Filling the Gaps: following in the footsteps of the Wildwood and the Angle

[miriadel]

about time they revamped that map. Hoping for the moria ones next.....

[Arnand_the_Fox]

about time they revamped that map. Hoping for the moria ones next.....

If they revamp Mora's map you could walk from Erid Luin, to Southern Mirkwood, and not leave the new map design. Would be cool.

[provamail10]

It would be great if they update the map, and it would be even greater if they update the stable routes, which is needed. And in my wish list I'd like to be able to climb Caradhras to the top.

[Deriaph]

It would be great if they update the map, and it would be even greater if they update the stable routes, which is needed. And in my wish list I'd like to be able to climb Caradhras to the top.

It would be a bit jarring and lore-breaking to see Gandalf's corpse there - because he would be, given the timeline of the Iron Garrison entering Moria and then coming to Lothlórien before Gandalf does.

EDIT: My bad, I was thinking of the peak of Zirakzigil, but you're talking about the pass of Caradhras. I agree, I would love to see the whole journey through the pass entered into the game.

[TesalionLortus]

I added the new Mirkwood map into my Rhovanion Photoshop file and I noticed the shoreline differs. The giant blockade on the Anduin (in the South) was maybe removed ? There is a bit of terrain cut off now in place where there used to be a "strong water current" slightly above "Anduin" :

[Aleziana]

I added the new Mirkwood map into my Rhovanion Photoshop file and I noticed the shoreline differs. The giant blockade on the Anduin (in the South) was maybe removed ? There is a bit of terrain cut off now in place where there used to be a "strong water current" slightly above "Anduin" :

I m really currius on how we gonna navigate to Scuttledells with this new maps :P

[Maedol]

I m really currius on how we gonna navigate to Scuttledells with this new maps :P

Just like before

[Phantion]

Hehehehe!

I'm thinking another good move on the next BR will be to ride around the pre-battle zones in Gondor and see if they are making any changes that carry-over across the old version and the new version. It'll be interesting to see We'll probably be able to tell quite a bit on that- and like, for example, if there are any changes around the mountains and so forth. We'll also be able to tell a bit of its scope, I'm guessing. For example, if we don't see anything going on in Anfalas at all from West Gondor, it probably means that's not part of it and so forth.

Of course, it's also true they might not touch geography and keep new changes just to the "After-Battle" areas. Again, we'll simply have to see Time will tell, I guess!

Cheers!

[TesalionLortus]

Of course, it's also true they might not touch geography and keep new changes just to the "After-Battle" areas. Again, we'll simply have to see Time will tell, I guess!

It depends. I can be fine with slight terrain reshapes to add a path to something generally out of view or river shores getting smoothed out and new stuff added onto Southern Gondor shores, which isn't accessible in pre-version anyway.

But if they're big apparent changes like old cities modified, new valleys delved or entire mountains reshaped... please please please please no, not just on new "reimagined" map. Include those in pre-battle Gondor too, please

[Phantion]

It depends. I can be fine with slight terrain reshapes to add a path to something generally out of view or river shores getting smoothed out and new stuff added onto Southern Gondor shores, which isn't accessible in pre-version anyway.

But if they're big apparent changes like old cities modified, new valleys delved or entire mountains reshaped... please please please please no, not just on new "reimagined" map. Include those in pre-battle Gondor too, please

I searched around on BR. No changes at all to the northern vales on the pre-battle-side in Central Gondor; the only change I noticed is a troublesome one with river-water. The water was a deep sea-turquoise in Pelargir and such until U35's update, which turns the river into a reflective "clear water" like those in Swan-fleet.

It makes the water pitch-black with some very strange effects when, for example, walking along / in the canals of Pelargir - and where Pelargir ends and the river begins northward, there's this very awkward dividing line between the clear water and the sea water styles.

I get what they are doing: they are making the Anduin's coloring more consistent. The problem is that, on the map, the map has the turquoise waters and so on. I think it's a mistake for them to make that change; it's out of wack with the maps and causing all sorts of water texture issues in Pelargir. I think it was better where the clear water went to Cair Andros with a change hidden in the rapids.

Anyways, that's all I could really see on the "before battle" side of things.

Cheers!

[TesalionLortus]

Well, hopefully there are no issues and it looks good. I've been there recently on the pre-battle version, across the river and in waters, from Cair Andros to Pelargil, and yeah the water color is the last thing that ever caught my attention. A difference only ever noticeable on the LOTRO terrain map plugin but otherwise not really something that would bother me especially not with Cair Andros and Osgiliath as buffers

[TesalionLortus]

Speaking of smaller gaps - how about another mission space or further adventure that will give us open landscape Redhorn pass attached to Eriador?

I guess technically the mission would need to take place in its own copied version - I guess that's how they work? - but the idea to have something happen there on this new section of the pass could be an excuse to create it to begin with and you already have half of what's needed..

Recently I realized that the space from the Elladan and Elrohir mission actually includes Zirakzigil map and the view of the Durin's Tower above, which I missed previously, so it's not as easy as attaching the existing creation to the existing entry pass in Eriador - that would be a little bit too close. But according to my world scale comparison from some pages back, given that Eriador is very compressed vertically, things mismatch anyway and - Rohan/Dunland connection taken into account, so like it appears on Lotro Google Map - the actual in-game world wouldn't have such a huge, massive gap in this space like there is on the Rhovanion map right now (there is like a 2x Moria gap between that Elladan and Elrohir space and Lothlorien, because that's where Zirakzigil was placed originally, and the shape of Zirakzigil/Durin's Tower visible from Lothlorien isn't really the same one, appears too close, so probably just a deco or double placed much closer?). So... adding just a little bit of extra land to connect the existing piece of the Redhorn/Zirakzigil space with Eriador would do, with the existing piece copied over onto Eriador map and the rest that needs to be added created for some future small adventure/content/mission.



Something like this:




The Rhovanion fragment is just for reference, and spaced how it appears on Google map (so Rohan/Dunland are continuous) but not that it matters how exactly the pass would be placed/aligned - there gotta be a teleport to Rhovanion anyway, so we don't need to bother beyond that Eastern dwarven gate from the mission. Though I would have that gate actually lead to the actual pass in Lothlorien (through swift teleport item or otherwise, while you still keep the collapsed snow in The Fallen Ice location) or no connection at all, and have this dwarven gate collapsed by snow too, if need be, though I have no idea why limit options for no reason.. but definitely make a separate teleport entry leading North towards Kizdul-kalah, which would make more sense! Since that main road clearly leads to Lothlorien, which has only been solidified by the mission narrative

Also, think of what may be achieved here... since looking at the terrain map there doesn't seem to be a lot of unpolished undeveloped terrain around Redhorn space... and Eregion is wholly complete, as well as most Trollshaws on this side... a pass that gives us unconstrained amazing views into all these lands below, perhaps even as far into distance as Eregion of Swanfleet, if it's from so high above... that would be like NOTHING else in the game, I guess Well I know I know... there would probably be some fog and such and snow plus fov concerns but perhaps you could cheat a bit to expose as much of the view into the lands below as possible, that would be something amazing to experience... Like here, but down there is Eregion, forest walls of Trollshaws, geographical shapes of Eriador elevations etc Could be a great way to give us some official "view of zones from high above vistas" that certain people who tweaked the game's client are able to do and sometimes share on youtube (or those who have broken beyond the bounds)

[Phantion]

Well, hopefully there are no issues and it looks good. I've been there recently on the pre-battle version, across the river and in waters, from Cair Andros to Pelargil, and yeah the water color is the last thing that ever caught my attention. A difference only ever noticeable on the LOTRO terrain map plugin but otherwise not really something that would bother me especially not with Cair Andros and Osgiliath as buffers

Yes. But unfortunately, I think they are overreacting to the outcry over the "Swanfleet water is too blue" bug and are now going into the opposite direction, which is a very bad idea for Gondor's biomes. The buffers are gone. What they did, as of the current build of U35 on Bullroarer, is that - in anticipation of U36 "After-Battle Gondor" most likely - they've made the whole Anduin that "clear" shade of water vs. the "sea-toned water" we find along the coasts of Gondor and up the Anduin to the rapids near Cair Andros on Live.

The clear Anduin water goes all the way down to Pelargir. Now, as of Beta Build 3, Pelargir has a river flowing into it from the North (*the Sirith?). The river still has the sea-blue. But then it reaches this artificial line and turns into the clear water right at Pelargir's northern border. The clear-water exposes too much of the lower silt under the canals, and now it makes Pelargir look too dry and the canals far less impressive. The Dawnless Day and the "new Anduin's" reflective surface don't go so well together either.

I think it's a big mistake. The lower Anduin could easily have minerals that give it the deeper coloring - and that "crystal blue" look is common enough for rivers and coasts in the Mediterreanean climate Gondor represents. I wish they'd stop meddling with things that had no problems! *Laughs!* It's perfectly fine the way it is on Live - and I'm very opposed to their BR changes with Gondor's water.

RE- Caradhras. I agree that they need some alternative to it. But my guess is that they'll need to make "After-Sauron" versions of Lothlorien and Eregion to get it to work because they "time-locked" the current zones during the blizzard that prevented the Fellowship from crossing there.

It would allow for some interesting possibilities, though. For example, an Eregion in a more summer climate with a world-accessible Tham Mirdain and a Lothlorien that has greener leaves in the summer months, bluer skies, and less Half-Orcs running around - and maybe some newer, uncovered ruins. Eregion could have a sprawling encampment of the Rivendell and Lorien Elves on the Fellowship's return journey set shortly before the two groups split to their homelands - and perhaps a whole "Tales of Yore" experience centering on the hidden conversations between Gandalf, Galadriel, and Elrond. Caradhras could be accessible and include clicky-goats to old-Zirakzigil, pre-and-post-Sauron versions of Lothlorien as well as Blood of Azog's version, and a passage to the Gladdenmere. We could even get a "summer Trollshaws" out of it.

((*Or, maybe they'll look at the astronomical amount of work that would take, and hopefully decide your idea's far more easier to implement! *Winks* )).

Cheers!

[TesalionLortus]

Yes. But unfortunately, I think they are overreacting to the outcry over the "Swanfleet water is too blue" bug and are now going into the opposite direction, which is a very bad idea for Gondor's biomes. The buffers are gone. What they did, as of the current build of U35 on Bullroarer, is that - in anticipation of U36 "After-Battle Gondor" most likely - they've made the whole Anduin that "clear" shade of water vs. the "sea-toned water" we find along the coasts of Gondor and up the Anduin to the rapids near Cair Andros on Live.

The clear Anduin water goes all the way down to Pelargir. Now, as of Beta Build 3, Pelargir has a river flowing into it from the North (*the Sirith?). The river still has the sea-blue. But then it reaches this artificial line and turns into the clear water right at Pelargir's northern border. The clear-water exposes too much of the lower silt under the canals, and now it makes Pelargir look too dry and the canals far less impressive. The Dawnless Day and the "new Anduin's" reflective surface don't go so well together either.

I think it's a big mistake. The lower Anduin could easily have minerals that give it the deeper coloring - and that "crystal blue" look is common enough for rivers and coasts in the Mediterreanean climate Gondor represents. I wish they'd stop meddling with things that had no problems! *Laughs!* It's perfectly fine the way it is on Live - and I'm very opposed to their BR changes with Gondor's water.

No way... I mean, seriously... I can't exactly depict it but if it's you who says that then I don't even need to, I'm sure it'll look bad :P So maybe they can seriously reconsider...

Seriously, that's why I say they should use their own common sense not just blindly "react to things" - I really can't believe that they wouldn't be able to tell whether something feels good or not, and really surprised me they didn't see that awfulness with the blue water change. That we didn't appreciate toxic chemical waste blue doesn't mean "all blue = bad" now. In fact, the outcry was there because that implementation was particularly terrible and there are plenty of different approaches to waters across the game world that aren't this perfect clear mirror (and somewhat more blue, yeah, like Anduin in Gondor, with its waves) yet still worked and nobody ever said they didn't belong. Maybe if they tried to give some of these waters a different look/shade, in a way that they did many different waters from Enedwaith to Gundabad, then ok, if that's per individual basis and made sure it makes sense/looks good/work well with environment. But not all mirror waters globally... and replaced by such a terrible implementation no less. In the real world water comes in a variety of shades due to clarity and reflections of the environment. Why should this be any different in the game, variety=good here. Believable. Belongs. It's architectural style, cultural and narrative consistency that I want... not making water everywhere the same See, that certain things have variety, realistically, IS a consistency too Certain... but not all under all circumstances

For upcoming content, maybe I could get behind the idea to make the river wholly consistent on this map layer - but there were those buffers so wasn't as visible/harmful anyway, so why bother? - but maybe then a better option was to... modify the one part to match the other and keep the unique look/shade/waves/etc? Not turn everything into Eriador mirror type? Meh. If that's the idea here and isn't just a temporary placeholder. Who knows.

RE- Caradhras. I agree that they need some alternative to it. But my guess is that they'll need to make "After-Sauron" versions of Lothlorien and Eregion to get it to work because they "time-locked" the current zones during the blizzard that prevented the Fellowship from crossing there.

It would allow for some interesting possibilities, though. For example, an Eregion in a more summer climate with a world-accessible Tham Mirdain and a Lothlorien that has greener leaves in the summer months, bluer skies, and less Half-Orcs running around - and maybe some newer, uncovered ruins. Eregion could have a sprawling encampment of the Rivendell and Lorien Elves on the Fellowship's return journey set shortly before the two groups split to their homelands - and perhaps a whole "Tales of Yore" experience centering on the hidden conversations between Gandalf, Galadriel, and Elrond. Caradhras could be accessible and include clicky-goats to old-Zirakzigil, pre-and-post-Sauron versions of Lothlorien as well as Blood of Azog's version, and a passage to the Gladdenmere. We could even get a "summer Trollshaws" out of it.

((*Or, maybe they'll look at the astronomical amount of work that would take, and hopefully decide your idea's far more easier to implement! *Winks* )).

Cheers!

Oh, well... my idea is certainly easier And I don't really see so much appeal in redoing these old zones (and introducing the confusion of alternates lol) especially that we already had Azanulbizar take and new parts of Eregion in Swanfleet to enjoy. Well, I know about the story concerns and I'm all about the story/immersion, but they're really easily alleviated - they can literary have a side path (maybe behind some cave ins etc), put there for our enjoyment for gamey reasons (but also story reasons), that newbies may even easily miss if they're not researching the area extensively for every nook and cranny, and then even have associated quest/mission/adventure with us discovering that hidden backdoor/tunnel because we're investigating the area for reasons - like some warg activity, narratively after the fellowship passing - and then we end up on the proper path behind the snowfall barrier and up we go. Easy enough! Doesn't invalidate Fellowship choices either because, at the time, when the Wrath of Caradhras was raging, even if they found a side path it wouldn't really help them in this situation and would still be a dangerous idea to try it.

It's harder for teleport connection between the Caradhras pass and Lothlorien snowfall barrier, but I guess even that can work if they just put interactable "swift horse" items as connectors (say, a rope, or a pickaxe, or something), rather than use a classic portal. We have swift horses all over the place both for convenience and literally for travelling in time for different battle phases etc... what's the problem with an item to circumvent a story barrier and - also - travel in time, just like we do between every single zone anyway, since they're never the same time

[gildhur]

Well, it looks like we got the name of the new Gondor region:

The next Casual Stroll with Scenario takes place on Wednesday, March 22nd starting at Noon Eastern on Twitch.tv/LOTROstream! This time Scenario will travel through Carn Dum in addition to King's Gondor.

King's Gondor, as opposed to Steward's Gondor, I suppose. Still undetermined how much of the existing maps it will cover, and how much if any will be new territory extending south toward Umbar. We'll find out next week!

[Scenario]

Well, it looks like we got the name of the new Gondor region:


King's Gondor, as opposed to Steward's Gondor, I suppose. Still undetermined how much of the existing maps it will cover, and how much if any will be new territory extending south toward Umbar. We'll find out next week!

I'll talk more details about it next week!

[TesalionLortus]

I'll talk more details about it next week!

Oh, that was a surprise! Is it complete already? Or just a very early preview? Still seems far off, given Angmar wasn't there yet

Well, it looks like we got the name of the new Gondor region:

More like a name of the stream? And update perhaps? For regions and travel skills I guess the usual pattern makes sense - Lossarnach After Battle etc. with actual region names.

[Hierona]

Oh, that was a surprise! Is it complete already? Or just a very early preview? Still seems far off, given Angmar wasn't there yet

More like a name of the stream? And update perhaps? For regions and travel skills I guess the usual pattern makes sense - Lossarnach After Battle etc. with actual region names.

North Ithilien was also called March of the King tho, so having the King's Gondor seems possible. Might wanna save that name when they go north to the Scouring. I guess when they want to go back to The Shire they use Minas Tirith Midsummer and go north through Far Anorien.

[Phantion]

I'll talk more details about it next week!

Sounds great, Scenario! I look forward to it!

P.S. Please, please, please don't touch the Live server waters of the Anduin from Cair Andros down to the sea. Gondor needs its crystal blue Mediterranean-style waters, with the appropriate minerals forming that particular sea-blue hue, to really shine and feel unique and different than, say, the Mouths of the Entwash or Swanfleet! On Bullroarer, I noticed the waters changed along the current "After Battle Pelennor" as well as on the "Before Battle" side in Pelargir - and I don't think it's a very good idea! The canals in Pelargir on BR are a real mess; on Live, the bluer water creates the illusion the canals of Pelargir are deeper - and that goes away pretty quickly with the "clear water" on BR.

Also, the Before Battle Anduin waters really still felt much better with the blue reflecting the Dawnless Day; now it's pitch-black and . . . it really makes a mess of Pre-Battle Gondor, quite a bit.

Different zones work better differently with different hues of water in different places. It would be like making the waters of Agarnaith or Garth Agarwen grey instead of red, which would kind of miss the point. Swanfleet made sense to have the clearer water a great deal inland from the sea. Gondor's supposed to have this sea climate.

In short, as the adage goes: If it ain't broke, please don't "fix" it!

Cheers!

[TesalionLortus]

Sounds great, Scenario! I look forward to it!

P.S. Please, please, please don't touch the Live server waters of the Anduin from Cair Andros down to the sea. Gondor needs its crystal blue Mediterranean-style waters, with the appropriate minerals forming that particular sea-blue hue, to really shine and feel unique and different than, say, the Mouths of the Entwash or Swanfleet! On Bullroarer, I noticed the waters changed along the current "After Battle Pelennor" as well as on the "Before Battle" side in Pelargir - and I don't think it's a very good idea! The canals in Pelargir on BR are a real mess; on Live, the bluer water creates the illusion the canals of Pelargir are deeper - and that goes away pretty quickly with the "clear water" on BR.

Also, the Before Battle Anduin waters really still felt much better with the blue reflecting the Dawnless Day; now it's pitch-black and . . . it really makes a mess of Pre-Battle Gondor, quite a bit.

Different zones work better differently with different hues of water in different places. It would be like making the waters of Agarnaith or Garth Agarwen grey instead of red, which would kind of miss the point. Swanfleet made sense to have the clearer water a great deal inland from the sea. Gondor's supposed to have this sea climate.

In short, as the adage goes: If it ain't broke, please don't "fix" it!

Cheers!

Agreed. I guess to someone like Scenario - who can and often does fly around from much higher above ground level - any color inconsistencies on the Anduin might stick out more and be tempting to fix. But from the ground level, even though my eyes are quick to spot major visual eyesores and flickers, I really did not feel anything off with how things were on live. The only noticeable off thing I noticed were a few spots on After Anduin where the river's current was only half of Anduin and the other half motionless.

Anyway, even just making the entire Anduin that bluish hue, on Gondor maps, seems a better option for color consistency' sake, although... there is the question of how would that work with the more "swampy" parts around Druadan and Rauros... so maybe not, on the second thought... and maybe as it was on live is just a better option overall, from player ground perspective anyway

[Scenario]

There have been a handful of changes to how water works and renders on the back end of things which may have impacted what the Anduin looks like. We can take a look into it.

[Phantion]

There have been a handful of changes to how water works and renders on the back end of things which may have impacted what the Anduin looks like. We can take a look into it.

Thanks! I greatly appreciate it!

Update - it's a lot more widespread than I initially thought. I just took a long ride on Beta 4 and found out that it's the entire coast.

Belfalas has just turned into "Blackwater Bay" on the "Before Battle" side of things; it's just missing a ton of barrels of green "wild fire" to unleash on the Corsair ships.

From Morthond, Edhellond, Dol Amroth, throughout the Cape of Belfalas, and all the way out to Linhir and up the Anduin to Osgiliath: it's all the clear "mirror water" on Bullroarer as of Build 4 (*TesalionLortus, the changes aren't on Live yet). If U35 launches as it is, it will transform the Great Sea Belegaer into a giant Nen Harn and/or Nen Hithoel. The Sea will become a vast mountain lake and lose all hints that it was once the Sea. Lake Evendim will feel more oceanic than Gondor, before and/or after battle, since at least it has green-ish waters.

I'll never forget the first moment I entered Western Gondor after leaving the cold darkness of the Paths of the Dead and the haunted vale of Erech behind. The land opened up. The waters shifted. And then I saw it: The Sea . . . and it felt so unique and so different precisely because of the way it's waters were originally designed, textured, and colored.

Now, as of BR Beta build 4, the only remaining "blue" parts are the ocean wave patterns (*it is a pity there's no way to try to render rolling waves in LOTRO's water- but that's a tale for a different book ). The waves actually fade out in broad daylight compared to the surface reflections on ultra high graphics. The two water styles just don't mix too well together One overrides the other. This goes all the way from distant undeveloped Anfalas throughout Gondor - and most likely, it affects both Pre-Battle Gondor and King's Gondor / After-Battle Gondor. I'd provide /loc's - but it's literally, "everywhere there is water along Gondor's coasts." They've turned from a Bahamas-style of crystal turquoise water and/or Mediterranean and into something resembling the frigid waters off the coasts of Scandinavia, Norway, Iceland, etc.

Is it still beautiful? In it's own way, yes. But it's not Gondor anymore. In that respect, U35 will make Gondor lose the magic of its coasts if things stay as they are . . . *takes off his hat and sings a dirge followed by a sea shanty.*

*Takes out his Palantir in Elostirion and calls the Vala Ulmo* "Ummm . . . . we have a problem. Morgoth's just unleashed his discord on the seas in the Third Age. Yes? I know you threw him through the Doors of Night! Well, bad news. Sauron and Morgoth must have swapped positions through some sorcery. He came back and is taking it out on the Sea! The Swan Ships will be next!"*

Hey, we all need a good laugh, right?

Cheers!

[Aeroniel]

It would be great if they update the map, and it would be even greater if they update the stable routes, which is needed. And in my wish list I'd like to be able to climb Caradhras to the top.

EDIT: My bad, I was thinking of the peak of Zirakzigil, but you're talking about the pass of Caradhras. I agree, I would love to see the whole journey through the pass entered into the game.

You actually can cross the Redhorn pass, in one of the Further Adventures of Elladan and Elrohir missions. You cross from the Eregion side to Dimrill Dale. As I recollect, it's chapter 3.

Granted it's not in the open landscape of the game, but I was thrilled to experience the pass at long last!

[auximenes]

There have been a handful of changes to how water works and renders on the back end of things which may have impacted what the Anduin looks like.

Because you're working on boats and sea travel, right? *nudge* *nudge*

[TesalionLortus]

Because you're working on boats and sea travel, right? *nudge* *nudge*

LOL That was my reaction just now too. Maybe they're working on how the water surface reacts to a moving boat




Regarding quotes brought up above, if someday they implemented Caradhras pass onto Eriador map somewhat similar to how I suggested above, it could actually allow for complete landscape travel to the peak of Zirakzigil too Like, Zirakzigil is right there above the pass they've created in the mission space, so there could be a rope in one of the blind paths on Eriador map version that teleports you to the slopes of Zirakzigil above, on Rhovanion map version, and from there we could have a third landscape path to enter Moria, wouldn't that be cool
(PS: It could easily be your landscape Eriador solution to skip Walls of Moria intro, similar to how one can currently circumvent Black Gate destruction through Minas Morgul and still explore in Mordor.)