Filling the Gaps: following in the footsteps of the Wildwood and the Angle

[TesalionLortus]

Scenario has mentioned that they moved smaller things like instances out of the way, when building stuff like Yondershire, because those were in the way of the new map area. Not that they have moved the entire main map itself. Two different things entirely from a programming perspective.

Not different, one is just more time-consuming. Anyway, worst case scenario we'll just need teleports and will have new region maps. I can take it. The region border on Harnen and off we go, into expansive Harad and Umbar that have enough space to grow in whichever direction. I'm still not sure what they wanna include for Umbar, it should be stage and center of this expansion, not some afterthought enclosure roughly around the city in addition to repeated Gondor landscape and Anfalas. Gondor was like their biggest sin/bad compression that they're now correcting by delving into these valleys (kind of). The sense of scale going South and with boats in play should be much larger. The distances will be alight if they keep their current track record of scale but sometimes something like they've done with Evendim Lake where it's a bit overblown for sense of awe might be a great idea for these coastline features, bays, and river mouths.

Also, I specifically remember Sev who said things like "expect us to go South" around the time when they first announced Umbar (to question regarding Gondor/future updates of landscape, not expansion specifically), so not sure, that comment hardly makes sense?

[Phantion]

Not different, one is just more time-consuming. Anyway, worst case scenario we'll just need teleports and will have new region maps. I can take it. The region border on Harnen and off we go, into expansive Harad and Umbar that have enough space to grow in whichever direction. I'm still not sure what they wanna include for Umbar, it should be stage and center of this expansion, not some afterthought enclosure roughly around the city in addition to repeated Gondor landscape and Anfalas. Gondor was like their biggest sin/bad compression that they're now correcting by delving into these valleys (kind of). The sense of scale going South and with boats in play should be much larger. The distances will be alight if they keep their current track record of scale but sometimes something like they've done with Evendim Lake where it's a bit overblown for sense of awe might be a great idea for these coastline features, bays, and river mouths.

Also, I specifically remember Sev who said things like "expect us to go South" around the time when they first announced Umbar (to question regarding Gondor/future updates of landscape, not expansion specifically), so not sure, that comment hardly makes sense?

Well, I quibble, but "expect us to go South" still makes sense given the current content of the time = Gundabad, Angle, Yondershire, CardoSwan, and "revisioned CD in Angmar," all of which are still far North of Gondor. Gondor's still "South" relative to those areas.

Here's honestly my take. Ok- what would I rather have, if they insist on finishing King's Gondor and then having Umbar? A rushed job that compresses too much of Harondor, etc., to get there, or to let 'em finish Gondor and just use Umbar as the "point of entry" a great deal south of there where it should be on the map, slowly building back to Gondor like they did between Strongholds of the North and Lothlorien??? They could even use "regular regional zone updates (*not expansions)" to build out the area bit by bit some more.

*Remember the cautionary tale of the Iron Hills and how they overly-compressed that region. I would very much like them to avoid a repeat of that worldbuilding style with Harondor, etc. Devs, please do consider using the Cardo-Swan approach instead; it gives the world more justice to its scale

I'm excited to see the Southron realms too! But I'd rather that they do them right. No need for them to bite off more than they can chew. I'd say to them: Take your time and do it justice, please Whatever it takes, however long it takes, etc. I do agree with you about the sea, bays, inlets, etc.

Cheers!

[Arnand_the_Fox]

Not different, one is just more time-consuming.

Its such a completely different things that I can't take this sort of response seriously. I don't believe for a second you don't understand the difference between those things.

Also, I specifically remember Sev who said things like "expect us to go South" around the time when they first announced Umbar (to question regarding Gondor/future updates of landscape, not expansion specifically), so not sure, that comment hardly makes sense?

Gondor and Umbar are way to the south of everything else they've done for the last like 2 years.

[Aleziana]

Out of context.


I would really like in case Umbar will be added in the same region as Mordor/After Battle Gondor to rename From "Mordor" to " South Lands" . :P

Like Eriador/ Rovahnion / Gondor (pre battle) / South-Lands

[TesalionLortus]

Nah, Southlands has gotten... bad vibes for some of us now :P If they were to rename, then I think the simplest would be "After" or "After Battle" since it encompasses more than just one kingdom/area and resolves heavily around lands, well, After a certain Battle. Also, would kinda highlight the very fact that it's alternative space for all of these Gondorian places, right there in the map title, so far less confusing.

Well, I quibble, but "expect us to go South" still makes sense given the current content of the time = Gundabad, Angle, Yondershire, CardoSwan, and "revisioned CD in Angmar," all of which are still far North of Gondor. Gondor's still "South" relative to those areas.

Well, technically, sure, I guess. But there were people in the chat specifically asking about things like are we going to Harondor, or Harad, etc, so giving an answer like that is certainly misleading when everyone asks about directions in relation to Gondor itself :P Like, nobody in the chat was thinking about Forodwaith obviously, because they had already reveled the road leads to Umbar and it was the question of which way. But I guess they may... make comments like that on purpose sometime?

Ok- what would I rather have, if they insist on finishing King's Gondor and then having Umbar? A rushed job that compresses too much of Harondor, etc., to get there, or to let 'em finish Gondor and just use Umbar as the "point of entry" a great deal south of there where it should be on the map, slowly building back to Gondor like they did between Strongholds of the North and Lothlorien??? They could even use "regular regional zone updates (*not expansions)" to build out the area bit by bit some more.

*Remember the cautionary tale of the Iron Hills and how they overly-compressed that region. I would very much like them to avoid a repeat of that worldbuilding style with Harondor, etc. Devs, please do consider using the Cardo-Swan approach instead; it gives the world more justice to its scale

I'm excited to see the Southron realms too! But I'd rather that they do them right. No need for them to bite off more than they can chew. I'd say to them: Take your time and do it justice, please Whatever it takes, however long it takes, etc. I do agree with you about the sea, bays, inlets, etc.

Yeah, 100% this. Technically, if they have to use a portal anyway to make that happen (assuming, this time, they don't put Umbar in the corner of a new map and then clutter everything around it with instances and copies of things :P) then is easy to avoid Strongholds of the North situation because the map is basically empty and you can freely develop over time as needed, so can freely grow into limitless Harad territory and to the border of Harondor (which itself should fit into Mordor map). So I really can't see them screwing this up, in this situation!

Say, it would be a little lackluster, if 70% expansion is Gondor and then Umbar as city with some little bits around it, but ultimately I'm fine with it as long as we grow Umbar from there with the adjacent territories and distances it needs between it and Harondor
(though would still beg the general question of what they were thinking - because, in this scenario, I can already hear complaints, especially that they teased "new biomes" like that and got everyone excited the landmass is going to be.. a little different)

Its such a completely different things that I can't take this sort of response seriously. I don't believe for a second you don't understand the difference between those things.

OK... ? No need to get frustrated over this. I'm no dev so I don't know any specifics of course but it really doesn't seem any different technically, since lots of these copies and instanced spaces also have quests and NPCs in them, with different things, scripts and all sorts of stuff with coordinates attached to everything. So I don't see how they're completely different? Technically? Though moving the entire block of existing zones would be certainly far more time-consuming and unpleasant with potential to introduce more bugs, that's true and I did acknowledge that.

[Maedol]

Not different, one is just more time-consuming. Anyway, worst case scenario we'll just need teleports and will have new region maps. I can take it. The region border on Harnen and off we go, into expansive Harad and Umbar that have enough space to grow in whichever direction. I'm still not sure what they wanna include for Umbar, it should be stage and center of this expansion, not some afterthought enclosure roughly around the city in addition to repeated Gondor landscape and Anfalas. Gondor was like their biggest sin/bad compression that they're now correcting by delving into these valleys (kind of). The sense of scale going South and with boats in play should be much larger. The distances will be alight if they keep their current track record of scale but sometimes something like they've done with Evendim Lake where it's a bit overblown for sense of awe might be a great idea for these coastline features, bays, and river mouths.

Also, I specifically remember Sev who said things like "expect us to go South" around the time when they first announced Umbar (to question regarding Gondor/future updates of landscape, not expansion specifically), so not sure, that comment hardly makes sense?

I immediately remember the Agoroth instance, which is geographically located in Forochel in an area inaccessible on the map, but the location is still closed (as well as there is still no map in the instance itself).

I hope when the map update reaches this region, this location will not be forgotten.

[TesalionLortus]

I immediately remember the Agoroth instance, which is geographically located in Forochel in an area inaccessible on the map, but the location is still closed (as well as there is still no map in the instance itself).

This is in separate instanced space, I guess, and regardless I guess doesn't make sense to "open it up" to explore since it's supposed to be this forgotten, secret, frozen over citadel, so kinda weird if you were to bump into it just like that and take a look around without any of the "residents" inside. I guess they could just put its name on the new map though. Or, if they ever expanded into Southern borders of Forochel connecting to Northern Ered Luin, then they could just build an additional exterior space of it around that spot where the entrance is, sort of what's yet visible on the surface, maybe some peaks of towers visible through ice and snow and such.

[Arnand_the_Fox]

I just thought of something interesting.

Depending on how much of the bay of Umbar they give us, they could give us the very northern tip of the grey mountains of the south, and probably introduce some southern dwarven offshoot clan in the process.

[TesalionLortus]

Yes... but maybe not now... given how they also include dwarves in Gondor now... LOL. And there is enough on their plate already and big expectation here with a place like Umbar as it is, without throwing dwarves into it as well. But yeah, this is something that would be neat to explore eventually, if they could justify the Southern dwarves somewhat interestingly, since - I assume - Abnúzhu were never in Harad, or... where they? Well, that's certainly something they could play with. I noticed this before, that the situation with the clans is a bit weird, and it's unclear how the Eastern pairs were placed, originally:

Even more confusing now is that Ered Cernin (a mountain range far to the east of Middle-earth, beyond Rhun) (=Orocarnii) is said to be home to Zhélruka and Abnúzhu dwarven clans - but not Kámbrada! Though Zhelruka are said to have awakened near to the Kámbrada, with whom they fought over the resources of Ered Cernin... so it's weird. Is that one of those times when a mistake occurred in Lotro's writing? Or is that intentional and Kámbrada awoken first but like... abandoned their original homeland and usurped Ered Cernin so that would mean 3 houses used to live there and even more confusing... there were *multiple* disasters, including the fall of Morgoth, the most recent one, Sauron's attack (attacks) and dragons who were drawn to their rings. Their history sounds quite harsh... even compared to the Longbeards. Or perhaps it's Abnúzhu who awoken somewhere else but changed their location to Ered Cernin? This gotta be explained!

That leaves us with Temámir... who we know for certain didn't originate in Ered Cernin. (Or did they?)

Which is confusing enough and leaves some room to make sense of it, besides - Longbeards themselves were scattered like from Ered Luin to Iron Hills, so not unlikely for some of the others to be as well, with many different dwellings, rather than just static. Maybe it's not unlikely that they all originated in Orocarnii but the pairs were placed further away from each other, and Abnúzhu colonized Mordor's mountains from their Southern dwellings of Orocarnii and then that branch colonized even further into Harad and then was cut off when Sauron arose. Or maybe the devs just wanna put one dwarven pair in Mordor, initially, since that would qualify as "Eastern" mountains yet wouldn't be Orocarnii, or maybe they just wanna come up with brand new smaller mountain chain East of Harad. There are some options here.

[TesalionLortus]

As for Umbar, assuming the plan is indeed redoing the entire Gondor on After and there is no way in the world they would move everything North to give Harad/Umbar some breathing room on that map, then I guess this is the best (and most likely) option for how to handle map situation:






- One massive border/invisible wall/teleport border on sea.

- Harnen as border, with one or few teleport points where appropriate.

- Housing area with open-space invisible borders, like Breeland Homesteads now. (But upon entry actually ports you to housing in old Gondor space, and yeah, hopefully with new terrain changes brought over : )

- On brand new open world map, as in "region 6" "the South", Umbar space initially in its own bubble, but well-placed so enough space North for all the ground that needs to be covered to Harnen. And with some foresight... put in the top left corner of the heightmap file (though with some wiggle room for expanding sea borders to the West, just in case for whatever reason, for boat action, cursed Othbreaker vessels, or maybe if they ever have ideas for some island expansion in these Southern lands?)

- Proportion-wise, as I very roughly demonstrated, Umbar bay may be expanded quite a bit for cool worldbuilding and immersion purposes (come on, those Corsairs war fleets, present day or flashbacks, gotta have some space on the waters! The way it was done in Gondor was incredibly cluttered, fine back then, but a bit too cluttered if you wanna have player boats or scenic Corsair landscapes). Since it would be on another map, after a teleport, wouldn't really be too jarring, if the bay was overblown compared to what we had in Gondor for such places and coastal areas. Not much different from overblown Mt Doom or Evendim.


Now, if Umbar is like in addition to Gondor landscape (??) as part of one expansion (?), which is still a bit weird and unclear to me whether that's what Scenario meant, I guess the size of landscape on my roughly done picture above seems too insane and impossible - but, but... if they're smart with these boats and if they're actually making traversable/quest-able water a reality, then the realistic - and still sizeable, impressive, scenic, COOL scenario - may be to do just the BAY ALONE, as in expansive water in the bay, with bits of shores here and there and the city/smaller surroundings. Now, THAT I can understand. The Northern mountains of the bay might create such a neat barrier and we don't even need that entire northern bit of land initially. But then they can easily grow the world around Umbar from there and fill in the missing pieces of the puzzle, oh and also take that land (and sea) route back to Gondor. Though maybe we could also take a "quick ship" back to Pelargil and get back to Nurn from there at some point too or someplace else, so it's not like 2-4 years dedication of growing the South alone.

[Arnand_the_Fox]

Yes... but maybe not now... given how they also include dwarves in Gondor now... LOL. And there is enough on their plate already and big expectation here with a place like Umbar as it is, without throwing dwarves into it as well. But yeah, this is something that would be neat to explore eventually, if they could justify the Southern dwarves somewhat interestingly, since - I assume - Abnúzhu were never in Harad, or... where they? Well, that's certainly something they could play with. I noticed this before, that the situation with the clans is a bit weird, and it's unclear how the Eastern pairs were placed, originally:

Which is confusing enough and leaves some room to make sense of it, besides - Longbeards themselves were scattered like from Ered Luin to Iron Hills, so not unlikely for some of the others to be as well, with many different dwellings, rather than just static. Maybe it's not unlikely that they all originated in Orocarnii but the pairs were placed further away from each other, and Abnúzhu colonized Mordor's mountains from their Southern dwellings of Orocarnii and then that branch colonized even further into Harad and then was cut off when Sauron arose. Or maybe the devs just wanna put one dwarven pair in Mordor, initially, since that would qualify as "Eastern" mountains yet wouldn't be Orocarnii, or maybe they just wanna come up with brand new smaller mountain chain East of Harad. There are some options here.

Well the Longbeard situation makes sense.

They originally came from Durin himself, who awoke in Gundabad. Though Durin didn't stay at Gundabad, or found a city there himself, and instead moved south to found Moria. The Longbeards later took in the survivors of the "Narfanghoth" and "Landorrim" clans after their cities were destroyed by the War of Wrath, and the sinking of Beleriand. After the fall of Moria they went to Erebor, which already existed as a city by then, and made that their capital. They eventually tried making a new Kingdom in the Grey Mountains, but that failed, and they went back to Erebor as their capital. After Erebor fell they fled to the Blue Mountains since that was the last place, besides the Iron Hills, they really could go. With Erebor being reclaimed from Smaug after the events of The Hobbit, many of the Longbeards moved back there from the Blue Mountains. Though they also kept their cities in the Blue Mountains alive. The Longbeard/Narfanghoth/Landorrim amalgamation group has had it rough.

The Ered Cernin not being the home of the Kámbrada also makes sense. Its stated Sauron destroyed their halls and took most of them as slaves, who then became the Stout Axes of Mordor. This seemingly happened between T.A. 2799(Sixth War of Dwarves and Orcs), and T.A 3018(War of the Ring) So the Ered Cernin not being their home is accurate. Their home in the Ered Cernin was destroyed by Sauron, and they were carted off to Mordor. Their home is Mordor, regardless of them having an origin/original home in the Ered Cernin in the past.

[TesalionLortus]

The Ered Cernin not being the home of the Kámbrada also makes sense. Its stated Sauron destroyed their halls and took most of them as slaves, who then became the Stout Axes of Mordor. This seemingly happened between T.A. 2799(Sixth War of Dwarves and Orcs), and T.A 3018(War of the Ring) So the Ered Cernin not being their home is accurate. Their home in the Ered Cernin was destroyed by Sauron, and they were carted off to Mordor. Their home is Mordor, regardless of them having an origin/original home in the Ered Cernin in the past.

Well, yea, in this context it actually made perfect sense before, although in Gundabad it was confirmed surviving "neo" Kámbrada actually still exist, somehow unaware or paying little heed to their Stoux-axe counterparts in Mordor, so one may wonder where do those "new" Kámbrada dwarves live now.

[Arnand_the_Fox]

Well, yea, in this context it actually made perfect sense before, although in Gundabad it was confirmed surviving "neo" Kámbrada actually still exist, somehow unaware or paying little heed to their Stoux-axe counterparts in Mordor, so one may wonder where do those "new" Kámbrada dwarves live now.

Probably the same thing that happened to the Narfanghoth and Landorrim. After their home was destroyed, and most were carted off to Mordor, the survivors/escapees likely took shelter with the Abnúzhu and Temámir clans. Like how the others did with the Longbeards of Moria. Even if they had knowledge of the rest of their kind surviving in Mordor there wasn't much, if anything, they could do to help them.

[LagunaD2]

[Dorfs getting their fat butts kicked from one end of Middle-earth to the other]

The last thing this game, or Middle-earth, needs is more #$@%&^! dorfs.

[Phantion]

There's no great mystery behind the Dwarves in Gondor. Maybe Blood of Azog created some narrative gaps / discrepancies, perhaps even a plot-hole to fill-in.

Right from the get-go, in LOTRO, there were 5 Dwarven origins: Ered Luin, Grey Mountains, Iron Hills, Erebor, and White Mountains.

Strongholds of the North and Dwarf-holds gave the next 3 main origin locations after Ered Luin.

Only one was missing: the White Mountain Dwarves.

In Volume III, which long predated "Blood of Azog," we encountered some White Mountain Dwarves - and apparently the Gemcutters were connected with them. There was Ond out in the Heath-fells playing a role against Isengard.

Then, somehow, with Erebor, suddenly, all the Gemcutters were Longbeards: a very odd ret-con. I suppose that means they were trading with the White Mountain Dwarves now. Still strange. Then along came "Blood of Azog" that pretty much left the White Mountain Dwarves out of the loop RE- the Seven Dwarven Houses.

Anyways, my point is that LOTRO made the White Mountain Dwarves a faction a long time before any of the other Dwarven content. So, is it really a big surprise that it's time to make that story work and make sense? Not really, IMHO.


There's another odd plot-hole I've noticed too- well, maybe. The Kambrada. If they were in the northern Orocarni / Ered Cernin, I wonder . . . were they at war with the Angmarim? Somehow, there's this Iron Road magically going from Car Bronach to Rhun, and it's very weird that it seems to stop at Jarnfast of all places. It's . . . confusing. There's a ton more world-building to do out in the northeastern parts of Middle-earth - and no, despite all appearances, I don't think we're quite finished with Angmar yet. They need to answer the question: "What's at the eastern end of the Iron Road in Rhun"? ((*pardon my lack of diacritics lol)).

I also wonder if Sauron bred Orcs in the Ered Cernin to help reclaim Mordor after the Great Plague. Since part of the Ered Cernin is likely due east of Mordor, that would make some narrative sense; they'd pour-in through Lithlad and Ered Glamhoth, start rebuilding Barad-dur, and swamp Minas Ithil from the east when its time to turn it into Minas Morgul.

There's a lot of unanswered questions - and the best I've got is simply that Ered Cernin is this huge mountain range, the biggest, going from practically Forodwaith to Far Harad. So, there's probably plenty of room for Orc-infested areas, Dwarven-claimed areas, etc., across its long history, and so on - and for Sauron to ultimately squash opposition at various points in the timeline as his power grows.

Cheers!

[Arnand_the_Fox]

There's no great mystery behind the Dwarves in Gondor. Maybe Blood of Azog created some narrative gaps / discrepancies, perhaps even a plot-hole to fill-in.

Right from the get-go, in LOTRO, there were 5 Dwarven origins: Ered Luin, Grey Mountains, Iron Hills, Erebor, and White Mountains.

Strongholds of the North and Dwarf-holds gave the next 3 main origin locations after Ered Luin.

Only one was missing: the White Mountain Dwarves.

Well no. The Ered Luin, Grey Mountains, Iron Hills, Erebor, and White Mountain, dwarves are all Longbeards. After the fall of Belegost and Nogrod at the end of the first age, the two clans that lived there joined the Longbeards in Moria. All Dwarven settlements in the western part of Middle Earth, such as in the locations listed above, are all settlements on this combined 3 clan group. The in-game dwarf origin selection is not built to mirror the seven dwarven clans. Its just various places in the west of Middle Earth your Dwarf player might've come from. All of which are Longbeard locations except the Stout-Axe origin.

In Volume III, which long predated "Blood of Azog," we encountered some White Mountain Dwarves - and apparently the Gemcutters were connected with them. There was Ond out in the Heath-fells playing a role against Isengard.

Then, somehow, with Erebor, suddenly, all the Gemcutters were Longbeards: a very odd ret-con. I suppose that means they were trading with the White Mountain Dwarves now. Still strange. Then along came "Blood of Azog" that pretty much left the White Mountain Dwarves out of the loop RE- the Seven Dwarven Houses.

Anyways, my point is that LOTRO made the White Mountain Dwarves a faction a long time before any of the other Dwarven content. So, is it really a big surprise that it's time to make that story work and make sense? Not really, IMHO.

They were never not Longbeards. The Dwarves of the White Mountains are, and always were, Longbeards. Likewise Blood of Azog didn't leave the White Mountain dwarves out since, again, they were Longbeards.

There's another odd plot-hole I've noticed too- well, maybe. The Kambrada. If they were in the northern Orocarni / Ered Cernin, I wonder . . . were they at war with the Angmarim? Somehow, there's this Iron Road magically going from Car Bronach to Rhun, and it's very weird that it seems to stop at Jarnfast of all places. It's . . . confusing. There's a ton more world-building to do out in the northeastern parts of Middle-earth - and no, despite all appearances, I don't think we're quite finished with Angmar yet. They need to answer the question: "What's at the eastern end of the Iron Road in Rhun"? ((*pardon my lack of diacritics lol)).

The Kambrada were nowhere near Angmar. So no, they weren't at war with them. The Orocarni/Ered Cernin is on the other side of the landmass from Angmar.

And the Iron Road doesn't necessarily end at Jarnfast. It likely goes down to Skald's Drop, where it contiues from there into Dorwinion, and then Rhun proper.

There's a lot of unanswered questions - and the best I've got is simply that Ered Cernin is this huge mountain range, the biggest, going from practically Forodwaith to Far Harad. So, there's probably plenty of room for Orc-infested areas, Dwarven-claimed areas, etc., across its long history, and so on - and for Sauron to ultimately squash opposition at various points in the timeline as his power grows.

The Ered Cernin goes nowhere near Harad, much less Far Harad.

[Valather89]

So I just checked the LOTRO google (terrain) map. (LINK). I hadn't visited it in a while, but as it turns out Cardolan and Swanfleet haven't been added yet, despite the fact that it will soon be half a year since we got Before the Shadow. Is there something wrong on my end (am I even clicking on the right link?) or was its development put on hold for some reason? Maybe it's normal for it to take this long and last year was the exception. Does anyone have any insight?

[Garan]

So I just checked the LOTRO google (terrain) map. (LINK). I hadn't visited it in a while, but as it turns out Cardolan and Swanfleet haven't been added yet, despite the fact that it will soon be half a year since we got Before the Shadow. Is there something wrong on my end (am I even clicking on the right link?) or was its development put on hold for some reason? Maybe it's normal for it to take this long and last year was the exception. Does anyone have any insight?

I've been busy with RL stuff that has taken precedence over updating the LotRO Google Map. It hasn't been abandoned, just delayed.

[Valather89]

I've been busy with RL stuff that has taken precedence over updating the LotRO Google Map. It hasn't been abandoned, just delayed.

Alright, thank you for answering! As I said, I didn't even know if I was checking the wrong url or something.

RL stuff or even your more "enjoyable" hobbies should of course always come first, and knowing that it hasn't been abandoned is more than enough for me! And thank you for all the work, Garan. It's an awesome task coming from a single person.

[TesalionLortus]

The fact that we have dwarves in Gondor is not wrong by any stretch, it's just that I never expected them so close. I imagined more like closer to Anfalas, West of the Paths, South of Dunland (see, that old quest that introduced Gemcutters comes into play, as for the "retcon" I think it doesn't need to be one, if the devs say White Mountains were the Gemcutters' home in exile, so this is still their home with some workshops, in a way, alongside Erebor).

But yeah, I guess we can have more dwarves in Gondor than just the first valley outpost, which might be just an outpost/tease. My only hope is the devs won't overdo. I get it. They need content. I always saw return to Gondor, no less redo of entire Gondor, as problematic. Not much that can be done for enemies or happenings - and even the old Gondor, which HAD plenty of war-like enemies and encampments and ghosts, could make you feel a little burnt out after a while. Still... I hope Gondor is Gondor. That it doesn't turn into the feeling of Gondor that we used to have (the compressed one, a little too thin at places) plus... some kickass White Mountain kingdom of the dwarves almost the size of actual Gondor in all these valleys and mountains... Just have Gondor be Gondor. Is all I'm saying.



Scenario, hopefully you did plan such things for these other potential valleys and it's not just dwarves in them, but if I may suggest something regarding that first valley we saw on the Stroll...

Could you also add some smallish Gondorian villages? Some lone cottages? And such? With some background inhabitants around? Just to hint at some Gondorian habitation, that it's still part of Gondor and Lebennin?

Smaller settlements or scattered houses, doesn't even need to be as big as Lancrath from Blackroot Vale.


Like here, in these empty woods around the stone storage:




Or here, right before the dwarven bridge:




Who knows, not sure how the terrain around looks like, but perhaps you may even have some Gondorian village on a cliffside Swanfleet style.

I know, time time time. But please, just don't make these new spaces empty wildlands with no Gondor presence around and just dwarves. These should be parts of Lebennin in their full right, not some large empty provinces/valleys taken over by dorfs :P

[Phantion]

The Ered Cernin goes nowhere near Harad, much less Far Harad.

According to what source? It seems to me it isn't included on any Tolkien map of Middle-earth - and so, folks have to guess at it.

For my "head canon," while I have my own views about the RoP series, I do think Amazon's map makes some sense to me: https://rop-map.com/

You'll notice the Orocarni starts to the northeast of the inland Sea of Rhun then goes all the way down - and then, in the faded ink areas, just keeps going south of Umbar.

It also makes some geographic sense to me that Mordor doesn't have an "open rear door" but rather a valley between its open lands and the Orocarni. Easier to control. Anyways, folks can sure have their own ideas of what's on the "un-mapped" parts of Middle-earth. Your head-canon doesn't decide mine; nor does mine decide yours.

It'll be interesting to see what LOTRO does with it. To my mind, it's an easy "impassable border" for the eastern lands going from north to south. As a long mountain range, it could vary with a lot of different biomes, etc., while serving as a useful "buffer" to keep things contained to Middle-earth. It could start more iron-like in the part that's closest to the Iron Hills then gradually get more "Mordor-esque" as it gets parallel to Mordor's eastern reaches and then get more "desert-like" or even tropical as it keeps going further south, if they decided to take that route. It's also an easy way to get-in the homes of the 4 Dwarven Houses - the 2 in the northeast and the 2 in the southeast of Middle-earth. They could do various things with those.

As far as LOTRO goes, https://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Ered_Cernin We're only told they are "east of Rhun" but not much else - and then there's the whole concept of, "Where's the southeast? The South or the East? Does it count as both?" and so forth.

There's also this map - https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/lo...20180404014231

But that's a very long time ago before the world changed a lot.

There's this map from this link - https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Oroc...te_note-SMA4-2

https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Oroc...te_note-SMA4-2

But that's part of Tolkien's drafting process - not a consistent idea - and plus, the battles between the Valar and Morgoth changed a ton of geography. Maybe the Orocarni is the northeastern mountain range and the "Yellow Mountains" are the southeastern - but . . . it's very hard to pick how that maps onto Third Age Middle-earth's geography. The Misty Mountains aren't even there on that map.

Anyways, my point still stands. It's nebulous - given how many alterations happen to Middle-earth's geography from the Years of the Trees through the late Third Age. The devs will have to, based on the scant info we've got, arrive at their own interpretations of the Ered Cernin and so on. Look, I'm find if "Yellow Mountains" = the name of the mountains far to the east of Umbar and Far Harad. That's hairsplitting over naming. But I do think it'll make sense for Middle-earth to pretty much have those borderlands that mark the absolute bounds of Middle-earth as Middle-earth.


Cheers!

[k40rne]

Well no. The Ered Luin, Grey Mountains, Iron Hills, Erebor, and White Mountain, dwarves are all Longbeards. After the fall of Belegost and Nogrod at the end of the first age, the two clans that lived there joined the Longbeards in Moria. All Dwarven settlements in the western part of Middle Earth, such as in the locations listed above, are all settlements on this combined 3 clan group. The in-game dwarf origin selection is not built to mirror the seven dwarven clans. Its just various places in the west of Middle Earth your Dwarf player might've come from. All of which are Longbeard locations except the Stout-Axe origin

This all makes sense except the fact there were 7 rings made for 7 dwarven lords (presumably one for each existing clan); are you saying that 3 of them were made for Longbeards lords? Also, what about the Dourhands? where do they fit into this; or are they just a renegade Longbeard splinter group?

[Arnand_the_Fox]

This all makes sense except the fact there were 7 rings made for 7 dwarven lords (presumably one for each existing clan); are you saying that 3 of them were made for Longbeards lords? Also, what about the Dourhands? where do they fit into this; or are they just a renegade Longbeard splinter group?

Just because the Narfanghoth(Firebeards), and Landorrim(Broadbeams), went to live with the Longbeards in Moria at the end of the First Era doesn't mean they don't retain their own lineages/kings.

We see the kings of both, Agni the Wild(Landorrim), and Bloodwhisker(Narfanghoth), in Blood of Azog. Both likely became protectorate kingdoms under the larger Longbeard kingdom. Once the Stout Axes figure out who is the next leader of thier clan they will likely become the same given how they've basically moved in with the Longbeards in Erebor.

As for the Dourhands, they are likely a splinter group of either Longbeards, Narfanghoth, or Landorrim. Probably the latter two given their origins seemingly being in the Blue Mountains.

According to what source? It seems to me it isn't included on any Tolkien map of Middle-earth - and so, folks have to guess at it.

The map of Arda which has long been the go to map for Middle Earth geography for decades at this point. And which the RoP map is based off of, thoug heavily edits down because RoP can't get anything right/doesn't want to spent the money to license.

[Phantion]

Just because the Narfanghoth(Firebeards), and Landorrim(Broadbeams), went to live with the Longbeards in Moria at the end of the First Era doesn't mean they don't retain their own lineages/kings.

We see the kings of both, Agni the Wild(Landorrim), and Bloodwhisker(Narfanghoth), in Blood of Azog. Both likely became protectorate kingdoms under the larger Longbeard kingdom. Once the Stout Axes figure out who is the next leader of thier clan they will likely become the same given how they've basically moved in with the Longbeards in Erebor.

As for the Dourhands, they are likely a splinter group of either Longbeards, Narfanghoth, or Landorrim. Probably the latter two given their origins seemingly being in the Blue Mountains.


The map of Arda which has long been the go to map for Middle Earth geography for decades at this point. And which the RoP map is based off of, thoug heavily edits down because RoP can't get anything right/doesn't want to spent the money to license.

Thank you for this

I admit that the Amazon map probably brought the Orocarni closer and made them go further south. All of that said, the point is moot due to SSG's under-scaling of Middle-earth. As with Ered Mithrin and Gorgoroth, they'll likely need to have the mountains bigger and extend longer to keep to the scale of the map they're building. It'll automatically involve distortions since it condenses thousands of leagues into some hours of travel on a warsteed. As with the Iron Hills, the mountains will probably end up somewhat closer to the western lands to be able to reach them in the first place in the game, especially since the Atlas map might be "off limits."

There are some distortions with the Atlas map though - mainly with Beleriand. If Fonstad drew up the map rather than Tolkien, then she got that part wrong with the "Lands under the Wave." Beleriand corresponds wiith Ered Luin and not with Gondor / Andrast. So, the lands under the wave should start around southern Harlindon / where the Brandywine enters the sea and extend north from there.

Also, are we to assume that the Yellow Mts. got drowned? I guess my caution is: just because the map says something doesn't mean it's so. It depends on which of Tolkien's writings it's based on and where Tolkien was in his drafts - and whether that's consistent or not where things end up in the Third Age.

Cheers!

[Arnand_the_Fox]

Thank you for this

I admit that the Amazon map probably brought the Orocarni closer and made them go further south. All of that said, the point is moot due to SSG's under-scaling of Middle-earth. As with Ered Mithrin and Gorgoroth, they'll likely need to have the mountains bigger and extend longer to keep to the scale of the map they're building. It'll automatically involve distortions since it condenses thousands of leagues into some hours of travel on a warsteed. As with the Iron Hills, the mountains will probably end up somewhat closer to the western lands to be able to reach them in the first place in the game, especially since the Atlas map might be "off limits."

There are some distortions with the Atlas map though - mainly with Beleriand. If Fonstad drew up the map rather than Tolkien, then she got that part wrong with the "Lands under the Wave." Beleriand corresponds wiith Ered Luin and not with Gondor / Andrast. So, the lands under the wave should start around southern Harlindon / where the Brandywine enters the sea and extend north from there.

Also, are we to assume that the Yellow Mts. got drowned? I guess my caution is: just because the map says something doesn't mean it's so. It depends on which of Tolkien's writings it's based on and where Tolkien was in his drafts - and whether that's consistent or not where things end up in the Third Age.

Cheers!

The Yellow Mountains are generally placed in the southern part of the Dark Lands, which were seemingly removed from Middle Earth when Iluvatar made the world round instead of flat.

It said when the changing of the world happened the empty lands were cast back, and new lands(The Americas) were made. Christopher Tolken has said he interpreted this as his father meaning the lands of the Sun, and the Dark Lands, got removed from the world since there was no known inhabitants of those lands. So the Yellow Mountains got poofed from the world.

And your wrong about there being an error with Beleriand. Beleriand proper was west of the Blue Mountains yes, as it is shown in that map. However all the maps of Beleraind show the landmass continuing to the south beyond the Beleriand map proper, with the coast being far more west then the current coast of Middle Earth goes. Most maps I've seen take this as lands south of Beleriand also sunk during the collapse, to form the current coasts we have now, since the two coasts simply don't match up otherwise. This is also based on some crude skteches Tolken made that show the coastline down to Gondor being more rounded(with the Andrast peninsula being absent), and sticking out further, in the early days.