Pay to Win Endgame

[legolas988]

Unless I am completely reading this post wrong, what Cord is saying is that The only way we can get embers as of Update 32 is from Lootboxes (Pay to win) and from weeklies (1,500 total a week per toon). After grinding these two ways, for those with only one or two characters max level and actively doing runs, will be forced to buy loot boxes to get the new and improved gear... and on top of all of this, all of the embers we work so hard to earn (or pay for) will be wiped when the next big item level jump occurs. I can understand wiping the embers off of players when expansions release so that nobody is instantly geared on release, but several times during an expansion makes absolutely no sense! This is making Raiders from all over want to quit! We feel like our time and money are being wasted.

[spaltung]

Unless I am completely reading this post wrong, what Cord is saying is that The only way we can get embers as of Update 32 is from Lootboxes (Pay to win) and from weeklies (1,500 total a week per toon). After grinding these two ways, for those with only one or two characters max level and actively doing runs, will be forced to buy loot boxes to get the new and improved gear... and on top of all of this, all of the embers we work so hard to earn (or pay for) will be wiped when the next big item level jump occurs. I can understand wiping the embers off of players when expansions release so that nobody is instantly geared on release, but several times during an expansion makes absolutely no sense! This is making Raiders from all over want to quit! We feel like our time and money are being wasted.

if that's the case SSG must be desperated.

lol, it seems like they're stucked back in 2008 when p2w was actually viable because no one knew its long-term damage.

now after 14 years of experience of p2w systems killing every single game in the market they just go for it like it's just another generic mobile mmo game that will die in 1 year.

[wispsong]

Unless I am completely reading this post wrong, what Cord is saying is that The only way we can get embers as of Update 32 is from Lootboxes (Pay to win) and from weeklies (1,500 total a week per toon). After grinding these two ways, for those with only one or two characters max level and actively doing runs, will be forced to buy loot boxes to get the new and improved gear... and on top of all of this, all of the embers we work so hard to earn (or pay for) will be wiped when the next big item level jump occurs. I can understand wiping the embers off of players when expansions release so that nobody is instantly geared on release, but several times during an expansion makes absolutely no sense! This is making Raiders from all over want to quit! We feel like our time and money are being wasted.

Sad part is though that a character needs embers for 131+ gear, not just end game gear. Motes are no good if the player is 131 and realizes that s/he needs better gear. Ran into the problem at 121 with one of my characters trying to quest in Vales without having done Ered mithrin.

[johnwood]

This is making Raiders from all over want to quit! We feel like our time and money are being wasted.

It is.

[Baritone]

Its obvious with the new LI system and the riddance of vitality stacking that gear and essences have taken a back seat to traceries for the main source of customization. I dont see this change being that big of a deal, the reward system coming for LIs is much more important

[Pavlin]

Unless I am completely reading this post wrong

No, you didnt read it wrong.

[ReneKiller1]

1. The game is mainly PvE so there is not really an ultimate "win" and for the PvP part there is special PvP gear which is definitly more suited for PvP.
2. The adventurer's gear is definitly not BiS (best-in-slot) gear (maybe except from the shields and offhand weapons, which means 0 to 2 adventurer's chests depending on the class, which is definitly managable by doing dailies/weeklies).
3. You don't need adventurer's gear for leveling or getting in instances. Example: I have already two characters mostly equipped with T3/4/5 stuff from the 3-mans without buying anyhting with embers. My way to go for gearing up is: landscape -> crafting/reputation vendors -> 3-mans on T2/T3 -> 3-mans on T4/T5 -> 6-mans T2/T3.
4. The gear from instance vendors is tier-gated. That means, you already have completed the instance on said tier before you are able to spend embers on it's gear and most likely are able to complete it again for farming loot. Sure, it may be slower than buying everything with embers but it's far away from impossible.
5. If you don't want to run instances for gear, you also don't need the instance gear as it is only used to play said instances on a higher tier.

To put it all together: the ember system changes might slow things down when gearing up. But I don't see a single point, where you are forced to buy lootboxes to reach the next step.

PS: I can't say much about the figments changes as I'm not really interested in cosmetics. That part may be really bad for the "collect it all" type of player depending on the additional new sources of figments.

[Nicname]

1. The game is mainly PvE so there is not really an ultimate "win" and for the PvP part there is special PvP gear which is definitly more suited for PvP.
2. The adventurer's gear is definitly not BiS (best-in-slot) gear (maybe except from the shields and offhand weapons, which means 0 to 2 adventurer's chests depending on the class, which is definitly managable by doing dailies/weeklies).
3. You don't need adventurer's gear for leveling or getting in instances. Example: I have already two characters mostly equipped with T3/4/5 stuff from the 3-mans without buying anyhting with embers. My way to go for gearing up is: landscape -> crafting/reputation vendors -> 3-mans on T2/T3 -> 3-mans on T4/T5 -> 6-mans T2/T3.
4. The gear from instance vendors is tier-gated. That means, you already have completed the instance on said tier before you are able to spend embers on it's gear and most likely are able to complete it again for farming loot. Sure, it may be slower than buying everything with embers but it's far away from impossible.
5. If you don't want to run instances for gear, you also don't need the instance gear as it is only used to play said instances on a higher tier.

To put it all together: the ember system changes might slow things down when gearing up. But I don't see a single point, where you are forced to buy lootboxes to reach the next step.

PS: I can't say much about the figments changes as I'm not really interested in cosmetics. That part may be really bad for the "collect it all" type of player depending on the additional new sources of figments.

It's not about that Adventurers Gear is best in Slot, it's about getting BiS Gear (like back then AD jewelry) by buying tremendous amounts of Lootboxes and outparse any player that just gains them from either running instances/raids or doing repeatables. But I guess, theres a collective confusion about which specific Lootboxes are meant, if it's the adventurers Lootboxes (that you can already barter for 3.5k Embers) or Steelbound Lootboxes (where the only access is by buying Keys in the shop).

[punker_rocker]

But I don't see a single point, where you are forced to buy lootboxes to reach the next step.

I actually agree with this, and don't think it's the main problem with removing embers from instance drops. The problem from my perspective is that it takes away the incentive for players who are already geared to continue running any of these instances, and that in turn makes it a lot harder for people who missed the first initial gear rush to catch up. For the 130 content, you could reach the cap any time between launch and Gundabad and very easily start running Stairs to start gearing up for raids, because everybody who had hit level cap ages ago was still running that instance for the embers. With Gundabad content, even prior to the embers change because only yellow-rarity gear dropped from T1, it's only been a few weeks and already no one runs T1 of anything. It's a huge problem that will only get worse by removing embers from all group content.

[ReneKiller1]

very easily start running Stairs to start gearing up for raids

But we have to mention, that Stairs was added about a year after Minas Morgul and we are currently at just about 2 months since Gundabad release. So maybe we get somethin like Stairs later in the Gundabad release cycle.

only yellow-rarity gear dropped from T1

I didn't play that much at the start of Minas Morgul but wasn't it very similar with the 3-mans there? And with the release of Wells of Langflood about have a year after Minas Morgul, the 3-mans gear got mostly useless, as the quest and barter gear from Wells of Langflood was better.

But yeah, in general I think you are right. It's not good, espacially for players who come later or without a big egnough kin, that the lower tiers are already not run anymore.

[Pavlin]

1. The game is mainly PvE so there is not really an ultimate "win" and for the PvP part there is special PvP gear which is definitly more suited for PvP.
2. The adventurer's gear is definitly not BiS (best-in-slot) gear (maybe except from the shields and offhand weapons, which means 0 to 2 adventurer's chests depending on the class, which is definitly managable by doing dailies/weeklies).
3. You don't need adventurer's gear for leveling or getting in instances. Example: I have already two characters mostly equipped with T3/4/5 stuff from the 3-mans without buying anyhting with embers. My way to go for gearing up is: landscape -> crafting/reputation vendors -> 3-mans on T2/T3 -> 3-mans on T4/T5 -> 6-mans T2/T3.
4. The gear from instance vendors is tier-gated. That means, you already have completed the instance on said tier before you are able to spend embers on it's gear and most likely are able to complete it again for farming loot. Sure, it may be slower than buying everything with embers but it's far away from impossible.
5. If you don't want to run instances for gear, you also don't need the instance gear as it is only used to play said instances on a higher tier.

To put it all together: the ember system changes might slow things down when gearing up. But I don't see a single point, where you are forced to buy lootboxes to reach the next step.

PS: I can't say much about the figments changes as I'm not really interested in cosmetics. That part may be really bad for the "collect it all" type of player depending on the additional new sources of figments.

What BS you write tho? Is not [2w because is pve ? Is not a bis gear ? Is the same frikin gear you get from doing the instace.
If you play with your kin, you may be partly right, about p2p. Now imagine you do it with pugs. Its normal to be inspected, and pug leadfer will alwasy pick gear over skill /sadly/ so bb"is not p2w" Even your kin mates will prefer the one with the better gear. Yes is tier gated, but once you have done the tier you need, ONCE, and you can buy everything you need from instance vendor with real $. And tuer compleation you can buy with $ too. Instacnce or raid slot / there are always carry grps who are eager to "help" and you can even afk. So yea, pls dont write BS and open your eyes.
Good luck

[why-becauseIcan]

1. The game is mainly PvE so there is not really an ultimate "win" and for the PvP part there is special PvP gear which is definitly more suited for PvP.

PVE games can be p2w lol.. It isn't that complicated, if you have an advantage over players who do not spend IRL money it's p2w.
PTW is used in gaming with the meaning "Pay to Win" to refer to games that allow players to purchase items or abilities (e.g., more powerful weapons, additional health points) that give them an advantage in the game, either over other players or NPCs (Non-Player Characters).

In general, Lotro is very p2w in comparison to other western MMORPGs. Its very much like an avarage f2p mobile game, if not worse.

[DavidmeetHal]

PVE games can be p2w lol.. It isn't that complicated, if you have an advantage over players who do not spend IRL money it's p2w.
PTW is used in gaming with the meaning "Pay to Win" to refer to games that allow players to purchase items or abilities (e.g., more powerful weapons, additional health points) that give them an advantage in the game, either over other players or NPCs (Non-Player Characters).

In general, Lotro is very p2w in comparison to other western MMORPGs. Its very much like an avarage f2p mobile game, if not worse.

There never has been one player ever in LOTRO that has had any sort of advantage over me in PVE play. Who would I be competing with in PVE play?

[why-becauseIcan]

There never has been one player ever in LOTRO that has had any sort of advantage over me in PVE play. Who would I be competing with in PVE play?

If players get invited to do T4/T5 content by spending a few minutes opening lootboxes, they have an advantage over you if you don't. This game has several goals in the endgame progression, to clear instances at different tiers, and earn powerful items for your character. Just because you don't want to see that as competition isn't relevant, I have explained the definition of the p2w term above.

This is a GAME, and it has several goals that can be achived, paying your way there will always be concidered p2w.


ay-to-win games are (typically freemium) video games that offer items or other gear that give buyers advantages over non-paying players in real money or make gameplay marginally more sluggish and difficult for players who do not pay in premium currency or real-world money.

All the hate the big companies like EA, Ubisoft, Blizzard etc gets for their monetization, lootboxes etc is NOTHING in comparision to the way SSG do things.

[DavidmeetHal]

All the hate the big companies like EA, Ubisoft, Blizzard etc gets for their monetization, lootboxes etc is NOTHING in comparision to the way SSG do things.

I'm with you all the way on this one.

[Uroc]

PVE games can be p2w lol.. It isn't that complicated, if you have an advantage over players who do not spend IRL money it's p2w.
PTW is used in gaming with the meaning "Pay to Win" to refer to games that allow players to purchase items or abilities (e.g., more powerful weapons, additional health points) that give them an advantage in the game, either over other players or NPCs (Non-Player Characters).

In general, Lotro is very p2w in comparison to other western MMORPGs. Its very much like an avarage f2p mobile game, if not worse.

I wanted to write on this thread about it but I see you already wrote everything what I wanted to write. Im glad to see that there is more people who understand what is p2w. People could maybe check GW2 as good example of game that dont have sub but it is not p2w.

[Fegefeuer]

I'm still so amazed about people who say that "it's not p2w because you don't win in pve" lol, it's like brainwashed. And SSG must be laughing about it.

What a way to defend what it's impossible to defend. As others have said, people opening lootboxes do faster gearing than people who don't. I was said by kinmates to get embers when I started doing Remmorchant because my crafted gear was not good. Guess the fastest way to get embers while inside a raid? Keys and lootboxes. Oh and btw, while doing Remmorchant, most of the times I got tank gear and I was playing dps so yeah... crafted gear + bad rng = people saying me to get ember gear (fastest way = lootbox). Nice!

I wonder what will happen first:

- All people remaining in forums will be the ones who say lotro is not p2w because others will leave
- Forums users will be the only people remaining in the game because players who don't use forums will silently leave

Well, at least then the forum users won't be a "bubble" and "minor representation of the community" ;D

[Braer]

Those denying the P2W are plodding through the game like lost sheep so aren't in that game so have no concept of winning or more specifically loosing. It's not a surprise to discover the number of "I didn't know that" posts on record. And SSG are reliant on them buying every most expensive XPack, sight unseen, to prop them up.

It's more your peers putting players under pressure to play the P2W game and why the "community" has to be shepherded and why we have the rhetoric we're inflicted with.

[Gildoriel]

I'm still so amazed about people who say that "it's not p2w because you don't win in pve" lol, it's like brainwashed. And SSG must be laughing about it.

What a way to defend what it's impossible to defend. As others have said, people opening lootboxes do faster gearing than people who don't. I was said by kinmates to get embers when I started doing Remmorchant because my crafted gear was not good. Guess the fastest way to get embers while inside a raid? Keys and lootboxes. Oh and btw, while doing Remmorchant, most of the times I got tank gear and I was playing dps so yeah... crafted gear + bad rng = people saying me to get ember gear (fastest way = lootbox). Nice!

I wonder what will happen first:

- All people remaining in forums will be the ones who say lotro is not p2w because others will leave
- Forums users will be the only people remaining in the game because players who don't use forums will silently leave

Well, at least then the forum users won't be a "bubble" and "minor representation of the community" ;D

I wouldn't call it brainwashed, but probably not thinking it through to the end. I was having that opinion once, too. But I realized some months ago that for any run of anything people will take on players who will contribute to max chance of success, it is obvious that better geared = better chance to actually play content, unless you expect others to carry you through instances. So if you say winning = being taken on for instances or raids, then lootboxes are definitely pay-to-win, even in PvE.

Plus: In the long run, when I think back to the time I started playing, they've been taking things you had a reliable way to obtain (if you put your mind to it and did stick with the task) and put RNG mechanics on it which is something I dislike by itself. But with steelbound loot-boxes, there's the gambling-for-money aspect which I find morally questionable at best. Another example: What started as a dev-hosted lottery for players where you put your name in and could win fine things (I won a Horse of the Hunter once) has been turned into the Hobbit Gifts where most of the time you get things you have no use for and - oh wonder - you can roll again for Mithril Coins, a currency which is only available through the shop. Even the VIP gifts have been useless many times I opened them. Just mentioning Dwarf Candles, in case anyone wonders what I am referring to.
Which is more or less my agreement that I see a strong move towards p2w as well, even though I had always said that it wasn't like that.

[Fegefeuer]

The Lord of the Rings Mobile - only on pc ;D