Filling the Gaps: following in the footsteps of the Wildwood and the Angle

[Tirian-Hammerfist]

Great suggestions..

I really like the idea of the weather hills and Mount Gram connecting to the Ettenmoors. And on that topic, why not have the ettenmoors connected as PVE with the pvp versions lifted off the map, accessible only by horse or map like the pvp version of Osgilliath was.

Also, Emyn Muil, swanfleet and a door from Goblin Town to Wells of Langflood are musts; especially Emyn Muil. 15 years later, and we still can't completely follow the path of Fodo!

In addition, I'd say the Wulf's Cleft area of Dunland. We'll need to be able to walk the entire north/south road one day and this will block it if it isn't fixed.

And as always, that awful urban blight in front of Edoras needs to be fixed.

Yes please to Wulf’s Cleft - it has always felt illogical that it was blocked off. Phantion’s approach for doing this seems a good one for me.

As for the Goblin Town gate, I’m not really sure why this wasn’t an obvious go to when they made the zone.

[Thormund]

I don't like people sneaking out of bounds into undeveloped territory. My preferred approach is that if you want to do that, you should come work for us. Then you can see undeveloped territory to your heart's content!

MoL

That seems to be the common opinion of all SSG devs, but some players love to see unfinished or cut content.

Also the next filler landscape will probably the western part of the Shire between the Shire and Ered Luin.

In Update 32 there were massive landscape updates in this area that is now modelled from the Duilond gate to the Needlehole gate (also the waterfall at Needlehole was behaving a little weird in U32).

Directly west of Needlehole:This is near Annuminas, you can see part of it in the background:

[Tirian-Hammerfist]

Great ideas, especially Northern Lonelands but i think #1 priority should be connecting so lone Ered Luin to the rest of the world. No need to add full fledge zone like Tower Hills. It could be small road zone with size of Wildwood.

I thought about suggesting this, but then looked at the size of a potential zone - it would be pretty big. I hear what you say about just basing it around the road, but that potentially leads to more artificial walls, rather than opening up the Shire properly the west. When they do this area (and the Southfarthing), I think they need to go big and do it properly.

[Tirian-Hammerfist]

That seems to be the common opinion of all SSG devs, but some players love to see unfinished or cut content.

Also the next filler landscape will probably the western part of the Shire between the Shire and Ered Luin.

In Update 32 there were massive landscape updates in this area that is now modelled from the Duilond gate to the Needlehole gate (also the waterfall at Needlehole was behaving a little weird in U32).

Wow, this is some properly exciting stuff! To have things look this developed suggests we may be heading this way sooner rather than later.

The zone looks potentially pretty big - to connect the Shire (even at Needlehole) with Ered Luin and Annuminas (potentially via Northcotton Farm) is pretty vast, compared to the Wildwood.


Edit: As exciting as these images are, I wondered how you got them - was this accessible on Bullroarer?

[Thormund]

Wow, this is some properly exciting stuff! To have things look this developed suggests we may be heading this way sooner rather than later.

The zone looks potentially pretty big - to connect the Shire (even at Needlehole) with Ered Luin and Annuminas (potentially via Northcotton Farm) is pretty vast, compared to the Wildwood.


Edit: As exciting as these images are, I wondered how you got them - was this accessible on Bullroarer?

It wasn't, just some little player camera adjustments, the area is blocked of with invisible walls

[Aleziana]

So plan was Wildwood= Humans , Angles= Elvish and now i see a Hobbitish style area so the year after to expect a Dwarvish style area?

I only want an area to connect winter home (Frostbluff) with Forochel !!!!!!!

[YamydeAragon]

This is another huge area, that is all named but very few of the territory that isn't over the sea is actually used. A little revamp of the area that crush down the invisible walls, & let the players wonder on those terrains, filled with Artic adapted wildlife & some related new repeatable quest that reward reputation or some out the way camp with not so unfriendly Guaredain subtribe, may be done there. Also add more quests near the shore, something related to seals mammals & whales swimming on the distance.

[Harvain]

So plan was Wildwood= Humans , Angles= Elvish and now i see a Hobbitish style area so the year after to expect a Dwarvish style area?

I only want an area to connect winter home (Frostbluff) with Forochel !!!!!!!

Well Angle has a more Dunedain/Arnor/Race of Men + Elven vibe than being pure elvish.

[Phantion]

Well Angle has a more Dunedain/Arnor/Race of Men + Elven vibe than being pure elvish.

In the eye of the beholder

I think it's about what stands out to you more.

On the one hand:

There are Rhudauran ruins in the western and southern areas of the Angle, including quite the castle situated prominently on the last cliff before the Angle falls to a river-level where the rivers converge. There's the Dunedain village at the foot at said ruined castle. There's also that 1 homestead out there and the Stoor ruins.

On the other hand, two of the stable-master hubs are situated at or near fairly sprawling Elven ruins. Gwingris is a central landscape feature, prominent in fact, in the northeastern Angle. The rear-side of Eregion's missing parts straddles the whole zone, situating Gwingris, the holly forest, the westernmost tip of Hollin Ridge, Barad Morlas, Burnt Tor, and Mirobel and Tham Mirdain prominently in camera-view, holly trees all the way.

I think what makes the Elven vibes stand out to some is, believe it or not, the trees. The autumn trees really can give a more Elven vibe from the Trollshaws' soundtrack and Rivendell- plus, they wove-in some Eregion-style holly bushes and other trees throughout. Then there's that sky........ that night sky............ deep blue rising to the darkness between the stars, which I have to say makes Eregion at night at a distance when viewed from the Angle look far better than it actually does in Eregion.

Now I really hope Scenario would consider actually giving Eregion's night-sky the same blue effects the Angle night sky does- they've really outdone themselves with this one!

Anyways- I can see it the other way too, where one could mentally associate the autumn trees with the Rhudaur ruins along with the pines, where the Dunedain stand-out more than the Elves, etc. That's what makes this a good new zone: there's more than 1 way to take-it-in as a player

I'd christen it with an "Enedwaith" vibe. Enedwaith is a melting pot between the Dwarven themed Thror's Coomb, the Elven Fordirith, the Stoors Gloomglens, and, of course, the Grey Company camps and Dunlending / Algraig villages....... never mind the Giants, Wights / Gaunt-Lords, and Draigoch... and then there's the Mournshaws, it's own "other world" replete with mysterious "Silmarillion" vibes. Angle also feels like a melting pot of things: Elves, Dunedain, a wayward Dunlending clan, White Hand enemies, some Hobbit history, and those dear unaffiliated homesteaders just trying to live their lives.

It's my favorite kind of zone. There's always something more to find in it, and it's not exclusively "just 1 thing" like they were forced to when developing whole countries like Gondor and Rohan.

------------

I'm also very excited.................. from those screenshots in posts above.......... can it be that they are truly filling-in the missing terrain between Ered Luin, Evendim, and the Shire? Are Tower Hills on the horizon?

Cheers!

[auximenes]

I don't like people sneaking out of bounds into undeveloped territory. My preferred approach is that if you want to do that, you should come work for us. Then you can see undeveloped territory to your heart's content!

I've been admonished . My normal procedure for exploring new zones is to see where the boundaries are so I circumnavigate the zone as best as possible and then go back to the starting point and follow the quest flow. I didn't intend on escaping the bounds of Mirkwood, I was just exploring the little strip of land along the little east-west running waterway at the southern edge and happened to jump up onto a portion of the southern bank which was intended to be out-of-bounds. Once I was out I couldn't help but to explore. I think the escape point was fixed but that's moot since you get auto-ported back to your starter zone now when you escape the boundaries.

[Tirian-Hammerfist]

So plan was Wildwood= Humans , Angles= Elvish and now i see a Hobbitish style area so the year after to expect a Dwarvish style area?

I only want an area to connect winter home (Frostbluff) with Forochel !!!!!!!

For a dwarven style zone, maybe the Misty Mountains one that I proposed above? Or perhaps Sarnur? (Took a screenshot of it on the Google Map as a proposed area, but didn’t show it here).

[Tirian-Hammerfist]

This is another huge area, that is all named but very few of the territory that isn't over the sea is actually used. A little revamp of the area that crush down the invisible walls, & let the players wonder on those terrains, filled with Artic adapted wildlife & some related new repeatable quest that reward reputation or some out the way camp with not so unfriendly Guaredain subtribe, may be done there. Also add more quests near the shore, something related to seals mammals & whales swimming on the distance.

The area between Forochel and Evendim was, in my head canon, is a region I wanted to suggest as ‘the Kingdom of the Gauredain’, although it was quite a big space, so I didn’t end up proposing it. However, if we are getting the gap between Evendim, Ered Luin and the Shire, that’s potentially quite a big space too (although I imagine the Grey Havens/Tower Hills won’t be included).

[Tirian-Hammerfist]

That seems to be the common opinion of all SSG devs, but some players love to see unfinished or cut content.

Also the next filler landscape will probably the western part of the Shire between the Shire and Ered Luin.

In Update 32 there were massive landscape updates in this area that is now modelled from the Duilond gate to the Needlehole gate (also the waterfall at Needlehole was behaving a little weird in U32).

Will this mean we also finally get legitimate access to the fortress across the Lhun? Surely they can’t go this close to it and not extend up to this place which has captivated players for ages!

[Tirian-Hammerfist]

I was thinking about those images shared by Thormund and have attached what I think is likely for this zone, based on the description of where these images were located and how large the zone would potentially be.

In the image below, the orange Xs are roughly where the images were from, based on Thormund's descriptions (please correct me if I'm wrong). That makes the red area what I think is likely to be added if this is a 'filling in the gaps' kind of zone.

However, given there's no natural barrier along the south of this zone, I wonder whether this is actually part of a bigger piece of development which will extend further south (the blue area), to cover all of the western border of the current Shire (potentially even including the Grey Havens?)

Either iteration of the zone, however, is certainly much bigger than the Wildwood or the Angle, although it certainly is filling in a long remarked-about gap!

[Harvain]

I was thinking about those images shared by Thormund and have attached what I think is likely for this zone, based on the description of where these images were located and how large the zone would potentially be.

In the image below, the orange Xs are roughly where the images were from, based on Thormund's descriptions (please correct me if I'm wrong). That makes the red area what I think is likely to be added if this is a 'filling in the gaps' kind of zone.

However, given there's no natural barrier along the south of this zone, I wonder whether this is actually part of a bigger piece of development which will extend further south (the blue area), to cover all of the western border of the current Shire (potentially even including the Grey Havens?)

Either iteration of the zone, however, is certainly much bigger than the Wildwood or the Angle, although it certainly is filling in a long remarked-about gap!

Well the Grey Havens sits alongside the Eastern Shore of the River Lhun and it is directly West of Hobbiton and just "slightly" to the North.

So pretty much the clump of Tree or near about is where the Grey Havens, the port itself, will be located at the mouth of the River Lhun becomes wider into the Gulf of Lhun.

Likely requiring some maps adjustments but the Lore has exactly where it should be.



The area lying in between the Grey Havens, the River Lhun, Evendim and the Shire has always been portrayed as a land that is featureless: lacking any terrain, notable spots, etc.

So more than likely this "Empty Land" pending how it was added would basically have nearby features.

For example, the Western side would have the River Lhun as a natural barrier. It's Northern/North-East side closest to Evendim would have the the Hills of Evendim as well as a tributary that flows into the River Lhun. South & South East would have what we already see near the Shire's Northern/North-West parts.

Then the Great East Road would be a key feature in the middle, akin to how the rest of said Road is and possibly a little better condition due to it being closer to the Elves & Dwarves and theory-sake of them maintaining such more than other Groups who inhabited near or along the Great East Road.

Edit: And the Tower Hills which will lie X amount East of the Grey Havens but closer to it and then X amount west of the Shire and specifically the White Downs, already in LOTRO, which make up the Little Delving & Michel Delving for the hills they are built into.

So pretty much it's more that empty spot above the Grey Havens and the Great East Road which would see SSG having the "make up" what lies there if they ever added anything.

[Phantion]

I will say I made some discoveries on BR.......but that unfortunately I'm too squeamish to share them at present....... at least until SSG makes some formal announcements on their plans for the new region. I don't want to accidentally over-step SSG and accidentally reveal things they don't want revealed yet.


I will just say a few things that I could see from playable spaces in the game-world:

A- That there are towering hills just rising south of the Falathlorn homesteads. No signs of any Grey Havens. Whether these would be playable spaces or background / zone barriers remains uncertain. But they are prominent landscape features. If I had to guess right now, I'd guess that no Grey Havens yet; they look like a zone barrier far more than a feature so far.

B- There are forests / development along the whole northern borders of the Shire.

C- From what I could see from the Evendim side, the Emyn Uial remains fundamentally impassible with no signs of any passes; the tall, rocky mountainous hills and cliffs south of Evendim are likely to be the zone's northern boundaries, per what little I could see. I would say that the screenshot of the Evendim buildings looks like its on the southern side of those cliffs without signs of a clear passage between these areas.

D- No signs of development north of the current Ered Luin. It appears the River Lhun will not be extended north. The prominent mountainous hills due west of the Arnor ruins you can see across the Lhun look to be further indications that that's the northern boundary of the new zone.

E- Southern boundaries for the zone remain uncertain.

Cheers!

[Harvain]

I will say I made some discoveries on BR.......but that unfortunately I'm too squeamish to share them at present....... at least until SSG makes some formal announcements on their plans for the new region. I don't want to accidentally over-step SSG and accidentally reveal things they don't want revealed yet.

If we never see you post again, we know that Scenario & MoL sent a team to take you out.

[Phantion]

If we never see you post again, we know that Scenario & MoL sent a team to take you out.

I will say that their invisible walls are strong....... may this knowledge grant them great relief! I have literally no idea how that other poster got those screenshots- and nor do I wish to know. Some roads are too perilous!


---


That U32 launches this week honestly tells me that......... if I had to take a gander at a guess, I wouldn't be surprised at all if the next new smaller zone turned out to be a Spring update of some sort or another. That would make some sense to me

It would also make sense RE- comparing with previous update cycles where we typically had 1 bigger zone update in a season. If you add Angle + the new zone between the Shire and Ered Luin, you'd basically have that.

I'm very curious to think about what the level range would be. An alternative to Bree? Obviously it could not be much higher than the starter areas as its in between them. So....... alternate leveling for Shire and Ered Luin? That would be my next educated guess. It would also make the barriers between this new area and Evendim make some leveling sense: they might worry about, say, a level 10 accidentally crossing into an area that's mostly populated by level 36-40 mobs. So that also would make some sense to me for them to............ give it the northern Wildermore treatment, sort to speak, versus Great River.

Cheers!

[Tirian-Hammerfist]

I will say I made some discoveries on BR.......but that unfortunately I'm too squeamish to share them at present....... at least until SSG makes some formal announcements on their plans for the new region. I don't want to accidentally over-step SSG and accidentally reveal things they don't want revealed yet.


I will just say a few things that I could see from playable spaces in the game-world:

A- That there are towering hills just rising south of the Falathlorn homesteads. No signs of any Grey Havens. Whether these would be playable spaces or background / zone barriers remains uncertain. But they are prominent landscape features. If I had to guess right now, I'd guess that no Grey Havens yet; they look like a zone barrier far more than a feature so far.

B- There are forests / development along the whole northern borders of the Shire.

C- From what I could see from the Evendim side, the Emyn Uial remains fundamentally impassible with no signs of any passes; the tall, rocky mountainous hills and cliffs south of Evendim are likely to be the zone's northern boundaries, per what little I could see. I would say that the screenshot of the Evendim buildings looks like its on the southern side of those cliffs without signs of a clear passage between these areas.

D- No signs of development north of the current Ered Luin. It appears the River Lhun will not be extended north. The prominent mountainous hills due west of the Arnor ruins you can see across the Lhun look to be further indications that that's the northern boundary of the new zone.

E- Southern boundaries for the zone remain uncertain.

Cheers!

Thanks for sharing this - I wasn't able to get on to Bullroarer in time to take a look!

Based on the image I shared above, would I be right in thinking that the red circled area is pretty much the boundaries, but with the northern boundary pulled a little further south to align with the most northerly accessible point of the Lhun?

I guess the blue bit (based on what Harvain pointed out) might come later, given that it includes the Tower Hills and the Grey Havens.

As for the Evendim link, I'd be disappointed if there wasn't at least one path through the hills to this new zone: I'd hope that there'd be a path through the hills out the back of Annuminas, as well as relatively unrestricted access out of the northern borders of the Shire and from Northcotton Farm (as well as from Ered Luin to the west).

[Tirian-Hammerfist]

I will say that their invisible walls are strong....... may this knowledge grant them great relief! I have literally no idea how that other poster got those screenshots- and nor do I wish to know. Some roads are too perilous!

That U32 launches this week honestly tells me that......... if I had to take a gander at a guess, I wouldn't be surprised at all if the next new smaller zone turned out to be a Spring update of some sort or another. That would make some sense to me

It would also make sense RE- comparing with previous update cycles where we typically had 1 bigger zone update in a season. If you add Angle + the new zone between the Shire and Ered Luin, you'd basically have that.

I'm very curious to think about what the level range would be. An alternative to Bree? Obviously it could not be much higher than the starter areas as its in between them. So....... alternate leveling for Shire and Ered Luin? That would be my next educated guess. It would also make the barriers between this new area and Evendim make some leveling sense: they might worry about, say, a level 10 accidentally crossing into an area that's mostly populated by level 36-40 mobs. So that also would make some sense to me for them to............ give it the northern Wildermore treatment, sort to speak, versus Great River.

Cheers!

I think a Bree alternative would be good (18+, ish?). Although if there was one path with perhaps some hobbit-made warning signs on it, which headed into the back of Annuminas, that should surely be sufficient care for an adventurer in their teens or tweens!

[Phantion]

Thanks for sharing this - I wasn't able to get on to Bullroarer in time to take a look!

Based on the image I shared above, would I be right in thinking that the red circled area is pretty much the boundaries, but with the northern boundary pulled a little further south to align with the most northerly accessible point of the Lhun?

I guess the blue bit (based on what Harvain pointed out) might come later, given that it includes the Tower Hills and the Grey Havens.

As for the Evendim link, I'd be disappointed if there wasn't at least one path through the hills to this new zone: I'd hope that there'd be a path through the hills out the back of Annuminas, as well as relatively unrestricted access out of the northern borders of the Shire and from Northcotton Farm (as well as from Ered Luin to the west).

Sure

I can say that................... Look on your map where the hills south of Annuminas hit the rear of NCF. Then-------- follow that more or less horizontally, and there may be some vales thrown in there, but basically consider the southern side of those mountains as the northern boundary --------- again perhaps with some variations Central-Gondor or southern Westfold-style- but mainly along that horizontal trajectory until it dips northward toward the Arnor ruins on the Ered Luin side and then basically stops where Ered Luin currently does.

The screenshot where you can see Annuminas to the right corroborates this- and that can give us an idea of the northernmost extent of the northern boundary that's north of the Shire, basically. That, from what I understand so far, is how north you could go for potentially most of the zone, and it might, again, simply be that this Evendim-ish area is carved out more northward (*like comparing....... Ringlo Vale and Dor-en-Ernil when it comes to longitude).

But there's also some gaps in our knowledge; so, like I said, we don't know precisely how many vales there might be or how far north those cuts in the cliffs would get you, etc. But so far, it's looking like a fairly solid Wall of boundaries between Evendim and the new region.

Some of the blue bit may appear in this update per the heavy landscape changes across the river from Falathlorn / Celondim --- but again, it's not clear as to whether those are background spaces or playable spaces. From the Falathlorn side, those towering hills look unplayable, and there aren't any signs of, say, Grey Havens appearing south of Celondim or what-not.

But if I could map-out LOTRO's map-scaling versus Tolkien's map, these towering hills...................... really, I'll be more surprised if they turn out --- not --- to be the Tower Hills, as per the truncated map scale, Grey Havens should not be far from Celondim as far as the map scale goes.

Like, they'd have to over-exaggerate their own map scale coordinates-wise to push those places further away from the playable Falathlorn areas, and the sign on the map near Rath Teraig has never made any sense to me because I know the Grey Havens are right where the Lhun exits into the Gulf of Lhun, and I know that, per the terrainmap plugin, that spot is visible on the map or like razor-thin close to it where you see the river going south of Celondim.

Yeah, as far as those hills go- nothing to the back of Evendim that I could see so far.


Cheers!

[Phantion]

I think a Bree alternative would be good (18+, ish?). Although if there was one path with perhaps some hobbit-made warning signs on it, which headed into the back of Annuminas, that should surely be sufficient care for an adventurer in their teens or tweens!

Yeah I was thinking Bree-land tends to be..... levels 14 - 20 - starting with the Sharkey business on the Greenway and going up to Thornley's Worksite and then down to Adso's Camp, and the Buckland stuff......... Ered Luin and the Shire tend to get you to level 14 thereabouts or so.

It would then make it important, I think, for them to next give an alternative to the Lone-Lands (level 20-30) - given that Trollshaws and Evendim and ND already give some variance for the level 30 - 40 range, and of course, Angmar and Forochel and Misties actually made it quite difficult to get from level 40-45. Mostly, I'd be like using accelerators to get level 43-44 out of Evendim but barely squeezing it to then go to Eregion for slightly over-leveled quests to make up the difference.

The Fem arc is not really substantial, I've found, for that type of leveling; I always found myself running out of level 40-45 quests in Angmar and Forochel, and Forochel and Angmar both seemed really more useful for the 45 - 50 trajectory.

So, to that extent, the Angle at 40-45 is pretty welcome and a good way to get from Trollshaws to the Angle and to Eregion and so on in sequence.

The new region would be pretty good in that............ you've got the more Elven parts closer to Ered Luin, I'm thinking, and the more Hobbity parts close to the Shire, I'm speculating, and also, Dwarves as traders would take those routes....... so I think it does give some more opportunities for different groups to level in places that make some more sense to level in.

The cool part is it'll finally bring full contiguity to Middle-earth when it comes to portals being mere minor boundaries between more or less the same locales on different coordinates. No more vast gaps between whole chunks of landscape (*not counting Gladdenmere, but there's plenty of contiguity between Vales of Anduin and other regions). Finally, we'll be able to ride from Thorin's Hall straight through the Shire, up through Evendim, ND, Angmar, down through Car Bronach, Elderslade, Ered Mithrin, and out to Erebor- + name your variations of other routes through Middle-earth. It is pretty awesome

Cheers!

[Tirian-Hammerfist]

Ok, so based on what you've said, I've drawn an updated zone (below) in red.

The dark blue line is where the Great East Road seems likely to be, and the purple cross in the top right is roughly where the location of the Evendim-esque ruin is (although potentially further west, now I look at the angle on that screenshot again). The purple arrow is the route I suggest for a little cut through into Echad Garthadir, using a hill paths which can be found in Men Erain (and which are one of my favourite parts of Evendim as a whole) - for this not to happen would be a big missed opportunity.

I've also included a blue area (including where the Tower Hills roughly are in pink, although I think they go further south too). The yellow X is roughly where the Grey Havens should be, and the orange semi-circles are the Far Downs, according to what I could see from various LOTR maps.

Two questions remain, for me (and I'm not necessarily expecting anyone to know the answer!):
1) Could this zone extend far south enough to take in the full western border of the Shire (and the Far Downs)?
2) What should this zone be called? If the Far Downs were in it, I'd say that was an obvious name - but if they aren't, I'm less sure. Perhaps the Northfarthing?

[Tirian-Hammerfist]

Also thinking about the new Hobbit villages that this would add: from what I can see on various maps, the villages of Gamwich, Nobottle and Tighfield seem to be found in this north-western area, as well as potentially Long Cleeve and Hardbottle more directly north of Bindbole Wood.

There is also, according to the maps I've seen (not sure of the veracity of them!) an area called the North Moors, just south of Annuminas - I wonder if that will feature!

EDIT: Some maps place Hardbottle in the south, although the wikis that I have seen say it is the north (and is the place that Lobelia, who was a Bracegirdle before being a Sackville-Baggins) came from.

Map added below, with potential locations: Tf: Tighfield, Gw: Gamwich, Hb: Hardbottle, LC: Long Cleeve, No: Nobottle. Nm: North Moors (although didn't see where they might fit, based on the current LOTRO map), with GH in the south being Grey Havens.

[Valather89]

There are hints that point to this new area going by the name of Yondershire.