necessarely what's best for the game in the long-term (maybe it's the best for the short-term business strategy).

For example, there are tons of players that want flying mounts and would pay any amount of insane cash for them.

But SSG won't create and sell them through the LP market even if a large playerbase is able to pay up to 30k LP for them (something like $300), because that's not aligned with SSG's ethics, and by ethics i don't mean morals: i mean the position that SSG assumes in relationship to its playerbase. What some players want at the expense of what other players do not want.

Most players won't leave the game if they don't get to participate in a hardcore p2w monetization by buying a fully geared endgame toon, but the players that do not respect that (and also pay for expansions and main content), will definitively leave sooner or later (which represents a long-term lose for SSG). Same example applies to flying mounts and why SSG wouldn't dare to implement them into the game for lots of LP even if there's a large part of the playerbase that would pay for it.

So, creating gaps, needs, demands and giving back solutions it's part of what SSG does to monetize the game (and any mmorpg also does this), but what players want to spend money on it's not a measure to decide what's the right angle for an update and its monetization.

[Finlia]

I am in favor of NOT buying gear using currency gained from outside of the instance/appropriate tier. Gear only acquirable by running the content its meant for is great - the ember barters as they exist are an issue (though perhaps simply waiting to introduce the barter until the gear is not BiS would be a better solution to that aspect).

However this begs the question, why are embers being removed from instances and raids completely? I would rather the current system where one is able to buy T3 gear after doing it once and farming T1 than from farming solo and casual content (festivals, deeds, weeklies etc.). This seems even worse? The currency to buy gear is completely detached from the content and supposed source of gear.

Also please keep in mind that a single completion to access a barter and thus be able to buy all gear is something there is a significant market for. Based on the barters at 130 cap it was quite popular and largely illegitimate. I don't mean the exploits but rather the real world exchange of money for the service of a completion.

[Neinda]

Just an FYI to the devs. It is very difficult to find anyone willing to run the new instances T1 and T2. The T3 and above set mostly have their gear and have little interest in helping the rest of us. Playing this game should be better than your run of the mill mobile phone game. Somewhere along the line you decided we all would prefer repetitive tasks day in and day out instead of the game. You eventually give everyone free access to the content so buying the expansions is only worth the early access. Now the expansion only gives repetitive tasks and instances people won't run because of low end rewards. The embers grind can happen without ever getting the expansion. Why pay for an expansion when you get the best armor by farming shards and running old missions? You want us to pay but as customers we deserve something in return for paying. I am not asking for free stuff but when the FTP player has better armor and weapons without setting foot in the new area and you ask me to pay, there is an issue here. Give those of us who pay for content and VIP actual perks above and beyond a mobile mail box and subscriber box.

[Harvain]

I can't speak to what was happening beforehand, but I can confidently say I was the one who pushed these changes.

Now this isn't an insult or anything mostly a: Maybe it would be smart to put at least this Update 32 Plan on hold for a time.



I don't have proper Stats akin to SSG to give numbers to make my case and Views in the example is what I saw when typing this Post but if we're going based off the Dec 2020 EG7 Report of 108,000 Accounts Logging in Monthly as a basis:

- This Thread alone has 30,116 Views. This would be 27.8% of the overall potential LOTRO Community has looked at this Thread.

- Posts in this thread are just under 500 Posts so is well under 1% but this isn't unusual as most folks don't Post.

But the general theme is Negative.



Now to give LOTRO somewhat favorable numbers, we'll say LOTRO was seeing double it's Dec 2020 numbers and just round it out at 200,000 Accounts Logging in Monthly:

- 30,116 views would be 15% of the potential LOTRO Community has looked at just this Thread.

- Posts are even further below 1%.

But the general theme is Negative.

Edit: And just to add to these numbers. Cordovan's Announcement for this has 20,680 Views. Granted these will have overlapped but just a quick example:

- This would be 50,796 Views total. That is 47% of the Dec 2020 108,000 Accounts Logging in Monthly.

- Same 50,796 Views. That is 25.3% of the example 200,000 Accounts Logging in Monthly as LOTRO's numbers did seem higher in 2021.

So there is a significant portion of the LOTRO Community in less than 48 Hours who have seen both Cordovan's Announcement + This Thread.



LOTRO DOES need changes and yes the Ember/Motes/Figments Currencies did need changes but personal opinion this could have waited until later and definitely handled differently.

While this is a "Ripping the Band-Aid Off" which LOTRO does need, I think most would agree that this might not have been the area to start with especially when LOTRO's Game Performance is still unfavorable to the LOTRO Community as a whole, granted some folks have never encountered issues others report on almost the daily. So to folks who have posted in this Thread, SSG are telling them that while the Game is have varying Performance, SSG is telling them that they want more Money shelled out or at the very least a move that from the get go has been viewed as such.

At least to myself and I've seen other in-game, LOTRO Forums, Youtube, Twitch, Steam LOTRO Forums, etc have all had one fairly common agreement about LOTRO & SSG in 2022:

- Focus on getting the Game Performance better.

- Focus on improving the Monetization Process and giving reasons for folks to naturally WANT to spend Money. (Granted certain things SSG can't fix such as a Person in X Country being unable to Pay due to issues outside SSG's Control).

- Improve Gameplay Aspects and lessen the Grind a bit and not having so much of a focus on Daily "You have to do this or fall behind" Mechanics. (Grind is apart of any Game that offers ways to get New Items, Cosmetics, Levels, etc but having a balance where folks don't feel overwhelmed or feeling like their Game is fully moving into Grind-Focused Gameplay should be the constant goal).

- And the biggest point: Get the Game in better shape and start bringing more Players in.



Which anyone reading this Thread be they SSG or the LOTRO Community can fairly see, most folks don't view this Update 32 Currency Change as something that is helping achieve: Better Game Performance, Improving the Monetization Process for folks to naturally WANT to spend Money, Improve Gameplay Aspects & Lessen the Grind a bit and Bringing in more Players.

In fact, most are pointing out it has nothing to do with Game Performance, it's worsening the Monetization Process and giving reasons to NOT WANT to spend Money, it is a change for how things work but folks are stating it's not improving Gameplayer Aspects nor Lessening the Grind but in fact giving reasons not to do X Content and increasing the Grind and the biggest likely issue it'll have is it won't be a reason for more Players to come to LOTRO, it will be a reason NOT to touch LOTRO with all other ongoing negative factors.

Folks want to give LOTRO & SSG Money but not in such a manner I think is the best way to summarize the reactions to this Thread.

[scifispirit]

Alright, gonna go ahead and see if I can provide some answers and context on stuff here. I was the big driver of this change, so any frustrations or questions can be (politely) directed at me and I'll do my best to address it. Any successes are the team's. I don't ever really remember to look at my Private Messages, so I encourage you to keep responding to this thread, and I'll continue to read and respond as I'm able.

I've picked out a few consistent concerns and questions I've seen, and resp



I think it's fair to say we could've done more to indicate our intentions, so let me do so here. There were a few different reasons we wanted to make these changes:

Embers:
- The purpose of Embers was to act as a way to mitigate being unlucky with RNG. However, what it turned into was the fastest and best way to get the gear. We don't want players to run things that aren't the content the gear comes from as their primary way of getting that gear. In looking at why this was happening, the disenchanting of gear from any tier of any group instance was obviously where the bulk of Embers were coming from, in a way that really pushed players to grind to maximize their time. And especially, grind lower tier content to get higher tier gear. So that's why we removed the gear disenchant option to Embers. We'll have more ways to earn Embers when this goes live, and we'll be balancing around how many Embers a player can earn without opening lootboxes, as that's how most players play and we want to make sure you're still able to consistently get the gear you want... but the way we want you to get most of your pieces is by running the content where it drops.

- Embers being barterable into Motes and Figments never made a lot of sense to me, and in discussions with the team and observing player interactions, led to a lot of unintentional consequences we didn't like. Most players were converting into these other currencies because they were hitting the cap so often, and didn't really value them. This is generally ok for Motes - I'll explain why below - but less so for Figments - which I'll also explain below. Removing the ability to losslessly barter these currencies allowed us to feel much more comfortable raising the caps dramatically - of everything besides Figments, which I'll explain below. Breaking apart this relationship meant that we could better tailor rewards to players and give them good amounts of each of those things without having to worry that we were giving them game-breaking amounts, for example, so now we have the opportunity to give you Embers in places where it makes sense you'd care about them, and know that you're going to use them on the cap-level gear.

- The versioning is important for a few reasons:
1. It gives us a lot more flexibility to raise the currency cap, because if something goes wrong in a particular cycle and we give out too many sources of Embers, we can be comfortable that we haven't wrecked progression for Updates to come.
2. Similarly - and the reason the cap existed in the first place - Embers were a currency that only ever increased in value as you kept it. The best times to spend it were either when you were capped out or in the next Update, because the gear in the future would generally be better than the gear in the past. That turned it a completely different thing than we wanted it for. As mentioned above, the goal for Embers is to give you a way to mitigate bad luck, but if spending it is often the wrong move long term, it doesn't feel great no matter what you do with it. Versioning Embers into Motes lets us make it clear what Embers are for and give you lossless value without making you want to hoard it forever.
3. One of the issues we ran into was that in order to properly price new gear, we had to keep moving the price up and up until you basically needed to have Embers capped to spend it. This wasn't exactly a great experience for players. Versioning lets us maintain more consistent pricing, limits how much we need to increase prices as we roll out smaller content updates, and make it such that we can set them more sensibly in general. Even though we're increasing the cap by an order of magnitude, prices won't increase to match.
4. Versioning specifically Motes also lets us re-establish Motes as the catch up currency - more below - and lets us move gear that won't be top-end into Motes at that time, so it'll be even easier for players to catch up.

- We're going to add more sources of Embers. Some of those will be new repeatables, but we can now also do more one-off grants from different sources, such as landscape quests - the Epic, for example - and the Reward Track. One-off grants will generally be bigger than any of the repeatables, but now they'll be valuable and won't feel nearly as bad to get, where before a one-off could've easily overwhelmed your capped amount. Similarly, we won't be just multiplying the pricing by 10x as we did the cap, so you'll still gain value from these.

Motes
- The purpose of Motes was to essentially be a catch up currency, either for yourself or for your alts. You can also use it to get gear that has cosmetics you value. Now that we'll be versioning more consistently, we can do a better job of shifting stuff over to Motes more often so catch up is easier, and it gives us the opportunity to do more consolidation.

- With Motes no longer being barterable, we can also add more catch up things to it, like the Enhancement Runes mentioned in the announcement. This is something I'm personally pretty excited for, as it opens up a lot of great possibilities for improving the pre-cap experience. We're discussing more ways of taking advantage of that, and will have more to announce in the future.

- Motes are going to still be available to disenchant from gear because we want to maintain the Motes sourcing, even when you're doing max content. Motes will be pretty easily and reliable gained from multiple sources.

- Because of all this, we want to make it easier for you to hold onto a lot of Motes, so we've dramatically increased the cap to match. There's also an element of protection here to make sure we don't accidentally overdo it, but we're not versioning Motes to anything else.

Figments
- We're looking at the pricing structure we currently have. Giving the player a bigger cap will make it a bit easier for us to adjust pricing, but we're not planning to double the cap and then double all the costs, there's no value in doing so. We aren't increasing or changing Figments as dramatically because they're still an eternal currency in this model - however many you earn today is as many as you'll have until you spend it. And similar to how Embers are, whenever we add new cosmetics to the barterers, they're available for Figments directly, so your Figments have nominally infinite value. Of course, cosmetics tend to be a bit more subjective than power comparisons, so we expect that most players will get a bit choosier in terms of what cosmetics they prioritize. This is definitely trickiest for players who liked to collect 'em all, but we'll keep an eye on that and see what we can do.

- We're also going to add more sources for Figments, just like are with Embers, again such as with landscape quests and the Reward Track. We'll keep an eye on how acquisition looks for those, as we want to avoid the problems that caused us to make the change for Embers.



We can certainly debate this, but I don't think that's what the end result will be. If we find that players can't acquire gear consistently by playing the game, we'll adjust to improve that.



Yes, the current other Ember sources will continue to work. And as mentioned above, we'll continue to add Embers in more places.



I mostly explained this above, but caps give us flexibility for pricing while also giving us protection in case we make sourcing that currency too easy. That's why the caps have been low for these currencies until now (and why it remains lower on Figments).



I don't think that's what'll happen, but we'll see how it plays out. Part of the goal with this is to increase the value of running the instances that have the gear you want, and to make that the primary way to get gear. Right now, Embers are the best way to get the gear you want, not playing content.



So this certainly isn't true for Motes, based on what we described. It's less true for Embers, though of course we are removing some of the "normal" - by which I assume you mean "current" - ways of getting them, but as I've said above, we're adding new ones with 32 and beyond. Figments are definitely in the trickiest position here, but we'll be adding new ways to earn them as well. We'll see how that plays out and adjust as needed.



We expect that most players won't hit the Ember cap like they're used to, but that's ok, because we also expect them to more consistently use their Embers as well, which is the goal. We certainly don't plan on making them ridiculously easy to obtain, but we are going to add more ways to get them.



Figments will still be available from Festivals, and we'll be adding additional sources in 32, such as with the Reward Track. We'll do landscape quests in the future, not sure if any of those will reward Figments in 32.



No, these'll be disenchantable into Motes, not Embers. Only Adventurer's Gear will disenchant into Embers.



Repeatable sources of Embers will be more frequent, but I don't think we'd put that amount on boss chests.



Plus additional sources we add.



It'll still contribute to Mote accrual, but not Embers.



We'll see some price growth, but Ember prices will probably stabilize at 2-3x of current prices. We'll see how that plays out. Mote prices probably won't change at all. Figment prices are more variable, but we're not talking about a 2x increase there.



To be clear, that's not the intent. We still want players to get the game and get the gear. But we want y'all to play where that gear drops more, as opposed to farming easy content to get the hard gear after earning the deed.



More power to ya. Enjoy your break, we'll be here when you're ready to come back.

I'll try and come back to this thread periodically over the next few days!

I have an issue that doesn't seem to have been addressed here. It has be quite angry so I'm hoping you can clarify this, Raninia. In the original announcement, it was stated that the embers IN OUR WALLETS would be changed into Motes with each big update. This, to me, is offensive on multiple levels.

Now, I cannot (and will not) comment on the other changes being made. So many people have issues, and while I happen to agree with each and every one of them, I am not a game developer; I have limited understanding of how a game or MMO must be worked internally to get things to play correctly. I, myself, am a VIP with over 9 years in this game. I have a few alts, but my main is currently lvl 138, and I'm working through Gundabad. So, game mechanics, as I say, are not something I feel qualified to comment on, but gameplay is something I am familiar enough with. And I can say, with absolute certainty, that each and every one of those Embers IN MY WALLET are ones that I EARNED in this game. In some cases, I busted my a$$ to get the weeklies done or run group missions, which, for me, is a big deal since I tend to be extremely introverted and solo when I play. And, I will say (and this may gain me some enemies here as I am learning as I read how frowned upon this is) that a few of those Embers were obtained from purchasing a Lootbox Key with the specific intention of opening an Adventurer's Lootbox knowing I would SPECIFICALLY get a stash of Embers upon opening.

In fact, I have done this just last Friday. I had a weak piece of armor and wanted to get a coffer from the Adventurer's Gear Vendor to upgrade. I saw I was a few Embers shy of being able to get a box, so since it was Friday which is payday for me, I splurged on myself, bought some LOTRO points, and got a few keys to buy the boxes that had dropped from running around in Gundabad. (Again, to all reading this, I'm learning now how damaging this is to the game and will stop doing this. I'm sorry I ever contributed to the whole pay2win mentality). My point is, I spent money to purchase the keys to SPECIFICALLY get a few Embers. And, now, I'm reading that within a month these Embers are going to be taken away from me. I guess, my first question is, at this point... EXCUSE ME??

Let me be clear, the Embers in my wallet, in ANYONE'S WALLET are ones that we EARNED in the game. We earned them through either gameplay (ie with our TIME) or we earned them with our MONEY by purchasing keys. Either way, they are OURS. I fail to see how you, or any game developer, thinks it is on any level ok to take away something that we have actually earned and spent time and/or money on. This is wrong.

If you feel it is somehow necessary to change how these Embers are obtained in the future, then that is on you. Players may agree or disagree, (I personally disagree with all of these changes), but I'm not here to comment on that. There are plenty of other people here far more articulate than I doing a much better job of that than I ever could. But, the Embers WE HAVE ALREADY OBTAINED should not be taken away from us. And, if they are, then I suppose my next question to you, Raninia, is how am I supposed to respond to finding out that within a month of me deliberately choosing to spend actual money in the LOTRO store on keys with the specific intention of getting a few Embers that those Embers are going to be taken away and changed into Motes??!! My character is lvl 138, I have no need for Motes. My alts are not something I want to gear up in any way. I would not, nor would I EVER have spent actual money on LOTRO points to get the keys just for Motes. When you take the Embers away from me, can I get the money back that I just spent to get them??!!! Perhaps if this announcement was for changes happening much farther in the future, it might be tolerable, but this is insulting, honestly. It is inconsiderate and underhanded to take something away from players that is meant to specifically belong to them.

All these changes happening have so many people unhappy. I do not like the Mote to Figments conversion being taken away. I do not like a lot of things, to be honest, but it is so wrong to change what is in our wallets. The only way for something to have gotten in our wallets in the first place is either through gameplay (TIME) or purchasing keys (MONEY). And, it's almost as if you're saying that neither of those things matter. I really hope that is not the case. So, please, I implore you, reconsider the notion of taking or changing anything that is ALREADY in our own personal wallets. It is ours. Some of us work harder than others, but we all work because we enjoy this game. What's in our wallets is what's evidence of that and taking it away is like taking all that enjoyment away; all of our hard earned (or even money-spent purchased) rewards. Either way, they are ours, and this is wrong.

[JERH]

Changing embers into motes happened in Ered Mithrin, and MM though not Gundabad. I went into Gundabad with 0 embers just in case. This change would mean it happens approximately every 3 months instead of yearly or at 2 years (level cap increases). Not good but not a new "feature".

The threats to unsub and stop buying lootboxes have been made by the forum community many times in the past (aka, SoE changes, ...). Apparently the internal data on SSG is that the program they have been consistently working on to maximize MC/key purchases is working. Otherwise these "improvements" (LMAO) like this one wouldn't keep happening every 6 months or so.

The discussion is interesting and in my personal opinion most of the criticism points are valid as a player (not necessarily if I were an SSG manager). While many changes (such as tier limiting SoEs) seem to have been targeted to specific player segments (Throne wasn't tier limited) this set of changes appears to be targeted across pretty much all segments of the game from cosmetics to casual to raiders (except for whales).

Warhammer 3 comes out in February. Hopefully FFXIV will get it's expanded server farm in order and allow new users soon. Spring is a busy time for me and gaming time goes way down anyway in a few months. Playing this game is a choice of entertainment NOT my goal in life. I will continue killing orcs when I feel like it at whatever level until I don't feel like it.

Edit: Found the posts that said Gundabad did NOT convert embers to motes. Thanks!

[Vilan]

In fact, I have done this just last Friday. I had a weak piece of armor and wanted to get a coffer from the Adventurer's Gear Vendor to upgrade. I saw I was a few Embers shy of being able to get a box, so since it was Friday which is payday for me, I splurged on myself, bought some LOTRO points, and got a few keys to buy the boxes that had dropped from running around in Gundabad.

To be fair to Raninia, he did say that when your embers get bumped down to motes, any gear currently available for embers will also get bumped down to motes. So you SHOULD still be able to get that coffer after the bump... and even more easily, since any motes you happen to have will also be available to buy it. Though to be fair to you, whether or not there will be "140 motes coffers" and "140 ember coffers" available is not completely clear.

Changing embers into motes happened in Ered Mithrin, MM, and Gundabad. I went into Gundabad with 0 embers due to that. This change would mean it happens approximately every 3 months instead of yearly or at 2 years (level cap increases). Not good but not a new "feature".

Didn't happen to me for Gundabad. I have about 6k embers sitting in my wallet from MM. Level 131, don't even own Gundabad.

[Thugalvald]

SSG think farming 30 laggy missions per day with a 2mn lag on NPC each time you want to return a quest is the easy way.

On another side, getting your credit card out of the wallet and entering your numbers is the hard way.

One takes 3h per day for a few months and the other one takes 1mn everytime you want.

They are just acting as usual, mocking and direspecting their players.

[Neinda]

This embers change really only harms those of us who are willing to pay for game content. Those that farm LOTRO points will still farm them and buy keys and have the best armor. Those same individuals will probably also stock up on the armor boxes and just hold them until they upgrade. Those same individuals won't lose their embers and they won't need to pay for VIP or current content since farming lotro points and buying keys and hoarding boxes will get them more than those of us who pay for things. I wonder if anyone at SSG has ever looked at the number of people who create, power level and delete characters just to earn LOTRO points and get everything in game for free. This embers and figments change enables that type of behavior and punishes the paying customers. In the mean time...........us paying customers are doing the same repetitive tasks over and over and over again for months just to get a taste of what is out there.

[ShireDweller]

It's all about joy, remember? The Joy of Opening Lootboxes! They didn't specify who gets that joy tho...

[Sovereign50]

@Raninia

Thread is currently over 30k views with almost 500 replies in a few days. Sure looks like there are murmurings amongst the Free Peoples of LOTRO and that Sauron should be concerned by the potential mobilisation, especially while he (and his arguments) remain insubstantial.

[Mirhaen]

Embers:
- The purpose of Embers was to act as a way to mitigate being unlucky with RNG.

Why do we even have RNG? Box to choose from or barter option, as we had it before, was asked to be back time and time again. Keep us busy with fun content, not with RNG.

However, what it turned into was the fastest and best way to get the gear. We don't want players to run things that aren't the content the gear comes from as their primary way of getting that gear. In looking at why this was happening, the disenchanting of gear from any tier of any group instance was obviously where the bulk of Embers were coming from, in a way that really pushed players to grind to maximize their time. And especially, grind lower tier content to get higher tier gear.

The game got increasingly more and more grindy. Most of us have limited time for play. Put those two together and I think it's really self-explanatory.

So that's why we removed the gear disenchant option to Embers. We'll have more ways to earn Embers when this goes live, and we'll be balancing around how many Embers a player can earn without opening lootboxes, as that's how most players play and we want to make sure you're still able to consistently get the gear you want... but the way we want you to get most of your pieces is by running the content where it drops.

Only it is not consistent and it doesn't really drop, right? Aside from mentioned RNG issues, might be a high time to check your loot tables also.

Embers being barterable into Motes and Figments never made a lot of sense to me, and in discussions with the team and observing player interactions, led to a lot of unintentional consequences we didn't like. Most players were converting into these other currencies because they were hitting the cap so often, and didn't really value them.

Well you might have jumped onto wrong conclusion there. All currencies had a cap so just to unload embers to cap some other currency that we won't use, doesn't make sense. My experience is that people barter simply to obtain other desired items.

I am a VIP player (yearly sub), I pay every expansion with cash, and I buy points regularly. Can play the game without most of it. My idea was to keep supporting the game more than I need for just myself and my own needs. Truly I do not need 6 premium houses and loads of other fluff. But here is the thing, you (plural) went on and limited my game play in literally every possible way that you could think of. It has now crossed borders of what I consider acceptable. Throughout years, especially last few years, many complaints but also many great suggestions were made on how to improve various issues, and how to make the game more FUN again above all, instead of being on a level of having a second job. If you finally start reading and implementing some of those suggestions, I'm quite sure you will benefit more.

[Feoh]

Seriously, are you trying to drive players away? What in the name of Samwise Gamgee are you doing? Fix the lag before you screw with anything else.

[Cordovan]

Thank you to everyone who has provided us with extensive feedback over the past couple of days! We've been discussing things in-house and we've decided to put these plans on hold for now. If we do end up moving in a new direction regarding Embers, Figments, and Motes of Enchantment in the future we will make sure to incorporate as much of your feedback as we can. For now, the system as it currently exists today will remain in-place, and the changes related to this subject that were previewed on Bullroarer will not be in our next game update. Thanks!

[Arnenna]

You've managed to spark the ire of almost everyone in this game. However, we here are just a bubble that doesn't represent the wider community. Or are we?

Just concede this is a terrible idea and scrap it. Yup, take the heat, go back to the drawing board and address issues players care about.


Idk

How about removing raid locks entirely.
How about ending the panic "get it now or lose" mentality.
How about ending the erasure of efforts gained.
How about stop trying to reinvent this wheel.


You've misjudged this game's player base. "We" as a general rule don't care about phone nickel and dime games. Many here came to be here because of who created this story universe. Pokemon doesn't live here.

Well, technically we are a small bubble of the wider community, but using the words "doesn't represent" was all kinds of wrong. We may only be a proportion of the playerbase and yes, that "could" mean that there are many players in game that don't agree with our views, but equally, it may mean that there "could" be a proportion of players in game that do.

We'll see the results when this hits live.

Assuming that "wider community" who are merely absent from the forum (absence cannot assume a side either way) will be fine or even ok with these changes, or any changes, which is what that statement throws out, is like a frog and boiling water.

Edit: Ahh, i see Cord has posted while I was typing this post. New response further down.

[Harvain]

Thank you to everyone who has provided us with extensive feedback over the past couple of days! We've been discussing things in-house and we've decided to put these plans on hold for now. If we do end up moving in a new direction regarding Embers, Figments, and Motes of Enchantment in the future we will make sure to incorporate as much of your feedback as we can. For now, the system as it currently exists today will remain in-place, and the changes related to this subject that were previewed on Bullroarer will not be in our next game update. Thanks!

Well, thankfully SSG put this on hold.

This was the smart move to do.

SSG either way has taken a hit but you've avoided a larger series of blows but I think this sums up the LOTRO Community:

[Arnenna]

Thank you to everyone who has provided us with extensive feedback over the past couple of days! We've been discussing things in-house and we've decided to put these plans on hold for now. If we do end up moving in a new direction regarding Embers, Figments, and Motes of Enchantment in the future we will make sure to incorporate as much of your feedback as we can. For now, the system as it currently exists today will remain in-place, and the changes related to this subject that were previewed on Bullroarer will not be in our next game update. Thanks!

Good move . . . also, for now.

[Neinda]

The powers here in Middle Earth really need to take a new look at their business model and think about where they are going. Remember back in the First Age when you used to coordinate with players and the LOTRO community? It may be time to time travel back to that age and engage with the community.

In the past few months you have given us new shiny weapons with use by dates. The weapons that we keep forever but have maximum use levels and will be useless come the next cap increase.

Now we get unattainable armor which only those that buy keys or farm shards in previous areas and run missions can obtain.

The wonderful ingredient packs you make available don't work on any of the new armor recipes but we can buy the special crafting items to make that armor in the store using LOTRO points. The boxes I bought and placed in my yard for ingredient packs are pretty useless as the ingredient packs don't work on new items.

Yes, you need to make money. Maybe it would be better to include the player base in determining the best way to convince us to open our wallets and part with our money.

Just think, with this change you made armor unattainable for most of the player base and we are still waiting for the seasonal system that will supposedly upgrade our weapons and give us the needed higher level traceries. The new instances are pretty much dead already as they don't drop anything useful.

What do you think will happen when we all find out that we have to pay extra money to have functional weapons on top of paying for loot box keys that might give us shards and maybe armor someday? You have a very loyal player base. Include the players in the process. I am sure there are many out here who can help you come up with items people will pay for in game. Then maybe we can go back to a game that people play.


Edit: I see that things changed for now while I was typing away. To the devs: Please think about reinstating the past practice of a player based community group to give you feedback. It was not a perfect system but it did help. When you pull in the different types of players for input you get a better picture of what we will pay for in game.

[DroboTheDwarf]

Thank you to everyone who has provided us with extensive feedback over the past couple of days! We've been discussing things in-house and we've decided to put these plans on hold for now. If we do end up moving in a new direction regarding Embers, Figments, and Motes of Enchantment in the future we will make sure to incorporate as much of your feedback as we can. For now, the system as it currently exists today will remain in-place, and the changes related to this subject that were previewed on Bullroarer will not be in our next game update. Thanks!

A BIG Thank You for putting this on hold. This was very ill-conceived and in this players opinion not well thought through from a players perspective.

[Sovereign50]

Thank you to everyone who has provided us with extensive feedback over the past couple of days! We've been discussing things in-house and we've decided to put these plans on hold for now. If we do end up moving in a new direction regarding Embers, Figments, and Motes of Enchantment in the future we will make sure to incorporate as much of your feedback as we can. For now, the system as it currently exists today will remain in-place, and the changes related to this subject that were previewed on Bullroarer will not be in our next game update. Thanks!

I would like to welcome this news, but I can't. It feels like it's just a delay that'll end up diffusing the same, or similar, system over time. Goodwill needs to be generated before this is trustworthy as anything positive for the customer base.

I can read this as "If we do end up moving in a new direction...we'll incorporate...feedback", and if you don't move in another direction? Does this mean you'll simply pursue the folly espoused mere days ago?

[Ayvri]

Thank you to everyone who has provided us with extensive feedback over the past couple of days! We've been discussing things in-house and we've decided to put these plans on hold for now. If we do end up moving in a new direction regarding Embers, Figments, and Motes of Enchantment in the future we will make sure to incorporate as much of your feedback as we can. For now, the system as it currently exists today will remain in-place, and the changes related to this subject that were previewed on Bullroarer will not be in our next game update. Thanks!

A smart and prudent move. Thank you for listening.

[Caladria-Gr]

Thank you to everyone who has provided us with extensive feedback over the past couple of days! We've been discussing things in-house and we've decided to put these plans on hold for now. If we do end up moving in a new direction regarding Embers, Figments, and Motes of Enchantment in the future we will make sure to incorporate as much of your feedback as we can. For now, the system as it currently exists today will remain in-place, and the changes related to this subject that were previewed on Bullroarer will not be in our next game update. Thanks!

How about you increase the currency cap (not to 100k, but something less) anyway as a sign of goodwill and acknowledgement of your errors?