Filling the Gaps: following in the footsteps of the Wildwood and the Angle

[TesalionLortus]

You're telling me the person who always wants wide open spaces (not like that) to just wander around in and stumble on quests (not like that), but also wants us to hurry up the story (not like that) while also improving the graphics in existing areas (not like that) doesn't like this new take on Carn Dum? Behold my shocked face!

Not like that because everything has its time and place and there is, I don't know, balance to things? To say that I "always" want X is an exaggeration but some of the X's could be there. Things can be done differently under different conditions, and overall things could have variety, but not "on a whim" kind of variety. I don't always want X in every single situation, regardless of context.

I have my own preferences, for instance, and so does Scenario, and so does everyone who works on it. I think that's natural, and it's okay.

Perfectly natural. But this is exactly why there gotta be a guardian of sorts with an eagle's view on things, to rein everyone in, sometimes, if things go in the direction of too much inconsistency.

The original instances aren't going anywhere, and you can spend all day in the original Carn Dum if you like it better. Both can coexist - videogames are cool like that, and it's part of the fun of adaptations: you can see another take on it without it harming the original source material.

I lost you now... What kind of adaptation? Are you making an adaptation of your own game now? I mean, I don't know... name one single game with decent lore that would follow such a philosophy of "fun" in course of its tale and world map... Seriously, MoL :P I mean, you don't want to turn into WoW's confusing mess of a lore... because where is fun in that? Lore is a lore for a reason

[Arnand_the_Fox]

I lost you now... What kind of adaptation? Are you making an adaptation of your own game now? I mean, I don't know... name one single game with decent lore that would follow such a philosophy of "fun" in course of its tale and world map... Seriously, MoL :P I mean, you don't want to turn into WoW's confusing mess of a lore... because where is fun in that? Lore is a lore for a reason

Pretty much every single long running MMO I can think of has gone back and re-done, either entirely, or in small instances, older areas, while still leaving the older version in place in some missions/instances. And this isn't even just limited to video games. Long running TV and movie franchise have done the same. Star Trek, Doctor Who, Star Wars, etc.

Every piece of media. Every video game, book, TV show, movie, etc is just an abstraction of an original idea. But like all abstractions, they're built within the limits they have at the time, and thus, never 100% true to what was originally thought. No one made Star Trek: The Original Series with the idea that its a 100% correct visual representation of what the Star Trek universe looks like. It was just the most achievable abstraction they could make at the time. And they've gone back and changed many elements within the universe into new forms many times in the 50+ years its been around. No one makes things in TV shows, movies, video games, under the guide of "visual literalism", that what you're seeing is a totally accurate representation of that thing. Its all abstractions, and said abstractions change as needed for whatever fits best with whatever they need to do, or what they can now achieve with much better tech/tools/budget years later.

That has nothing to do with lore. Lore is information about a world. That Carn Dum exists, and is a mountain fortress, is lore. The exact layout/appearance of Carn Dum isn't lore. There is no lore on exactly what Carn Dum looked like, its all just an abstraction. The abstraction can change in any number of ways and not change any actual lore in the game.

[TesalionLortus]

Pretty much every single long running MMO I can think of has gone back and re-done, either entirely, or in small instances, older areas, while still leaving the older version in place in some missions/instances.

And how many of these MMOs would be as interconnected in terms of their storytelling as LOTRO is? Some wouldn't. But yeah, some MMOs do that and even a lot, and may do it wrong, and then look at WoW - players are basically telling new players asking about lore or expecting to explore the world with its stories to read old articles and YouTube videos because it has become such a trainwreck with so many things changed, rebooted, discarded and replaced over the years (including models with massive visual changes that have nothing to do with previous incarnations) that it's become an incomprehensive mess of a lore.

Besides, if it's done right, like the old Bree to new Bree, then I don't have issues. The new Last Homely House is probably another good example of how to do this, though I couldn't tell yet, haven't seen it myself yet.

And this isn't even just limited to video games. Long running TV and movie franchise have done the same. Star Trek, Doctor Who, Star Wars, etc.

For any major differences and outright visual/conceptual changes - it usually happens in a reboot series, which, by definition, has almost nothing to do with what came before except when it chooses to adapt things similarly, but it has its brand new lore entirely unconnected to the old one. Is LOTRO a rebooted game? No, it's still the same one with the same continuity.

The exact layout/appearance of Carn Dum isn't lore.

Not lore of Tolkien canon. But it is a lore of the game. (That even fed heavily into Car Bronach and Elderslade, recent content)

The abstraction can change in any number of ways and not change any actual lore in the game.

It literally changes the previously established lore of the game. I could understand the Galactic Senate having some slight differences in it in the movies and the Clone Wars series but still looks pretty much the same. Count Dooku isn't a perfect image of Christopher Lee but he doesn't have a yellow beard, still white. The Carn Dum situation is as if the next episode of the Bad Batch tried to tell me the Senate is located on another planet and always has been and it's now flying chairs rather than platforms, in cubical space instead of round and on the outside it has multiple giant laser canons attached to it. I'm not sure how is that "just abstraction" and "nothing to do with lore" (of the game). You can give older areas a facelift or even redefine them in modern ways that feel more real without making it an outright lore-breaking jarring reboot. I'll just say it again, why not more of an ancient city of Termessos treatment? So a familiar space with a familiar layout made more believable and real and more modern, not a reboot.

[Scenario]

This all said - I feel like this line of discussion has co-opted the original intention of this thread. I heartily encourage this discussion to continue either in new thread, or in the Bullroarer sub-forum and allow the speculation regarding the future landscapes to continue here unburdened by circular discussions of present landscapes.

[TesalionLortus]

I feel like technically it's long past that point because should have been only about "filling the gaps" (meaning these actual glaring gaps and holes in existing landscapes), so not even Umbar. I guess we could use "Story" and "Landscape" forum sections?

[Aleziana]

This all said - I feel like this line of discussion has co-opted the original intention of this thread. I heartily encourage this discussion to continue either in new thread, or in the Bullroarer sub-forum and allow the speculation regarding the future landscapes to continue here unburdened by circular discussions of present landscapes.

Wait... do you mean that Forodwaith isn't a tease for a future "Filling the Gaps" region??? :P

[TesalionLortus]

Wait... do you mean that Forodwaith isn't a tease for a future "Filling the Gaps" region??? :P

Technically, it would probably be called something else, if it was supposed to fill that gap between Angmar, North Downs and Forochel :P I will probably treat that as a "soft" tease not indication there is Forodwaith right West of Angmar's Western border (though there can be a road to Forodwaith leading North)

[Arnand_the_Fox]

Well, back more to the thread's original topic

• Brown Lands - Helping Radagast, and some Ents, investigate what happened to the Entwives, and dealing with the Easterlings moving to attack Rohan.
• Emyn Muil - Tracking orcs into this mountainous region, and helping cover Frodo and Sam's trail.
• Anfalas - Some advanced force of Corsairs are harassing this largely undefended region before the main force camped in Tarlang's Crown moves in, and we stop them.
• White Mountains - Helping the Dwarven settlements of Zigil-jâbal, and Kechel, deal with remnants of the White Hand orcs fleeing the loss at Helms Deep, and the destruction of Isengard.
• Deep Mirkwood - Tracking down where the Taurogrim are coming from, and why they've started to return
• Deep Fangorn - Helping the Ents deal with more of Saruman's machinations in the Fangorn Forest
• Tol Falas - One off/isolated adventure dealing with a hunt for some buried treasure
• Northern/Southern Erid Luin - Exploring the long ruined Dwarves halls of Belegost and Nogrod. More early Dourhand shenanigans, and Blue-Crag goblin background
• Southfarthing - More Lotho/Ruffian/Saruman build up for an inevitable Scouring of the Shire release
• Forochel/Angmar gap - More stuff with the Lossoth, their background/history from Forodwaith, the Angmariam's attempts to manipulate them, some Dwarven history for their ruins in this region/Forochel.
• Minhiriath/Western Enedwaith - More background/story on the bandits and such Saruman is recruiting

Are the non level cap, filling in the world, based map ideas I can think of.

[provamail10]

This all said - I feel like this line of discussion has co-opted the original intention of this thread. I heartily encourage this discussion to continue either in new thread, or in the Bullroarer sub-forum and allow the speculation regarding the future landscapes to continue here unburdened by circular discussions of present landscapes.

I completely second Scenario's words, and I'd like to ask him his own guesses about which regions will include Gondor's revamp.

[Scenario]

I completely second Scenario's words, and I'd like to ask him his own guesses about which regions will include Gondor's revamp.

Any information I have to offer wouldn't be speculation.

[k40rne]

And how many of these MMOs would be as interconnected in terms of their storytelling as LOTRO is? Some wouldn't. But yeah, some MMOs do that and even a lot, and may do it wrong, and then look at WoW - players are basically telling new players asking about lore or expecting to explore the world with its stories to read old articles and YouTube videos because it has become such a trainwreck with so many things changed, rebooted, discarded and replaced over the years (including models with massive visual changes that have nothing to do with previous incarnations) that it's become an incomprehensive mess of a lore.

Besides, if it's done right, like the old Bree to new Bree, then I don't have issues. The new Last Homely House is probably another good example of how to do this, though I couldn't tell yet, haven't seen it myself yet.




For any major differences and outright visual/conceptual changes - it usually happens in a reboot series, which, by definition, has almost nothing to do with what came before except when it chooses to adapt things similarly, but it has its brand new lore entirely unconnected to the old one. Is LOTRO a rebooted game? No, it's still the same one with the same continuity.







Not lore of Tolkien canon. But it is a lore of the game. (That even fed heavily into Car Bronach and Elderslade, recent content)




It literally changes the previously established lore of the game. I could understand the Galactic Senate having some slight differences in it in the movies and the Clone Wars series but still looks pretty much the same. Count Dooku isn't a perfect image of Christopher Lee but he doesn't have a yellow beard, still white. The Carn Dum situation is as if the next episode of the Bad Batch tried to tell me the Senate is located on another planet and always has been and it's now flying chairs rather than platforms, in cubical space instead of round and on the outside it has multiple giant laser canons attached to it. I'm not sure how is that "just abstraction" and "nothing to do with lore" (of the game). You can give older areas a facelift or even redefine them in modern ways that feel more real without making it an outright lore-breaking jarring reboot. I'll just say it again, why not more of an ancient city of Termessos treatment? So a familiar space with a familiar layout made more believable and real and more modern, not a reboot.

I think you could definitely do with watching this Corey Olsen video on Tolkien's understanding of adaptation. It's certainly worth watching.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mqt8...gnumUniversity

[TesalionLortus]

I think you could definitely do with watching this Corey Olsen video on Tolkien's understanding of adaptation. It's certainly worth watching.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mqt8...gnumUniversity

I know about this, about Tolkien's words. What does it have to do with the quoted post ?

[k40rne]

I know about this, about Tolkien's words. What does it have to do with the quoted post ?

It's a general statement, why I didn't make it about any specific text. It was just a useful video I came across recently that was apt to the situation.

[miriadel]

Olsen is the last of the "scholars" I'd recommend since often he presents his opinions like "my way or the highway" as if only his vision is the right one.... but anyway, that is also going off topic, it has nothing to do with filling the gaps with landscape in lotro.

I read above some nice Forodwaith talk, and I'd be even more interested to explore that after Umbar (because going linear Harad would be 150). A Tales of Yore could even take place, if we read the first paragraph here Northern Waste - Tolkien Gateway