Will we see any class balance before the new raid?

[Nicname]

Just asking for a friend.

rn my warden prepares for getting replaced by red bear. So just wanted to know if I can delete the character and just roll a chimp ehhhhh champ.
I mean seriously, Champs and Hunters are already (!) like 20-30% ahead wardens (just if you take the good RNG, if you compare a bad RNG parse to good ones on champ/hunter the warden may even be like 30-40% behind) what will get even worse in a raid scenario when classes like hunter/champ will benefit greatly from diverse Buffs/Debuffs. Warden will get reduced to 3 Skills: Marked and Diminished Target plus Adroit Maneuvre. Well, let me correct. One Skill. Marked target since meta will be Champ (what's a RK??). why not take a bear instead? has -15% phys. mitigation, Armour Crush, +inc Melee dmg, Speed Buff, Sacrifice... Also brings more dmg to the table (~30%) and is heavy armour. You can instead make a Mini+Blue RK/Blue Cappy lineup.

Oh yeah, and blue warden is still #### rn

[Winzhi]

One could hope they take the data from the public raid testing happening and then tweak some numbers around. Hopefully they do because some DPS classes are as you said, 20-30% ahead and thats just crazy.

[Nicname]

One could hope they take the data from the public raid testing happening and then tweak some numbers around. Hopefully they do because some DPS classes are as you said, 20-30% ahead and thats just crazy.

Yeah, and these "number" I've just taken from dummy parses which will result in potentiating in a raid situation. The stronger the debuffs and a class' overall performance on a dummy is, compared to a class, that has little debuffs and far higher output the more drastic it'll display in a raid scenario.

[Markbjorn]

@Vastin

Tactical classes also need some damage bump

Thank you.

[gaara908776]

Yeah, and these "number" I've just taken from dummy parses which will result in potentiating in a raid situation. The stronger the debuffs and a class' overall performance on a dummy is, compared to a class, that has little debuffs and far higher output the more drastic it'll display in a raid scenario.

Not sure if you know this, but Yellow Champ has permanent 5.2% mit debuff(higher than red Warden without double proc) and 15% mitigation penetration for all blade skills with a pretty high uptime. Hunter has mit penetration as well on a Dummy.

I’ve posted myself parsing 350k DPS on Red Warden(completely unbuffed) with average RNG in Ghyn’s discord and another Warden I know has parsed up to 390k DPS in Yellow with screenshot proof as well. There is no way a Red Beorning would replace a Warden in a raid because Yellow Beorn healing will probably be the optimal choice. So it’s looking like the exact same situation as 130 cap where Warden will have one Guaranteed raid spot. I imagine Red RK will have a spot as well for their debuffs.

Yeah Blue Warden is in an awful spot right now but it has been for years so is that really surprising?

Btw, Red Bear is no where near 30% above the DPS of any semi decent Ward. In a raid I wouldn’t be surprised if it was 30% below Warden.

[Nicname]

I’ve posted myself parsing 350k DPS on Red Warden(completely unbuffed) with average RNG in Ghyn’s discord and another Warden I know has parsed up to 390k DPS in Yellow with screenshot proof as well.

That's nowhere near an average parse. I'm glad you had such number, but the average RNG puts warden in a place from 300-330k in average (without even mentioning that rn you can have a RNG range commuting +/- 50k DPS (can be 100k difference between Bad RNG+Lag and good RNG+No Lag) which is insane compared to champs that outparse wardens even without RNG and lesser Debuffs). Just arguing "The top .5% of Playerbase reach champlike numbers" isn't enough, especially when considering immense utility, huge burst damage, highest AoE and ST at the same time and heavy armour.

[gaara908776]

That's nowhere near an average parse. I'm glad you had such number, but the average RNG puts warden in a place from 300-330k in average (without even mentioning that rn you can have a RNG range commuting +/- 50k DPS (can be 100k difference between Bad RNG+Lag and good RNG+No Lag) which is insane compared to champs that outparse wardens even without RNG and lesser Debuffs). Just arguing "The top .5% of Playerbase reach champlike numbers" isn't enough, especially when considering immense utility, huge burst damage, highest AoE and ST at the same time and heavy armour.

You do realize though, that any Champ parsing above 400k is probably also in that "top .5%". If you're getting anywhere near as low as 300k for "average" Warden parse, you're either suffering from terrible lag on every parse, your rotation is not optimized around the current mastery CD's, or you're not at stat caps. In a raid, Warden is one of the classes that benefits the most from group buffs/debuffs. Raiding usually minimizes the gap in DPS between Hunter/Champ and Warden, not the opposite. I mean I'm of the opinion that Warden sustained single target DPS potential should be the highest of any class because we have absolutely no burst damage, but right now it's really not nearly as bad as you say. I really don't see raid groups dropping a Warden from the roster unless there are unavoidable reflect mechanics.

It would be nice if they could come up with a meaningful set bonus and some changes/reworks to blue line, though. It's been in dire straits for years now when it really should be somewhere between Guard/Captain in terms of strength.

[Storm_]

Yes, considering parse numbers that are flying around, Champ and Hunter need a nerf, Warden needs a slight buff and Rk needs a big buff, for all classes to be somewhat equal.

Its a shame because at the end of the 130 expansion, before the new LIs dropped, it was actually decently balanced.

[Osglinthor]

In a raid, Warden is one of the classes that benefits the most from group buffs/debuffs. Raiding usually minimizes the gap in DPS between Hunter/Champ and Warden, not the opposite. I mean I'm of the opinion that Warden sustained single target DPS potential should be the highest of any class because we have absolutely no burst damage, but right now it's really not nearly as bad as you say.

In raid ward is one that profits the least. Because of too long rotation we cant make anywhere near the use ohter classes do during nuke parts. Even if we get close to other classes on 2nd 3rd min in raid 1st min we will be at x3 lower dps by the time we catch up fight is over. I have sugested changes in main thread that would partialy solve this and also not require our ST dps to be too far off compared to other classes just because of long ### ramp up.

Most of those high parses are above avg RNG, to the point you dont even have to count that yellow 390k one because its 100% uptime on marked double proc(also made sugestion in main thread about that alongside few others to normalise parses a bit)
Compared to champ that parses far more consistently even tho people will also attach to above avg ones.

[gaara908776]

In raid ward is one that profits the least. Because of too long rotation we cant make anywhere near the use ohter classes do during nuke parts. Even if we get close to other classes on 2nd 3rd min in raid 1st min we will be at x3 lower dps by the time we catch up fight is over. I have sugested changes in main thread that would partialy solve this and also not require our ST dps to be too far off compared to other classes just because of long ### ramp up.

Most of those high parses are above avg RNG, to the point you dont even have to count that yellow 390k one because its 100% uptime on marked double proc(also made sugestion in main thread about that alongside few others to normalise parses a bit)
Compared to champ that parses far more consistently even tho people will also attach to above avg ones.

Yeah I'm sure the Yellow 390k parse isn't average to be fair. I've been making suggestions for years to give Warden some way to burst damage but you're not right about "nuke parts". I.E. Shelob, you could pre DoT most topples and be highest boss DPS every time if done correctly despite most damage being done in a burst phase. In Thoss, you could pre DoT her before burst phase and be highest boss DPS because of it(again despite it being a burst phase). AD and FoKD(both sustained cleave fights) Warden could cleave off the boss and would always be highest boss DPS here as well. I'm not saying Warden couldn't use some buffs right now to put them in a position to reliably be top sustained DPS(again as they should IMO), I was just refuting OP's claim that Warden is garbage right now and that they won't have a spot in Raid content.

Dev's have responded already and given Ward back their sub 10s mastery CD(available across all specs now regardless of set bonus choice). It's a good start but Blue Warden will need some significant work to become a main tank choice. I hope they devote their work to Blue line, personally.

[Osglinthor]

Yeah I'm sure the Yellow 390k parse isn't average to be fair. I've been making suggestions for years to give Warden some way to burst damage but you're not right about "nuke parts". I.E. Shelob, you could pre DoT most topples and be highest boss DPS every time if done correctly despite most damage being done in a burst phase. In Thoss, you could pre DoT her before burst phase and be highest boss DPS because of it(again despite it being a burst phase). AD and FoKD(both sustained cleave fights) Warden could cleave off the boss and would always be highest boss DPS here as well. I'm not saying Warden couldn't use some buffs right now to put them in a position to reliably be top sustained DPS(again as they should IMO), I was just refuting OP's claim that Warden is garbage right now and that they won't have a spot in Raid content.

Dev's have responded already and given Ward back their sub 10s mastery CD(available across all specs now regardless of set bonus choice). It's a good start but Blue Warden will need some significant work to become a main tank choice. I hope they devote their work to Blue line, personally.

All those fights were pre LI. Post new LIs that was no longer the case. Especialy this lvl cap. Thoss and Shelob just show how bad it is. You leave one fight 20 sec sooner in order to match others on DPS check same as in shelob where nuke happens when your rotation is already up. Meanwhile all other DPS are engaged far more in any other DPS mechanic. If there is add or side boss that spawns and needs to be taken down you will lag soo hard behind others. Or any fight that starts with nuke wich is basicly every single one. All those fights would be far easier without ward if it wasnt required for marked\diminished target and class essence. Wich will be same reason its taken this lvl cap unless we see some additional changes.

[Gunhard]

All those fights were pre LI. Post new LIs that was no longer the case. Especialy this lvl cap. Thoss and Shelob just show how bad it is. You leave one fight 20 sec sooner in order to match others on DPS check same as in shelob where nuke happens when your rotation is already up. Meanwhile all other DPS are engaged far more in any other DPS mechanic. If there is add or side boss that spawns and needs to be taken down you will lag soo hard behind others. Or any fight that starts with nuke wich is basicly every single one. All those fights would be far easier without ward if it wasnt required for marked\diminished target and class essence. Wich will be same reason its taken this lvl cap unless we see some additional changes.

Tbh i dont like that full dots design on warden. Its challenging to keep up all the dots, which have the same icons and no timers on in game ui to track them properly. 20+ seconds rotation on mostly stationary target to be on par with other classes is a joke imo. When add on top gambit system with just 9 gambit builders alone the fight become too complicated for majority of players, and far harder than any other dps class in the game. Lack of burst skills is a big issue and when it comes to raids nobody takes more than 1 warden for t2+ unless warden is top dps on dummy by a decent amount. That class would be skipped completely on high tier if not powerful debuffs which come from regular skills, not gambits. In pugs you will rarely meet wardens in general and most likely wont mee a good ones at all.

I dont have a simple suggestion how to make class better, but to be competitive in current state as dps at least it should be higher tier than champ and hunter if you can manage you rotation properly. Getting rid of those proc chances completely looks like a must, at least when you have all trait points needed in respective trait or make them increase damage like on champ dot trait instead of chance to proc. Proc chance for physical mitigation debuff on weapon alone looks enough of rng on warden. Maybe making some direct damage gambits way more powerful would be a good move, since now they all work like a fillers, and direct damage gambits traceries are mostly useless even compared to way lower damage gambit builders tracery. Also making some of current dot gambits direct damage only might be the way to go, to shorten that long rotation and help with burst when its needed.

[Nicname]

I was just refuting OP's claim that Warden is garbage right now and that they won't have a spot in Raid content.

To be clear on that, it wasn't my intention to claim that warden is garbage right now, in fact warden damage is still significant. But right now i see wardens good spot diminishing because the old say "Great Skill - Great Reward" is nowhere to be valid right now because current meta shows "Great Skill (+No Lag +good RNG) - almost as good as champs". I think 130 content was mostly balanced properly because when having somehow equally skilled members of a group/raid joined, they'll deal an equal amount of dmg.
The fact, that you'll only take one warden to a group (what I think is fine and should stay that way) is also a result of having siginificant damage (note: not highest, because that seems to be reserved for champ stacking) and debuff javelins for further champ buffing. And imho I think that is a problem, because if next meta requires something other than a bear heal, probably bc of insane ST Heal (Blue RK) or higher mits (Blue Cappy) Bear on red will still be mandatory and is also doing significant, if not in average higher damage. Especially if you take incredible warden RNG into account. I'm not expecting it to happen in the near future, but if SSG further follows the road it's not unlikely to happen. Especially depending on Raid Armour Set Bonuses imho.

I wanted to make the Devs aware of these concerns because i think that's reasoned.